[From nobody Mon Jan 14 08:17:42 2013 X-Mozilla-Status: 0001 Message-ID: <37CCBA7E.5DAC@pacbell.net> Date: Tue, 31 Aug 1999 22:32:46 -0700 From: Jim Holland <pghpcc@pacbell.net> X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01 (Win16; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: kjosephson@sprintmail.com CC: GaltFD@compuserve.com, dearmond@sfu.ca, raymond@nauticom.net, twg@pulsenet.com, dale@luther.bc.ca, Dale_Laird@luther.cbbs.org, szilagyi@netreach.net, Charlesebrown@webtv.net, hammond@idea4u.com, paulwey@freecongress.org, Lotilive@aol.com, shadow@dementia.org, mrb190@pop.pitt.edu, bwells@nauticom.net, fjsmd@mindspring.com Subject: Re: Drake Article Errors References: <199908311255_MC2-830D-C5DE@compuserve.com> <37CBBC81.1B01@sprintmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Greetings! First off, the o-n-l-y PCCs to cost $28,000 were the 1700-1799 series cars; others were considerably less. While the article does not specifically say that the current PCCs date from 1936, they certainly imply that. In fact, the 4000s date from the early 80s with rather insignificant parts from 1949 models. Indeed, all the cars that ({[PAT]}) thought they were going to overhaul were outfitted with B-3 trucks including 1730 which originally had Clark B-2B trucks. The trucks had been the one part that used much of the original material from the original 17s but with all these new trucks, it is probable that the 4000s had new rather than rebuilt trucks. While the current line might be only 1.4 miles and while elsewhere the article did state that the line went to Washington, the article(s) was (were) too disjointed to give the overall impression that this was once a thirty-mile long line -- ok, 29 miles! It is highly *doubtful* that PCCs got past Drake loop (which never existed until late 1953) until 1940 and then the only PCCs that came out here were probably just a couple rush hour trippers to Canonsburg. (The situation was similar on the Charleroi line. PCC cars might have been operated as rush hour trippers from or to West Library or Riverview but it is doubtful that this happened before 1940.) And as railfans we know that is was January 1946 when 1613 was outfitted for Washington interurban service followed by 1614 within six months. By 1948, there were a total of 12 1600s converted for interurban service which would allow base service to be totally PCC. So the idea of PCC service on the Washington line past Drake in 1936 is bogus. There was very limited PCC service on the Washington and Charleroi interurbans probably from 1940 until 1946-48; starting in 1949 PCC service was the norm. And to quote an operator who says that PCC cars are more fun *"because they catch fire"* - what doesn't? I know of fire engines that have caught fire! LRVs will too! Cheese Whiz! Ken -- I thought you were reserving your comments on the article as you stated at the beginning of your letter. As I re-read the article I see you did make comments. KEN GETS AN A++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ for his observations!!!!! Well done! Kenneth and Tracie Josephson wrote: > > Grade me, guys. My replies were too cynical for the list. I don't need > to make any enemies before I meet the guys... ;-) > > Art, I am cc'ing this to you so you can see first hand how the media can > give rail transit a black eye. > > Those of you in Pittsburgh who wish to get together, please call me at > the Washington Days Inn tommorrow evening. A dinner together sounds > great. > > Trolley drivers, > (Motormen, operators?) > > ... riders say goodbye to an era on Drake line > Monday, August 30, 1999 > By Jan Ackerman, Post-Gazette Staff Writer > > David Wright took the long way to work last Friday so he could savor a > nostalgic ride on the Drake trolley before it disappears from the South > Hills forever. > > Forever? Not if the line is rebuilt... > > Jeremy Beannear, 8, watches the woods pass by while riding the 47D > trolley. He's the son of trolley operator Shawn Beannear. (Martha Rial, > Post-Gazette) > > Wright, 52, of South Fayette, is a trolley buff. Soon he will only be > able to see Pittsburgh's old trolleys on display at local museums. > > Or in that building downtown with the cosmetically restored 1700. Or in > several other states. > > "Before the South Hills Village line, we parked in the lot here [at the > Drake Loop] and rode in. It was always crowded," said Wright, who > usually commutes on the modern, more comfortable, 42S South Hills > Village light-rail vehicles. > > There aren't any crowds on the 47D Drake trolleys, which have been in > service on the 1.4-mile line since 1936. They will be going into > permanent retirement Saturday, marking the end of an era. > > Uh.....my understanding is there weren't any PCCs on the line before > 1946 or so? > > "I love these cars," said Port Authority driver Frank Satariano, who > drove the 47D on Friday. > > This is the United States. Here, we operate trolleys, not drive them! > :-) > > "The new light-rail vehicles are computerized. They can almost drive > themselves," Satariano said. > > Really? Ask the passengers in the wreck on the Mt. Lebanon line a few > years ago. > > He said driving the old trolleys is a real challenge. > > To a brain dead ape.... > > "These trolleys catch fire. The brakes go out. There's no computer to > help you on these," Satariano said. > > Huh? If they are catching fire and losing the brakes, then the only > challenge is to find competent shop workers. If some one needs a > computer to operate a PCC, then he/she shouldn't be trusted on anything > other than a tricycle with a flagman walking 300 feet in front. :-) > > The Port Authority said the trolleys, which were introduced in 1936, are > falling apart, replacement parts are hard to find and fewer than 50 > people ride them each day. > > Weren't these trolleys introduced in the 1980's using a mixture of new > parts and parts from 1949 PCCs? > > When the Newark, N.J., City Subway is phased out sometime next year, the > only trolleys of this type operating in the United States will be on San > Francisco Municipal Railway's F-Line, which travels on Market Street, > and Boston's Mattapan High-Speed Line. > > The subway is not going away, just the PCCs.... > > At 11 a.m. today , a celebration will be held at the Castle Shannon > Light Rail Station to mark the end of service by the three remaining > Drake streetcars. They are officially called the Presidents Conference > Committee trolleys. > > This week, the public is invited to kick off a week of free rides on the > 47D Drake route. The old cars, still as rickety as ever, will make their > final scheduled ride Saturday night. > > Show me a PCC that was rickety out of the factory...these cars are > essentially less than twenty years old. > > After that, there's nothing but shuttle buses for the three dozen or so > regular riders of the Drake. > > Rebuilt the Drake line and through-route it to downtown like it should > be. > > To fill the void, the Port Authority has set up a new minibus route, the > 35A South Park, that will link South Hills Village to Century III Mall, > making stops along the way at popular places such as the wave pool at > South Park. > > Will we get to see Stan, Kyle, Cartman, Kenny and Chef? :-) > > The trolleys will become museum pieces. One trolley already is enshrined > at the Senator John Heinz Pittsburgh Regional History Center and another > will be donated to South Hills Village. > > There is a difference between a 1700 and a 4000, thank you. > > There always has been a certain charm to Pittsburgh's old streetcars, > even though the car sometimes lurches, throwing its passengers forward. > It also shakes from side to side, giving riders a squeamish feeling, > like they just got off an amusement park ride. > > Though air conditioners were installed, they often didn't work too well. > > I thought only one 4000 had air. > > "They were terribly hot," said Greg Fink of Bethel Park as he rode the > Drake on Friday. "In the good old days, if you sat near the wheel well, > they would roast you." > > Though the trolleys never were as comfortable as the new, fully > air-conditioned, light-rail vehicles with upholstered seats, the old > trolleys were chock full of memories of a different era. > > It seems to me that most PCCs I rode had upholstered seats. Oh, excuse > me...they are "trolleys"...they MUST be made of cast iron and wood.... > > Satariano said he used to ride the trolley from his home in Beechview to > Downtown theaters such as the old Stanley. Sometimes after a long day in > town, he would fall asleep on the streetcar and end up in Mt. Lebanon. > > Hmmm....and let him drive, er...operate the cars now? ;-) > > He and his friends liked to "bomb" the trolley drivers with snow balls. > > "We used to torture these guys," said Satariano, who later got his > payback when he was bombed while driving a trolley. > > At least no one greased the rails on a downgrade nor place torpedoes on > the bridges like the kids in Milwaukee did. > > While parked at the Drake Loop on Friday, Satariano fished around the > empty streetcar looking for a keepsake. > > Steal the rollsign..... ;-D > > "I'd like to find an old transfer," he said, looking under one of the > old leather seats. He didn't find one. > > Leather seats? I thought only the new cars were equipped with > upholstered seats. > > The three remaining streetcars are the last vestiges of the rolling > stock that first appeared in Pittsburgh in 1936. They were among 666 > streetcars built by the St. Louis Car Co. > > NO....NO....NO....the last was 1713 and it left the property quite a > while ago. These are home-built cars. > > The first streetcar arrived in Pittsburgh on July 26, 1936. After > providing demonstration rides all over town, it became permanently > assigned to the 50 Carson Street route. > > Really? I thought the first streetcar arrived in Pittsburgh during the > 19th Century... > > Pittsburgh's trolley history > Monday, August 30, 1999 > Compiled by Johnna A. Pro, Post-Gazette Staff Writer > > Not a "pro" at compiling the fact as Mr. Becker presented them... > > Pittsburgh's trolley history dates to the late 19th century when the > state Legislature passed a law allowing "motor power companies" to > operate passenger railways by cable, electrical or other means. Since > then, the city has been at the forefront of trolley transportation. > > JUNE 1887. Pittsburgh Traction Co. constructs a cable beginning at the > foot of Fifth Avenue and running east on Shady, Penn and Highland > avenues. The distance is 5.5 miles and it opens for passengers on Sept. > 12, 1889. Cable lines are operated until 1897. > > THE LATE 1890s. The first electric line is constructed from South 13th > and Carson streets to Knoxville Borough. > > LATE 1890's? > > "It was really a hodgepodge," says Scott Becker, executive director of > the Pennsylvania Trolley Museum in Washington, near the Meadowlands. > > The trolleys are painted orange but their color fades to yellow, > prompting most people to call them yellow trolleys. They are used in > Pittsburgh until the mid-1950s, when many trolleys are phased out in > favor of buses. > > I thought they were phased out as fleet requirements dropped, leading to > an all PCC operation on a mostly intact system.... > > Over the next 12 years, Pittsburgh Railways orders 666 of the cars -- at > $28,000 a piece -- from the St. Louis Car Co. to replace the oldest > trolleys in the fleet, the high-floor trolleys and the yellow trolleys. > The PCCs were painted red and cream. > > I thought the last of the "yellow" trolleys remained in service until > 1954 or so, five years after the last St. Louis built PCC arrived. > > MARCH 1964. Allegheny County's Port Authority Transit is formed to unify > public transit services. Despite the declining trolley use, the Port > Authority inherits 283 PCC trolley cars and 219 buses. > > Only because John Dameron couldn't get his hands on the system sooner... > :-( > > 1964 to 1967. Many rail routes are converted to bus routes. > > Many? Try most... :-( > > 1968. The Port Authority is operating just 58 miles of track. > > 1981. The Port Authority decides to try to refurbish 45 PCC trolleys. > The $763,000 cost is prohibitive and only 12 are done before the program > is abandoned in 1987. > > IMO, they should have bought some from SEPTA.... > > July 3, 1985. Trolley street operations in the city cease when the > Downtown subway is opened. > > No, they just went underground.... > > AUG. 1, 1988. 36 PCC cars are removed from operation because of > deteriorated electrical wires. Twenty seven of those are retired and > used to supply parts for the ones that remained in operation. Only three > remain today. They are numbers 4004, 4408 and 4009. Each has traveled > about 2 million miles. > > 4409? A fugitive from Toronto, perhaps? ;-) -- James B. Holland PITTSBURGH RAILWAYS COMPANY (PRCo), June of 1949 -- June of 1953 To e-mail *off-list,* please click here: mailto:pghpcc@pacbell.net N.M.R.A. Life member #2190; http://www.mcs.net:80/~weyand/nmra/ ]