Sheesh, you make one little suggestion...

For the record, I'm 46 and have lived on the west coast for most of my
life.  If I had any memories of Pittsburgh, I wouldn't be bugging you
guys to write a book on it.  And if I lived in the Pittsburgh area, I'd
probably get a bed put in the PTM archives with the number of the local
pizza delivery place scribbled on it.  

I got bitten by the trolley bug in my early teens upon visiting a
trolley museum and seeing the blasted things up close for the first
time.  That led to making trips to all the local libraries and checking
out all of their trolley books.  So I grew up reading mostly about
Chicago area traction as the CERA had done a wonderful job of publishing
books on the various systems.  Thru Railroad Magazine, I learned that
Pittsburgh was one of the very few cities that still had trolleys and a
couple of inclines.  When I got a job and was able to afford to buy
books, I began studying the trolley systems of other cities.  Since
nothing had ever been published about Pittsburgh, I never thought much
about you guys.  Figured that it was just another run of the mill
non-descript system.  It was the TGM South Hills video that sparked my
interest, but again, there was no information available on Pittsburgh.
It wasn't until I joined this list that I learned anything about the
system.  And the more that I've learned, the more that I've wondered why
this interesting system has never been documented outside of the PTM
archives.  You're right about the lack of interest in a PR roster
outside of the Pittsburgh area, but I think that is because no one has
promoted the idea that PR had anything of interest on a national level.
It seems criminal that the definitive PR work is a 32 page reprint of a
couple of magazine articles (although it is an excellent book).  So
that's why I'll keep pestering you guys to publish something, anything
on the Pittsburgh Railways system.

Thank you for your attention.  You may now return to your regularly
scheduled discussions.

Charlie

Charlesebrown@webtv.net



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There has been a lot published over the years but not in great detail. 
Pittsburgh Railways data beginning in 1902 fits on two pages ...
essentially cars starting with open cars 3000-3060.  Most cars were
delivered in fairly large blocks except for experimental cars 2100-2101,
3551, 3555, 3556, the six double deck cars 6000 and 6001-6005, and the
three experimentals from the late 1920s (6000, 6001, and 6002).  When I
say large blocks ... 25 to 100 depending on the financial resources that
year.  

What takes a lot of space are those pre consolidation cars absorbed by
Pittsburgh Railways, because there was little rationale to how they were
renumbered ... we're talking most cars under 3000.  
If you start asking for modifications, that too takes a lot of space to
explain ... pages and pages just for the low floor cars.  I could
probably write a page of data on variants for each of the early
low-floor subclasses, i.e. 4200, 4250, 4300, 5350, 4700, 4800, 4825,
4865 and so forth.  The more I work at filing car drawings (several
thousand of them), the more I learn about what Pittsburgh was doing to
modify cars.  

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Charlie Brown asked about a market for the 78 page roster.  As a
commercially published venture, there is no market.  As a museum
published product, costs could be held down only because the staff isn't
charging for their time and they are wasting time on something that
won't earn money for the museum.    

Charlie, lets play the how old do I have to be to remember game.  Let's
assume you need to be 15 years old to understand any impact.  (I know
there is considerable variability ... I know a man with very vivid
memories of World War II from age 3 but he was being carried across
Germany on his mother's back listening to the bombs going off.  And
there are people at age 50 who don't even know that the President is
named Bush.  But I think age 15 is a fair age of awareness.  OK, lets
try it.

The Great Depression?  The bottom of the economic slaughter was 1932. 
Age 85 today.

VJ Day in 1945?        Age 72

To be a veteran of World War II?  Ages 74 and upward.  Highest ranking
officers would be 115 today.

To have served in the Korean "Peace Action"?  At least age 65

The Last Low Floor car running on the streets of Pittsburgh?     age 64

The last high floor car in revenue passenger service in Pittsburgh?  
age 78

The wholesale transition from mainline steam to first generation
diesels?  Ages 60 to 73.

The collapse of the steel industry in Pittsburgh (it was 1982)?  Age
34.  To a 20 year old today, this is as contemporary as Tyrannosaurus
Rex.  Think of this, we are just about to enter the third generation
beyond the end of this major steel center.  

The assassination of John Kennedy?  Age 52.    Note that the Vietnam
veterans are now reaching retirement age.

The end of East End streetcar service in Pittsburgh?  Age 49.  

And now, who controls the disposable income in this country?  Any
advertiser will tell you its the teenagers.  As old folks, we are trying
to figure out how to reduce the collections, not buy more.
Most of us over 60 have some decent Pittsburgh roster.    

Because a book of roster information has such a very limited appeal
(there is absolutely no way you can package it for the general public),
I would suggest that the only practical way would be to xerox the 78
page roster at PTM along with a xerox of an 8x10 print for each car
class   ... and sell the pages for about $25 to $35 (including a
donation to the museum) in advance. If we printed 100 sets, it would be
years before all of them would be gone.  There may be some room as a
non-profit venture but never commercially because the IRS will not allow
publishers to deduct printing costs before books are sold or burnt. 
I've lost touch with printing costs, but I imagine we're talking
$150,000 to do a good hard bound 256 page book these days and whatever
that is should be 20 to 40% of the jacket price if you want to stay in
business.  Railroad books seldom if ever had the normal trade profit
margins built in even in the days when we could make money in that
business.   

And there might be a few people who would also be willing to spend $25
for a copy of the paint book though I'll be damned if I know why ...
maybe to say they have it.   

Now, who wants to come to Arden and spend several days bent over a xerox
machine in exchange for his free copy?  My mind is sufficiently
recovered to be my old s.o.b. self, but my knees are not going to be
bending over a copier for several months.  Assuming that Ed Lybarger
things this is OK, maybe in the summer I can make copies for those who
want them.    

(Funny, I wanted to go to church tomorrow ... Easter does have some
appeal ... until I sat in a restaurant tonight and found I couldn't make
the new knees comfortable no matter where I put them.  Now I know they
won't fit in a pew for a few weeks.)

Now that I've dumped a nest of ants on your picnic, I'm open to other
thoughts.  After all, I am part of the library staff at PTM and I am
willing to cooperate to whatever degree my body, mind, and HL agrees
with.  I'm simply trying to keep this in a rational perspective.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Maybe in the next few weeks, when I have more leg strength, I could type
up a skeleton roster.  The only convenient way for me to do it would in
in Excel 98 and most of you have no way to open that attachment.    

Fred Schneider  





Harold Geissenheimer wrote:
> 
> Greetings to Fred and each of you.
> 
> I would suspect a simple list from, say, 1935 with minimum detail:
> 
> Class of car             Manufacturer    DE or SE    Type of roof     Door locations
> Floor
> 
> Interurban cars
> 
> #------ to --------  etc
> 
> City cars
> 
> #------ to ---------etc
> 
> Was this ever published in a book or magazine?
> 
> Thanks to each o you for your help.
> 
> Harold Geissenheimer
> 
> "Fred W. Schneider III" wrote:
> 
> > I have no copier at home nor am I inclined to xerox hundreds of pages of
> > information. What specificially does he want ... very simple numbers,
> > year, date, type, or something specific.
> > My specific problem is that I am unable to haul tubs of paper around yet
> > on the new knees.
> >
> > Harold Geissenheimer wrote:
> > >
> > > Greetings to our group
> > >
> > > Does any one have an answer to Jim Beeler (of Chicago) in his question
> > > about a pre-pcc Pgh roster?
> > >
> > > Thanks for your help.
> > >
> > > Harold Geissenheimer
> > >
> > > -- Attached file included as plaintext by Listar --
> > >
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> > > From: DTIRR@aol.com
> > > Message-ID: <87.9b3ae29.2809ca58@aol.com>
> > > Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2001 11:44:24 EDT
> > > Subject: Pittsburgh Rwy Cars
> > > To: transitmgr@worldnet.att.net
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> > >
> > > Harold
> > >
> > > Do you know any source for a roster of Pittsburgh Rwy pre-PCC cars?
> > >
> > > I was up in Milwuakee yesterday and they still have some fishbowls in service.
> > >
> > > Jim





