Enjoyed your overview, Harold. Well said. My father used to tell me stories his father related about the Butler/Harmony routes that headed North out of the Etna and the East Street Valley areas. There was a mile or two of rail and a lot of prw on those routes. I believe freight service used the F1-9 box motors to ferry produce from Butler to Pittsburgh's Strip District, and the Exposition Hall located.near the base of the old Point Bridge. Bob S. -- Attached file included as plaintext by Listar -- Received: from smtpin-101-7.bryant.webtv.net (209.240.198.41) by storefull-612.iap.bryant.webtv.net with WTV-SMTP; Sun, 20 May 2001 14:40:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: by smtpin-101-7.bryant.webtv.net (WebTV_Postfix+sws) id AE4D410A; Sun, 20 May 2001 14:40:45 -0700 (PDT) Delivered-To: saturnv@webtv.net Received: from meredith.dementia.org (MEREDITH.DEMENTIA.ORG [128.2.120.216]) by smtpin-101-7.bryant.webtv.net (WebTV_Postfix+sws) with ESMTP id BC57911F; Sun, 20 May 2001 14:40:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from meredith.dementia.org (meredith.dementia.org [128.2.120.216]) by meredith.dementia.org (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id f4KLe9Q27445; Sun, 20 May 2001 17:40:09 -0400 Received: with LISTAR (v1.0.0; list pittsburgh-railways); Sun, 20 May 2001 17:40:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mtiwmhc26.worldnet.att.net (mtiwmhc26.worldnet.att.net [204.127.131.51]) by meredith.dementia.org (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id f4KLe8Q27439 for ; Sun, 20 May 2001 17:40:09 -0400 Received: from worldnet.att.net ([12.79.56.180]) by mtiwmhc26.worldnet.att.net (InterMail vM.4.01.03.16 201-229-121-116-20010115) with ESMTP id <20010520214007.XKHV2154.mtiwmhc26.worldnet.att.net@worldnet.att.net> for ; Sun, 20 May 2001 21:40:07 +0000 Message-ID: <3B083942.69BC4DB7@worldnet.att.net> Date: Sun, 20 May 2001 17:38:10 -0400 From: Harold Geissenheimer X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.74 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "pittsburgh-railways@dementia.org" Subject: [PRCo] Pgh transit characteristics Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-listar-version: Listar v1.0.0 Sender: pittsburgh-railways-bounce@lists.dementia.org Errors-To: pittsburgh-railways-bounce@lists.dementia.org X-original-sender: transitmgr@worldnet.att.net Precedence: bulk Reply-To: pittsburgh-railways@dementia.org List-help: List-unsubscribe: List-software: Listar version 1.0.0 X-List-ID: List-subscribe: List-owner: List-post: X-list: pittsburgh-railways Greetings to all Recent discussions about the Etna & Millville trolleys running long distances at high speed highlight one of the characteristics of transit (and commuter rail) in Allegheny County. Its the terrain! River valleys, hills, bridges and tunnels. This reduces ridership potential. West end cars to McKees Rocks, etc. had this on Carson Street. South Hills cars had this thru the Mt Wasington tunnel. The LRT still has it. 38 Mt Lebanon and 39 Brookline had this up the West Liberty Ave valley. The interurbans had this on the hillside above Saw Mill Run Blvd. Second Ave cars had this along the Mon. Even Liberty/Penn cars thru the strip and then out thru Lawrenceville had it (tho there was a little development between the lines and the river). Lines climbing the hills like Troy Hill, Fineview, etc had it. Todays bus lines still have it. Highway builders have it. Commuter rail had it. Trains on both sides of the Allegheny had the river and hillside as neighbors. The same on the Ohio and the Mon. Only the PRR to the east cut thru the city. Its PITTSBURGH! A city of rivers, valleys, hills and resultant light population density. It made trolleys, buses and trains more expensive to run and reduced ridership. Thats why PRC had such long headways when cities like Philadelphia or Cleveland ran very frquently. The only answer is move if you cant cope. Its more expensive to provide service in Pittsburgh. Always was and still is. Thats why the 88 and 82 were heavy routes. Thats why 5th & Forbes were always good. And the river valley routes poor. But if you live in Etna its the only way to go. The terrain made PRC lines interesting but also costly. PRC did an excellent job in reaching these communities when roads were limited. Etna and Millvale provided the downtown connections for the Harmony and Butler Short Line cars using dual power equipment. I always liked the terrain of Allegheny County. It made life interesting compared to the endless flat streets of Chicago. But trolleys, buses and trains find it more difficult and expensive. Oh well. Cant have every thing. Harold Geissenheimer