Thanks Jim and Ed! This clears up alot.

-- "Holland Electric Rwy. Op. H.E.R.O. -- Import SPTC 1.48 Models // James B. Holland" <PRCoPCC@P-R-Co.com> wrote:
Mark McGuire wrote:

>I have been looking over a few pix and slides and noticed the pantographs on both the 1700s and 4000s.       In the beginning (the LRV era) the 1700s seemed to have pantographs in the front with trolley poles still on the back for not so obvious reasons (we'll get to that later).
>
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Ed's answers right on  --  a little embellishment here!
.
The transition from pole to pan required the pans be placed up front  
--  rather difficult to run  ALL  trolleypoles one day then  ALL  
pantographs the next day  --  takes time to get all the pans installed. 
      Pans could be installed before the overhead was ready to use pans 
and thus the trolley poles need to be retained.       If any problems 
persist in the use of pans the poles are still on the back end and can 
be used.
.
.

>  I noticed that in the later years to last days of PCC cars, the 4000s seemed to have 2 pantographs attached, one on the front, and one on the rear.        Was there a reason for 2 pantographs?
>
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The front pan on cars with two pans was a Sleet Cutter for clearing the 
overhead    ----    only a couple // few cars so equipped.       See 
more below.
.
.

>  Also noticed a few cars (both 1700s and 4000s) with pantograph only on the rear.        Did PAT keep the pantographs on the front of the 1700s until they were decommissioned?.        When did they add them to the rear?
>
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Pans were moved to the rear once the transition from pole to pan was 
completed.       This includes equipping All vehicles with pans and 
converting All overhead.       More below.
.
.

>  Now getting back to my earlier statement.  I have a few photos and slides from 1982-84.        Why did they use trolley poles when pantographs were installed?
>
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Again, transition period.       Takes time to get pans installed on all 
vehicles and the overhead converted for pan usage so The Only Place to 
put the pan is in the front since the trolley pole is still needed.
.
.

>First car is signed 47L West Library via Overbrook and has 2 pantographs. Second chartered car only has one pantograph on the rear.   Don't know the exact year but has to be 1993 or earlier. Why did some cars only have one pantograph while others had 2? And why weren't the pantographs used in the 1982 era and not the poles?    I used to think that poles were used on the Overbrook cars but this photo shoots that theory down. This is all very confusing to me.  If anyone can clear this up, I'd appreciate it.
>
.
Just a couple cars equipped with 2 pans  <<Officially>>    ----    front 
pan is sleet cutter.       Anudder  Possibility    ----    ALL  cars 
equipped with front pans;  new pans installed on the rear were  
<<possibly>>  different style  --  vaguely remember that the pans in the 
rear were much more aesthetically pleasing.       I--F    this is true  
(different style of pan installed on the rear as opposed to moving front 
pan to the rear)  it  Is   <<Possible>>   that the new pan is installed 
without the front pan being removed  <<immediately>>    ----    the 
unused pan could be removed at some other time!
.
Ed mentioned that the front pans tore down the wires // snagged on the 
overhead all the time.       This was more of a teething problem with 
pans than location problem.       ({[pat]})   originally modified the 
existing overhead for pan usage by installing a spacer at hangers to 
drop the overhead so the pan would clear and not snag on the hanger // 
span.       Not much of a problem on tangents but on curves the hanger 
is constructed so that the span is in the same plane // at the same 
level as the span to prevent tilting the hanger sideways from pull from 
the overhead.       Adding a spacer on such a hanger introduces sideways 
pull on curves and  <<possible>>  problems for pans.
.
Rear Installation of pan is preferable as the operator has more time to 
stop the vehicle should bad overhead be spotted  --  on equipment that 
has automatic pan drop, then the operator can drop the pan and hopefully 
coast through the bad overhead.       Front pan location works just as 
well as rear pan location    ----    transition period when trying 
anything new can be and apparently was problematic!
.
I  Like  Ike  --  AND  PCCs  --  AND  Trolley Poles.       Purely  A  
Personal  Preference    ----    NOT  a statement of  Merit // 
Demerit!!        PRCo  used  Trolley Poles  THUS  I  Like  Trolley  
Poles  --  like the way they track on the overhead.
.
A  GOOD   Even    V--E--R--Y    Good  Case can be made for usage of 
Trolley Poles and Usage of Pantographs    ----    Both  have a good 
listing of Positives and Negatives  --  ImPerfect World so there are 
negatives to everything and anything.
.
Pans can suck up more juice  --  fine for PRR but Not Needed for   
LIGHT   Rail    ----    North Shore Interurban between Milwaukee and 
Chicago ran two 4-section articulated Interurbans with 4 trolley poles  
--  2 for each direction.       These sucked up adequate amounts of 
juice   AND   worked at speeds of 70-, 80-, and 90-MPH  --  Liner tested 
at well over 100-mph     WITH    TROLLEY    POLES!!!!!!!       ALL   NS  
equipment had trolleypoles and had the potential to be operating at 
these speeds  DAILY!!!
.
Pantographs don't dewire  --  BALONEY!!!       Maybe not in the 
conventional sense of trolleypoles but a broken hanger on a curve can 
damage a pan, cause dewirement of same since the overhead is out of 
alignment and the dewirement will More Than Likely rip the pan to shreds 
as it catches on a span which totally disables the vehicle which  MUST  
be towed to the yard.       Trolley Pole dewires  --  put it back on the 
overhead!!!!!!!       Pole kinks // bends  --  put it back on the 
overhead  --  witness the grossly bent pole on the North Side TGM video 
and the car is still operating!       Pole breaks in two  --  disabled 
vehicle until the pole is changed on the spot and the vehicle continues 
under its own power.       Broken hanger and trolley pole Probably Will 
Not Even Dewire  --  NOT  true with pan.
.
Overhead for Pantograph   MUST  be in  Much  Better  Condition than 
overhead for Trolley Pole  --  because of moving joints // elbows much 
energy is lost and pans are slow to respond to variations in the 
overhead  --  will bounce if wire moves higher too fast and will resist 
downward movement if wire moves down too fast.       One hanger missing 
on a curve in overhead strung for pan only can be  Disaster!
.
.
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Jim__Holland