<html><head></head><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; "><div>Times change Herb. My grandmother and grandfather moved to an address on Veterans Street after they were married. That is a north-south street on the top of the hill, to the east side of Perrysville Avenue and to the north of Charles Street. My mother always remembered the Veterans Street home. </div><div><br></div><div>I have no idea when my grandparents moved to Delaware Avenue at the corner of Chemung Street out by Riverview Park (a block up the hill from Perrysville Avenue) but judging from pictures of my mother and relatives, I would suggest early 1920s. At that time, my Grandpap was living the American dream. He was a self-employed electrical contractor in a growing city. His jobs were usually large buildings, not houses. He had a wife and two kids. He earned enough to put two kids into college. And we lived among similar people so that tells you what the homes along Perrysville Avenue from Charles Street to the city line were line in the 1920s, 1930s, 1940s. </div><div><br></div><div>Even though my grandmother moved out in 1962 and died two years later, over the years I have continued to drive up that way to see how the neighborhood has changed.</div><div><br></div><div>If you look at Google Maps or Bing Maps satellite views, you will see that more than half the homes on Veteran Street have become vacant lots. Obviously, in later years the people who bought them didn't have the money to maintain them and one by one they were demolished.</div><div><br></div><div>In the 1950s I recall being asked by Grandma to walk down to a hardware store at Perrysville and Charles and buy a toilet plunger for her. That was still a pretty decent neighborhood shopping area. Still had an corner food store operated by The Great Atlantic and Pacific Tea Company. But obviously, as you said Herb, it has changed. </div><div><br></div><div>After World War II, there were a few empty lots on Perrysville Avenue beyond Riverview Park that were filled in with new homes. </div><div>Last time I looked, the complexion has changed … well to do down to poor. You thought I was going to say white to black, didn't you? Well, this week we received a phone call telling us we are getting the third interracial marriage in this family. (Both of them have doctorate degrees.) You don't throw rocks when you live in mixed families … you love your great grandkids. </div><div><br></div><div>What I think happened was best explained in a book written by an urban studies professor at Franklin & Marshall College here in Lancaster. The prof used Lancaster as his object lesson but it applies equally well in Pittsburgh or Baltimore or almost any other city. David Schuyler, in "A City Transformed, Redevelopment, Race, and Suburbanization 1940-1980 in Lancaster, Pennsylvania" explains what we did wrong. One of his significant points is that the politicians told us that the problems of urban ghettos would simply go away if we tore them down. He points out that without doing anything to change things like segregation, education, and other issues, all you do when you tear down one neighborhood is move the people to another one. In Pittsburgh, in the late 1950s, we tore down the <i>Lower Hill</i> because it was an embarrassment to have a slum right next to downtown. In doing so, we moved the slum to Homewood, Braddock, Wilkinsburg, Mount Oliver and Perry Hilltop. (I am not recommending Amazon; just happens they sell the book. I recommend the book.)</div><div><br></div><div><a href="http://www.amazon.com/City-Transformed-Redevelopment-Suburbanization-Pennsylvania/dp/B008G4VGQE/ref=sr_1_2?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1369950323&sr=1-2&keywords=author%3A+David+Schuyler">http://www.amazon.com/City-Transformed-Redevelopment-Suburbanization-Pennsylvania/dp/B008G4VGQE/ref=sr_1_2?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1369950323&sr=1-2&keywords=author%3A+David+Schuyler</a></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><br><div><div>On May 30, 2013, at 4:31 PM, Herb Brannon wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote type="cite"><div>Ross Garage bus drivers usually referred to Northview Heights as Murder<br>Heights. The Devil made me say that............but it's true.<br><br><br>On Thu, May 30, 2013 at 2:36 PM, Bob Rathke <<a href="mailto:bobrathke@comcast.net">bobrathke@comcast.net</a>> wrote:<br><br><blockquote type="cite">The area northeast of the East St. Bridge was called Summer Hill - this<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">area was lightly populated, and was between City View View and Reserve<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">Townbship, but after the public housing development there in<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">1961-62, Summer Hill became known as Northview Heights.<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">----- Original Message -----<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">From: "BobDietrich" <<a href="mailto:bob.dietrich1@verizon.net">bob.dietrich1@verizon.net</a>><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">To: "Western PA Trolley discussion" <<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><a href="mailto:pittsburgh-railways@mailman.dementix.org">pittsburgh-railways@mailman.dementix.org</a>><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">Sent: Thursday, May 30, 2013 12:06:56 PM<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">Subject: Re: [PRCo] FYI-Pittsburgh Neighborhood Map<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">There is a recent history of "Allegheny City: A History of Pittsburgh's<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">North Side" available from Amazon and others. It gets into all the<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">NortSide<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">neighborhoods, how the formed and who lived there. Not much on streetcars<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">but there is a photo of Derrick's ancestor.<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">Bob<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">-----Original Message-----<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">From: <a href="mailto:pittsburgh-railways-bounces@mailman.dementix.org">pittsburgh-railways-bounces@mailman.dementix.org</a><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">[mailto:pittsburgh-railways-bounces@mailman.dementix.org] On Behalf Of<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">Fred<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">Schneider<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">Sent: Thursday, May 30, 2013 12:31 PM<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">To: Western PA Trolley discussion<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">Subject: Re: [PRCo] FYI-Pittsburgh Neighborhood Map<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">Destination 21 Fineview was route 125 Nunnery Hill. You are correct.<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">This line was built in 1908 and later.<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">The observatory that Derrick's ancestor created on top of the hill was part<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">of the Western University of Pennsylvania that moved to Oakland and was<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">renamed University of Pittsburgh. I think the university move took place<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">just after the City of Allegheny became part of Pittsburgh. So that would<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">probably be 1910 or earlier. Look it up in Wikipedia.<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">Destination 8 Perrysville was route 106 Perrysville Avenue. It began in<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">December 1887 or February 1888 (I have two conflicting dates) from North<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">Avenue over Federal Street as far as the Perrysville Plank Road under the<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">name Observatory Hill Passenger Railway using underground power<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">distribution<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">(conduit). In 1889 it became part of the Federal Street and Pleasant<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">Valley Railway.<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">By 1902 it was running as far as the East Street Extension.<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">The observatory appears off Observatory Ave east of Perrysville on plate 5.<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">Plate 4 may also be useful.<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><a href="http://digital.library.pitt.edu/maps/90v01ind.html">http://digital.library.pitt.edu/maps/90v01ind.html</a><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><a href="http://images.library.pitt.edu/cgi-bin/i/image/image-idx?view=entry;cc=maps">http://images.library.pitt.edu/cgi-bin/i/image/image-idx?view=entry;cc=maps</a><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">;<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">entryid=x-90v01p05<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">I think this clearly demonstrates, gentlemen, that what we are now calling<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">Fineview and which was called Nunnery Hill after it became part of<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">Pittsburgh, was Observatory Hill when it was the City of Allegheny.<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">Eventually another observatory was erected on the northeast side of<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">Riverview Park . I think it is Observatory Street off Perrysville Avenue .<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">it is near the north end of Watson Blvd. That would account for people<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">not<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">knowing where the original Observatory Hill Passenger Railway ran.<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">On May 30, 2013, at 8:42 AM, Bob Rathke wrote:<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">My grandparents always referred to Fineview as Nunn ery Hill.<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">----- Original Message -----<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">From: "Fred Schneider" <<a href="mailto:fwschneider@comcast.net">fwschneider@comcast.net</a>><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">To: "Western PA Trolley discussion"<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><<a href="mailto:pittsburgh-railways@mailman.dementix.org">pittsburgh-railways@mailman.dementix.org</a>><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">Sent: Wednesday, May 29, 2013 11:36:38 AM<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">Subject: Re: [PRCo] FYI-Pittsburgh Neighborhood Map<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">I have a problem with the south side. Mt. Oliver is an independent<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">borough but the map shows it as part of the city. It is that area<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">surrounded by Knoxville, Carrick, Beltzhoover (not named), Arlington,<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">Allentown, and the slopes.<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">East End? The Lower Hill District used to be considered separate from<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">the Hill District. Highland Park is a city park. Should that not be<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">considered Highland. Brushton is missing.<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">I have a feeling in my gut that neighborhoods are being moved because we<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">have no memory of where they were. Have we forgotten places like Glenwood?<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">Do Lincoln or Larimer actually touch Shadyside? Should not Homewood touch<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">S'Liberty?<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">In the northside? As we redeveloped it, we put new names on an old<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">city.<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">The entire north side was the City of Allegheny until the City of<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">Pittsburgh<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">orchestrated a takeover in nineteen aught and seven. Now we have created<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">areas called West Allegheny, Allegheny Center and East Allegheny and North<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">Shore? Huh? I though they were just the Northside? And how did<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">Observatory Hill get moved all the way out to the city boundary? Seems to<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">me the old Observatory run by Mr. Brashaer at the college was in the<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">Fineview District????? That area they are calling Observatory Hill<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">includes what we would have called Riverview Park and even far beyond that.<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">But we have the same problem in a lot of cities. Here in Lancaster<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">County there were three villages on route 23 northeast of Lancaster:<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">Leacock, Leola and Bareville in order as you go northeast. Today no one<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">seems to know where they were and we have moved them and overlapped them<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">and<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">in some cases you will find businesses in one village named after a town<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">five miles away. We don't remember.<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">Try this map<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><a href="http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/7/76/Pittsburgh_Pennsylvania_">http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/7/76/Pittsburgh_Pennsylvania_</a><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">neighborhoods_fade.svg<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">On May 28, 2013, at 10:52 PM, Herb Brannon wrote:<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">Can anyone remember the East End neighborhood which is not listed on<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">this map?<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">On Tue, May 28, 2013 at 10:49 PM, Herb Brannon <<a href="mailto:hrbran@cavtel.net">hrbran@cavtel.net</a>><br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">wrote:<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">The last post made mention of a district of Pittsburgh called the<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">Flats, actually named South Side Flats. This is in opposition to<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">another neighborhood named South Side Slopes.<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">I have attached a map of Pittsburgh neighborhoods since some areas<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">now have new names and some areas which never had names now do have<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">names.<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">--<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">Herb Brannon<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">Back In The Burgh !<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">GO PENS !<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">--<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">Herb Brannon<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">Back In The Burgh !<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">GO PENS !<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote 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href="mailto:Pittsburgh-railways@mailman.dementix.org">Pittsburgh-railways@mailman.dementix.org</a><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><a href="https://mailman.dementix.org/mailman/listinfo/pittsburgh-railways">https://mailman.dementix.org/mailman/listinfo/pittsburgh-railways</a><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">-------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">scrubbed...<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">URL:<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><a 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type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">_______________________________________________<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">Pittsburgh-railways mailing list<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><a href="mailto:Pittsburgh-railways@mailman.dementix.org">Pittsburgh-railways@mailman.dementix.org</a><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><a href="https://mailman.dementix.org/mailman/listinfo/pittsburgh-railways">https://mailman.dementix.org/mailman/listinfo/pittsburgh-railways</a><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">_______________________________________________<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">Pittsburgh-railways mailing list<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><a href="mailto:Pittsburgh-railways@mailman.dementix.org">Pittsburgh-railways@mailman.dementix.org</a><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><a href="https://mailman.dementix.org/mailman/listinfo/pittsburgh-railways">https://mailman.dementix.org/mailman/listinfo/pittsburgh-railways</a><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">-------------- next part --------------<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">An HTML attachment was scrubbed...<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">URL:<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><a href="http://mailman.dementix.org/pipermail/pittsburgh-railways/attachments/20130530/0c8d9252/attachment.html">http://mailman.dementix.org/pipermail/pittsburgh-railways/attachments/20130530/0c8d9252/attachment.html</a><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">_______________________________________________<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">Pittsburgh-railways mailing list<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><a href="mailto:Pittsburgh-railways@mailman.dementix.org">Pittsburgh-railways@mailman.dementix.org</a><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><a href="https://mailman.dementix.org/mailman/listinfo/pittsburgh-railways">https://mailman.dementix.org/mailman/listinfo/pittsburgh-railways</a><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><br><br><br>-- <br>Herb Brannon<br>Back In The Burgh !<br>GO PENS !<br><br><br><br>-------------- next part --------------<br>An HTML attachment was scrubbed...<br>URL: <a href="http://mailman.dementix.org/pipermail/pittsburgh-railways/attachments/20130530/377d59c7/attachment.html">http://mailman.dementix.org/pipermail/pittsburgh-railways/attachments/20130530/377d59c7/attachment.html</a> <br>_______________________________________________<br>Pittsburgh-railways mailing list<br><a 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