<html><head></head><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; "><div>Uh huh. I never saw a bus conductor in this country but you and I probably saw plenty of them in other continents Dwight.</div><div><br></div>In the early 1960s, when I was in the army in Germany, it was very common to have two-man crews on buses and tram cars throughout Germany. That practice was continued in spite of having lost about 10% of their population in World War II and having lost almost a whole generation of men. Then in the middle 1960s they woke up. It would take someone like the parents of our friend Christopf Grimm to explain better than I could, what actually happened. A lot of the work in Germany was being done by <i>Gastarbeiter </i>(guest workers) from Turkey, Italy and other nations which could spare them. By the middle 1960s the conductors disappeared in favor of the scheme of buying your ticket from a vending machine at the car or bus stop and canceling it on the vehicle and initially the vehicles had signs reading SCHAFNERLOS (translates CONDUCTORLESS). I cannot think of a single city in Germany today that has on-board fare collection.<div><br></div><div>Holland did the same thing as Germany
. that lasted until fare evasion became the national sport. A few years ago motormen and drivers again became responsible for enforcing fare payment.</div><div><br></div><div>East Germany? In the former DDR everyone was a spy against everyone. One never knew who would turn you in to the STASI (the secret police). If necessary, you were expected to turn in your own mother. So as long as it was a communist nation, fare evasion was not an issue. People paid to ride because it was much better than the alternative. Well, several years after unification I watched fare inspection officers catch a fare evader in Erfurt. Attempt to catch would be a better expression, for this chap broke loose, knocked one officer to the floor of the trolley, knocked down several other riders, and escaped out the open door. Problem is, they knew who he was, and I suspect once they got him, there was probably a charge for resisting arrest, getting caught without a fare for the umpteenth time, and bruising a police office
. </div><div><br></div><div>Britain? Well, all transit systems had similar problems. In the 19th century we all had small vehicles with two men staffing them. Some actually had three men. As time passed, all the railways had to find ways to economize. Our approach was to make the vehicles longer and then tell the conductors to find another job. It took the Germans until the 1960s to really make their vehicles longer
they became the worldwide pattern for articulated conductorless cars
talk about high capacity with one man. The British way of economizing was to go higher
if we have to have a second man, put a second deck on the trams and later the buses. The concept of double deck vehicles only began to disappear with handicapped accessibility laws. Britain in the 1960s, when I first went there, and John Swindler will remember this well because his mom was a British war bride, the rule almost everywhere was to lock the driver in a cab in the front of the tram or bus, and let the passengers get on at the rear where the conductor tended them. It was probably quite satisfactory because most transit systems were corporation owned, meaning city owned, and there was a feeling that we needed to provide some jobs for our people<br><div><br></div><div><br><div><div>On Jul 9, 2013, at 3:20 PM, Dwight Long wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote type="cite"><div><br>John<br><br>Did the CTA use two man crews on the buses? I did not think so, but who <br>knows.<br><br>When I first started traveling to South America in the 90s (hey, that's <br>1990s for you smart asses out there) most of the buses were two man <br>operated.<br><br>Dwight<br><br>----- Original Message ----- <br>From: "John Swindler" <<a href="mailto:j_swindler@hotmail.com">j_swindler@hotmail.com</a>><br>To: "Western PA Trolley discussion" <br><<a href="mailto:pittsburgh-railways@mailman.dementix.org">pittsburgh-railways@mailman.dementix.org</a>><br>Sent: Tuesday, July 09, 2013 1:17 PM<br>Subject: Re: [PRCo] PRCo Route 59<br><br><br><br>New Orleans had two man/women crews on St. Charles into the 'exact fare' <br>era. On a 1971 visit, the women conductors only job was to open and close <br>the door - maybe also give a 'two bell' signal. About all I recall of that <br>visit was: "this is beyond stupid". As a disclaimer, this biased <br>viewpoint was probably due to two summers driving buses for Chicago Transit <br>Auth.<br><br><br><br><br><blockquote type="cite">From: <a href="mailto:fwschneider@comcast.net">fwschneider@comcast.net</a><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2013 12:57:24 -0400<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">To: <a href="mailto:pittsburgh-railways@mailman.dementix.org">pittsburgh-railways@mailman.dementix.org</a><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">Subject: Re: [PRCo] PRCo Route 59<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">The route cards ended near the onset of World War II when PRC realized <br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">they did not have the staff resources for such petty trivial things as <br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">keeping paper records of every little diversion. Those route cards <br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">showed everything
. If a fire downtown required a diversion for two <br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">hours, they were posted to the cards. If a route was altered over night <br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">so a switch could be replaced, the route cards were annotated.<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">I did not waste my time typing every trivial detail. I only copied <br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">permanent route changes. In an era where where schools are no longer <br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">teaching children to read and write cursive, my objective was to create a <br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">file that dumbed-down people could read if they were no longer able to <br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">read the original route cards (which are in cursive).<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">I did not have access to my old ERA Headlights magazines at the time. <br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">They had been moved to the library at Arden and I was temporarily in an <br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">apartment. I have inserted final abandonment dates but there are other <br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">things that I don't have such as when the northside routes were shifted <br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">from the 7th St/6th St loop to the 6th St. Bridge (it was sometime in <br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">1957).<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">I also created several ancillary files such as the dates that low-floor <br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">cars went into service on each route (they were usually in the route <br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">cards) and the dates that the lines were fully one-man.<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">By the way, if anyone gives a s**t, the one-man conversions were a <br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">problem. There were sometimes dates posted in the route cards that <br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">conflicted with scheduled manhours. I went with the hours. When the <br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">weekday hours dropped to the point that it was obvious that the conductors <br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">had finally disappeared, I took that as the date. The system was <br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">completely converted to one-man in 1937 when the last trailers on West <br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">View - Belleview (10, 11, 15) were replaced by single cars on Feb. 8, 1937 <br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">and route 13 lost its trailers 28 days later. Route 27 (Carnegie) began <br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">weekday one-man cars in 1931 but the crew hours on weekdays did not drop <br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">sufficiently to indicate complete loss of conductors until March 15, 1937.<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">But the thing that amazed me about PRC was it had to be the largest system <br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">in the nation to begin conversion to one-man cars and perhaps the first to <br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">finish the job. The company attempted to put one-man cars on the Castle <br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">Shannon - Mt. Lebanon shuttle in 1920 but went back to two-man cars when <br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">the crews refused to work them. When they converted Bon Air, 36th St. <br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">Transfer and North Washington in 1923, the company's attitude was more <br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">along the lines of, 'we are the employer, you are the worker, you can work <br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">where we put you or find another job. By 1930 route 82, one of the <br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">heaviest lines in the system was fully one-man, seven days a week. Route <br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">87 Ardmore, hauling people from Wilkinsburg to the Westinghouse Electric <br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">and Air Brake was one of the earliest conversions
November 10, 1924. <br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">Route 88 Frankstown went one-man between 1930 and 1931.<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">Now think of Chicago
the last routes in 1958 were two-man. <br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">Philadelphia still had a small number of conductors in 1971. Illinois <br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">Terminal never ran a PCC without a conductor. Boston had those <br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">center-entrance cars that required conductors into the late 1940s. San <br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">Francisco had conductors into the late 1950s. New Orleans had the second <br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">man until the middle 1960s.<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">On Jul 9, 2013, at 11:50 AM, Dwight Long wrote:<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">Fred<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">The final change to route 65, other than its discontinuance as a rail <br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">operation, was its extension from Munhall Loop to East Pittsburgh over <br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">the former route 55 trackage. Not sure when this occurred (when the <br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">Glenwood bridge was closed to trams) but it was in effect, AIR, until <br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">the end of tram operations from Lincoln Place. I took pictures of the <br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">operation in early 1965.<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">Dwight<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">From: Fred Schneider<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">Sent: Tuesday, 09 July, 2013 11:35<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">To: Western PA Trolley discussion<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">Subject: Re: [PRCo] PRCo Route 59<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">Route cards for route 506 Homestead and Homeville show the following (if <br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">I transcribed it correctly)
never did find anyone willing to proofread <br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">my work. There are certain dates such as 1930 and 1937 where they <br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">simply listed the routes even if they didn't change so the dates are not <br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">always indicative of a change unless it is so stated. Usually a change <br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">only shows the specific streets that were changed. fws<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">January 1902
from a point in Homeville along a township road through <br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">Munhall to 9th Avenue in Homestead and over 8th Avenue to Hays Street.<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">1917: From a point in Homeville-Greenspring Avenue, Ravine Street, 8th <br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">Avenue to Hays Street.<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">July 17 to July 19, 1919; August 29 to Sept 1, 1919 and August 18 to <br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">August 22, 1919
line split into two sections at bridge above Homeville <br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">Siding because of unsafe condition of bridge,<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">August 10, 1925: Length of line: round trip 5.23 miles.<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">May 14, 1927 to June 19, 1927: Shuttle service from Terrace Step stop <br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">to end of line, Homeville.<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">Feb. 14, 1928: Route 506 combined with route 507 (Homestead-Mifflin). <br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">One man operation began. See route 507 for history 1928 to 1944.<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">July 9, 1944: Began operation from Homeville to 18th and West Streets. <br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">Route 65 operating SE PCC cars from Munhall Loop to Lincoln Place loop. <br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">Route 59 used double end low-floor cars.<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">March 7, 1953: Last full day of route 59.<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">______________________________________________________________________________________________________<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">Original route 507 operated only November 1902. Have not found route <br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">card.<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">April 1, 1928: On this date, route 507 started under supervision of <br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">Pittsburgh Railways Company using schedules and equipment formerly used <br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">by Homestead and Mifflin Street Railway.<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">August 24, 1928: Shuttle began operating between Lincoln Place and Main <br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">and McWhinney, also Main and McWhinney and 8th Avenue, Homestead.<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">November 21, 1928: Through cars Lincoln Place to 13th and West <br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">Streets, Homestead.<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">November 23, 1928: Through cars Lincoln Place to 8th and West Sts., <br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">Homestead.<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">December 14, 1928: Combined with route 506 Homeville and one-man <br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">operation began.<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">January 1, 1930: Main St., Center Ave., Main St., Walnut Ave., 22nd <br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">Ave., West St., Amity St., 8th Ave., Munhall St., Ravine St., <br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">Greenspring Ave. to Hays St. in Homeville.<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">March 15, 1937: Lincoln Place along Interboro Avenue and Main St. to <br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">West St. to 12th St., Amith., 8th Ave., Munhall Junction, Ravine St., <br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">Greenspring Ave. to High St.<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">July 9, 1944: Homeville end split from Lincoln Place end and <br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">designated route 59. Lincoln Place to Munhall loop designated route <br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">65. Muldfowney Loop in Lincoln Place opened this date permitting PCC <br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">service on route 65 and the line was extended eastward a short distance <br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">from Interboro Avenue to Muldowney Street.<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">October 31, 1956 Transit Guide: Munhall to Lincoln Place over 8th <br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">Avenue in Munhall and McKeesport, Amity St., 12th St., West St., 22nd <br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">St., Interboro Ave. and private right-of-way to Muldowney Loop. <br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">Unchanged from July 9, 1944.<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">Sept. 5, 1965: Last full day of service route 65.<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">On Jul 9, 2013, at 9:52 AM, Lattner, Raymond wrote:<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">Hello. I was looking at an older historic topo map and noticed that <br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">route 59<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">traveled up Ravine Street and then split at the intersection of <br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">Greensprings Ave., Coal Rd and Black Path (road names based on Google <br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">Maps).<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">One line continued up Greensprings Ave. to what is called Terrace and <br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">ends at what I believe is High Street and Bowes Ave. The other line<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">on PRW seems to follow Duquesne Ave then Homestead Duquesne Rd to Coal <br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">Rd. to terminate at Coal Rd. Extension and Bellwood Rd.<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">I have attached that section of the map. My first question is, is this <br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">correct? If so, how did these lines operate and what destinations <br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">signs<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">were used? When did PRCo stop using the line to Bellwood Rd.? Maybe I <br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">have this wrong and it could be a coal mine RR?<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">If this was discussed before I apologize.<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">Oh, map web site in case some of you do not have it. <br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><a href="http://geonames.usgs.gov/pls/topomaps/f?p=262:1:4149522851964442">http://geonames.usgs.gov/pls/topomaps/f?p=262:1:4149522851964442</a><br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">Thanks.<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">Raymond E. 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