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<DIV><FONT size=4>Fred</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4>I got there too late for the trains on the boats across the
channel, but I did ride the boat train down to Foulkestone Harbour and the ferry
across to Calais. It was a rough crossing and my GF at the time had a real
problem with it, similar to yours. I was a bit queasy but made it
ok. Staying in the center of the boat helps. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4>That was my first experience with European o/t British
trains. Went overnight thru Metz to Locarno, rode FART, then TEE to Milano
and Setto Bello to Napoli, then on across the Straits of Messina, where they DID
(and still do) put our train on the ferry, to Palermo via Catania and
Caltanissetta. Back up the west coast of Italia and overnight to Paris via
sleeper, then Bolougne and back to merry old England.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4>Got to London and I said, “Gee, it’s nice to be back somewhere
that they speak our language.” But our cabbie was a Cockney and I could
not understand him. Fortunately GF had lived in England for a spell and
could--------------------------</FONT></DIV>
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<DIV><FONT size=4>Dwight</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4></FONT> </DIV>
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<DIV style="font-color: black"><B>From:</B> <A title=fwschneider@comcast.net
href="mailto:fwschneider@comcast.net">Fred Schneider</A> </DIV>
<DIV><B>Sent:</B> Friday, 12 July, 2013 19:59</DIV>
<DIV><B>To:</B> <A title=pittsburgh-railways@mailman.dementix.org
href="mailto:pittsburgh-railways@mailman.dementix.org">Western PA Trolley
discussion</A> </DIV>
<DIV><B>Subject:</B> Re: [PRCo] PRR Cleveland Stations</DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV>
<DIV
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<DIV
style="FONT-SIZE: small; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri'; FONT-WEIGHT: normal; COLOR: #000000; FONT-STYLE: normal; TEXT-DECORATION: none; DISPLAY: inline">Thanks
for the support. There are a few delightful exceptions like the
Northeast Corridor and of course those ultra high speed railroad operations in
Europe.<BR><BR>You and I have been there, seen it, ridden it and understand
it. The others really will never quite comprehend it until
they see it. <BR><BR>I will never forget my first and second
crossings of the English Channel by train and boat. The first was
staying awake all night because, as a young serviceman, I had no money for the
berth on the boat and train. The second was returning a few weeks later
and putting my breakfast in the channel so many times I had dry
heaves. Damn that crossing was rough. And it was
essentially an eight hour trip from London to Paris … third rail powered
equipment on the British side and steam in France. Today its a 130
minute trip … you no sooner get settled in the seat than you are
there! If you are going from anywhere near central London to central
Paris, it is faster by train today than figuring in the airport taxi or bus, the
check in, the luggage claim and the flight.<BR><BR>I have experienced so much of
Europe in the days of steam and early electrification and compared that with
what they are doing today. The changes are unbelievable.
For them a 300 to 400 mile trip by train today can be faster than
flying. Helps explain why the French are hauling millions of people
a year on their TGVs. <BR><BR><BR>On Jul 12, 2013, at 6:46 PM,
Dwight Long wrote:<BR><BR>> <BR>> Fred<BR>> <BR>> The jet aircraft
era was the final straw on a sinking pax business for business people.<BR>>
<BR>> Dwight<BR>> <BR>> From: Fred Schneider <BR>> Sent: Friday, 12
July, 2013 18:04<BR>> To: Western PA Trolley discussion <BR>> Subject: Re:
[PRCo] PRR Cleveland Stations<BR>> Recall my comment about visiting Cleveland
in 1959? I probably have the record for the G. I. taking the longest
time to get home on leave from Fort Hood because my life's love has been seeing
things. It took pretty close to two weeks to get from Kileen, Texas
to Lancaster, Pennsylvania … the army gave me a week's travel time because I
said personal auto (even though I didn't own one) … that gave me the most travel
time and the most travel cash. <BR>> <BR>> I hitched rides
(yes, I know it was against the Uniform Code of Military freaking Justice ..
they have a rule against everything) from Killeen to St. Louis and then spent a
day or so taking pictures of PCCs. Then I rode the Wabash up to
Englewood and was met my my mom's first cousin. The next day I went
into Chicago on the Oreland Park (Wabash) commuter with the cousin and rode the
North Shore to Milwaukee and back. The following day I took pictures
on CTA … not many … it was summer but the temperature dropped from 90 the day
before to the 60s. I found a movie palace to warm up for a couple of
hours. On Sunday I actually spent time with the family.
On Monday I rode the South Shore to South Bend and then hitched a couple of
rides to Cleveland.<BR>> <BR>> One of those guys who picked me up was a
remarkable "old man." He claimed he had just figured out what he wanted to
do with his life and he was 40 years old. Old is relative isn't
it. When you are 15, a 20 year old is much older and no one could be
as old as your parents. At 73, anyone from 40 to 90 is in our age
group! <BR>> <BR>> Well I spent a day in Cleveland … rode the
Green Road line of Shaker, walked from Van Aken to the terminal basement, rode
the one daily rush hour trip with former Cleveland Peter Witts back as far as
Lee Road, had dinner, then rode the entire Rapid, then caught the B&O to
Pittsburgh. I spent Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, Friday and
Saturday photographing trolleys in Pittsburgh and then my parents drove me
home. <BR>> <BR>> Before the month's leave was over, I also rode
Baltimore Transit, a pre-PCC fantrip (1053) in Washington, and went to Boston
for the opening of the Riverside line.<BR>> <BR>> By the end of July I had
a most delightful experience …. riding a steam drawn subway train.
The outer reaches of the Metropolitan Division of the London Underground
remained in steam until 1960. I have no pictures because the camera was in
the shop but I have memories of those 1896 tank engines and compartmented
rolling stock. <BR>> <BR>> But back to the original story … that
B&O night train to Washington was jammed full of people.
Although I was in the coach, it was probably over 95% of a full seated
load. If the Pennsy's Cleveland Washington sleepers came off
the year before, that might explain it. But Boeing had introduced
the 707 jetliner in 1958 and it was only be only a matter of months until it
would be possible for a businessman from Cleveland, who wanted to lobby (bribe?)
his legislators in Washington to be able to fly down from Hopkins Airport in the
morning and be back in Cleveland in his own bed with his wife the same
day. He would no longer have to suffer taking the train one night
and coming back the next night and having two nights away from his own bed.
<BR>> <BR>> <BR>> <BR>> On Jul 12, 2013, at 4:40 PM, Bob Rathke
wrote:<BR>> <BR>>> I've got half a carton of those fragile, brown paper
chips. <BR>>> <BR>>> ----- Original Message -----<BR>>> From:
"Dwight Long" <dwightlong@verizon.net> <BR>>> To: "Western PA
Trolley discussion" <pittsburgh-railways@mailman.dementix.org>
<BR>>> Cc: ge13031@yahoo.com, "Dick" <hassel8@comcast.net>,
1artwheeler@gmail.com <BR>>> Sent: Friday, July 12, 2013 3:34:44 PM
<BR>>> Subject: Re: [PRCo] PRR Cleveland Stations <BR>>>
<BR>>> <BR>>> Fred <BR>>> <BR>>> My point exactly in
response to Bob’s question about continuing to use the lakefront yards and
facilities for servicing pax equipment post 1953. That amount would not
pay for establishing trackage and servicing facilities at E. 55th street
station. <BR>>> <BR>>> I have OGs for most years post WW II and a
few before. From 1962 thru 1971 I have December issue for each year (plus
April and May 1971) so I can generally zero in on at least the last year of
operation of any particular train. <BR>>> <BR>>> For PRR the
Cleveland service was for years trains 38 and 39, THE CLEVELANDER. This
ran via Youngstown between Pittsburgh and Cleveland en route to/from NYC.
In the late 50s it was still a quite respectable train; I used it many
times from Rochester (Pa.) to da Burgh. Had sleepers (plural) and those
ultra-comfortable but poorly built P85BR coaches and a diner/lounge. By
the early 60s PRR essentially abdicated the New York-Cleveland market to NYC and
greatly downgraded 38 and 39. At the end of 1963 it still had one thru
sleeper Cleveland-NYC but coach pax had to transfer cars at Pittsburgh.
The trains only ran between between Pittsburgh and Cleveland, with the sleeper
handled on 48 and 49, THE GENERAL, between Pittsburgh and New York. By the end
of 1964, 38 and 39 had been reduced to a local train running only between
Cleveland and Youngstown at commuter hours. The next year even that
vestigial remnant was gone. It never made it to PC days. <BR>>>
<BR>>> The Cleveland-Washington sleeper on 38 and 39 was a casualty of the
1957-58 recession. The B&O’s Cleveland-Washington service outlasted it
by several years. <BR>>> <BR>>> I love to pore through the old OGs,
but each time I use those from the 50s some small bit of fragile, browned,
non-acid-free paper disintegrates! <BR>>> <BR>>> Dwight <BR>>>
<BR>>> <BR>>> From: Fred Schneider <BR>>> Sent: Friday, 12
July, 2013 15:00 <BR>>> To: Western PA Trolley discussion <BR>>>
Subject: Re: [PRCo] PRR Cleveland Stations <BR>>> I was always of the
understanding that they continued to run trains out of the lake front
station. The sum you mention for a commercial building would be around a
million dollars today … not a lot of money. You can easily dump that
into a really fancy house. My thoughts on the matter were
along the lines of how fast did the east side collapse and did the PRR want to
keep running trains out of East 55th Street. <BR>>> <BR>>> In 1959,
when I made my first visit to Cleveland, Shaker Heights was just past its
prime. It was a great neighborhood. I went back in 1965 or
1966 and noticed that some of the elite restaurants in Shaker Square (actually
Cleveland city) were gone. It was changing. In the 1980s, I was
working in Sharon or New Castle and I said to my boss … be a beautiful day to go
take trolley pictures in the rush hour in Cleveland. At 3:00 that
afternoon Dave looked at me and said, "We're not going to get to Cleveland for
dinner if you don't pack up." Well, that evening we drove out
Kinsman Road to Shaker Square and I had a real awakening about what had happened
to the east side of the city. Ugh. I had walked from
Broadway over to the New York Central on 125th Street in Harlem around 1969 but
Kinsman Road was so bad I would not have wanted to have the car break
down. <BR>>> <BR>>> I was no longer paying attention to
what was happening to the mainline passenger trains in this country by 1970-1971
but maybe Bob Rathke can tell us because he collects schedules. Was
the PennCentral still running a Pittsburgh-Cleveland or New York - Philadelphia
- Pittsburgh - Cleveland service when Amtrak was formed?
<BR>>> <BR>>> <BR>>> <BR>>> On Jul 12, 2013, at 2:21 PM,
Dwight Long wrote: <BR>>> <BR>>>> <BR>>>> Bob
<BR>>>> <BR>>>> Don’t know, but certainly likely. The
1941 track map of Cleveland railways does not show any significant auxiliary
tracks at E 55th. Supposedly PRR spent $80,000 to improve the E. 55th
station, which even in dollars of the year in 1953 would not have paid for much
than some interior improvements and general “sprucing up.” So I suspect
that PRR continued to use their facilities on the lakefront as you
suggest. They would have had to pay a switching crew anyway to break up
and reassemble trains, so it presumably would not have been that much more to
shuttle the consists between lakefront and 55th St. <BR>>>>
<BR>>>> Dwight <BR>>>> <BR>>>> From: Bob Rathke
<BR>>>> Sent: Friday, 12 July, 2013 09:15 <BR>>>> To: Western
PA Trolley discussion <BR>>>> Subject: Re: [PRCo] PRR Cleveland
Stations <BR>>>> <BR>>>> <BR>>>> Dwight,
<BR>>>> <BR>>>> <BR>>>> <BR>>>> The station
may have been gone in 1958, but the tracks, platforms and a train were
still there when I took the photo. Were th e station tracks used to
store and assemble trains that would depart from E. 55th St.? <BR>>>>
<BR>>>> <BR>>>> <BR>>>> Bob <BR>>>>
<BR>>>> <BR>>>> <BR>>>> ----- Original Message -----
<BR>>>> <BR>>>> <BR>>>> From: "Dwight Long"
<dwightlong@verizon.net> <BR>>>> To: "Western PA Trolley
discussion" <pittsburgh-railways@mailman.dementix.org> <BR>>>>
Sent: Friday, July 12, 2013 1:31:34 AM <BR>>>> Subject: Re: [PRCo] PRR
Cleveland Stations <BR>>>> <BR>>>> Bob <BR>>>>
<BR>>>> The last train from the lakefront station, formerly Cleveland
Union Depot, was 27 September 1953. After that PRR used a station at East
55th Street and Euclid Avenue, some two plus miles from downtown
Cleveland. There is a well-illustrated write-up on the last train, plus a
brief history of Union Depot, in the current Keystone. The old station was
razed in 1959. <BR>>>> <BR>>>> Dwight <BR>>>>
<BR>>>> From: Bob Rathke <BR>>>> Sent: Friday, 12 July, 2013
00:03 <BR>>>> To: Western PA Trolley discussion <BR>>>>
Subject: Re: [PRCo] PRCo Route72 <BR>>>> <BR>>>>
<BR>>>> There was also a Morning Steeler to Cleveland, and both the
morning and afternoon eastbound trains were also called Steelers.
<BR>>>> <BR>>>> <BR>>>> <BR>>>> PRR
passenger trains didn't use CUT - they operated out of the PRR station on West
6th St. and the lakeshore. Attached is a photo I took of that station on
7/8/58. The view is to the west, with Lake Erie in the background.
Note the small PRR coach yard in the right center of the photo. <BR>>>>
<BR>>>> <BR>>>> <BR>>>> The PRR downtown station was
closed about a year after this photo was taken, and after that PRR trains
terminated at the E. 55th St. Station. <BR>>>> <BR>>>>
<BR>>>> <BR>>>> Non <BR>>>> <BR>>>>
<BR>>>> <BR>>>> ----- Original Message ----- <BR>>>>
<BR>>>> <BR>>>> From: "Herb Brannon" <hrbran@cavtel.net>
<BR>>>> To: "Western PA Trolley discussion"
<pittsburgh-railways@mailman.dementix.org> <BR>>>> Sent:
Thursday, July 11, 2013 9:57:27 PM <BR>>>> Subject: Re: [PRCo] PRCo
Route72 <BR>>>> <BR>>>> Bob, <BR>>>> I'm surprised
that a train with the name, "Afternoon Steeler" was permitted <BR>>>>
inside Cleveland Union Terminal. <BR>>>> <BR>>>>
<BR>>>> On Thu, Jul 11, 2013 at 4:52 PM, Bob Rathke
<bobrathke@comcast.net> wrote: <BR>>>> <BR>>>>> I
watched the first westbound train to leave Penn St ation on that bridge
<BR>>>>> in 1955 - the Afternoon Steeler to Cleveland.
<BR>>>>> <BR>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
<BR>>>>> From: "Fred Schneider" <fwschneider@comcast.net>
<BR>>>>> To: "Western PA Trolley discussion" <
<BR>>>>> pittsburgh-railways@mailman.dementix.org>
<BR>>>>> Sent: Thursday, July 11, 2013 3:26:38 PM
<BR>>>>> Subject: Re: [PRCo] PRCo Route72 <BR>>>>>
<BR>>>>> Anyone else would have bought a 4-8-4.
Change that. Anyone else with <BR>>>>> brains would have
bought a diesel. Think of NP, GN, Southern, ACL, SAL,
<BR>>>>> ATSF, even Reading … all those who proved during WW2 how
well EMD's product <BR>>>>> worked. <BR>>>>>
<BR>>>>> <BR>>>>> <BR>>>>> On Jul 11, 2013,
at 3:40 PM, Dwight Long wrote: <BR>>>>> <BR>>>>>>
<BR>>>>>> Bob <BR>>>>>> <BR>>>>>>
Done so that T1 locos would not stall leaving the station westbound.
<BR>>>>> The rigid frame caused the drivers to bind up on the curve,
and most <BR>>>>> westbound trains with T1s had to be assisted by a
snapper to get out of the <BR>>>>> station. <BR>>>>>>
<BR>>>>>> Of course before the project was finished, so were the
T1s. <BR>>>>>> <BR>>>>>> Dwight
<BR>>>>>> <BR>>>>>> From: Bob Rathke
<BR>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, 11 July, 2013 12:55
<BR>>>>>> To: Western PA Trolley discussion
<BR>>>>>> Subject: Re: [PRCo] PRCo Route72
<BR>>>>>> That bridge from the PRR station to the 6-track
double-deck bridge over <BR>>>>> the Allegheny River was replaced by
the current bridge (with a more gradual <BR>>>>> curve) in the
spring of 1955. <BR>>>>>> <BR>>>>>> ----- Original
Message ----- <BR>>>>>> From: "Raymond Lattner"
<rlattner@pa.gov> <BR>>>>>> To: "Western PA Trolley
discussion ( <BR>>>>> pittsburgh-railways@mailman.dementix.org)"
< <BR>>>>> pittsburgh-railways@mailman.dementix.org>
<BR>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, July 11, 2013 11:22:33 AM
<BR>>>>>> Subject: [PRCo] PRCo Route72
<BR>>>>>> <BR>>>>>> Attached is a pic of route 72
Bloomfield car. Penn ave. downtown. <BR>>>>>>
<BR>>>>>>> From <BR>>>>>
http://images.library.pitt.edu/cgi-bin/i/image/image-idx?rgn1=hpicasc_ci;med=1;q1=AIS.2012.03;size=20;c=hpicasc;back=back1373559754;subview=detail;resnum=322;view=entry;lastview=thumbnail;cc=hpicasc;entryid=x-201203.1917.6503;viewid=20130206-HPICASC-0323.TIF#
<BR>>>>>> <BR>>>>>> Ray <BR>>>>>>
<BR>>>>>> <BR>>>>>> <BR>>>>>>
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<BR>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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<BR>>>>> <BR>>>>> <BR>>>>>
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<BR>>>>> <BR>>>> <BR>>>> <BR>>>>
<BR>>>> -- <BR>>>> Herb Brannon <BR>>>> Back In The
Burgh ! <BR>>>> Let's Go Bucs <BR>>>> <BR>>>>
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