<html><head><style type='text/css'>p { margin: 0; }</style></head><body><div style='font-family: Arial; font-size: 12pt; color: #000000'><P>Through the first half of the 1950's the PRR had three trains each way between Pgh. and Cleveland: the Morning and Afternoon Steelers (coaches, and earlier a lounge car) and the Clevelander. Between Cleveland and Pittsburgh (via Youngstown) the Clevelander carried a sleeping car and a coach, and east of Pittsburgh these trains were combined with The General which had sleepers, diner and lounge car.</P>
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<P>The Clevelander was in the 2/9/64 timetable, but was not in the 4/26/64 timetable. I checked timetables going back to 1951, and all of them identify the Cleveland Station as simply "Penna. Station" - no street address, although in the 1950's timetables, mileage numbers indicate that "Penna. Station" was west of "Euclid Ave. Station"; I couldn't find mention of the West 6th St. address in any of the timetables. In the late 1950's and early 60's timetables the address and phone number for "Penna Station" in Cleveland was - get this - the Grant St. and Liberty Ave Station in Pgh. - I assume that by that time the Cleveland station was minimally staffed, if at all. The timetables were only partially helpful in solving this one.</P>
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<P>The other Pgh.-Cleveland service was via the B&O (plus the B&O/P&LE/Erie connections via Youngstown). The B&O train from Cleveland to Baltimore was the Cleveland Night Express which was combined with/split from other B&O through trains east of Pittsburgh. From Pgh. to Cleveland, The Cleveland Night Express carried a sleeper, lounge car and coach. This train was in the October, 1962 timetable, but was not in the 1/22/63 timetable.</P>
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<P>Bob<BR><BR></P>
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<P><B>From: </B>"Fred Schneider" <fwschneider@comcast.net><BR><B>To: </B>"Western PA Trolley discussion" <pittsburgh-railways@mailman.dementix.org><BR><B>Sent: </B>Friday, July 12, 2013 2:00:29 PM<BR><B>Subject: </B>Re: [PRCo] PRR Cleveland Stations<BR><BR>I was always of the understanding that they continued to run trains out of the lake front station. The sum you mention for a commercial building would be around a million dollars today … not a lot of money. You can easily dump that into a really fancy house. My thoughts on the matter were along the lines of how fast did the east side collapse and did the PRR want to keep running trains out of East 55th Street.<BR><BR>In 1959, when I made my first visit to Cleveland, Shaker Heights was just past its prime. It was a great neighborhood. I went back in 1965 or 1966 and noticed that some of the elite restaurants in Shaker Square (actually Cleveland city) were gone. It was changing. In the 1980s, I was working in Sharon or New Castle and I said to my boss … be a beautiful day to go take trolley pictures in the rush hour in Cleveland. At 3:00 that afternoon Dave looked at me and said, "We're not going to get to Cleveland for dinner if you don't pack up." Well, that evening we drove out Kinsman Road to Shaker Square and I had a real awakening about what had happened to the east side of the city. Ugh. I had walked from Broadway over to the New York Central on 125th Street in Harlem around 1969 but Kinsman Road was so bad I would not have wanted to have the car break down. <BR><BR>I was no longer paying attention to what was happening to the mainline passenger trains in this country by 1970-1971 but maybe Bob Rathke can tell us because he collects schedules. Was the PennCentral still running a Pittsburgh-Cleveland or New York - Philadelphia - Pittsburgh - Cleveland service when Amtrak was formed? <BR><BR><BR><BR>On Jul 12, 2013, at 2:21 PM, Dwight Long wrote:<BR><BR>> <BR>> Bob<BR>> <BR>> Don’t know, but certainly likely. The 1941 track map of Cleveland railways does not show any significant auxiliary tracks at E 55th. Supposedly PRR spent $80,000 to improve the E. 55th station, which even in dollars of the year in 1953 would not have paid for much than some interior improvements and general “sprucing up.” So I suspect that PRR continued to use their facilities on the lakefront as you suggest. They would have had to pay a switching crew anyway to break up and reassemble trains, so it presumably would not have been that much more to shuttle the consists between lakefront and 55th St.<BR>> <BR>> Dwight<BR>> <BR>> From: Bob Rathke <BR>> Sent: Friday, 12 July, 2013 09:15<BR>> To: Western PA Trolley discussion <BR>> Subject: Re: [PRCo] PRR Cleveland Stations<BR>> <BR>> <BR>> Dwight, <BR>> <BR>> <BR>> <BR>> The station may have been gone in 1958, but the tracks, platforms and a train were still there when I took the photo. Were th e station tracks used to store and assemble trains that would depart from E. 55th St.? <BR>> <BR>> <BR>> <BR>> Bob <BR>> <BR>> <BR>> <BR>> ----- Original Message -----<BR>> <BR>> <BR>> From: "Dwight Long" <dwightlong@verizon.net> <BR>> To: "Western PA Trolley discussion" <pittsburgh-railways@mailman.dementix.org> <BR>> Sent: Friday, July 12, 2013 1:31:34 AM <BR>> Subject: Re: [PRCo] PRR Cleveland Stations <BR>> <BR>> Bob <BR>> <BR>> The last train from the lakefront station, formerly Cleveland Union Depot, was 27 September 1953. After that PRR used a station at East 55th Street and Euclid Avenue, some two plus miles from downtown Cleveland. There is a well-illustrated write-up on the last train, plus a brief history of Union Depot, in the current Keystone. The old station was razed in 1959. <BR>> <BR>> Dwight <BR>> <BR>> From: Bob Rathke <BR>> Sent: Friday, 12 July, 2013 00:03 <BR>> To: Western PA Trolley discussion <BR>> Subject: Re: [PRCo] PRCo Route72 <BR>> <BR>> <BR>> There was also a Morning Steeler to Cleveland, and both the morning and afternoon eastbound trains were also called Steelers. <BR>> <BR>> <BR>> <BR>> PRR passenger trains didn't use CUT - they operated out of the PRR station on West 6th St. and the lakeshore. Attached is a photo I took of that station on 7/8/58. The view is to the west, with Lake Erie in the background. Note the small PRR coach yard in the right center of the photo. <BR>> <BR>> <BR>> <BR>> The PRR downtown station was closed about a year after this photo was taken, and after that PRR trains terminated at the E. 55th St. Station. <BR>> <BR>> <BR>> <BR>> Non <BR>> <BR>> <BR>> <BR>> ----- Original Message ----- <BR>> <BR>> <BR>> From: "Herb Brannon" <hrbran@cavtel.net> <BR>> To: "Western PA Trolley discussion" <pittsburgh-railways@mailman.dementix.org> <BR>> Sent: Thursday, July 11, 2013 9:57:27 PM <BR>> Subject: Re: [PRCo] PRCo Route72 <BR>> <BR>> Bob, <BR>> I'm surprised that a train with the name, "Afternoon Steeler" was permitted <BR>> inside Cleveland Union Terminal. <BR>> <BR>> <BR>> On Thu, Jul 11, 2013 at 4:52 PM, Bob Rathke <bobrathke@comcast.net> wrote: <BR>> <BR>>> I watched the first westbound train to leave Penn St ation on that bridge <BR>>> in 1955 - the Afternoon Steeler to Cleveland. <BR>>> <BR>>> ----- Original Message ----- <BR>>> From: "Fred Schneider" <fwschneider@comcast.net> <BR>>> To: "Western PA Trolley discussion" < <BR>>> pittsburgh-railways@mailman.dementix.org> <BR>>> Sent: Thursday, July 11, 2013 3:26:38 PM <BR>>> Subject: Re: [PRCo] PRCo Route72 <BR>>> <BR>>> Anyone else would have bought a 4-8-4. Change that. Anyone else with <BR>>> brains would have bought a diesel. Think of NP, GN, Southern, ACL, SAL, <BR>>> ATSF, even Reading … all those who proved during WW2 how well EMD's product <BR>>> worked. <BR>>> <BR>>> <BR>>> <BR>>> On Jul 11, 2013, at 3:40 PM, Dwight Long wrote: <BR>>> <BR>>>> <BR>>>> Bob <BR>>>> <BR>>>> Done so that T1 locos would not stall leaving the station westbound. <BR>>> The rigid frame caused the drivers to bind up on the curve, and most <BR>>> westbound trains with T1s had to be assisted by a snapper to get out of the <BR>>> station. <BR>>>> <BR>>>> Of course before the project was finished, so were the T1s. <BR>>>> <BR>>>> Dwight <BR>>>> <BR>>>> From: Bob Rathke <BR>>>> Sent: Thursday, 11 July, 2013 12:55 <BR>>>> To: Western PA Trolley discussion <BR>>>> Subject: Re: [PRCo] PRCo Route72 <BR>>>> That bridge from the PRR station to the 6-track double-deck bridge over <BR>>> the Allegheny River was replaced by the current bridge (with a more gradual <BR>>> curve) in the spring of 1955. <BR>>>> <BR>>>> ----- Original Message ----- <BR>>>> From: "Raymond Lattner" <rlattner@pa.gov> <BR>>>> To: "Western PA Trolley discussion ( <BR>>> pittsburgh-railways@mailman.dementix.org)" < <BR>>> pittsburgh-railways@mailman.dementix.org> <BR>>>> Sent: Thursday, July 11, 2013 11:22:33 AM <BR>>>> Subject: [PRCo] PRCo Route72 <BR>>>> <BR>>>> Attached is a pic of route 72 Bloomfield car. Penn ave. downtown. <BR>>>> <BR>>>>> From <BR>>> http://images.library.pitt.edu/cgi-bin/i/image/image-idx?rgn1=hpicasc_ci;med=1;q1=AIS.2012.03;size=20;c=hpicasc;back=back1373559754;subview=detail;resnum=322;view=entry;lastview=thumbnail;cc=hpicasc;entryid=x-201203.1917.6503;viewid=20130206-HPICASC-0323.TIF# <BR>>>> <BR>>>> Ray <BR>>>> <BR>>>> <BR>>>> <BR>>>> -------------- next part -------------- <BR>>>> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... <BR>>>> URL: <BR>>> http://mailman.dementix.org/pipermail/pittsburgh-railways/attachments/20130711/d029ce68/attachment.html <BR>>>> -------------- next part -------------- <BR>>>> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... <BR>>>> Name: 2013-07-11_122021.jpg <BR>>>> Type: image/jpeg <BR>>>> Size: 133126 bytes <BR>>>> Desc: 2013-07-11_122021.jpg <BR>>>> Url : <BR>>> http://mailman.dementix.org/pipermail/pittsburgh-railways/attachments/20130711/d029ce68/attachment.jpg <BR>>>> _______________________________________________ <BR>>>> Pittsburgh-railways mailing list <BR>>>> Pittsburgh-railways@mailman.dementix.org <BR>>>> https://mailman.dementix.org/mailman/listinfo/pittsburgh-railways <BR>>>> <BR>>>> <BR>>>> <BR>>>> -------------- next part -------------- <BR>>>> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... <BR>>>> URL: <BR>>> http://mailman.dementix.org/pipermail/pittsburgh-railways/attachments/20130711/94f5bc9a/attachment.html <BR>>>> _______________________________________________ <BR>>>> Pittsburgh-railways mailing list <BR>>>> Pittsburgh-railways@mailman.dementix.org <BR>>>> https://mailman.dementix.org/mailman/listinfo/pittsburgh-railways <BR>>>> <BR>>>> <BR>>>> <BR>>>> -------------- next part -------------- <BR>>>> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... <BR>>>> URL: <BR>>> http://mailman.dementix.org/pipermail/pittsburgh-railways/attachments/20130711/79dd7a5e/attachment.html <BR>>>> _______________________________________________ <BR>>>> Pittsburgh-railways mailing list <BR>>>> Pittsburgh-railways@mailman.dementix.org <BR>>>> https://mailman.dementix.org/mailman/listinfo/pittsburgh-railways <BR>>> <BR>>> <BR>>> <BR>>> <BR>>> <BR>>> _______________________________________________ <BR>>> Pittsburgh-railways mailing list <BR>>> Pittsburgh-railways@mailman.dementix.org <BR>>> https://mailman.dementix.org/mailman/listinfo/pittsburgh-railways <BR>>> <BR>>> <BR>>> <BR>>> -------------- next part -------------- <BR>>> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... <BR>>> URL: <BR>>> http://mailman.dementix.org/pipermail/pittsburgh-railways/attachments/20130711/5bd19c71/attachment.html <BR>>> _______________________________________________ <BR>>> Pittsburgh-railways mailing list <BR>>> Pittsburgh-railways@mailman.dementix.org <BR>>> https://mailman.dementix.org/mailman/listinfo/pittsburgh-railways <BR>>> <BR>> <BR>> <BR>> <BR>> -- <BR>> Herb Brannon <BR>> Back In The Burgh ! <BR>> Let's Go Bucs <BR>> <BR>> <BR>> <BR>> -------------- next part -------------- <BR>> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... <BR>> URL: http://mailman.dementix.org/pipermail/pittsburgh-railways/attachments/20130711/40d13063/attachment.html <BR>> _______________________________________________ <BR>> Pittsburgh-railways mailing list <BR>> Pittsburgh-railways@mailman.dementix.org <BR>> https://mailman.dementix.org/mailman/listinfo/pittsburgh-railways <BR>> <BR>> <BR>> <BR>> -------------- next part -------------- <BR>> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... <BR>> URL: http://mailman.dementix.org/pipermail/pittsburgh-railways/attachments/20130712/522ab903/attachment.html <BR>> -------------- next part -------------- <BR>> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... <BR>> Name: PRRclevelandStation070858.JPG <BR>> Type: image/jpeg <BR>> Size: 31169 bytes <BR>> Desc: not available <BR>> Url : http://mailman.dementix.org/pipermail/pittsburgh-railways/attachments/20130712/522ab903/attachment.jpe <BR>> _______________________________________________ <BR>> Pittsburgh-railways mailing list <BR>> Pittsburgh-railways@mailman.dementix.org <BR>> https://mailman.dementix.org/mailman/listinfo/pittsburgh-railways <BR>> <BR>> <BR>> <BR>> -------------- next part -------------- <BR>> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... <BR>> URL: http://mailman.dementix.org/pipermail/pittsburgh-railways/attachments/20130712/da91ee45/attachment.html <BR>> _______________________________________________ <BR>> Pittsburgh-railways mailing list <BR>> Pittsburgh-railways@mailman.dementix.org <BR>> https://mailman.dementix.org/mailman/listinfo/pittsburgh-railways <BR>> <BR>> <BR>> <BR>> -------------- next part --------------<BR>> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...<BR>> URL: http://mailman.dementix.org/pipermail/pittsburgh-railways/attachments/20130712/b5acf57b/attachment.html <BR>> _______________________________________________<BR>> Pittsburgh-railways mailing list<BR>> Pittsburgh-railways@mailman.dementix.org<BR>> https://mailman.dementix.org/mailman/listinfo/pittsburgh-railways<BR>> <BR>> <BR>> <BR>> -------------- next part --------------<BR>> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...<BR>> URL: http://mailman.dementix.org/pipermail/pittsburgh-railways/attachments/20130712/958d7132/attachment.html <BR>> _______________________________________________<BR>> Pittsburgh-railways mailing list<BR>> Pittsburgh-railways@mailman.dementix.org<BR>> https://mailman.dementix.org/mailman/listinfo/pittsburgh-railways<BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR>_______________________________________________<BR>Pittsburgh-railways mailing list<BR>Pittsburgh-railways@mailman.dementix.org<BR>https://mailman.dementix.org/mailman/listinfo/pittsburgh-railways<BR></P></div>
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