<HTML><HEAD></HEAD>
<BODY dir=ltr>
<DIV dir=ltr>
<DIV style="FONT-SIZE: 14pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Century Gothic'; COLOR: #000000">
<DIV><FONT size=4 face="Century Gothic"></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4>Fred</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4>The jet aircraft era was the final straw on a sinking pax
business for business people.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4>Dwight</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV
style="BORDER-TOP-COLOR: #000000; BORDER-BOTTOM-COLOR: #000000; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 4px solid; BORDER-RIGHT-COLOR: #000000">
<DIV
style="FONT-SIZE: small; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri'; FONT-WEIGHT: normal; COLOR: #000000; FONT-STYLE: normal; TEXT-DECORATION: none; DISPLAY: inline">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt tahoma">
<DIV style="font-color: black"><B>From:</B> <A title=fwschneider@comcast.net
href="mailto:fwschneider@comcast.net">Fred Schneider</A> </DIV>
<DIV><B>Sent:</B> Friday, 12 July, 2013 18:04</DIV>
<DIV><B>To:</B> <A title=pittsburgh-railways@mailman.dementix.org
href="mailto:pittsburgh-railways@mailman.dementix.org">Western PA Trolley
discussion</A> </DIV>
<DIV><B>Subject:</B> Re: [PRCo] PRR Cleveland Stations</DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV>
<DIV
style="BORDER-TOP-COLOR: #000000; BORDER-BOTTOM-COLOR: #000000; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 4px solid; BORDER-RIGHT-COLOR: #000000">
<DIV
style="FONT-SIZE: small; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri'; FONT-WEIGHT: normal; COLOR: #000000; FONT-STYLE: normal; TEXT-DECORATION: none; DISPLAY: inline">Recall
my comment about visiting Cleveland in 1959? I probably have the
record for the G. I. taking the longest time to get home on leave from Fort Hood
because my life's love has been seeing things. It took pretty close
to two weeks to get from Kileen, Texas to Lancaster, Pennsylvania … the army
gave me a week's travel time because I said personal auto (even though I didn't
own one) … that gave me the most travel time and the most travel
cash. <BR><BR>I hitched rides (yes, I know it was against the
Uniform Code of Military freaking Justice .. they have a rule against
everything) from Killeen to St. Louis and then spent a day or so taking pictures
of PCCs. Then I rode the Wabash up to Englewood and was met my my
mom's first cousin. The next day I went into Chicago on the Oreland
Park (Wabash) commuter with the cousin and rode the North Shore to Milwaukee and
back. The following day I took pictures on CTA … not many … it was
summer but the temperature dropped from 90 the day before to the
60s. I found a movie palace to warm up for a couple of
hours. On Sunday I actually spent time with the family.
On Monday I rode the South Shore to South Bend and then hitched a couple of
rides to Cleveland.<BR><BR>One of those guys who picked me up was a remarkable
"old man." He claimed he had just figured out what he wanted to do with
his life and he was 40 years old. Old is relative isn't
it. When you are 15, a 20 year old is much older and no one could be
as old as your parents. At 73, anyone from 40 to 90 is in our age
group! <BR><BR>Well I spent a day in Cleveland … rode the Green Road
line of Shaker, walked from Van Aken to the terminal basement, rode the one
daily rush hour trip with former Cleveland Peter Witts back as far as Lee Road,
had dinner, then rode the entire Rapid, then caught the B&O to
Pittsburgh. I spent Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, Friday and
Saturday photographing trolleys in Pittsburgh and then my parents drove me
home. <BR><BR>Before the month's leave was over, I also rode Baltimore
Transit, a pre-PCC fantrip (1053) in Washington, and went to Boston for the
opening of the Riverside line.<BR><BR>By the end of July I had a most delightful
experience …. riding a steam drawn subway train. The outer reaches
of the Metropolitan Division of the London Underground remained in steam until
1960. I have no pictures because the camera was in the shop but I have
memories of those 1896 tank engines and compartmented rolling stock.
<BR><BR>But back to the original story … that B&O night train to Washington
was jammed full of people. Although I was in the coach, it was
probably over 95% of a full seated load. If the Pennsy's
Cleveland Washington sleepers came off the year before, that might explain
it. But Boeing had introduced the 707 jetliner in 1958 and it was
only be only a matter of months until it would be possible for a businessman
from Cleveland, who wanted to lobby (bribe?) his legislators in Washington to be
able to fly down from Hopkins Airport in the morning and be back in Cleveland in
his own bed with his wife the same day. He would no longer have to
suffer taking the train one night and coming back the next night and having two
nights away from his own bed. <BR><BR><BR><BR>On Jul 12, 2013, at 4:40 PM, Bob
Rathke wrote:<BR><BR>> I've got half a carton of those fragile, brown paper
chips. <BR>> <BR>> ----- Original Message -----<BR>> From: "Dwight
Long" <dwightlong@verizon.net> <BR>> To: "Western PA Trolley
discussion" <pittsburgh-railways@mailman.dementix.org> <BR>> Cc:
ge13031@yahoo.com, "Dick" <hassel8@comcast.net>, 1artwheeler@gmail.com
<BR>> Sent: Friday, July 12, 2013 3:34:44 PM <BR>> Subject: Re: [PRCo] PRR
Cleveland Stations <BR>> <BR>> <BR>> Fred <BR>> <BR>> My point
exactly in response to Bob’s question about continuing to use the lakefront
yards and facilities for servicing pax equipment post 1953. That amount
would not pay for establishing trackage and servicing facilities at E. 55th
street station. <BR>> <BR>> I have OGs for most years post WW II and a few
before. From 1962 thru 1971 I have December issue for each year (plus
April and May 1971) so I can generally zero in on at least the last year of
operation of any particular train. <BR>> <BR>> For PRR the Cleveland
service was for years trains 38 and 39, THE CLEVELANDER. This ran via
Youngstown between Pittsburgh and Cleveland en route to/from NYC. In the
late 50s it was still a quite respectable train; I used it many times from
Rochester (Pa.) to da Burgh. Had sleepers (plural) and those
ultra-comfortable but poorly built P85BR coaches and a diner/lounge. By
the early 60s PRR essentially abdicated the New York-Cleveland market to NYC and
greatly downgraded 38 and 39. At the end of 1963 it still had one thru
sleeper Cleveland-NYC but coach pax had to transfer cars at Pittsburgh.
The trains only ran between between Pittsburgh and Cleveland, with the sleeper
handled on 48 and 49, THE GENERAL, between Pittsburgh and New York. By the end
of 1964, 38 and 39 had been reduced to a local train running only between
Cleveland and Youngstown at commuter hours. The next year even that
vestigial remnant was gone. It never made it to PC days. <BR>> <BR>>
The Cleveland-Washington sleeper on 38 and 39 was a casualty of the 1957-58
recession. The B&O’s Cleveland-Washington service outlasted it by
several years. <BR>> <BR>> I love to pore through the old OGs, but each
time I use those from the 50s some small bit of fragile, browned, non-acid-free
paper disintegrates! <BR>> <BR>> Dwight <BR>> <BR>> <BR>> From:
Fred Schneider <BR>> Sent: Friday, 12 July, 2013 15:00 <BR>> To: Western
PA Trolley discussion <BR>> Subject: Re: [PRCo] PRR Cleveland Stations
<BR>> I was always of the understanding that they continued to run trains out
of the lake front station. The sum you mention for a commercial building
would be around a million dollars today … not a lot of money. You
can easily dump that into a really fancy house. My thoughts on
the matter were along the lines of how fast did the east side collapse and did
the PRR want to keep running trains out of East 55th Street. <BR>> <BR>>
In 1959, when I made my first visit to Cleveland, Shaker Heights was just past
its prime. It was a great neighborhood. I went back in 1965 or
1966 and noticed that some of the elite restaurants in Shaker Square (actually
Cleveland city) were gone. It was changing. In the 1980s, I was
working in Sharon or New Castle and I said to my boss … be a beautiful day to go
take trolley pictures in the rush hour in Cleveland. At 3:00 that
afternoon Dave looked at me and said, "We're not going to get to Cleveland for
dinner if you don't pack up." Well, that evening we drove out
Kinsman Road to Shaker Square and I had a real awakening about what had happened
to the east side of the city. Ugh. I had walked from
Broadway over to the New York Central on 125th Street in Harlem around 1969 but
Kinsman Road was so bad I would not have wanted to have the car break
down. <BR>> <BR>> I was no longer paying attention to what was
happening to the mainline passenger trains in this country by 1970-1971 but
maybe Bob Rathke can tell us because he collects schedules. Was the
PennCentral still running a Pittsburgh-Cleveland or New York - Philadelphia -
Pittsburgh - Cleveland service when Amtrak was formed? <BR>>
<BR>> <BR>> <BR>> On Jul 12, 2013, at 2:21 PM, Dwight Long wrote:
<BR>> <BR>>> <BR>>> Bob <BR>>> <BR>>> Don’t know, but
certainly likely. The 1941 track map of Cleveland railways does not show
any significant auxiliary tracks at E 55th. Supposedly PRR spent $80,000
to improve the E. 55th station, which even in dollars of the year in 1953 would
not have paid for much than some interior improvements and general “sprucing
up.” So I suspect that PRR continued to use their facilities on the
lakefront as you suggest. They would have had to pay a switching crew
anyway to break up and reassemble trains, so it presumably would not have been
that much more to shuttle the consists between lakefront and 55th St.
<BR>>> <BR>>> Dwight <BR>>> <BR>>> From: Bob Rathke
<BR>>> Sent: Friday, 12 July, 2013 09:15 <BR>>> To: Western PA
Trolley discussion <BR>>> Subject: Re: [PRCo] PRR Cleveland Stations
<BR>>> <BR>>> <BR>>> Dwight, <BR>>> <BR>>>
<BR>>> <BR>>> The station may have been gone in 1958, but the
tracks, platforms and a train were still there when I took the
photo. Were th e station tracks used to store and assemble trains
that would depart from E. 55th St.? <BR>>> <BR>>> <BR>>>
<BR>>> Bob <BR>>> <BR>>> <BR>>> <BR>>> -----
Original Message ----- <BR>>> <BR>>> <BR>>> From: "Dwight
Long" <dwightlong@verizon.net> <BR>>> To: "Western PA Trolley
discussion" <pittsburgh-railways@mailman.dementix.org> <BR>>> Sent:
Friday, July 12, 2013 1:31:34 AM <BR>>> Subject: Re: [PRCo] PRR Cleveland
Stations <BR>>> <BR>>> Bob <BR>>> <BR>>> The last train
from the lakefront station, formerly Cleveland Union Depot, was 27 September
1953. After that PRR used a station at East 55th Street and Euclid Avenue,
some two plus miles from downtown Cleveland. There is a well-illustrated
write-up on the last train, plus a brief history of Union Depot, in the current
Keystone. The old station was razed in 1959. <BR>>> <BR>>>
Dwight <BR>>> <BR>>> From: Bob Rathke <BR>>> Sent: Friday, 12
July, 2013 00:03 <BR>>> To: Western PA Trolley discussion <BR>>>
Subject: Re: [PRCo] PRCo Route72 <BR>>> <BR>>> <BR>>> There
was also a Morning Steeler to Cleveland, and both the morning and afternoon
eastbound trains were also called Steelers. <BR>>> <BR>>>
<BR>>> <BR>>> PRR passenger trains didn't use CUT - they operated
out of the PRR station on West 6th St. and the lakeshore. Attached is a
photo I took of that station on 7/8/58. The view is to the west, with Lake
Erie in the background. Note the small PRR coach yard in the right center
of the photo. <BR>>> <BR>>> <BR>>> <BR>>> The PRR
downtown station was closed about a year after this photo was taken, and after
that PRR trains terminated at the E. 55th St. Station. <BR>>> <BR>>>
<BR>>> <BR>>> Non <BR>>> <BR>>> <BR>>>
<BR>>> ----- Original Message ----- <BR>>> <BR>>> <BR>>>
From: "Herb Brannon" <hrbran@cavtel.net> <BR>>> To: "Western PA
Trolley discussion" <pittsburgh-railways@mailman.dementix.org>
<BR>>> Sent: Thursday, July 11, 2013 9:57:27 PM <BR>>> Subject: Re:
[PRCo] PRCo Route72 <BR>>> <BR>>> Bob, <BR>>> I'm surprised
that a train with the name, "Afternoon Steeler" was permitted <BR>>>
inside Cleveland Union Terminal. <BR>>> <BR>>> <BR>>> On Thu,
Jul 11, 2013 at 4:52 PM, Bob Rathke <bobrathke@comcast.net> wrote:
<BR>>> <BR>>>> I watched the first westbound train to leave Penn
St ation on that bridge <BR>>>> in 1955 - the Afternoon Steeler to
Cleveland. <BR>>>> <BR>>>> ----- Original Message -----
<BR>>>> From: "Fred Schneider" <fwschneider@comcast.net>
<BR>>>> To: "Western PA Trolley discussion" < <BR>>>>
pittsburgh-railways@mailman.dementix.org> <BR>>>> Sent: Thursday,
July 11, 2013 3:26:38 PM <BR>>>> Subject: Re: [PRCo] PRCo Route72
<BR>>>> <BR>>>> Anyone else would have bought a
4-8-4. Change that. Anyone else with
<BR>>>> brains would have bought a diesel. Think of NP, GN,
Southern, ACL, SAL, <BR>>>> ATSF, even Reading … all those who proved
during WW2 how well EMD's product <BR>>>> worked. <BR>>>>
<BR>>>> <BR>>>> <BR>>>> On Jul 11, 2013, at 3:40 PM,
Dwight Long wrote: <BR>>>> <BR>>>>> <BR>>>>>
Bob <BR>>>>> <BR>>>>> Done so that T1 locos would not
stall leaving the station westbound. <BR>>>> The rigid frame caused the
drivers to bind up on the curve, and most <BR>>>> westbound trains with
T1s had to be assisted by a snapper to get out of the <BR>>>> station.
<BR>>>>> <BR>>>>> Of course before the project was
finished, so were the T1s. <BR>>>>> <BR>>>>> Dwight
<BR>>>>> <BR>>>>> From: Bob Rathke <BR>>>>>
Sent: Thursday, 11 July, 2013 12:55 <BR>>>>> To: Western PA Trolley
discussion <BR>>>>> Subject: Re: [PRCo] PRCo Route72
<BR>>>>> That bridge from the PRR station to the 6-track double-deck
bridge over <BR>>>> the Allegheny River was replaced by the current
bridge (with a more gradual <BR>>>> curve) in the spring of 1955.
<BR>>>>> <BR>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
<BR>>>>> From: "Raymond Lattner" <rlattner@pa.gov>
<BR>>>>> To: "Western PA Trolley discussion ( <BR>>>>
pittsburgh-railways@mailman.dementix.org)" < <BR>>>>
pittsburgh-railways@mailman.dementix.org> <BR>>>>> Sent:
Thursday, July 11, 2013 11:22:33 AM <BR>>>>> Subject: [PRCo]
PRCo Route72 <BR>>>>> <BR>>>>> Attached is a pic
of route 72 Bloomfield car. Penn ave. downtown. <BR>>>>>
<BR>>>>>> From <BR>>>>
http://images.library.pitt.edu/cgi-bin/i/image/image-idx?rgn1=hpicasc_ci;med=1;q1=AIS.2012.03;size=20;c=hpicasc;back=back1373559754;subview=detail;resnum=322;view=entry;lastview=thumbnail;cc=hpicasc;entryid=x-201203.1917.6503;viewid=20130206-HPICASC-0323.TIF#
<BR>>>>> <BR>>>>> Ray <BR>>>>>
<BR>>>>> <BR>>>>> <BR>>>>> --------------
next part -------------- <BR>>>>> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
<BR>>>>> URL: <BR>>>>
http://mailman.dementix.org/pipermail/pittsburgh-railways/attachments/20130711/d029ce68/attachment.html
<BR>>>>> -------------- next part --------------
<BR>>>>> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... <BR>>>>>
Name: 2013-07-11_122021.jpg <BR>>>>> Type: image/jpeg
<BR>>>>> Size: 133126 bytes <BR>>>>> Desc:
2013-07-11_122021.jpg <BR>>>>> Url : <BR>>>>
http://mailman.dementix.org/pipermail/pittsburgh-railways/attachments/20130711/d029ce68/attachment.jpg
<BR>>>>> _______________________________________________
<BR>>>>> Pittsburgh-railways mailing list <BR>>>>>
Pittsburgh-railways@mailman.dementix.org <BR>>>>>
https://mailman.dementix.org/mailman/listinfo/pittsburgh-railways
<BR>>>>> <BR>>>>> <BR>>>>>
<BR>>>>> -------------- next part --------------
<BR>>>>> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... <BR>>>>>
URL: <BR>>>>
http://mailman.dementix.org/pipermail/pittsburgh-railways/attachments/20130711/94f5bc9a/attachment.html
<BR>>>>> _______________________________________________
<BR>>>>> Pittsburgh-railways mailing list <BR>>>>>
Pittsburgh-railways@mailman.dementix.org <BR>>>>>
https://mailman.dementix.org/mailman/listinfo/pittsburgh-railways
<BR>>>>> <BR>>>>> <BR>>>>>
<BR>>>>> -------------- next part --------------
<BR>>>>> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... <BR>>>>>
URL: <BR>>>>
http://mailman.dementix.org/pipermail/pittsburgh-railways/attachments/20130711/79dd7a5e/attachment.html
<BR>>>>> _______________________________________________
<BR>>>>> Pittsburgh-railways mailing list <BR>>>>>
Pittsburgh-railways@mailman.dementix.org <BR>>>>>
https://mailman.dementix.org/mailman/listinfo/pittsburgh-railways
<BR>>>> <BR>>>> <BR>>>> <BR>>>>
<BR>>>> <BR>>>>
_______________________________________________ <BR>>>>
Pittsburgh-railways mailing list <BR>>>>
Pittsburgh-railways@mailman.dementix.org <BR>>>>
https://mailman.dementix.org/mailman/listinfo/pittsburgh-railways
<BR>>>> <BR>>>> <BR>>>> <BR>>>>
-------------- next part -------------- <BR>>>> An HTML attachment was
scrubbed... <BR>>>> URL: <BR>>>>
http://mailman.dementix.org/pipermail/pittsburgh-railways/attachments/20130711/5bd19c71/attachment.html
<BR>>>> _______________________________________________
<BR>>>> Pittsburgh-railways mailing list <BR>>>>
Pittsburgh-railways@mailman.dementix.org <BR>>>>
https://mailman.dementix.org/mailman/listinfo/pittsburgh-railways
<BR>>>> <BR>>> <BR>>> <BR>>> <BR>>> --
<BR>>> Herb Brannon <BR>>> Back In The Burgh ! <BR>>> Let's Go
Bucs <BR>>> <BR>>> <BR>>> <BR>>> -------------- next
part -------------- <BR>>> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... <BR>>>
URL:
http://mailman.dementix.org/pipermail/pittsburgh-railways/attachments/20130711/40d13063/attachment.html
<BR>>> _______________________________________________ <BR>>>
Pittsburgh-railways mailing list <BR>>>
Pittsburgh-railways@mailman.dementix.org <BR>>>
https://mailman.dementix.org/mailman/listinfo/pittsburgh-railways <BR>>>
<BR>>> <BR>>> <BR>>> -------------- next part --------------
<BR>>> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... <BR>>> URL:
http://mailman.dementix.org/pipermail/pittsburgh-railways/attachments/20130712/522ab903/attachment.html
<BR>>> -------------- next part -------------- <BR>>> A non-text
attachment was scrubbed... <BR>>> Name: PRRclevelandStation070858.JPG
<BR>>> Type: image/jpeg <BR>>> Size: 31169 bytes <BR>>> Desc:
not available <BR>>> Url :
http://mailman.dementix.org/pipermail/pittsburgh-railways/attachments/20130712/522ab903/attachment.jpe
<BR>>> _______________________________________________ <BR>>>
Pittsburgh-railways mailing list <BR>>>
Pittsburgh-railways@mailman.dementix.org <BR>>>
https://mailman.dementix.org/mailman/listinfo/pittsburgh-railways <BR>>>
<BR>>> <BR>>> <BR>>> -------------- next part --------------
<BR>>> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... <BR>>> URL:
http://mailman.dementix.org/pipermail/pittsburgh-railways/attachments/20130712/da91ee45/attachment.html
<BR>>> _______________________________________________ <BR>>>
Pittsburgh-railways mailing list <BR>>>
Pittsburgh-railways@mailman.dementix.org <BR>>>
https://mailman.dementix.org/mailman/listinfo/pittsburgh-railways <BR>>>
<BR>>> <BR>>> <BR>>> -------------- next part --------------
<BR>>> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... <BR>>> URL:
http://mailman.dementix.org/pipermail/pittsburgh-railways/attachments/20130712/b5acf57b/attachment.html
<BR>>> _______________________________________________ <BR>>>
Pittsburgh-railways mailing list <BR>>>
Pittsburgh-railways@mailman.dementix.org <BR>>>
https://mailman.dementix.org/mailman/listinfo/pittsburgh-railways <BR>>>
<BR>>> <BR>>> <BR>>> -------------- next part --------------
<BR>>> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... <BR>>> URL:
http://mailman.dementix.org/pipermail/pittsburgh-railways/attachments/20130712/958d7132/attachment.html
<BR>>> _______________________________________________ <BR>>>
Pittsburgh-railways mailing list <BR>>>
Pittsburgh-railways@mailman.dementix.org <BR>>>
https://mailman.dementix.org/mailman/listinfo/pittsburgh-railways <BR>>
<BR>> <BR>> <BR>> <BR>> <BR>>
_______________________________________________ <BR>> Pittsburgh-railways
mailing list <BR>> Pittsburgh-railways@mailman.dementix.org <BR>>
https://mailman.dementix.org/mailman/listinfo/pittsburgh-railways <BR>>
<BR>> <BR>> <BR>> -------------- next part -------------- <BR>> An
HTML attachment was scrubbed... <BR>> URL:
http://mailman.dementix.org/pipermail/pittsburgh-railways/attachments/20130712/df34a44d/attachment.html
<BR>> _______________________________________________ <BR>>
Pittsburgh-railways mailing list <BR>>
Pittsburgh-railways@mailman.dementix.org <BR>>
https://mailman.dementix.org/mailman/listinfo/pittsburgh-railways <BR>>
<BR>> <BR>> <BR>> -------------- next part --------------<BR>> An
HTML attachment was scrubbed...<BR>> URL:
http://mailman.dementix.org/pipermail/pittsburgh-railways/attachments/20130712/556016e2/attachment.html
<BR>> _______________________________________________<BR>>
Pittsburgh-railways mailing list<BR>>
Pittsburgh-railways@mailman.dementix.org<BR>>
https://mailman.dementix.org/mailman/listinfo/pittsburgh-railways<BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR>_______________________________________________<BR>Pittsburgh-railways
mailing
list<BR>Pittsburgh-railways@mailman.dementix.org<BR>https://mailman.dementix.org/mailman/listinfo/pittsburgh-railways<BR></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV>
</BODY></HTML>