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<DIV><FONT size=4>Fred</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4>My point exactly in response to Bob’s question about
continuing to use the lakefront yards and facilities for servicing pax equipment
post 1953. That amount would not pay for establishing trackage and
servicing facilities at E. 55th street station.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4>I have OGs for most years post WW II and a few before.
From 1962 thru 1971 I have December issue for each year (plus April and May
1971) so I can generally zero in on at least the last year of operation of any
particular train.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4>For PRR the Cleveland service was for years trains 38 and 39,
THE CLEVELANDER. This ran via Youngstown between Pittsburgh and Cleveland
en route to/from NYC. In the late 50s it was still a quite respectable
train; I used it many times from Rochester (Pa.) to da Burgh. Had
sleepers (plural) and those ultra-comfortable but poorly built P85BR coaches and
a diner/lounge. By the early 60s PRR essentially abdicated the New
York-Cleveland market to NYC and greatly downgraded 38 and 39. At the end
of 1963 it still had one thru sleeper Cleveland-NYC but coach pax had to
transfer cars at Pittsburgh. The trains only ran between between
Pittsburgh and Cleveland, with the sleeper handled on 48 and 49, THE GENERAL,
between Pittsburgh and New York. By the end of 1964, 38 and 39 had been reduced
to a local train running only between Cleveland and Youngstown at commuter
hours. The next year even that vestigial remnant was gone. It never
made it to PC days.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4>The Cleveland-Washington sleeper on 38 and 39 was a casualty
of the 1957-58 recession. The B&O’s Cleveland-Washington service
outlasted it by several years.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4>I love to pore through the old OGs, but each time I use those
from the 50s some small bit of fragile, browned, non-acid-free paper
disintegrates!</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4>Dwight</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4></FONT> </DIV>
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<DIV style="font-color: black"><B>From:</B> <A title=fwschneider@comcast.net
href="mailto:fwschneider@comcast.net">Fred Schneider</A> </DIV>
<DIV><B>Sent:</B> Friday, 12 July, 2013 15:00</DIV>
<DIV><B>To:</B> <A title=pittsburgh-railways@mailman.dementix.org
href="mailto:pittsburgh-railways@mailman.dementix.org">Western PA Trolley
discussion</A> </DIV>
<DIV><B>Subject:</B> Re: [PRCo] PRR Cleveland Stations</DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV>
<DIV
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<DIV
style="FONT-SIZE: small; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri'; FONT-WEIGHT: normal; COLOR: #000000; FONT-STYLE: normal; TEXT-DECORATION: none; DISPLAY: inline">I
was always of the understanding that they continued to run trains out of the
lake front station. The sum you mention for a commercial building would be
around a million dollars today … not a lot of money. You can easily
dump that into a really fancy house. My thoughts on the matter
were along the lines of how fast did the east side collapse and did the PRR want
to keep running trains out of East 55th Street.<BR><BR>In 1959, when I made my
first visit to Cleveland, Shaker Heights was just past its prime. It
was a great neighborhood. I went back in 1965 or 1966 and noticed that
some of the elite restaurants in Shaker Square (actually Cleveland city) were
gone. It was changing. In the 1980s, I was working in Sharon or New
Castle and I said to my boss … be a beautiful day to go take trolley pictures in
the rush hour in Cleveland. At 3:00 that afternoon Dave looked at me
and said, "We're not going to get to Cleveland for dinner if you don't pack
up." Well, that evening we drove out Kinsman Road to Shaker Square
and I had a real awakening about what had happened to the east side of the
city. Ugh. I had walked from Broadway over to the New
York Central on 125th Street in Harlem around 1969 but Kinsman Road was so bad I
would not have wanted to have the car break down. <BR><BR>I was no
longer paying attention to what was happening to the mainline passenger trains
in this country by 1970-1971 but maybe Bob Rathke can tell us because he
collects schedules. Was the PennCentral still running a
Pittsburgh-Cleveland or New York - Philadelphia - Pittsburgh - Cleveland service
when Amtrak was formed? <BR><BR><BR><BR>On Jul 12, 2013, at 2:21 PM,
Dwight Long wrote:<BR><BR>> <BR>> Bob<BR>> <BR>> Don’t know, but
certainly likely. The 1941 track map of Cleveland railways does not show
any significant auxiliary tracks at E 55th. Supposedly PRR spent $80,000
to improve the E. 55th station, which even in dollars of the year in 1953 would
not have paid for much than some interior improvements and general “sprucing
up.” So I suspect that PRR continued to use their facilities on the
lakefront as you suggest. They would have had to pay a switching crew
anyway to break up and reassemble trains, so it presumably would not have been
that much more to shuttle the consists between lakefront and 55th St.<BR>>
<BR>> Dwight<BR>> <BR>> From: Bob Rathke <BR>> Sent: Friday, 12
July, 2013 09:15<BR>> To: Western PA Trolley discussion <BR>> Subject: Re:
[PRCo] PRR Cleveland Stations<BR>> <BR>> <BR>> Dwight, <BR>>
<BR>> <BR>> <BR>> The station may have been gone in 1958, but the
tracks, platforms and a train were still there when I took the
photo. Were th e station tracks used to store and assemble trains
that would depart from E. 55th St.? <BR>> <BR>> <BR>> <BR>> Bob
<BR>> <BR>> <BR>> <BR>> ----- Original Message -----<BR>>
<BR>> <BR>> From: "Dwight Long" <dwightlong@verizon.net> <BR>>
To: "Western PA Trolley discussion"
<pittsburgh-railways@mailman.dementix.org> <BR>> Sent: Friday, July 12,
2013 1:31:34 AM <BR>> Subject: Re: [PRCo] PRR Cleveland Stations <BR>>
<BR>> Bob <BR>> <BR>> The last train from the lakefront station,
formerly Cleveland Union Depot, was 27 September 1953. After that PRR used
a station at East 55th Street and Euclid Avenue, some two plus miles from
downtown Cleveland. There is a well-illustrated write-up on the last
train, plus a brief history of Union Depot, in the current Keystone. The
old station was razed in 1959. <BR>> <BR>> Dwight <BR>> <BR>> From:
Bob Rathke <BR>> Sent: Friday, 12 July, 2013 00:03 <BR>> To: Western PA
Trolley discussion <BR>> Subject: Re: [PRCo] PRCo Route72 <BR>> <BR>>
<BR>> There was also a Morning Steeler to Cleveland, and both the morning and
afternoon eastbound trains were also called Steelers. <BR>> <BR>> <BR>>
<BR>> PRR passenger trains didn't use CUT - they operated out of the PRR
station on West 6th St. and the lakeshore. Attached is a photo I took of
that station on 7/8/58. The view is to the west, with Lake Erie in the
background. Note the small PRR coach yard in the right center of the
photo. <BR>> <BR>> <BR>> <BR>> The PRR downtown station was closed
about a year after this photo was taken, and after that PRR trains terminated at
the E. 55th St. Station. <BR>> <BR>> <BR>> <BR>> Non <BR>>
<BR>> <BR>> <BR>> ----- Original Message ----- <BR>> <BR>>
<BR>> From: "Herb Brannon" <hrbran@cavtel.net> <BR>> To: "Western PA
Trolley discussion" <pittsburgh-railways@mailman.dementix.org> <BR>>
Sent: Thursday, July 11, 2013 9:57:27 PM <BR>> Subject: Re: [PRCo] PRCo
Route72 <BR>> <BR>> Bob, <BR>> I'm surprised that a train with the
name, "Afternoon Steeler" was permitted <BR>> inside Cleveland Union
Terminal. <BR>> <BR>> <BR>> On Thu, Jul 11, 2013 at 4:52 PM, Bob Rathke
<bobrathke@comcast.net> wrote: <BR>> <BR>>> I watched the first
westbound train to leave Penn St ation on that bridge <BR>>> in 1955 - the
Afternoon Steeler to Cleveland. <BR>>> <BR>>> ----- Original Message
----- <BR>>> From: "Fred Schneider" <fwschneider@comcast.net>
<BR>>> To: "Western PA Trolley discussion" < <BR>>>
pittsburgh-railways@mailman.dementix.org> <BR>>> Sent: Thursday, July
11, 2013 3:26:38 PM <BR>>> Subject: Re: [PRCo] PRCo Route72
<BR>>> <BR>>> Anyone else would have bought a
4-8-4. Change that. Anyone else with <BR>>>
brains would have bought a diesel. Think of NP, GN, Southern, ACL,
SAL, <BR>>> ATSF, even Reading … all those who proved during WW2 how well
EMD's product <BR>>> worked. <BR>>> <BR>>> <BR>>>
<BR>>> On Jul 11, 2013, at 3:40 PM, Dwight Long wrote: <BR>>>
<BR>>>> <BR>>>> Bob <BR>>>> <BR>>>> Done so
that T1 locos would not stall leaving the station westbound. <BR>>> The
rigid frame caused the drivers to bind up on the curve, and most <BR>>>
westbound trains with T1s had to be assisted by a snapper to get out of the
<BR>>> station. <BR>>>> <BR>>>> Of course before the
project was finished, so were the T1s. <BR>>>> <BR>>>> Dwight
<BR>>>> <BR>>>> From: Bob Rathke <BR>>>> Sent:
Thursday, 11 July, 2013 12:55 <BR>>>> To: Western PA Trolley discussion
<BR>>>> Subject: Re: [PRCo] PRCo Route72 <BR>>>> That bridge
from the PRR station to the 6-track double-deck bridge over <BR>>> the
Allegheny River was replaced by the current bridge (with a more gradual
<BR>>> curve) in the spring of 1955. <BR>>>> <BR>>>>
----- Original Message ----- <BR>>>> From: "Raymond Lattner"
<rlattner@pa.gov> <BR>>>> To: "Western PA Trolley discussion (
<BR>>> pittsburgh-railways@mailman.dementix.org)" < <BR>>>
pittsburgh-railways@mailman.dementix.org> <BR>>>> Sent: Thursday,
July 11, 2013 11:22:33 AM <BR>>>> Subject: [PRCo] PRCo Route72
<BR>>>> <BR>>>> Attached is a pic of route 72 Bloomfield car.
Penn ave. downtown. <BR>>>> <BR>>>>> From <BR>>>
http://images.library.pitt.edu/cgi-bin/i/image/image-idx?rgn1=hpicasc_ci;med=1;q1=AIS.2012.03;size=20;c=hpicasc;back=back1373559754;subview=detail;resnum=322;view=entry;lastview=thumbnail;cc=hpicasc;entryid=x-201203.1917.6503;viewid=20130206-HPICASC-0323.TIF#
<BR>>>> <BR>>>> Ray <BR>>>> <BR>>>>
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<BR>> <BR>> <BR>> <BR>> -- <BR>> Herb Brannon <BR>> Back In
The Burgh ! <BR>> Let's Go Bucs <BR>> <BR>> <BR>> <BR>>
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