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<DIV><FONT size=4>Bob</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4>While there had been some branch line pax train offs before
the war (such as Rochester,Pa., to East Liverpool, Ohio, thru my home town, and
the entire Waynesburg & Washington pax service), the big impetus on PRR
started in the aftermath of their shocking loss in 1946. For example, all
but the main line DelMarVa trains came off by 1948 or maybe early 49. So did the
trains to Oxford, Pa. Many such examples. This wave of abandonments
was pretty much reaching its conclusion by 1951. I think the B&O
started the process a bit later—plus they did not have as many
candidates.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4>Starting in the mid-fifties and reaching its climax in the
1957-58 recession, the PRR started going after secondary main line trains, as
well as secondary trains on primary main lines. The secondary main line
train-offs were pretty well complete well before the PC merger, The Buffalo line
was an exception—a rump service ran tri-weekly right up til AMTK, but that was
not for want of trying by PRR and later PC. The PRR in early 1954 finalized an
internal plan for line and service abandonments which was forecast to be
completed in five years but proved impossible to execute in that time and was
extended to 1963.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4>As Fred said correctly, the advent of jet aircraft in the late
50s early 60s accentuated the process of axing secondary trains on main
lines. PRR’s PITTSBURGHER is a good example—it was all sleeper (most of
the time) and ran very heavy up to the late 50s. When jets started serving
the Pittsburgh-NYC market, it dwindled rapidly. At its end in 1964 it was
down to only three sleepers (still no coaches) and those could easily be added
or subtracted to through trains that passed through Pittsburgh.
Theoretically the service was the same as one could board the sleepers around 9
PM in Pittsburgh and stay in them til a civilized hour in the morning, but it
was just not the same service as the PITTSBURGHER. My father usually made
two trips a month to NYC and he had been a regular user of the PITTSBURGHER, but
after it came off he switched to air. It was in the same time frame that
the CLEVELANDER’s consist diminished rapidly and soon after that PRR severely
downgraded and ultimately axed it.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4>The last days of operation for the STEELERS were 7 September
1957 for the morning version and 28 June 1958 for the afternoon
version.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4>Dwight</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4></FONT> </DIV>
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<DIV style="font-color: black"><B>From:</B> <A title=bobrathke@comcast.net
href="mailto:bobrathke@comcast.net">Bob Rathke</A> </DIV>
<DIV><B>Sent:</B> Friday, 12 July, 2013 18:02</DIV>
<DIV><B>To:</B> <A title=pittsburgh-railways@mailman.dementix.org
href="mailto:pittsburgh-railways@mailman.dementix.org">Western PA Trolley
discussion</A> </DIV>
<DIV><B>Subject:</B> Re: [PRCo] PRR Cleveland Stations</DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV>
<DIV
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<DIV
style="FONT-SIZE: small; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri'; FONT-WEIGHT: normal; COLOR: #000000; FONT-STYLE: normal; TEXT-DECORATION: none; DISPLAY: inline"><BR><BR>Dwight,
<BR><BR><BR><BR>I just checked two PRR systrem timetable from both ends of the
era we've been discussing: <BR><BR><BR><BR>- 12/2/51 timetable - no coaches on
The General. The C levelander was a through train from Cleveland to New York,
and carried sleepers, lounge and dining cars, and coaches. The
Pittsburgh-Cleveland timetable also shows the Steelers and a numbered (no
name) train, plus several trains over only parts of the Youngstown line
(probably partial schedules of trains that ran via Canton ). <BR><BR><BR><BR>-
2/9/64 timetable - The General carried coaches but they were all reserved for a
fee. <BR><BR><BR><BR>Both the PRR and B&O began abandoning branch and
secondary line trains around 1951, and then started to drop and combine mainline
trains in 1957-58. <BR><BR><BR><BR>Bob <BR><BR><BR>----- Original Message
-----<BR><BR><BR>From: "Dwight Long" <dwightlong@verizon.net> <BR>To:
"Western PA Trolley discussion" <pittsburgh-railways@mailman.dementix.org>
<BR>Sent: Friday, July 12, 2013 4:14:46 PM <BR>Subject: Re: [PRCo] PRR Cleveland
Stations <BR><BR>Bob <BR><BR>The combination of THE CLEVELANDER’s cars (sleeper
at least, did coaches ever run thru on the GENERAL?) did not take place until
much later than the early 50s. As late as 1958 38 and 39 were still
running through as a separate train, although it was combined with the ADMIRAL
westbound and train 68 (Harrisburg-Philly) eastbound. The CLEVELANDER in
those days had its own diner/lounge, which ran through. <BR><BR>Both the morning
and afternoon STEELERS, in addition to the equipment you showed, carried a
diner/parlor car. These trains ( 361-2-3-4) were still in the schedule at the
end of 1956 and I presume were casualties of the 57-58 recession. It
appears they may have carried the parlors until the end, or close to it. I
do not have a 1957 OG, but all were gone by July 1958. I saw these trains,
or at least the afternoon version, quite often in Pittsburgh but never rode them
as they did not call at Rochester (except for the morning westbound, which did
me no good!). It appeared PRR was trying to be competitive in this market
up to the recession. <BR><BR>Dwight <BR><BR>From: Bob Rathke <BR>Sent: Friday,
12 July, 2013 16:34 <BR>To: Western PA Trolley discussion <BR>Subject: Re:
[PRCo] PRR Cleveland Stations <BR><BR><BR>Through the first half of the 1950's
the PRR had three trains each way between Pgh. and Cleveland: the Morning
and Afternoon Steelers (coaches, and earlier a lounge car) and the
Clevelander. Between Cleveland and Pittsburgh (via
Youngstown) the Clevelander carried a sleeping car and a coach, and east
of Pittsburgh these trains were combined with The General which had
sleepers, diner and lounge car. <BR><BR><BR><BR>The Clevelander was in the
2/9/64 timetable, but was not in the 4/26/64 timetable. I checked
timetables going back to 1951, and all of them identify the Cleveland Station as
si mply "Pen na. Station" - no street address, although in the 1950's
timetables, mileage numbers indicate that "Penna. Station" was west of "Euclid
Ave. Station"; I couldn't find mention of the West 6th St. address in any of the
timetables . In the late 1950's and early 60's timetables the
address and phone number for "Penna Station" in Cleveland wa s - get this
- the Grant St. and Liberty Ave Station in Pgh. - I assume that by that
time the Cleveland station was minimally staffed, if at all. The
timetables were only partially helpful in solving this one. <BR><BR><BR><BR>The
other Pgh.-Cleveland service was via the B&O (plus the B&O/P&LE/Erie
connections via Youngstown). The B&O train from Cleveland to
Baltimore was the Cleveland Night Express which was combined with/split
from other B&O through trains east of Pittsburgh. From Pgh. to
Cleveland, The Cleveland Night Express carried a sleeper, lounge car and
coach. This train was i n the October, 1962 timetable, but was not in the
1/22/63 timetable. <BR><BR><BR><BR>Bob <BR><BR><BR><BR>----- Original Message
----- <BR><BR><BR>From: "Fred Schneider" <fwschneider@comcast.net> <BR>To:
"Western PA Trolley discussion" <pittsburgh-railways@mailman.dementix.org>
<BR>Sent: Friday, July 12, 2013 2:00:29 PM <BR>Subject: Re: [PRCo] PRR Cleveland
Stations <BR><BR>I was always of the understanding that they continued to run
trains out of the lake front station. The sum you mention for a commercial
building would be around a million dollars today … not a lot of
money. You can easily dump that into a really fancy
house. My thoughts on the matter were along the lines of how
fast did the east side collapse and did the PRR want to keep running trains out
of East 55th Street. <BR><BR>In 1959, when I made my first visit to Cleveland,
Shaker Heights was just past its prime. It was a great
neighborhood. I went back in 1965 or 1966 and noticed that some of the
elite restaurants in Shaker Square (actually Cleveland city) were gone. It
was changing. In the 1980s, I was working in Sharon or New Castle and I
said to my boss … be a beautiful day to go take trolley pictures in the rush
hour in Cleveland. At 3:00 that afternoon Dave looked at me and
said, "We're not going to get to Cleveland for dinner if you don't pack
up." Well, that evening we drove out Kinsman Road to Shaker Square
and I had a real awakening about what had happened to the east side of the
city. Ugh. I had walked from Broadway over to the New
York Central on 125th Street in Harlem around 1969 but Kinsman Road was so bad I
would not have wanted to have the car break down. <BR><BR>I was no
longer paying attention to what was happening to the mainline passenger trains
in this country by 1970-1971 but maybe Bob Rathke can tell us because he
collects schedules. Was the PennCentral still running a
Pittsburgh-Cleveland or New York - Philadelphia - Pittsburgh - Cleveland service
when Amtrak was formed? <BR><BR><BR><BR>On Jul 12, 2013, at 2:21 PM,
Dwight Long wrote: <BR><BR>> <BR>> Bob <BR>> <BR>> Don’t know, but
certainly likely. The 1941 track map of Cleveland railways does not show
any significant auxiliary tracks at E 55th. Supposedly PRR spent $80,000
to improve the E. 55th station, which even in dollars of the year in 1953 would
not have paid for much than some interior improvements and general “sprucing
up.” So I suspect that PRR continued to use their facilities on the
lakefront as you suggest. They would have had to pay a switching crew
anyway to break up and reassemble trains, so it presumably would not have been
that much more to shuttle the consists between lakefront and 55th St. <BR>>
<BR>> Dwight <BR>> <BR>> From: Bob Rathke <BR>> Sent: Friday, 12
July, 2013 09:15 <BR>> To: Western PA Trolley discussion <BR>> Subject:
Re: [PRCo] PRR Cleveland Stations <BR>> <BR>> <BR>> Dwight, <BR>>
<BR>> <BR>> <BR>> The station may have been gone in 1958, but the
tracks, platforms and a train were still there when I took the
photo. Were th e station tracks used to store and assemble trains
that would depart from E. 55th St.? <BR>> <BR>> <BR>> <BR>> Bob
<BR>> <BR>> <BR>> <BR>> ----- Original Message ----- <BR>>
<BR>> <BR>> From: "Dwight Long" <dwightlong@verizon.net> <BR>>
To: "Western PA Trolley discussion"
<pittsburgh-railways@mailman.dementix.org> <BR>> Sent: Friday, July 12,
2013 1:31:34 AM <BR>> Subject: Re: [PRCo] PRR Cleveland Stations <BR>>
<BR>> Bob <BR>> <BR>> The last train from the lakefront station,
formerly Cleveland Union Depot, was 27 September 1953. After that PRR used
a station at East 55th Street and Euclid Avenue, some two plus miles from
downtown Cleveland. There is a well-illustrated write-up on the last
train, plus a brief history of Union Depot, in the current Keystone. The
old station was razed in 1959. <BR>> <BR>> Dwight <BR>> <BR>> From:
Bob Rathke <BR>> Sent: Friday, 12 July, 2013 00:03 <BR>> To: Western PA
Trolley discussion <BR>> Subject: Re: [PRCo] PRCo Route72 <BR>> <BR>>
<BR>> There was also a Morning Steeler to Cleveland, and both the morning and
afternoon eastbound trains were also called Steelers. <BR>> <BR>> <BR>>
<BR>> PRR passenger trains didn't use CUT - they operated out of the PRR
station on West 6th St. and the lakeshore. Attached is a photo I took of
that station on 7/8/58. The view is to the west, with Lake Erie in the
background. Note the small PRR coach yard in the right center of the
photo. <BR>> <BR>> <BR>> <BR>> The PRR downtown station was closed
about a year after this photo was taken, and after that PRR trains terminated at
the E. 55th St. Station. <BR>> <BR>> <BR>> <BR>> Non <BR>>
<BR>> <BR>> <BR>> ----- Original Message ----- <BR>> <BR>>
<BR>> From: "Herb Brannon" <hrbran@cavtel.net> <BR>> To: "Western PA
Trolley discussion" <pittsburgh-railways@mailman.dementix.org> <BR>>
Sent: Thursday, July 11, 2013 9:57:27 PM <BR>> Subject: Re: [PRCo] PRCo
Route72 <BR>> <BR>> Bob, <BR>> I'm surprised that a train with the
name, "Afternoon Steeler" was permitted <BR>> inside Cleveland Union
Terminal. <BR>> <BR>> <BR>> On Thu, Jul 11, 2013 at 4:52 PM, Bob Rathke
<bobrathke@comcast.net> wrote: <BR>> <BR>>> I watched the first
westbound train to leave Penn St ation on that bridge <BR>>> in 1955 - the
Afternoon Steeler to Cleveland. <BR>>> <BR>>> ----- Original Message
----- <BR>>> From: "Fred Schneider" <fwschneider@comcast.net>
<BR>>> To: "Western PA Trolley discussion" < <BR>>>
pittsburgh-railways@mailman.dementix.org> <BR>>> Sent: Thursday, July
11, 2013 3:26:38 PM <BR>>> Subject: Re: [PRCo] PRCo Route72
<BR>>> <BR>>> Anyone else would have bought a
4-8-4. Change that. Anyone else with <BR>>>
brains would have bought a diesel. Think of NP, GN, Southern, ACL,
SAL, <BR>>> ATSF, even Reading … all those who proved during WW2 how well
EMD's product <BR>>> worked. <BR>>> <BR>>> <BR>>>
<BR>>> On Jul 11, 2013, at 3:40 PM, Dwight Long wrote: <BR>>>
<BR>>>> <BR>>>> Bob <BR>>>> <BR>>>> Done so
that T1 locos would not stall leaving the station westbound. <BR>>> The
rigid frame caused the drivers to bind up on the curve, and most <BR>>>
westbound trains with T1s had to be assisted by a snapper to get out of the
<BR>>> station. <BR>>>> <BR>>>> Of course before the
project was finished, so were the T1s. <BR>>>> <BR>>>> Dwight
<BR>>>> <BR>>>> From: Bob Rathke <BR>>>> Sent:
Thursday, 11 July, 2013 12:55 <BR>>>> To: Western PA Trolley discussion
<BR>>>> Subject: Re: [PRCo] PRCo Route72 <BR>>>> That bridge
from the PRR station to the 6-track double-deck bridge over <BR>>> the
Allegheny River was replaced by the current bridge (with a more gradual
<BR>>> curve) in the spring of 1955. <BR>>>> <BR>>>>
----- Original Message ----- <BR>>>> From: "Raymond Lattner"
<rlattner@pa.gov> <BR>>>> To: "Western PA Trolley discussion (
<BR>>> pittsburgh-railways@mailman.dementix.org)" < <BR>>>
pittsburgh-railways@mailman.dementix.org> <BR>>>> Sent: Thursday,
July 11, 2013 11:22:33 AM <BR>>>> Subject: [PRCo] PRCo Route72
<BR>>>> <BR>>>> Attached is a pic of route 72 Bloomfield car.
Penn ave. downtown. <BR>>>> <BR>>>>> From <BR>>>
http://images.library.pitt.edu/cgi-bin/i/image/image-idx?rgn1=hpicasc_ci;med=1;q1=AIS.2012.03;size=20;c=hpicasc;back=back1373559754;subview=detail;resnum=322;view=entry;lastview=thumbnail;cc=hpicasc;entryid=x-201203.1917.6503;viewid=20130206-HPICASC-0323.TIF#
<BR>>>> <BR>>>> Ray <BR>>>> <BR>>>>
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_______________________________________________ <BR>>> Pittsburgh-railways
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<BR>> <BR>> <BR>> <BR>> -- <BR>> Herb Brannon <BR>> Back In
The Burgh ! <BR>> Let's Go Bucs <BR>> <BR>> <BR>> <BR>>
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