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<DIV><FONT size=4 face="Century Gothic">Bob</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4>The combination of THE CLEVELANDER’s cars (sleeper at least,
did coaches ever run thru on the GENERAL?) did not take place until much later
than the early 50s. As late as 1958 38 and 39 were still running through
as a separate train, although it was combined with the ADMIRAL westbound and
train 68 (Harrisburg-Philly) eastbound. The CLEVELANDER in those days had
its own diner/lounge, which ran through.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4>Both the morning and afternoon STEELERS, in addition to the
equipment you showed, carried a diner/parlor car. These trains ( 361-2-3-4) were
still in the schedule at the end of 1956 and I presume were casualties of the
57-58 recession. It appears they may have carried the parlors until the
end, or close to it. I do not have a 1957 OG, but all were gone by July
1958. I saw these trains, or at least the afternoon version, quite often
in Pittsburgh but never rode them as they did not call at Rochester (except for
the morning westbound, which did me no good!). It appeared PRR was trying
to be competitive in this market up to the recession.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4>Dwight</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
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<DIV style="font-color: black"><B>From:</B> <A title=bobrathke@comcast.net
href="mailto:bobrathke@comcast.net">Bob Rathke</A> </DIV>
<DIV><B>Sent:</B> Friday, 12 July, 2013 16:34</DIV>
<DIV><B>To:</B> <A title=pittsburgh-railways@mailman.dementix.org
href="mailto:pittsburgh-railways@mailman.dementix.org">Western PA Trolley
discussion</A> </DIV>
<DIV><B>Subject:</B> Re: [PRCo] PRR Cleveland Stations</DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV>
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style="FONT-SIZE: small; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri'; FONT-WEIGHT: normal; COLOR: #000000; FONT-STYLE: normal; TEXT-DECORATION: none; DISPLAY: inline"><BR><BR>Through
the first half of the 1950's the PRR had three trains each way between
Pgh. and Cleveland: the Morning and Afternoon Steelers (coaches, and earlier a
lounge car) and the Clevelander. Between Cleveland and
Pittsburgh (via Youngstown) the Clevelander carried a sleeping car and a
coach, and east of Pittsburgh these trains were combined with The
General which had sleepers, diner and lounge car.
<BR><BR><BR><BR>The Clevelander was in the 2/9/64 timetable, but was not in the
4/26/64 timetable. I checked timetables going back to 1951, and all
of them identify the Cleveland Station as si mply "Pen na. Station" - no street
address, although in the 1950's timetables, mileage numbers indicate that
"Penna. Station" was west of "Euclid Ave. Station"; I couldn't find mention of
the West 6th St. address in any of the timetables . In the late 1950's and
early 60's timetables the address and phone number for "Penna
Station" in Cleveland wa s - get this - the Grant St. and Liberty Ave
Station in Pgh. - I assume that by that time the Cleveland station was minimally
staffed, if at all. The timetables were only partially helpful in solving
this one. <BR><BR><BR><BR>The other Pgh.-Cleveland service was via the B&O
(plus the B&O/P&LE/Erie connections via Youngstown). The B&O
train from Cleveland to Baltimore was the Cleveland Night Express which
was combined with/split from other B&O through trains east of
Pittsburgh. From Pgh. to Cleveland, The Cleveland Night Express carried a
sleeper, lounge car and coach. This train was i n the October, 1962
timetable, but was not in the 1/22/63 timetable. <BR><BR><BR><BR>Bob
<BR><BR><BR><BR>----- Original Message -----<BR><BR><BR>From: "Fred Schneider"
<fwschneider@comcast.net> <BR>To: "Western PA Trolley discussion"
<pittsburgh-railways@mailman.dementix.org> <BR>Sent: Friday, July 12, 2013
2:00:29 PM <BR>Subject: Re: [PRCo] PRR Cleveland Stations <BR><BR>I was always
of the understanding that they continued to run trains out of the lake front
station. The sum you mention for a commercial building would be around a
million dollars today … not a lot of money. You can easily dump that
into a really fancy house. My thoughts on the matter were
along the lines of how fast did the east side collapse and did the PRR want to
keep running trains out of East 55th Street. <BR><BR>In 1959, when I made my
first visit to Cleveland, Shaker Heights was just past its prime. It
was a great neighborhood. I went back in 1965 or 1966 and noticed that
some of the elite restaurants in Shaker Square (actually Cleveland city) were
gone. It was changing. In the 1980s, I was working in Sharon or New
Castle and I said to my boss … be a beautiful day to go take trolley pictures in
the rush hour in Cleveland. At 3:00 that afternoon Dave looked at me
and said, "We're not going to get to Cleveland for dinner if you don't pack
up." Well, that evening we drove out Kinsman Road to Shaker Square
and I had a real awakening about what had happened to the east side of the
city. Ugh. I had walked from Broadway over to the New
York Central on 125th Street in Harlem around 1969 but Kinsman Road was so bad I
would not have wanted to have the car break down. <BR><BR>I was no
longer paying attention to what was happening to the mainline passenger trains
in this country by 1970-1971 but maybe Bob Rathke can tell us because he
collects schedules. Was the PennCentral still running a
Pittsburgh-Cleveland or New York - Philadelphia - Pittsburgh - Cleveland service
when Amtrak was formed? <BR><BR><BR><BR>On Jul 12, 2013, at 2:21 PM,
Dwight Long wrote: <BR><BR>> <BR>> Bob <BR>> <BR>> Don’t know, but
certainly likely. The 1941 track map of Cleveland railways does not show
any significant auxiliary tracks at E 55th. Supposedly PRR spent $80,000
to improve the E. 55th station, which even in dollars of the year in 1953 would
not have paid for much than some interior improvements and general “sprucing
up.” So I suspect that PRR continued to use their facilities on the
lakefront as you suggest. They would have had to pay a switching crew
anyway to break up and reassemble trains, so it presumably would not have been
that much more to shuttle the consists between lakefront and 55th St. <BR>>
<BR>> Dwight <BR>> <BR>> From: Bob Rathke <BR>> Sent: Friday, 12
July, 2013 09:15 <BR>> To: Western PA Trolley discussion <BR>> Subject:
Re: [PRCo] PRR Cleveland Stations <BR>> <BR>> <BR>> Dwight, <BR>>
<BR>> <BR>> <BR>> The station may have been gone in 1958, but the
tracks, platforms and a train were still there when I took the
photo. Were th e station tracks used to store and assemble trains
that would depart from E. 55th St.? <BR>> <BR>> <BR>> <BR>> Bob
<BR>> <BR>> <BR>> <BR>> ----- Original Message ----- <BR>>
<BR>> <BR>> From: "Dwight Long" <dwightlong@verizon.net> <BR>>
To: "Western PA Trolley discussion"
<pittsburgh-railways@mailman.dementix.org> <BR>> Sent: Friday, July 12,
2013 1:31:34 AM <BR>> Subject: Re: [PRCo] PRR Cleveland Stations <BR>>
<BR>> Bob <BR>> <BR>> The last train from the lakefront station,
formerly Cleveland Union Depot, was 27 September 1953. After that PRR used
a station at East 55th Street and Euclid Avenue, some two plus miles from
downtown Cleveland. There is a well-illustrated write-up on the last
train, plus a brief history of Union Depot, in the current Keystone. The
old station was razed in 1959. <BR>> <BR>> Dwight <BR>> <BR>> From:
Bob Rathke <BR>> Sent: Friday, 12 July, 2013 00:03 <BR>> To: Western PA
Trolley discussion <BR>> Subject: Re: [PRCo] PRCo Route72 <BR>> <BR>>
<BR>> There was also a Morning Steeler to Cleveland, and both the morning and
afternoon eastbound trains were also called Steelers. <BR>> <BR>> <BR>>
<BR>> PRR passenger trains didn't use CUT - they operated out of the PRR
station on West 6th St. and the lakeshore. Attached is a photo I took of
that station on 7/8/58. The view is to the west, with Lake Erie in the
background. Note the small PRR coach yard in the right center of the
photo. <BR>> <BR>> <BR>> <BR>> The PRR downtown station was closed
about a year after this photo was taken, and after that PRR trains terminated at
the E. 55th St. Station. <BR>> <BR>> <BR>> <BR>> Non <BR>>
<BR>> <BR>> <BR>> ----- Original Message ----- <BR>> <BR>>
<BR>> From: "Herb Brannon" <hrbran@cavtel.net> <BR>> To: "Western PA
Trolley discussion" <pittsburgh-railways@mailman.dementix.org> <BR>>
Sent: Thursday, July 11, 2013 9:57:27 PM <BR>> Subject: Re: [PRCo] PRCo
Route72 <BR>> <BR>> Bob, <BR>> I'm surprised that a train with the
name, "Afternoon Steeler" was permitted <BR>> inside Cleveland Union
Terminal. <BR>> <BR>> <BR>> On Thu, Jul 11, 2013 at 4:52 PM, Bob Rathke
<bobrathke@comcast.net> wrote: <BR>> <BR>>> I watched the first
westbound train to leave Penn St ation on that bridge <BR>>> in 1955 - the
Afternoon Steeler to Cleveland. <BR>>> <BR>>> ----- Original Message
----- <BR>>> From: "Fred Schneider" <fwschneider@comcast.net>
<BR>>> To: "Western PA Trolley discussion" < <BR>>>
pittsburgh-railways@mailman.dementix.org> <BR>>> Sent: Thursday, July
11, 2013 3:26:38 PM <BR>>> Subject: Re: [PRCo] PRCo Route72
<BR>>> <BR>>> Anyone else would have bought a
4-8-4. Change that. Anyone else with <BR>>>
brains would have bought a diesel. Think of NP, GN, Southern, ACL,
SAL, <BR>>> ATSF, even Reading … all those who proved during WW2 how well
EMD's product <BR>>> worked. <BR>>> <BR>>> <BR>>>
<BR>>> On Jul 11, 2013, at 3:40 PM, Dwight Long wrote: <BR>>>
<BR>>>> <BR>>>> Bob <BR>>>> <BR>>>> Done so
that T1 locos would not stall leaving the station westbound. <BR>>> The
rigid frame caused the drivers to bind up on the curve, and most <BR>>>
westbound trains with T1s had to be assisted by a snapper to get out of the
<BR>>> station. <BR>>>> <BR>>>> Of course before the
project was finished, so were the T1s. <BR>>>> <BR>>>> Dwight
<BR>>>> <BR>>>> From: Bob Rathke <BR>>>> Sent:
Thursday, 11 July, 2013 12:55 <BR>>>> To: Western PA Trolley discussion
<BR>>>> Subject: Re: [PRCo] PRCo Route72 <BR>>>> That bridge
from the PRR station to the 6-track double-deck bridge over <BR>>> the
Allegheny River was replaced by the current bridge (with a more gradual
<BR>>> curve) in the spring of 1955. <BR>>>> <BR>>>>
----- Original Message ----- <BR>>>> From: "Raymond Lattner"
<rlattner@pa.gov> <BR>>>> To: "Western PA Trolley discussion (
<BR>>> pittsburgh-railways@mailman.dementix.org)" < <BR>>>
pittsburgh-railways@mailman.dementix.org> <BR>>>> Sent: Thursday,
July 11, 2013 11:22:33 AM <BR>>>> Subject: [PRCo] PRCo Route72
<BR>>>> <BR>>>> Attached is a pic of route 72 Bloomfield car.
Penn ave. downtown. <BR>>>> <BR>>>>> From <BR>>>
http://images.library.pitt.edu/cgi-bin/i/image/image-idx?rgn1=hpicasc_ci;med=1;q1=AIS.2012.03;size=20;c=hpicasc;back=back1373559754;subview=detail;resnum=322;view=entry;lastview=thumbnail;cc=hpicasc;entryid=x-201203.1917.6503;viewid=20130206-HPICASC-0323.TIF#
<BR>>>> <BR>>>> Ray <BR>>>> <BR>>>>
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<BR>> <BR>> <BR>> <BR>> -- <BR>> Herb Brannon <BR>> Back In
The Burgh ! <BR>> Let's Go Bucs <BR>> <BR>> <BR>> <BR>>
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