<html><head></head><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; "><div>It is possible that it began to slow down around 1912 but I have a problem believing that. About that time we were beginning to feed the allied powers with arms for World War I even though we did not get into the war ourselves before 1917-1918. I could believe after the war but the influx of people into the county does not support that conjecture. Of course we had no birth control pills then … only bitchy wives. :<) </div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div>If you look at the county growth rates, it slows down dramatically around 1920. But we also have to remember that rates are highest with small populations and lowest with large populations. If we increase the population from 10 people to 20 people, we have a 100% growth rate. But if it increases from 100 to 120 it is only 20%, and 1000 to 1020 is only 2%. In each case we have gone up 20 people but the rate keeps diminishing. With small towns or counties, you will typically have large rates of change.</div><div><br></div><div>Fully expecting the "dreaded Encartis" to swipe this chart, I am enclosing a link to Wikipedia for most of you. You will find a county population chart there. For Ed, Dwight, Derrick, John, the chart is here.</div><div><br></div><div><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allegheny_County,_Pennsylvania">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allegheny_County,_Pennsylvania</a></div><div><br></div><div><div>In the 1880s Allegheny County added about 196,000 people, another 224,000 in the 1890s, in the first decade of the 1900s add 243,000, in the teens … 167,000 … yes growth has slowed, but then in the 1920s were back up to 189,000. Then it crashes in the Depression. </div></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><table class="toccolours" cellpadding="1" cellspacing="0" style="font-size: 12px; border-top-width: 1px; border-right-width: 1px; border-bottom-width: 1px; border-left-width: 1px; border-top-style: solid; border-right-style: solid; border-bottom-style: solid; border-left-style: solid; border-top-color: rgb(170, 170, 170); border-right-color: rgb(170, 170, 170); border-bottom-color: rgb(170, 170, 170); border-left-color: rgb(170, 170, 170); background-color: rgb(249, 249, 249); padding-top: 5px; padding-right: 5px; padding-bottom: 5px; padding-left: 5px; clear: right; margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 1em; margin-left: 1em; text-align: right; position: static; z-index: auto; line-height: 19px; font-family: sans-serif; "><tbody><tr style="font-size: 12px; "><th style="text-align: center; border-bottom-width: 1px; border-bottom-style: solid; border-bottom-color: black; ">Census</th><th style="text-align: center; border-bottom-width: 1px; border-bottom-style: solid; border-bottom-color: black; "><abbr title="Population" style="border-bottom-width: 1px; border-bottom-style: dotted; border-bottom-color: initial; cursor: help; ">Pop.</abbr></th><th style="text-align: center; border-bottom-width: 1px; border-bottom-style: solid; border-bottom-color: black; "></th><th style="text-align: center; border-bottom-width: 1px; border-bottom-style: solid; border-bottom-color: black; "><abbr title="Percent change" style="border-bottom-width: 1px; border-bottom-style: dotted; border-bottom-color: initial; cursor: help; ">%±</abbr></th></tr><tr><td style="text-align: center; "><b><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1790_United_States_Census" title="1790 United States Census" style="text-decoration: none; color: rgb(6, 69, 173); background-image: none; background-attachment: initial; background-origin: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; ">1790</a></b></td><td style="padding-left: 8px; ">10,203</td><td></td><td style="padding-left: 8px; "><center>—</center></td></tr><tr><td style="text-align: center; "><b><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1800_United_States_Census" title="1800 United States Census" style="text-decoration: none; color: rgb(6, 69, 173); background-image: none; background-attachment: initial; background-origin: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; ">1800</a></b></td><td style="padding-left: 8px; ">15,087</td><td></td><td style="padding-left: 8px; "><span style="white-space: nowrap; ">47.9</span>%</td></tr><tr><td style="text-align: center; "><b><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1810_United_States_Census" title="1810 United States Census" style="text-decoration: none; color: rgb(6, 69, 173); background-image: none; background-attachment: initial; background-origin: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; ">1810</a></b></td><td style="padding-left: 8px; ">25,317</td><td></td><td style="padding-left: 8px; "><span style="white-space: nowrap; ">67.8</span>%</td></tr><tr><td style="text-align: center; "><b><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1820_United_States_Census" title="1820 United States Census" style="text-decoration: none; color: rgb(6, 69, 173); background-image: none; background-attachment: initial; background-origin: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; ">1820</a></b></td><td style="padding-left: 8px; ">34,921</td><td></td><td style="padding-left: 8px; "><span style="white-space: nowrap; ">37.9</span>%</td></tr><tr><td style="text-align: center; "><b><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1830_United_States_Census" title="1830 United States Census" style="text-decoration: none; color: rgb(6, 69, 173); background-image: none; background-attachment: initial; background-origin: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; ">1830</a></b></td><td style="padding-left: 8px; ">50,552</td><td></td><td style="padding-left: 8px; "><span style="white-space: nowrap; ">44.8</span>%</td></tr><tr><td style="text-align: center; "><b><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1840_United_States_Census" title="1840 United States Census" style="text-decoration: none; color: rgb(6, 69, 173); background-image: none; background-attachment: initial; background-origin: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; ">1840</a></b></td><td style="padding-left: 8px; ">81,235</td><td></td><td style="padding-left: 8px; "><span style="white-space: nowrap; ">60.7</span>%</td></tr><tr><td style="text-align: center; "><b><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1850_United_States_Census" title="1850 United States Census" style="text-decoration: none; color: rgb(6, 69, 173); background-image: none; background-attachment: initial; background-origin: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; ">1850</a></b></td><td style="padding-left: 8px; ">138,290</td><td></td><td style="padding-left: 8px; "><span style="white-space: nowrap; ">70.2</span>%</td></tr><tr><td style="text-align: center; "><b><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1860_United_States_Census" title="1860 United States Census" style="text-decoration: none; color: rgb(6, 69, 173); background-image: none; background-attachment: initial; background-origin: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; ">1860</a></b></td><td style="padding-left: 8px; ">178,831</td><td></td><td style="padding-left: 8px; "><span style="white-space: nowrap; ">29.3</span>%</td></tr><tr><td style="text-align: center; "><b><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1870_United_States_Census" title="1870 United States Census" style="text-decoration: none; color: rgb(6, 69, 173); background-image: none; background-attachment: initial; background-origin: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; ">1870</a></b></td><td style="padding-left: 8px; ">262,204</td><td></td><td style="padding-left: 8px; "><span style="white-space: nowrap; ">46.6</span>%</td></tr><tr><td style="text-align: center; "><b><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1880_United_States_Census" title="1880 United States Census" style="text-decoration: none; color: rgb(6, 69, 173); background-image: none; background-attachment: initial; background-origin: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; ">1880</a></b></td><td style="padding-left: 8px; ">355,869</td><td></td><td style="padding-left: 8px; "><span style="white-space: nowrap; ">35.7</span>%</td></tr><tr><td style="text-align: center; "><b><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1890_United_States_Census" title="1890 United States Census" style="text-decoration: none; color: rgb(6, 69, 173); background-image: none; background-attachment: initial; background-origin: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; ">1890</a></b></td><td style="padding-left: 8px; ">551,959</td><td></td><td style="padding-left: 8px; "><span style="white-space: nowrap; ">55.1</span>%</td></tr><tr><td style="text-align: center; "><b><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1900_United_States_Census" title="1900 United States Census" style="text-decoration: none; color: rgb(6, 69, 173); background-image: none; background-attachment: initial; background-origin: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; ">1900</a></b></td><td style="padding-left: 8px; ">775,058</td><td></td><td style="padding-left: 8px; "><span style="white-space: nowrap; ">40.4</span>%</td></tr><tr><td style="text-align: center; "><b><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1910_United_States_Census" title="1910 United States Census" style="text-decoration: none; color: rgb(6, 69, 173); background-image: none; background-attachment: initial; background-origin: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; ">1910</a></b></td><td style="padding-left: 8px; ">1,018,463</td><td></td><td style="padding-left: 8px; "><span style="white-space: nowrap; ">31.4</span>%</td></tr><tr><td style="text-align: center; "><b><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1920_United_States_Census" title="1920 United States Census" style="text-decoration: none; color: rgb(6, 69, 173); background-image: none; background-attachment: initial; background-origin: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; ">1920</a></b></td><td style="padding-left: 8px; ">1,185,808</td><td></td><td style="padding-left: 8px; "><span style="white-space: nowrap; ">16.4</span>%</td></tr><tr><td style="text-align: center; "><b><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1930_United_States_Census" title="1930 United States Census" style="text-decoration: none; color: rgb(6, 69, 173); background-image: none; background-attachment: initial; background-origin: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; ">1930</a></b></td><td style="padding-left: 8px; ">1,374,410</td><td></td><td style="padding-left: 8px; "><span style="white-space: nowrap; ">15.9</span>%</td></tr><tr><td style="text-align: center; "><b><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1940_United_States_Census" title="1940 United States Census" style="text-decoration: none; color: rgb(6, 69, 173); background-image: none; background-attachment: initial; background-origin: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; ">1940</a></b></td><td style="padding-left: 8px; ">1,411,539</td><td></td><td style="padding-left: 8px; "><span style="white-space: nowrap; ">2.7</span>%</td></tr><tr><td style="text-align: center; "><b><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1950_United_States_Census" title="1950 United States Census" style="text-decoration: none; color: rgb(6, 69, 173); background-image: none; background-attachment: initial; background-origin: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; ">1950</a></b></td><td style="padding-left: 8px; ">1,515,237</td><td></td><td style="padding-left: 8px; "><span style="white-space: nowrap; ">7.3</span>%</td></tr><tr><td style="text-align: center; "><b><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1960_United_States_Census" title="1960 United States Census" style="text-decoration: none; color: rgb(6, 69, 173); background-image: none; background-attachment: initial; background-origin: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; ">1960</a></b></td><td style="padding-left: 8px; ">1,628,587</td><td></td><td style="padding-left: 8px; "><span style="white-space: nowrap; ">7.5</span>%</td></tr><tr><td style="text-align: center; "><b><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1970_United_States_Census" title="1970 United States Census" style="text-decoration: none; color: rgb(6, 69, 173); background-image: none; background-attachment: initial; background-origin: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; ">1970</a></b></td><td style="padding-left: 8px; ">1,605,016</td><td></td><td style="padding-left: 8px; "><span style="white-space: nowrap; ">−1.4</span>%</td></tr><tr><td style="text-align: center; "><b><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1980_United_States_Census" title="1980 United States Census" style="text-decoration: none; color: rgb(6, 69, 173); background-image: none; background-attachment: initial; background-origin: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; ">1980</a></b></td><td style="padding-left: 8px; ">1,450,085</td><td></td><td style="padding-left: 8px; "><span style="white-space: nowrap; ">−9.7</span>%</td></tr><tr><td style="text-align: center; "><b><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1990_United_States_Census" title="1990 United States Census" style="text-decoration: none; color: rgb(6, 69, 173); background-image: none; background-attachment: initial; background-origin: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; ">1990</a></b></td><td style="padding-left: 8px; ">1,336,449</td><td></td><td style="padding-left: 8px; "><span style="white-space: nowrap; ">−7.8</span>%</td></tr><tr><td style="text-align: center; "><b><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2000_United_States_Census" title="2000 United States Census" style="text-decoration: none; color: rgb(6, 69, 173); background-image: none; background-attachment: initial; background-origin: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; ">2000</a></b></td><td style="padding-left: 8px; ">1,281,666</td><td></td><td style="padding-left: 8px; "><span style="white-space: nowrap; ">−4.1</span>%</td></tr><tr><td style="text-align: center; "><b><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2010_United_States_Census" title="2010 United States Census" style="text-decoration: none; color: rgb(6, 69, 173); background-image: none; background-attachment: initial; background-origin: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; ">2010</a></b></td><td style="padding-left: 8px; ">1,223,348</td><td></td><td style="padding-left: 8px; "><span style="white-space: nowrap; ">−4.6</span>%</td></tr></tbody></table><div>The key point is the county had only 50,000 people when the iron industry began around 1830. When we began making steel (as opposed to iron) around 1859, we had about 175,000 people in Allegheny County. By 1910 it has mushroomed to over a million people. But that was not all steel … much of it was but it also included railroads to haul the steel, related metals companies such as Crane Plumbing fixtures and Mesta Machine, and Alcoa, companies that had nothing whatsoever to do with steel such as Armstrong Cork, H. J. Heinz, Koppers Company, Westinghouse Electric, PPG, Gulf Oil and the stock yards, </div></div><div><br></div><div>Now what happened. Obviously dollars are going to follow the cheapest labor. I refuse to make disparging remarks against any groups of people or unions but we can see that Allegheny County's population peaked in 1960 at 1.628 million and by 1970, 23,000 people had moved out. Another 145,000 left between 1970 and 1980. Then we have the official collapse of steel and only another 113,000 left between 1980 and 1990. In the 1980s we loose Jones and Laughlin, US Steel. Wheeling- Pittsburgh Steel. US&S moved south. But what happened in the 1960s and 1970s?</div><div><br></div><div>Ed, speak up? Were taxes lower enough in Westmoreland and Washington Counties to cause people to move there? That does not make sense because you do not escape if you cannot find a buyer for your existing home. It makes sense that the kids would go there. Makes sense that if mom dies and you cannot sell her home in Carnegie or Wilkinsburg because it isn't in absolutely mint condition that you simply walk away to avoid the taxes and the borough tears it down. I do see that Westmoreland and Washington grew until 1980 while Allegheny quit growing in 1960. Beaver collapsed earlier and Butler is still growing. </div><div><br></div><div>Now, care for an opinion. I think it probably did crash in the 1930s and really never recovered. I see a growth of 35,000 in the Depression, 103,000 in the 40s and 113,000 in the 1950s and then negative numbers. </div><div><br></div><div>The Pttsburgh numbers show a 2.7% gain in the Depression but the nation as a while was up 7%. Suggests to me that there were a fair share of people escaping Allegheny County … not enough to offset births and people coming in but they were going.</div><div><br></div><div>In the 1940s, the nation grew by 14 percent and Allegheny County advanced by only half that. Something you need to understand … military people are in the national totals but they do not show in state and and local counts but the military was very much reduced in 1940 and again in 1950 so I am willing to overlook it.</div><div><br></div><div>In the 1950s the national population total jumped 18% while Allegheny County grew only 7.5%. Without trying to dig out school enrollment and birth and death stats for the county, looks to me like they were moving out as fast as the baby boom kids were being hatched in Allegheny County. But we didn't really know it at the time. We heard all those hammers and saws making new houses in the suburbs and that masked what was really taking place. </div><div><br></div><div> </div><div><br></div><br><div><div>On Nov 20, 2013, at 8:27 AM, Edward H. Lybarger wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote type="cite"><div>Somewhere I read (and I wish I remember where) that the greater Pittsburgh<br>economy peaked in 1912. I tend to believe it.<br><br>-----Original Message-----<br>From: <a href="mailto:pittsburgh-railways-bounces@mailman.dementix.org">pittsburgh-railways-bounces@mailman.dementix.org</a><br>[mailto:pittsburgh-railways-bounces@mailman.dementix.org] On Behalf Of Fred<br>Schneider<br>Sent: Tuesday, November 19, 2013 6:18 PM<br>To: Western PA Trolley discussion<br>Subject: Re: [PRCo] Regional population numbers<br><br>More to follow, Ed. <br><br>I am massaging them into groups of boroughs and municipalities according to<br>the census in which the population peaked. Preliminary gut reaction is<br>that some of the mill towns where PRC hauled its heaviest loads began<br>collapsing in the 1920s. The city and most of the older towns began to<br>crash in the 1950s. Even the older suburbs were heading down in the 1970s.<br>It tells me that the PAT management may have had a guy at the help that St.<br>Louis was happy to get rid of but what he did in Pittsburgh had to be done.<br><br>This all started because of a certain picture an old friend provided showing<br>Turtle Creek in 1964 and we then discovered what it looked like today.<br>Turtle Creek was one of those towns that peaked in 1930. But the<br>population in adjacent East Pittsburgh on one side and Wilmerding and<br>Pitcairn on the other all peaked in the 1920 census. If we had not had a<br>World War in the early 1940s, I can only question if 87 Ardmore and 62<br>Trafford would have lasted after the mid 1940s.<br><br><br>On Nov 19, 2013, at 5:13 PM, Edward H. Lybarger wrote:<br><br><blockquote type="cite">This is a wonderful addition to the Reference Department. Gracias.<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">-----Original Message-----<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">From: <a href="mailto:pittsburgh-railways-bounces@mailman.dementix.org">pittsburgh-railways-bounces@mailman.dementix.org</a><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">[mailto:pittsburgh-railways-bounces@mailman.dementix.org] On Behalf Of <br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">Fred Schneider<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">Sent: Saturday, November 16, 2013 7:38 PM<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">To: Western PA Trolley discussion<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">Subject: [PRCo] Regional population numbers<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">This pdf file . 30 some pages long might interest a couple of yins.<br></blockquote>Shows<br><blockquote type="cite">what happened to populations in the various boroughs, cities, townships<br></blockquote>and<br><blockquote type="cite">municipalities in southwestern Pennsylvania over the last 80 years. <br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">Sad thing is that most of the places the trolleys ran (or even run) <br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">have lost population . even Mount Lebanon, Dormont, Castle Shannon and<br></blockquote>Bethel<br><blockquote type="cite">Park. Even Upper St. Clair Township. I guess a lot of the kids have<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">moved to Dallas, Phoenix of Portland in search of work.<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><a href="http://www.spcregion.org/pdf/RegPop/Census%20munic%20pop%20decennial%2">http://www.spcregion.org/pdf/RegPop/Census%20munic%20pop%20decennial%2</a><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">01930-<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">2010,%20SPC%20region.pdf<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">_______________________________________________<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">Pittsburgh-railways mailing list<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><a href="mailto:Pittsburgh-railways@mailman.dementix.org">Pittsburgh-railways@mailman.dementix.org</a><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><a href="https://mailman.dementix.org/mailman/listinfo/pittsburgh-railways">https://mailman.dementix.org/mailman/listinfo/pittsburgh-railways</a><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">_______________________________________________<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">Pittsburgh-railways mailing list<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><a href="mailto:Pittsburgh-railways@mailman.dementix.org">Pittsburgh-railways@mailman.dementix.org</a><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><a href="https://mailman.dementix.org/mailman/listinfo/pittsburgh-railways">https://mailman.dementix.org/mailman/listinfo/pittsburgh-railways</a><br></blockquote><br><br><br><br><br>_______________________________________________<br>Pittsburgh-railways mailing list<br><a href="mailto:Pittsburgh-railways@mailman.dementix.org">Pittsburgh-railways@mailman.dementix.org</a><br>https://mailman.dementix.org/mailman/listinfo/pittsburgh-railways<br><br><br><br><br>_______________________________________________<br>Pittsburgh-railways mailing list<br>Pittsburgh-railways@mailman.dementix.org<br>https://mailman.dementix.org/mailman/listinfo/pittsburgh-railways<br></div></blockquote></div><br>
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