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<div>Wow you guys are fussy. Didn’t any of you read my disclaimer.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>Yes I know people use public transit and that some of them are young</div>
<div>and choose to do so. Although, it has been <u><b>my experience</b></u> that parking</div>
<div>costs and availability seems to be the main factor if one drives or uses</div>
<div>public transit. Yes I know there are other factors.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>I know people that use transit to and from work but that is it. </div>
<div>If going to church, shopping , doctors, relatives, etc. they use their car, more convenient.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>I am sure there are people who use public transit for everything, but they are far and few.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>I just remembered there are 2 guys up the street from me and neither one of them has a license, guess what they do.</div>
<div>I 'll tell you, they both get their sister and niece to drive them everywhere. How about that!</div>
<div> </div>
<div>By the way, neither one of my parents ever drove. Never a problem for us growing up</div>
<div>In Mt. Oliver which had everything we needed within walking distance. My dad got to and from work,</div>
<div>J&L South Side, mostly by trolley then bus and occasionally by co-worker with a car. He also would</div>
<div>Walk to work sometimes in the summer but never walked home. Well, maybe during transit strikes.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>Went to visit relatives by trolley and bus, same for doctor visits. Sometimes by police when</div>
<div>They provided that service back in the day. Doctor visits, not visiting relatives.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>I will say the minute my sister and I turned 16 that was the end of public transit for us.</div>
<div>My sister and I were now chauffeurs for my dad and mom. </div>
<div> </div>
<div><u>Your experiences may be different.</u></div>
<div> </div>
<div>Ray</div>
<div> </div>
<div> </div>
<div> </div>
<div>-----Original Message-----<br>
From: pittsburgh-railways-bounces@mailman.dementix.org [<a href="mailto:pittsburgh-railways-bounces@mailman.dementix.org">mailto:pittsburgh-railways-bounces@mailman.dementix.org</a>] On Behalf Of John Swindler<br>
Sent: Tuesday, November 26, 2013 11:58 AM<br>
To: Western PA Trolley discussion<br>
Subject: Re: [PRCo] Cleveland numbers</div>
<div> </div>
<div> </div>
<div> </div>
<div>Bob Sauer was another person without a car. Finally got a driver's license and auto when he retired. But this requires a disclaimer - Bob worked for WMATA schedule department and used intercity bus to travel home to Reading. </div>
<div> </div>
<div>Again, the norm is auto dependent. But there are those few percent out there that rely on transit. It was a surprise to me - something that never would have considered.</div>
<div> </div>
<div> </div>
<div> </div>
<div>> From: <a href="mailto:hrbran@cavtel.net">hrbran@cavtel.net</a></div>
<div>> Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2013 11:40:38 -0500</div>
<div>> To: <a href="mailto:pittsburgh-railways@mailman.dementix.org">pittsburgh-railways@mailman.dementix.org</a></div>
<div>> Subject: Re: [PRCo] Cleveland numbers</div>
<div>> </div>
<div>> I can introduce you to three young people in my apartment building. </div>
<div>> They are one male 23 yrs old, one female 22yrs old and one female 24 </div>
<div>> yrs old. I can also introduce you to the other four people living in </div>
<div>> the building (NOT counting myself) who are all past 45 years old who </div>
<div>> use PATransit on a daily basis. I am the only person in my building </div>
<div>> who has a vehicle. Also, those young people are daily riders of </div>
<div>> PATransit. Sometimes, like I have always said, we tend not to really </div>
<div>> get to know the city and are content to stay in the suburban areas.</div>
<div>> </div>
<div>> </div>
<div>> On Tue, Nov 26, 2013 at 11:34 AM, Derrick Brashear <<a href="mailto:shadow@dementix.org">shadow@dementix.org</a>>wrote:</div>
<div>> </div>
<div>> > i'm younger. well. probably younger than the rest of you. i'm 40.</div>
<div>> ></div>
<div>> > if i can avoid driving i do. before i had an enforced 1 month pause </div>
<div>> > in biking due to breaking my hand i rode 2500 miles from may 1 to </div>
<div>> > september 25, including trips to such places as new kensington </div>
<div>> > (round trip), monroeville (also round trip), manor, and robinson </div>
<div>> > (the short way, 14 miles via steuben st, and the long way, 68 miles </div>
<div>> > via glassport and clairton.</div>
<div>> ></div>
<div>> > so yeah.</div>
<div>> ></div>
<div>> ></div>
<div>> > On Tue, Nov 26, 2013 at 11:15 AM, Lattner, Raymond <<a href="mailto:rlattner@pa.gov">rlattner@pa.gov</a>></div>
<div>> > wrote:</div>
<div>> ></div>
<div>> > > Who are these "younger people" that you speak of that do not want </div>
<div>> > > to</div>
<div>> > drive</div>
<div>> > > by choice? I can tell you</div>
<div>> > > That in my world both my son and daughter could think of nothing </div>
<div>> > > but the day they could obtain their Learners permit to drive. </div>
<div>> > > Ditto for buying their own cars. This was true of all their </div>
<div>> > > friends also.</div>
<div>> > ></div>
<div>> > > Take public transit when they could drive themselves, NEVER.</div>
<div>> > ></div>
<div>> > > Disclaimer. This was meant in a humorous way and not to criticize </div>
<div>> > > your comments.</div>
<div>> > ></div>
<div>> > > -----Original Message-----</div>
<div>> > > From: <a href="mailto:pittsburgh-railways-bounces@mailman.dementix.org">pittsburgh-railways-bounces@mailman.dementix.org</a> [mailto:</div>
<div>> > > <a href="mailto:pittsburgh-railways-bounces@mailman.dementix.org">pittsburgh-railways-bounces@mailman.dementix.org</a>] On Behalf Of </div>
<div>> > > John Swindler</div>
<div>> > > Sent: Tuesday, November 26, 2013 11:04 AM</div>
<div>> > > To: Western PA Trolley discussion</div>
<div>> > > Subject: Re: [PRCo] Cleveland numbers</div>
<div>> > ></div>
<div>> > ></div>
<div>> > ></div>
<div>> > > Transit ridership is rising for several reasons. One surprise was </div>
<div>> > > that younger people don't think the same way as us "old geezer" generation.</div>
<div>> > > They are NOT as enamored by autos. Not massive numbers of young </div>
<div>> > > people</div>
<div>> > -</div>
<div>> > > just a couple percentage points. Negligible effect on highways, </div>
<div>> > > but significant impact on transit ridership. This comment was </div>
<div>> > > from Amtrak - they are finding young people not only without cars, </div>
<div>> > > but without drivers license - not by circumstances, but by choice.</div>
<div>> > ></div>
<div>> > > Also, never realized that Amtrak handles four oil trains a day to </div>
<div>> > > a Delaware refinery. Amtrak admits they never saw (this traffic) coming.</div>
<div>> > ></div>
<div>> > > And we should all be aware that VRE exists. I thought it was just </div>
<div>> > > a couple daily commuter trains from Virginia into Washington. </div>
<div>> > > Didn't</div>
<div>> > realize</div>
<div>> > > that it was 30 daily trains. Busiest station?? If assumed it was </div>
<div>> > > Union Station, would be wrong. It's L'Enfant Plaza. VRE is </div>
<div>> > > currently at capacity and has more cars on-order. Also </div>
<div>> > > negotiating with railroads for extensions to both lines.</div>
<div>> > ></div>
<div>> > > MARC ridership was around 18,000 in 1997. Currently around 36,000</div>
<div>> > riders.</div>
<div>> > > It's seen a 3.5% average annual growth over past 15 years.</div>
<div>> > ></div>
<div>> > ></div>
<div>> > ></div>
<div>> > > > From: <a href="mailto:fwschneider@comcast.net">fwschneider@comcast.net</a></div>
<div>> > > > Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2013 10:25:48 -0500</div>
<div>> > > > To: <a href="mailto:pittsburgh-railways@mailman.dementix.org">pittsburgh-railways@mailman.dementix.org</a></div>
<div>> > > > Subject: Re: [PRCo] Cleveland numbers</div>
<div>> > > ></div>
<div>> > > > The positive numbers are in the western and southwestern cities. Los</div>
<div>> > > Angeles has more rail riders today than Pacific Electric had in </div>
<div>> > > their</div>
<div>> > 1923</div>
<div>> > > peak.</div>
<div>> > > ></div>
<div>> > > ></div>
<div>> > > ></div>
<div>> > > > On Nov 26, 2013, at 6:18 AM, PC wrote:</div>
<div>> > > ></div>
<div>> > > > > ..........><http://mailman.dementix.org/pipermail/pittsburgh-r</div>
<div>> > > > > ailway s/2013-November/032450.html> ..........>from Fred </div>
<div>> > > > > Schneider fwschneider at comcast.net ..........>Sun Nov 24 </div>
<div>> > > > > 11:32:53 EST 2013</div>
<div>> > > > ></div>
<div>> > > > > ..........>Do not know where you find positive Cleveland numbers.....</div>
<div>> > > > ></div>
<div>> > > > > The above is your original question isn't it. You could not </div>
<div>> > > > > find</div>
<div>> > > positive Cleveland Numbers. I answered that question didn't I.</div>
<div>> > > > > Positive Cleveland numbers were provided. Now all this below.......</div>
<div>> > > > > You seem disappointed that ridership is rising--transit </div>
<div>> > > > > ridership,</div>
<div>> > > trolley, tram, bus--interests of people on this list.</div>
<div>> > > > > How is it possible to please you?</div>
<div>> > > > ></div>
<div>> > > > > To address Cleveland ridership one observes the trend is </div>
<div>> > > > > sloping downward with occasional rises above and dips below this trendline.</div>
<div>> > > This is very openly noticed and admitted, along with the following:</div>
<div>> > > > > 1-birds are hatched, birds grow, birds live, birds grow old, </div>
<div>> > > > > birds</div>
<div>> > die.</div>
<div>> > > > > 2-animals are born, animals grow, animals live, animals grow </div>
<div>> > > > > old,</div>
<div>> > > animals die.</div>
<div>> > > > > 3-plants sprout, plants grow, plants live, plants grow old, </div>
<div>> > > > > plants</div>
<div>> > die.</div>
<div>> > > > > 4-People are born, people grow, people live, people grow old, </div>
<div>> > > > > people</div>
<div>> > > die.</div>
<div>> > > > > 5-a business is formed, the business grows, the business </div>
<div>> > > > > thrives, the</div>
<div>> > > business grows old, the business dies.</div>
<div>> > > > > 6-industries form, industries grow, industries thrive, </div>
<div>> > > > > industries</div>
<div>> > > grows old, industries die.</div>
<div>> > > > > 7-etc.</div>
<div>> > > > > 8-Everything has its day in the sun [then trundles into the </div>
<div>> > > > > mists of history.] Vanity vanity; all is vanity. King </div>
<div>> > > > > Solomon</div>
<div>> > > > ></div>
<div>> > > > > Nothing lasts forever does it. Nothing is all inclusive isn't it.</div>
<div>> > > > ></div>
<div>> > > > > But if it makes you happy:</div>
<div>> > > > ></div>
<div>> > > > > People are falling off transit! People are falling off transit!</div>
<div>> > > > > The sky is falling! The sky is falling!</div>
<div>> > > > > Woe is mankind. Woe is mankind.</div>
<div>> > > > > The end is here. The end is here.</div>
<div>> > > > ></div>
<div>> > > > > sighhh.</div>
<div>> > > > ></div>
<div>> > > > ></div>
<div>> > > > > Pc</div>
<div>> > > > ></div>
<div>> > > > ></div>
<div>> > > > ></div>
<div>> > > > > --------------------------------------------</div>
<div>> > > > > On Sun, 11/24/13, Fred Schneider <<a href="mailto:fwschneider@comcast.net">fwschneider@comcast.net</a>> wrote:</div>
<div>> > > > ></div>
<div>> > > > > Subject: [PRCo] Cleveland numbers</div>
<div>> > > > > To: "Western PA Trolley discussion"</div>
<div>> > > > > <<a href="mailto:pittsburgh-railways@mailman.dementix.org">pittsburgh-railways@mailman.dementix.org</a>></div>
<div>> > > > > Date: Sunday, November 24, 2013, 4:14 PM</div>
<div>> > > > ></div>
<div>> > > > > Most agencies in industrial areas had increases in the last </div>
<div>> > > > > three years because we were coming out</div>
<div>> > > > > of the recession. Of course if you only</div>
<div>> > > > > look at the last three years, then you miss the large drop in </div>
<div>> > > > > riding at the beginning of the recession.</div>
<div>> > > > ></div>
<div>> > > > > Cleveland had a drop of perhaps 12 million the year going into </div>
<div>> > > > > the</div>
<div>> > > > > 2010 recession but it appears to be masked by a series break </div>
<div>> > > > > in the counts between 2005 and</div>
<div>> > > > > 2006. A series break is a statistical term</div>
<div>> > > > > when something happens to screw up the</div>
<div>> > > > > data. The information was not sent to APTA</div>
<div>> > > > > for 2006 leading me to suspect that perhaps the guy or gal who </div>
<div>> > > > > was crunching the numbers in 2004 retired and the new person </div>
<div>> > > > > didn't understand how to do it the same way and took several </div>
<div>> > > > > years to get his or her act</div>
<div>> > > > > together. Then in 2008, Cleveland sent in</div>
<div>> > > > > data for both 2006 and 2007. Those 66 and 60 million numbers </div>
<div>> > > > > in 2006 and 2007 look rather fishy.</div>
<div>> > > > > S--t happens.</div>
<div>> > > > ></div>
<div>> > > > > The true numbers are probably more like a drop to about 52 or </div>
<div>> > > > > 53 million riders in the 2000-2001 recession, then back up to </div>
<div>> > > > > around 57 million through most of the early 200s until we hit </div>
<div>> > > > > the big recession and then down to 44 million.</div>
<div>> > > > ></div>
<div>> > > > > Here are the total Cleveland numbers (Bus, Rapid, Light Rail </div>
<div>> > > > > and Demand Responsive) since 1995 by year from the APTA website.</div>
<div>> > > > ></div>
<div>> > > > > 1995: 58.265 million Cleveland</div>
<div>> > > > > city population around 492,000.</div>
<div>> > > > > 1996: 58.736 million</div>
<div>> > > > > 1997: 60.892 million</div>
<div>> > > > > 1998: 60.557 million</div>
<div>> > > > > 1999: 59.300 million</div>
<div>> > > > > 2000: 59.116 million 2000-2001</div>
<div>> > > > > Recession Cleveland city population 2000 census</div>
<div>> > > > > 478,403</div>
<div>> > > > > 2001: 58.128 million Unemployed in</div>
<div>> > > > > Cleveland number around 45,000.</div>
<div>> > > > > 2002: 52.626 million</div>
<div>> > > > > 2003: 53.446 million Unemployed in</div>
<div>> > > > > Cleveland area top 60,000</div>
<div>> > > > > 2004: 55.419 million</div>
<div>> > > > > 2005: 57.026 million</div>
<div>> > > > > 2006: 66,602 million Average unemployed in</div>
<div>> > > > > Cleveland about 62,000</div>
<div>> > > > > 2007: 60,025 million Average unemployed in</div>
<div>> > > > > Cleveland region around 67,000</div>
<div>> > > > > 2008: 57,287 million 2008-2009</div>
<div>> > > > > recession Average unemployment in Cleveland</div>
<div>> > > > > around 72,000.</div>
<div>> > > > > 2009: 49,706 million Unemployment over</div>
<div>> > > > > 80,000 people in Cleveland</div>
<div>> > > > > 2010: 44.592 million Average unemployed in</div>
<div>> > > > > Cleveland between 95,000 and 100,000. City population </div>
<div>> > > > > 396,815.</div>
<div>> > > > > 2011: 46.175 million Average unemployed in</div>
<div>> > > > > Cleveland about 82,000.</div>
<div>> > > > > 2012: 48.152 million Unemployment in</div>
<div>> > > > > Cleveland in the high 70,000 range.</div>
<div>> > > > > 2012: looks like a 1/3 of 1% increase</div>
<div>> > > > ></div>
<div>> > > > > <a href="http://www.deptofnumbers.com/unemployment/ohio/cleveland/">http://www.deptofnumbers.com/unemployment/ohio/cleveland/</a></div>
<div>> > > > ></div>
<div>> > > > > Phillip, I trust some agency numbers more than</div>
<div>> > > > > others. Houston, for example, counts light</div>
<div>> > > > > rail passengers as they walk through a light beam in the car</div>
<div>> > > > > doorway. No matter how they pay their fare</div>
<div>> > > > > ... pass, cash fare, or simply sneak on ... they are</div>
<div>> > > > > counted. PATCO is probably fairly reliable</div>
<div>> > > > > because every rider has a magnetically encoded ticket and they </div>
<div>> > > > > are counted going through the fare gates.</div>
<div>> > > > ></div>
<div>> > > > > In addition, some counts are just plain lies because the </div>
<div>> > > > > agencies are trying to prove to politicians that they are</div>
<div>> > > > > worth bigger subsidies. Some are accidental</div>
<div>> > > > > lies. Some are misunderstandings of</div>
<div>> > > > > procedures. Some are done by clerks who</div>
<div>> > > > > don't give a rat's ass. Some are excellent.</div>
<div>> > > > ></div>
<div>> > > > > But, except for the apparent break in the numbers in 2006 and </div>
<div>> > > > > 2007, I have no reason to suspect the continuity of the </div>
<div>> > > > > Cleveland numbers because they mirror what is happening in the </div>
<div>> > > > > economy and with the local population.</div>
<div>> > > > ></div>
<div>> > > > ></div>
<div>> > > > ></div>
<div>> > > > ></div>
<div>> > > > > _______________________________________________</div>
<div>> > > > > Pittsburgh-railways mailing list </div>
<div>> > > > > <a href="mailto:Pittsburgh-railways@mailman.dementix.org">Pittsburgh-railways@mailman.dementix.org</a></div>
<div>> > > > > <a href="https://mailman.dementix.org/mailman/listinfo/pittsburgh-railw">https://mailman.dementix.org/mailman/listinfo/pittsburgh-railw</a></div>
<div>> > > > > ays</div>
<div>> > > ></div>
<div>> > > ></div>
<div>> > > ></div>
<div>> > > ></div>
<div>> > > ></div>
<div>> > > > _______________________________________________</div>
<div>> > > > Pittsburgh-railways mailing list </div>
<div>> > > > <a href="mailto:Pittsburgh-railways@mailman.dementix.org">Pittsburgh-railways@mailman.dementix.org</a></div>
<div>> > > > <a href="https://mailman.dementix.org/mailman/listinfo/pittsburgh-railway">https://mailman.dementix.org/mailman/listinfo/pittsburgh-railway</a></div>
<div>> > > > s</div>
<div>> > ></div>
<div>> > ></div>
<div>> > ></div>
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<div>> > > _______________________________________________</div>
<div>> > > Pittsburgh-railways mailing list</div>
<div>> > > <a href="mailto:Pittsburgh-railways@mailman.dementix.org">Pittsburgh-railways@mailman.dementix.org</a></div>
<div>> > > <a href="https://mailman.dementix.org/mailman/listinfo/pittsburgh-railways">https://mailman.dementix.org/mailman/listinfo/pittsburgh-railways</a></div>
<div>> > ></div>
<div>> > ></div>
<div>> > ></div>
<div>> > ></div>
<div>> > > _______________________________________________</div>
<div>> > > Pittsburgh-railways mailing list</div>
<div>> > > <a href="mailto:Pittsburgh-railways@mailman.dementix.org">Pittsburgh-railways@mailman.dementix.org</a></div>
<div>> > > <a href="https://mailman.dementix.org/mailman/listinfo/pittsburgh-railways">https://mailman.dementix.org/mailman/listinfo/pittsburgh-railways</a></div>
<div>> > ></div>
<div>> ></div>
<div>> ></div>
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<div>> > _______________________________________________</div>
<div>> > Pittsburgh-railways mailing list</div>
<div>> > <a href="mailto:Pittsburgh-railways@mailman.dementix.org">Pittsburgh-railways@mailman.dementix.org</a></div>
<div>> > <a href="https://mailman.dementix.org/mailman/listinfo/pittsburgh-railways">https://mailman.dementix.org/mailman/listinfo/pittsburgh-railways</a></div>
<div>> ></div>
<div>> </div>
<div>> </div>
<div>> </div>
<div>> --</div>
<div>> Herb Brannon</div>
<div>> </div>
<div>> </div>
<div>> *In Pittsburgh.............................A City AndAnd A State of </div>
<div>> Mind* Let's Go Pens Let's Go Steelers</div>
<div>> </div>
<div>> </div>
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