<html>
<head>
<style><!--
.hmmessage P
{
margin:0px;
padding:0px
}
body.hmmessage
{
font-size: 12pt;
font-family:Calibri
}
--></style></head>
<body class='hmmessage'><div dir='ltr'> <BR>My last six years at PennDOT involved managing the senior free transit program, and this included visiting 8-10 transit systems each year. And I always included rides on 2-3 buses. Initially would have bet the farm that buses mostly empty and only senior citizens rode public transit during mid-day. Instead it was a far stranger world with lots of surprises. I'm still clueless where/why most people were riding the bus. But it was interesting to watch - and listen.<BR> <BR> <BR><br> <BR><div>> From: rlattner@pa.gov<br>> To: pittsburgh-railways@mailman.dementix.org<br>> Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2013 14:36:03 -0500<br>> Subject: Re: [PRCo] Cleveland numbers<br>> <br>> Wow you guys are fussy. Didn't any of you read my disclaimer.<br>> <br>> Yes I know people use public transit and that some of them are young<br>> and choose to do so. Although, it has been my experience that parking<br>> costs and availability seems to be the main factor if one drives or uses<br>> public transit. Yes I know there are other factors.<br>> <br>> I know people that use transit to and from work but that is it.<br>> If going to church, shopping , doctors, relatives, etc. they use their car, more convenient.<br>> <br>> I am sure there are people who use public transit for everything, but they are far and few.<br>> <br>> I just remembered there are 2 guys up the street from me and neither one of them has a license, guess what they do.<br>> I 'll tell you, they both get their sister and niece to drive them everywhere. How about that!<br>> <br>> By the way, neither one of my parents ever drove. Never a problem for us growing up<br>> In Mt. Oliver which had everything we needed within walking distance. My dad got to and from work,<br>> J&L South Side, mostly by trolley then bus and occasionally by co-worker with a car. He also would<br>> Walk to work sometimes in the summer but never walked home. Well, maybe during transit strikes.<br>> <br>> Went to visit relatives by trolley and bus, same for doctor visits. Sometimes by police when<br>> They provided that service back in the day. Doctor visits, not visiting relatives.<br>> <br>> I will say the minute my sister and I turned 16 that was the end of public transit for us.<br>> My sister and I were now chauffeurs for my dad and mom.<br>> <br>> Your experiences may be different.<br>> <br>> Ray<br>> <br>> <br>> <br>> -----Original Message-----<br>> From: pittsburgh-railways-bounces@mailman.dementix.org [mailto:pittsburgh-railways-bounces@mailman.dementix.org] On Behalf Of John Swindler<br>> Sent: Tuesday, November 26, 2013 11:58 AM<br>> To: Western PA Trolley discussion<br>> Subject: Re: [PRCo] Cleveland numbers<br>> <br>> <br>> <br>> Bob Sauer was another person without a car. Finally got a driver's license and auto when he retired. But this requires a disclaimer - Bob worked for WMATA schedule department and used intercity bus to travel home to Reading.<br>> <br>> Again, the norm is auto dependent. But there are those few percent out there that rely on transit. It was a surprise to me - something that never would have considered.<br>> <br>> <br>> <br>> > From: hrbran@cavtel.net<mailto:hrbran@cavtel.net><br>> > Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2013 11:40:38 -0500<br>> > To: pittsburgh-railways@mailman.dementix.org<mailto:pittsburgh-railways@mailman.dementix.org><br>> > Subject: Re: [PRCo] Cleveland numbers<br>> ><br>> > I can introduce you to three young people in my apartment building.<br>> > They are one male 23 yrs old, one female 22yrs old and one female 24<br>> > yrs old. I can also introduce you to the other four people living in<br>> > the building (NOT counting myself) who are all past 45 years old who<br>> > use PATransit on a daily basis. I am the only person in my building<br>> > who has a vehicle. Also, those young people are daily riders of<br>> > PATransit. Sometimes, like I have always said, we tend not to really<br>> > get to know the city and are content to stay in the suburban areas.<br>> ><br>> ><br>> > On Tue, Nov 26, 2013 at 11:34 AM, Derrick Brashear <shadow@dementix.org<mailto:shadow@dementix.org>>wrote:<br>> ><br>> > > i'm younger. well. probably younger than the rest of you. i'm 40.<br>> > ><br>> > > if i can avoid driving i do. before i had an enforced 1 month pause<br>> > > in biking due to breaking my hand i rode 2500 miles from may 1 to<br>> > > september 25, including trips to such places as new kensington<br>> > > (round trip), monroeville (also round trip), manor, and robinson<br>> > > (the short way, 14 miles via steuben st, and the long way, 68 miles<br>> > > via glassport and clairton.<br>> > ><br>> > > so yeah.<br>> > ><br>> > ><br>> > > On Tue, Nov 26, 2013 at 11:15 AM, Lattner, Raymond <rlattner@pa.gov<mailto:rlattner@pa.gov>><br>> > > wrote:<br>> > ><br>> > > > Who are these "younger people" that you speak of that do not want<br>> > > > to<br>> > > drive<br>> > > > by choice? I can tell you<br>> > > > That in my world both my son and daughter could think of nothing<br>> > > > but the day they could obtain their Learners permit to drive.<br>> > > > Ditto for buying their own cars. This was true of all their<br>> > > > friends also.<br>> > > ><br>> > > > Take public transit when they could drive themselves, NEVER.<br>> > > ><br>> > > > Disclaimer. This was meant in a humorous way and not to criticize<br>> > > > your comments.<br>> > > ><br>> > > > -----Original Message-----<br>> > > > From: pittsburgh-railways-bounces@mailman.dementix.org<mailto:pittsburgh-railways-bounces@mailman.dementix.org> [mailto:<br>> > > > pittsburgh-railways-bounces@mailman.dementix.org<mailto:pittsburgh-railways-bounces@mailman.dementix.org>] On Behalf Of<br>> > > > John Swindler<br>> > > > Sent: Tuesday, November 26, 2013 11:04 AM<br>> > > > To: Western PA Trolley discussion<br>> > > > Subject: Re: [PRCo] Cleveland numbers<br>> > > ><br>> > > ><br>> > > ><br>> > > > Transit ridership is rising for several reasons. One surprise was<br>> > > > that younger people don't think the same way as us "old geezer" generation.<br>> > > > They are NOT as enamored by autos. Not massive numbers of young<br>> > > > people<br>> > > -<br>> > > > just a couple percentage points. Negligible effect on highways,<br>> > > > but significant impact on transit ridership. This comment was<br>> > > > from Amtrak - they are finding young people not only without cars,<br>> > > > but without drivers license - not by circumstances, but by choice.<br>> > > ><br>> > > > Also, never realized that Amtrak handles four oil trains a day to<br>> > > > a Delaware refinery. Amtrak admits they never saw (this traffic) coming.<br>> > > ><br>> > > > And we should all be aware that VRE exists. I thought it was just<br>> > > > a couple daily commuter trains from Virginia into Washington.<br>> > > > Didn't<br>> > > realize<br>> > > > that it was 30 daily trains. Busiest station?? If assumed it was<br>> > > > Union Station, would be wrong. It's L'Enfant Plaza. VRE is<br>> > > > currently at capacity and has more cars on-order. Also<br>> > > > negotiating with railroads for extensions to both lines.<br>> > > ><br>> > > > MARC ridership was around 18,000 in 1997. Currently around 36,000<br>> > > riders.<br>> > > > It's seen a 3.5% average annual growth over past 15 years.<br>> > > ><br>> > > ><br>> > > ><br>> > > > > From: fwschneider@comcast.net<mailto:fwschneider@comcast.net><br>> > > > > Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2013 10:25:48 -0500<br>> > > > > To: pittsburgh-railways@mailman.dementix.org<mailto:pittsburgh-railways@mailman.dementix.org><br>> > > > > Subject: Re: [PRCo] Cleveland numbers<br>> > > > ><br>> > > > > The positive numbers are in the western and southwestern cities. Los<br>> > > > Angeles has more rail riders today than Pacific Electric had in<br>> > > > their<br>> > > 1923<br>> > > > peak.<br>> > > > ><br>> > > > ><br>> > > > ><br>> > > > > On Nov 26, 2013, at 6:18 AM, PC wrote:<br>> > > > ><br>> > > > > > ..........><http://mailman.dementix.org/pipermail/pittsburgh-r<br>> > > > > > ailway s/2013-November/032450.html> ..........>from Fred<br>> > > > > > Schneider fwschneider at comcast.net ..........>Sun Nov 24<br>> > > > > > 11:32:53 EST 2013<br>> > > > > ><br>> > > > > > ..........>Do not know where you find positive Cleveland numbers.....<br>> > > > > ><br>> > > > > > The above is your original question isn't it. You could not<br>> > > > > > find<br>> > > > positive Cleveland Numbers. I answered that question didn't I.<br>> > > > > > Positive Cleveland numbers were provided. Now all this below.......<br>> > > > > > You seem disappointed that ridership is rising--transit<br>> > > > > > ridership,<br>> > > > trolley, tram, bus--interests of people on this list.<br>> > > > > > How is it possible to please you?<br>> > > > > ><br>> > > > > > To address Cleveland ridership one observes the trend is<br>> > > > > > sloping downward with occasional rises above and dips below this trendline.<br>> > > > This is very openly noticed and admitted, along with the following:<br>> > > > > > 1-birds are hatched, birds grow, birds live, birds grow old,<br>> > > > > > birds<br>> > > die.<br>> > > > > > 2-animals are born, animals grow, animals live, animals grow<br>> > > > > > old,<br>> > > > animals die.<br>> > > > > > 3-plants sprout, plants grow, plants live, plants grow old,<br>> > > > > > plants<br>> > > die.<br>> > > > > > 4-People are born, people grow, people live, people grow old,<br>> > > > > > people<br>> > > > die.<br>> > > > > > 5-a business is formed, the business grows, the business<br>> > > > > > thrives, the<br>> > > > business grows old, the business dies.<br>> > > > > > 6-industries form, industries grow, industries thrive,<br>> > > > > > industries<br>> > > > grows old, industries die.<br>> > > > > > 7-etc.<br>> > > > > > 8-Everything has its day in the sun [then trundles into the<br>> > > > > > mists of history.] Vanity vanity; all is vanity. King<br>> > > > > > Solomon<br>> > > > > ><br>> > > > > > Nothing lasts forever does it. Nothing is all inclusive isn't it.<br>> > > > > ><br>> > > > > > But if it makes you happy:<br>> > > > > ><br>> > > > > > People are falling off transit! People are falling off transit!<br>> > > > > > The sky is falling! The sky is falling!<br>> > > > > > Woe is mankind. Woe is mankind.<br>> > > > > > The end is here. The end is here.<br>> > > > > ><br>> > > > > > sighhh.<br>> > > > > ><br>> > > > > ><br>> > > > > > Pc<br>> > > > > ><br>> > > > > ><br>> > > > > ><br>> > > > > > --------------------------------------------<br>> > > > > > On Sun, 11/24/13, Fred Schneider <fwschneider@comcast.net<mailto:fwschneider@comcast.net>> wrote:<br>> > > > > ><br>> > > > > > Subject: [PRCo] Cleveland numbers<br>> > > > > > To: "Western PA Trolley discussion"<br>> > > > > > <pittsburgh-railways@mailman.dementix.org<mailto:pittsburgh-railways@mailman.dementix.org>><br>> > > > > > Date: Sunday, November 24, 2013, 4:14 PM<br>> > > > > ><br>> > > > > > Most agencies in industrial areas had increases in the last<br>> > > > > > three years because we were coming out<br>> > > > > > of the recession. Of course if you only<br>> > > > > > look at the last three years, then you miss the large drop in<br>> > > > > > riding at the beginning of the recession.<br>> > > > > ><br>> > > > > > Cleveland had a drop of perhaps 12 million the year going into<br>> > > > > > the<br>> > > > > > 2010 recession but it appears to be masked by a series break<br>> > > > > > in the counts between 2005 and<br>> > > > > > 2006. A series break is a statistical term<br>> > > > > > when something happens to screw up the<br>> > > > > > data. The information was not sent to APTA<br>> > > > > > for 2006 leading me to suspect that perhaps the guy or gal who<br>> > > > > > was crunching the numbers in 2004 retired and the new person<br>> > > > > > didn't understand how to do it the same way and took several<br>> > > > > > years to get his or her act<br>> > > > > > together. Then in 2008, Cleveland sent in<br>> > > > > > data for both 2006 and 2007. Those 66 and 60 million numbers<br>> > > > > > in 2006 and 2007 look rather fishy.<br>> > > > > > S--t happens.<br>> > > > > ><br>> > > > > > The true numbers are probably more like a drop to about 52 or<br>> > > > > > 53 million riders in the 2000-2001 recession, then back up to<br>> > > > > > around 57 million through most of the early 200s until we hit<br>> > > > > > the big recession and then down to 44 million.<br>> > > > > ><br>> > > > > > Here are the total Cleveland numbers (Bus, Rapid, Light Rail<br>> > > > > > and Demand Responsive) since 1995 by year from the APTA website.<br>> > > > > ><br>> > > > > > 1995: 58.265 million Cleveland<br>> > > > > > city population around 492,000.<br>> > > > > > 1996: 58.736 million<br>> > > > > > 1997: 60.892 million<br>> > > > > > 1998: 60.557 million<br>> > > > > > 1999: 59.300 million<br>> > > > > > 2000: 59.116 million 2000-2001<br>> > > > > > Recession Cleveland city population 2000 census<br>> > > > > > 478,403<br>> > > > > > 2001: 58.128 million Unemployed in<br>> > > > > > Cleveland number around 45,000.<br>> > > > > > 2002: 52.626 million<br>> > > > > > 2003: 53.446 million Unemployed in<br>> > > > > > Cleveland area top 60,000<br>> > > > > > 2004: 55.419 million<br>> > > > > > 2005: 57.026 million<br>> > > > > > 2006: 66,602 million Average unemployed in<br>> > > > > > Cleveland about 62,000<br>> > > > > > 2007: 60,025 million Average unemployed in<br>> > > > > > Cleveland region around 67,000<br>> > > > > > 2008: 57,287 million 2008-2009<br>> > > > > > recession Average unemployment in Cleveland<br>> > > > > > around 72,000.<br>> > > > > > 2009: 49,706 million Unemployment over<br>> > > > > > 80,000 people in Cleveland<br>> > > > > > 2010: 44.592 million Average unemployed in<br>> > > > > > Cleveland between 95,000 and 100,000. City population<br>> > > > > > 396,815.<br>> > > > > > 2011: 46.175 million Average unemployed in<br>> > > > > > Cleveland about 82,000.<br>> > > > > > 2012: 48.152 million Unemployment in<br>> > > > > > Cleveland in the high 70,000 range.<br>> > > > > > 2012: looks like a 1/3 of 1% increase<br>> > > > > ><br>> > > > > > http://www.deptofnumbers.com/unemployment/ohio/cleveland/<br>> > > > > ><br>> > > > > > Phillip, I trust some agency numbers more than<br>> > > > > > others. Houston, for example, counts light<br>> > > > > > rail passengers as they walk through a light beam in the car<br>> > > > > > doorway. No matter how they pay their fare<br>> > > > > > ... pass, cash fare, or simply sneak on ... they are<br>> > > > > > counted. PATCO is probably fairly reliable<br>> > > > > > because every rider has a magnetically encoded ticket and they<br>> > > > > > are counted going through the fare gates.<br>> > > > > ><br>> > > > > > In addition, some counts are just plain lies because the<br>> > > > > > agencies are trying to prove to politicians that they are<br>> > > > > > worth bigger subsidies. Some are accidental<br>> > > > > > lies. Some are misunderstandings of<br>> > > > > > procedures. Some are done by clerks who<br>> > > > > > don't give a rat's ass. Some are excellent.<br>> > > > > ><br>> > > > > > But, except for the apparent break in the numbers in 2006 and<br>> > > > > > 2007, I have no reason to suspect the continuity of the<br>> > > > > > Cleveland numbers because they mirror what is happening in the<br>> > > > > > economy and with the local population.<br>> > > > > ><br>> > > > > ><br>> > > > > ><br>> > > > > ><br>> > > > > > _______________________________________________<br>> > > > > > Pittsburgh-railways mailing list<br>> > > > > > Pittsburgh-railways@mailman.dementix.org<mailto:Pittsburgh-railways@mailman.dementix.org><br>> > > > > > https://mailman.dementix.org/mailman/listinfo/pittsburgh-railw<br>> > > > > > ays<br>> > > > ><br>> > > > ><br>> > > > ><br>> > > > ><br>> > > > ><br>> > > > > _______________________________________________<br>> > > > > Pittsburgh-railways mailing list<br>> > > > > Pittsburgh-railways@mailman.dementix.org<mailto:Pittsburgh-railways@mailman.dementix.org><br>> > > > > https://mailman.dementix.org/mailman/listinfo/pittsburgh-railway<br>> > > > > s<br>> > > ><br>> > > ><br>> > > ><br>> > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was<br>> > > > scrubbed...<br>> > > > URL:<br>> > > ><br>> > > http://mailman.dementix.org/pipermail/pittsburgh-railways/attachment<br>> > > s/20131126/5e0b8ec8/attachment.html<br>> > > > _______________________________________________<br>> > > > Pittsburgh-railways mailing list<br>> > > > Pittsburgh-railways@mailman.dementix.org<mailto:Pittsburgh-railways@mailman.dementix.org><br>> > > > https://mailman.dementix.org/mailman/listinfo/pittsburgh-railways<br>> > > ><br>> > > ><br>> > > ><br>> > > ><br>> > > > _______________________________________________<br>> > > > Pittsburgh-railways mailing list<br>> > > > Pittsburgh-railways@mailman.dementix.org<mailto:Pittsburgh-railways@mailman.dementix.org><br>> > > > https://mailman.dementix.org/mailman/listinfo/pittsburgh-railways<br>> > > ><br>> > ><br>> > ><br>> > ><br>> > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was<br>> > > scrubbed...<br>> > > URL:<br>> > > http://mailman.dementix.org/pipermail/pittsburgh-railways/attachment<br>> > > s/20131126/4f467f97/attachment.html<br>> > > _______________________________________________<br>> > > Pittsburgh-railways mailing list<br>> > > Pittsburgh-railways@mailman.dementix.org<mailto:Pittsburgh-railways@mailman.dementix.org><br>> > > https://mailman.dementix.org/mailman/listinfo/pittsburgh-railways<br>> > ><br>> ><br>> ><br>> ><br>> > --<br>> > Herb Brannon<br>> ><br>> ><br>> > *In Pittsburgh.............................A City AndAnd A State of<br>> > Mind* Let's Go Pens Let's Go Steelers<br>> ><br>> ><br>> ><br>> > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was<br>> > scrubbed...<br>> > URL:<br>> > http://mailman.dementix.org/pipermail/pittsburgh-railways/attachments/<br>> > 20131126/63a2f65f/attachment.html<br>> > _______________________________________________<br>> > Pittsburgh-railways mailing list<br>> > Pittsburgh-railways@mailman.dementix.org<mailto:Pittsburgh-railways@mailman.dementix.org><br>> > https://mailman.dementix.org/mailman/listinfo/pittsburgh-railways<br>> <br>> <br>> <br>> -------------- next part --------------<br>> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...<br>> URL: http://mailman.dementix.org/pipermail/pittsburgh-railways/attachments/20131126/619a2ac8/attachment.html<br>> _______________________________________________<br>> Pittsburgh-railways mailing list<br>> Pittsburgh-railways@mailman.dementix.org<mailto:Pittsburgh-railways@mailman.dementix.org><br>> https://mailman.dementix.org/mailman/listinfo/pittsburgh-railways<br>> <br>> <br>> <br>> <br>> -------------- next part --------------<br>> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...<br>> URL: http://mailman.dementix.org/pipermail/pittsburgh-railways/attachments/20131126/48d4c6b7/attachment.html <br>> _______________________________________________<br>> Pittsburgh-railways mailing list<br>> Pittsburgh-railways@mailman.dementix.org<br>> https://mailman.dementix.org/mailman/listinfo/pittsburgh-railways<br></div> </div>
</body>
</html>