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<DIV><FONT face="Century Gothic"></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Century Gothic">John</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Century Gothic"></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Century Gothic">Which brings up a corollary: most folks,
by necessity, associate public transit with riding a BUS.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Century Gothic"></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Century Gothic">It is virtually universally true (in the USA)
that where RAIL public transit is available, the ridership has increased, and
where bus transport is also available, rail numbers have risen at a higher rate
than bus numbers.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Century Gothic"></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Century Gothic">I will ride a bus, where possible, in
preference to driving, but that does not mean that I like it. Many folks
will drive rather than taking a bus, regardless of the additional cost of
driving.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Century Gothic"></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Century Gothic">Dwight</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT: 10pt arial; BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=j_swindler@hotmail.com href="mailto:j_swindler@hotmail.com">John
Swindler</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
title=pittsburgh-railways@mailman.dementix.org
href="mailto:pittsburgh-railways@mailman.dementix.org">Western PA Trolley
discussion</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, November 26, 2013 11:50
AM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [PRCo] Cleveland
numbers</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV><BR>And we also have a 35 year old nephew-in-law who would
rather walk 7 miles when his car broke down instead of riding the local
bus. (this was 12-15 years ago) I'd put him into the norm
category. (For Fred's benefit, that was Bonnie's
son)<BR> <BR>Another comment heard several years ago was that many people
associate public transit with riding a school bus to school, and it wasn't
necessarily a pleasant experience.<BR> <BR>It's a tough business with a
lot of stereotypes to overcome.<BR> <BR><BR> <BR>> Date: Tue, 26
Nov 2013 11:34:20 -0500<BR>> From: <A
href="mailto:shadow@dementix.org">shadow@dementix.org</A><BR>> To: <A
href="mailto:pittsburgh-railways@mailman.dementix.org">pittsburgh-railways@mailman.dementix.org</A><BR>>
Subject: Re: [PRCo] Cleveland numbers<BR>> <BR>> i'm younger. well.
probably younger than the rest of you. i'm 40.<BR>> <BR>> if i can avoid
driving i do. before i had an enforced 1 month pause in<BR>> biking due to
breaking my hand i<BR>> rode 2500 miles from may 1 to september 25,
including trips to such places<BR>> as new kensington (round trip),
monroeville (also round trip), manor, and<BR>> robinson (the short way, 14
miles via steuben st, and the long way, 68<BR>> miles via glassport and
clairton.<BR>> <BR>> so yeah.<BR>> <BR>> <BR>> On Tue, Nov 26,
2013 at 11:15 AM, Lattner, Raymond <<A
href="mailto:rlattner@pa.gov">rlattner@pa.gov</A>> wrote:<BR>> <BR>>
> Who are these "younger people" that you speak of that do not want to
drive<BR>> > by choice? I can tell you<BR>> > That in my world
both my son and daughter could think of nothing but the<BR>> > day they
could obtain their<BR>> > Learners permit to drive. Ditto for buying
their own cars. This was true<BR>> > of all their friends also.<BR>>
><BR>> > Take public transit when they could drive themselves,
NEVER.<BR>> ><BR>> > Disclaimer. This was meant in a humorous way
and not to criticize your<BR>> > comments.<BR>> ><BR>> >
-----Original Message-----<BR>> > From: <A
href="mailto:pittsburgh-railways-bounces@mailman.dementix.org">pittsburgh-railways-bounces@mailman.dementix.org</A>
[mailto:<BR>> > <A
href="mailto:pittsburgh-railways-bounces@mailman.dementix.org">pittsburgh-railways-bounces@mailman.dementix.org</A>]
On Behalf Of John<BR>> > Swindler<BR>> > Sent: Tuesday, November
26, 2013 11:04 AM<BR>> > To: Western PA Trolley discussion<BR>> >
Subject: Re: [PRCo] Cleveland numbers<BR>> ><BR>> ><BR>>
><BR>> > Transit ridership is rising for several reasons. One
surprise was that<BR>> > younger people don't think the same way as us
"old geezer" generation.<BR>> > They are NOT as enamored by
autos. Not massive numbers of young people -<BR>> > just a couple
percentage points. Negligible effect on highways, but<BR>> >
significant impact on transit ridership. This comment was from Amtrak
-<BR>> > they are finding young people not only without cars, but
without drivers<BR>> > license - not by circumstances, but by
choice.<BR>> ><BR>> > Also, never realized that Amtrak handles
four oil trains a day to a<BR>> > Delaware refinery. Amtrak admits
they never saw (this traffic) coming.<BR>> ><BR>> > And we should
all be aware that VRE exists. I thought it was just a<BR>> >
couple daily commuter trains from Virginia into Washington. Didn't
realize<BR>> > that it was 30 daily trains. Busiest
station?? If assumed it was Union<BR>> > Station, would be
wrong. It's L'Enfant Plaza. VRE is currently at<BR>> >
capacity and has more cars on-order. Also negotiating with railroads
for<BR>> > extensions to both lines.<BR>> ><BR>> > MARC
ridership was around 18,000 in 1997. Currently around 36,000
riders.<BR>> > It's seen a 3.5% average annual growth over past 15
years.<BR>> ><BR>> ><BR>> ><BR>> > > From: <A
href="mailto:fwschneider@comcast.net">fwschneider@comcast.net</A><BR>> >
> Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2013 10:25:48 -0500<BR>> > > To: <A
href="mailto:pittsburgh-railways@mailman.dementix.org">pittsburgh-railways@mailman.dementix.org</A><BR>>
> > Subject: Re: [PRCo] Cleveland numbers<BR>> > ><BR>> >
> The positive numbers are in the western and southwestern
cities. Los<BR>> > Angeles has more rail riders today
than Pacific Electric had in their 1923<BR>> > peak.<BR>> >
><BR>> > ><BR>> > ><BR>> > > On Nov 26, 2013, at
6:18 AM, PC wrote:<BR>> > ><BR>> > > >
..........><<A
href="http://mailman.dementix.org/pipermail/pittsburgh-railway">http://mailman.dementix.org/pipermail/pittsburgh-railway</A><BR>>
> > > s/2013-November/032450.html> ..........>from Fred
Schneider<BR>> > > > fwschneider at comcast.net ..........>Sun
Nov 24 11:32:53 EST 2013<BR>> > > ><BR>> > > >
..........>Do not know where you find positive Cleveland
numbers.....<BR>> > > ><BR>> > > > The above is your
original question isn't it. You could not find<BR>> > positive
Cleveland Numbers. I answered that question didn't I.<BR>> > >
> Positive Cleveland numbers were provided. Now all this
below.......<BR>> > > > You seem disappointed that ridership is
rising--transit ridership,<BR>> > trolley, tram, bus--interests of
people on this list.<BR>> > > > How is it possible to please
you?<BR>> > > ><BR>> > > > To address Cleveland
ridership one observes the trend is sloping<BR>> > > > downward
with occasional rises above and dips below this trendline.<BR>> >
This is very openly noticed and admitted, along with the following:<BR>>
> > > 1-birds are hatched, birds grow, birds live, birds grow old,
birds die.<BR>> > > > 2-animals are born, animals grow, animals
live, animals grow old,<BR>> > animals die.<BR>> > > >
3-plants sprout, plants grow, plants live, plants grow old, plants
die.<BR>> > > > 4-People are born, people grow, people live,
people grow old, people<BR>> > die.<BR>> > > > 5-a business
is formed, the business grows, the business thrives, the<BR>> > business
grows old, the business dies.<BR>> > > > 6-industries form,
industries grow, industries thrive, industries<BR>> > grows old,
industries die.<BR>> > > > 7-etc.<BR>> > > >
8-Everything has its day in the sun [then trundles into the mists of<BR>>
> > > history.] Vanity vanity; all is vanity. King
Solomon<BR>> > > ><BR>> > > > Nothing lasts forever
does it. Nothing is all inclusive isn't it.<BR>> > >
><BR>> > > > But if it makes you happy:<BR>> > >
><BR>> > > > People are falling off transit! People are
falling off transit!<BR>> > > > The sky is falling! The sky
is falling!<BR>> > > > Woe is mankind. Woe is
mankind.<BR>> > > > The end is here. The end is
here.<BR>> > > ><BR>> > > > sighhh.<BR>> > >
><BR>> > > ><BR>> > > > Pc<BR>> > >
><BR>> > > ><BR>> > > ><BR>> > > >
--------------------------------------------<BR>> > > > On Sun,
11/24/13, Fred Schneider <<A
href="mailto:fwschneider@comcast.net">fwschneider@comcast.net</A>>
wrote:<BR>> > > ><BR>> > > > Subject: [PRCo] Cleveland
numbers<BR>> > > > To: "Western PA Trolley discussion"<BR>>
> > > <<A
href="mailto:pittsburgh-railways@mailman.dementix.org">pittsburgh-railways@mailman.dementix.org</A>><BR>>
> > > Date: Sunday, November 24, 2013, 4:14 PM<BR>> > >
><BR>> > > > Most agencies in industrial areas had increases in
the last three<BR>> > > > years because we were coming out<BR>>
> > > of the recession. Of course if you only<BR>>
> > > look at the last three years, then you miss the large drop in
riding<BR>> > > > at the beginning of the recession.<BR>> >
> ><BR>> > > > Cleveland had a drop of perhaps 12 million
the year going into the<BR>> > > > 2010 recession but it appears
to be masked by a series break in the<BR>> > > > counts between
2005 and<BR>> > > > 2006. A series break is a
statistical term<BR>> > > > when something happens to screw up
the<BR>> > > > data. The information was not sent to
APTA<BR>> > > > for 2006 leading me to suspect that perhaps the
guy or gal who was<BR>> > > > crunching the numbers in 2004
retired and the new person didn't<BR>> > > > understand how to do
it the same way and took several years to get<BR>> > > > his or
her act<BR>> > > > together. Then in 2008, Cleveland
sent in<BR>> > > > data for both 2006 and 2007. Those 66 and
60 million<BR>> > > > numbers in 2006 and 2007 look rather
fishy.<BR>> > > > S--t happens.<BR>> > > ><BR>>
> > > The true numbers are probably more like a drop to about 52 or
53<BR>> > > > million riders in the 2000-2001 recession, then back
up to around 57<BR>> > > > million through most of the early 200s
until we hit the big<BR>> > > > recession and then down to
44<BR>> > > > million.<BR>> > > ><BR>> > >
> Here are the total Cleveland numbers (Bus, Rapid, Light Rail and<BR>>
> > > Demand Responsive) since 1995 by year from the APTA
website.<BR>> > > ><BR>> > > > 1995: 58.265
million Cleveland<BR>> > > > city
population around 492,000.<BR>> > > > 1996: 58.736 million<BR>>
> > > 1997: 60.892 million<BR>> > > > 1998: 60.557
million<BR>> > > > 1999: 59.300 million<BR>> > > >
2000: 59.116 million 2000-2001<BR>> > > >
Recession Cleveland city population 2000 census<BR>> >
> > 478,403<BR>> > > > 2001: 58.128
million Unemployed in<BR>> > > > Cleveland
number around 45,000.<BR>> > > > 2002: 52.626 million<BR>> >
> > 2003: 53.446 million Unemployed in<BR>>
> > > Cleveland area top 60,000<BR>> > > > 2004: 55.419
million<BR>> > > > 2005: 57.026 million<BR>> > > >
2006: 66,602 million Average unemployed in<BR>> > > >
Cleveland about 62,000<BR>> > > > 2007: 60,025 million
Average unemployed in<BR>> > > > Cleveland region around
67,000<BR>> > > > 2008: 57,287 million
2008-2009<BR>> > > > recession Average
unemployment in Cleveland<BR>> > > > around 72,000.<BR>> >
> > 2009: 49,706 million Unemployment over<BR>> > >
> 80,000 people in Cleveland<BR>> > > > 2010: 44.592
million Average unemployed in<BR>> > > > Cleveland
between 95,000 and 100,000. City population<BR>> > > >
396,815.<BR>> > > > 2011: 46.175 million Average
unemployed in<BR>> > > > Cleveland about 82,000.<BR>> > >
> 2012: 48.152 million Unemployment in<BR>> > > >
Cleveland in the high 70,000 range.<BR>> > > > 2012: looks like a
1/3 of 1% increase<BR>> > > ><BR>> > >
> <A
href="http://www.deptofnumbers.com/unemployment/ohio/cleveland/">http://www.deptofnumbers.com/unemployment/ohio/cleveland/</A><BR>>
> > ><BR>> > > > Phillip, I trust some agency numbers
more than<BR>> > > > others. Houston, for example,
counts light<BR>> > > > rail passengers as they walk through a
light beam in the car<BR>> > > > doorway. No matter
how they pay their fare<BR>> > > > ... pass, cash fare, or simply
sneak on ... they are<BR>> > > > counted. PATCO is
probably fairly reliable<BR>> > > > because every rider has a
magnetically encoded ticket and they are<BR>> > > > counted going
through the fare gates.<BR>> > > ><BR>> > > > In
addition, some counts are just plain lies because the agencies<BR>> >
> > are trying to prove to politicians that they are<BR>> > >
> worth bigger subsidies. Some are accidental<BR>> > >
> lies. Some are misunderstandings of<BR>> > > >
procedures. Some are done by clerks who<BR>> > > >
don't give a rat's ass. Some are<BR>> > > >
excellent.<BR>> > > ><BR>> > > > But, except for the
apparent break in the numbers in 2006 and 2007,<BR>> > > > I have
no reason to suspect the continuity of the Cleveland numbers<BR>> > >
> because they mirror what is happening in the economy and with the<BR>>
> > > local population.<BR>> > > ><BR>> > >
><BR>> > > ><BR>> > > ><BR>> > > >
_______________________________________________<BR>> > > >
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> ><BR>> > ><BR>> > ><BR>> > ><BR>> >
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