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<DIV><FONT size=4>Bob</FONT></DIV>
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<DIV><FONT size=4>Not related to buses except consequentially, but I did ride
the last runs of the trams.</FONT></DIV>
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<DIV><FONT size=4>Dwight</FONT></DIV>
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<DIV style="font-color: black"><B>From:</B> <A title=bobrathke@comcast.net
href="mailto:bobrathke@comcast.net">Bob Rathke</A> </DIV>
<DIV><B>Sent:</B> Sunday, 15 December, 2013 17:42</DIV>
<DIV><B>To:</B> <A title=pittsburgh-railways@mailman.dementix.org
href="mailto:pittsburgh-railways@mailman.dementix.org">Western PA Trolley
discussion</A> </DIV>
<DIV><B>Subject:</B> Re: [PRCo] visual pollution or work of
art</DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV>
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<DIV
style='FONT-SIZE: small; TEXT-DECORATION: none; FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri"; FONT-WEIGHT: normal; COLOR: #000000; FONT-STYLE: normal; DISPLAY: inline'>When
PRC bussed the 1-Spring Garden and 5-Spring Hill lines in Oct., 1957, they
replaced the trolleys with then-new Mack buses. The Mack buses handled the hill
with ease, but in 1958 GM buses started to appear on Spring Hill and they really
labored just to maintain a slow speed. <BR><BR>----- Original Message
-----<BR><BR>From: "Fred Schneider" <fwschneider@comcast.net> <BR>To:
"Western PA Trolley discussion" <pittsburgh-railways@mailman.dementix.org>
<BR>Sent: Sunday, December 15, 2013 11:11:28 AM <BR>Subject: Re: [PRCo] visual
pollution or work of art <BR><BR>I was not aware that Paris was conduit
also. My library on Germany, Switzerland and Britain is extensive …
then it gets a little thin. Paris was also one of those cities that
quit before <BR><BR>Explaining Dayton would be like trying to explain why a
retard in Johnstown thought he was doing something right by converting
streetcars to trolley buses in 1960 when he could see he was already losing his
shirt. <BR><BR>I am not sure how much difference the trolley bus performance is
compared to today's diesels and better transmissions. If you
were talking 1950, I would have given you a resounding AMEN. Today I
am not sure. I remember ACF Brill C36 buses crawling up Kissel Hill
at 15 mph in second gear in the 1950s heading into Lititz. Today's
newer diesels sail up at 40. <BR><BR>On Dec 13, 2013, at 4:46 PM,
Dwight Long wrote: <BR><BR>> <BR>> Fred <BR>> <BR>> Two points.
<BR>> <BR>> 1) Add Paris <BR>> <BR>> 2) Not just cost of
fuel, but operational performance on those SF hills. Somewhat similar
situation in Seattle. But who can explain Dayton? <BR>> <BR>> Dwight
<BR>> <BR>> From: Fred Schneider <BR>> Sent: Friday, 13 December, 2013
12:34 <BR>> To: Western PA Trolley discussion <BR>> Subject: Re: [PRCo]
visual pollution or work of art <BR>> I think there is a basic premise that
if you put two people in a room, Dennis, you have a potential
argument. Politicians have learned to use them to their
advantage. <BR>> <BR>> As Phillip pointed out, the long lens can be
deliberately used to make the trolley wires look ugly. The telephoto
lens can also be used in hilly cities like San Francisco and Pittsburgh to
enhance the view, make the streets look steeper, and make the distant objects
seem closer. If we used a 28 mm lens to take the slide (or 15
mm on digital) many of us would never find the wires objectionable.
But there will always be those who will see the ugly … otherwise New York,
Washington and London would have never been forced to invest fortunes in
underground conduit to power their trolley lines. <BR>> <BR>> But I see
nothing more than a San Francisco Chronicle photographer who was asked to make
it look ugly to support the visual pollution theme in the article.
He was sent out to prove a point. Very little journalism today is
unbiased. You get readers, then advertisers, and make money if you
jump into the middle of a debate. <BR>> <BR>> In the 1940s,
General Electric published a booklet in which they aimed, of course, to sell
their hardware. They explained that if you could fill your vehicle,
on average, every five minutes, then buy PCC cars. If the traffic
required service every 5 to 7 minutes, use trolley buses. Over 7
minutes, use diesel buses. If the service was erratic, then use
gasoline buses. Of course those were average economics in the
1940s. That window for trolley buses vanished as we bought cars after the
war and most cities which bought them found they had made a huge mistake by the
early 1950s. San Francisco was the exception because the city owned
its own hydro-electric plant in the Sierra Nevada mountains … except for paying
Pacific Gas and Electric a transmission charge, the power was almost
free. So while most cities got rid of their trackless trolleys, Muni
kept theirs. I guess if Muni has any sense, they will keep the
electric network because the price of fossil fuels can only go up as the global
supply diminishes. <BR>> <BR>> Wouldn't you like to see a
survey showing how many of the complainers about the visual pollution from the
wires ride transit and how many drive their own cars? And perhaps
also how many realize how much their taxes might go up if they had to pay for
fossil fuels to run the network and how many of the protesters are
clueless? <BR>> <BR>> <BR>> <BR>> <BR>> On Dec 13,
2013, at 6:44 AM, DF Cramer wrote: <BR>> <BR>>> Not
Pennsylvania-----but some of us consider wire work an integral part of the
electric transit experience and some do not. You decide----I think the
photographer was leaning towards art. <BR>>>
http://www.sfgate.com/bayarea/article/Muni-trolley-wire-visual-pollution-electrifies-5056671.php
<BR>>> <BR>>> Dennis F. Cramer <BR>>>
http://home.windstream.net/dfc1/
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