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<DIV><FONT size=4>Fred</FONT></DIV>
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<DIV><FONT size=4>Was not the full name of the company Noble J.
Dick?</FONT></DIV>
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<DIV><FONT size=4>Dwight</FONT></DIV>
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<DIV style="font-color: black"><B>From:</B> <A title=fwschneider@comcast.net
href="mailto:fwschneider@comcast.net">Fred Schneider</A> </DIV>
<DIV><B>Sent:</B> Sunday, 15 December, 2013 19:50</DIV>
<DIV><B>To:</B> <A title=pittsburgh-railways@mailman.dementix.org
href="mailto:pittsburgh-railways@mailman.dementix.org">Western PA Trolley
discussion</A> </DIV>
<DIV><B>Subject:</B> Re: [PRCo] visual pollution or work of
art</DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV>
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style='FONT-SIZE: small; TEXT-DECORATION: none; FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri"; FONT-WEIGHT: normal; COLOR: #000000; FONT-STYLE: normal; DISPLAY: inline'>Is
that a maintenance issue or a design flaw, Herb? You might use that
turn signal ten times a mile on a bus if its a busy urban route. You
might use it ten times a day in your own automobile. You would put
more wear on the turn signal mechanism in six months on that bus than you would
on the one in your car between the time it rolled off the showroom floor and you
towed it to the junkyard. <BR><BR>I have to admit that I have ridden
very few buses since the transit agencies became wards of
government. It isn't the same fun it was going out to McKeesport on
the trolley and coming back on Noble Dick's bus. (I love that
name.) They all look alike today. But back in the old
days when the earth was still cooling, I cannot remember a lot of
problems. I never saw a driver holding the turn signal to keep it
flashing. So I suspect it is just a case of transit authorities not
wishing to spend bucks that governments aren't giving them. They've
probably been told to keep them on the streets until enough goes wrong to
justify getting a federal grant to do a complete overhaul.
<BR><BR>Herb, I remember driving a school bus one day that had a brake
failure. The school district business manager's response was, "It's
an old bus and we don't plan to fix it." My immediate comment was,
"If a kid gets hurt, I will have a very long memory. Think about
that." A week later I was called in my classroom at the end of the
day to take a bus run for a driver who didn't show up. I asked what
bus. I was told it was the one I complained about but not to worry,
they had spent over a thousand dollars fixing it so that they wouldn't have me
telling the newspapers. Herb, it was an old bus … and I knew how to
double-clutch it and use the engine to help stop me when the brake pedal went to
the floor. Can you imagine someone who didn't know how to downshift
it? <BR><BR>But when I first saw those foot pedal turn signals in
Atlanta as a 16-year-old, I thought it was a neat idea to use the left foot that
wasn't otherwise needed on an automatic GM. Left hand steers, left
foot hits the turn signal, right hand makes change … talk about
multi-tasking. You could not have done that with a manual
transmission Brill or Ford. Hell, you would have needed both hands
just to steer it away from the curb.<BR><BR><BR>On Dec 15, 2013, at 7:08 PM,
Herb Brannon wrote:<BR><BR>> New York TA started using them in the 1950s.
Columbus, OH had some GM New<BR>> Looks with them in the 1960s. The buses
equipped with the turn signal<BR>> "arms" on the steering column were always
a pain in the @$$. The arms,<BR>> after they wore out, required the operator
to keep hands on the arm to keep<BR>> the signal flashing. I have had them
fall off the steering column because<BR>> they were so worn out they couldn't
take it any longer. Typical of US auto<BR>> manufacturers (GM to be exact) to
think every vehicle could use the same<BR>> flimsy piece of equipment no
matter how much service it was to see. New<BR>> York started the foot switch
because of "hands on the steering wheel"<BR>> safety reasons. Not sure about
Columbus.<BR>> <BR>> <BR>> On Sun, Dec 15, 2013 at 6:42 PM, Fred
Schneider <fwschneider@comcast.net>wrote:<BR>> <BR>>> Where did
the idea for foot operated turn signals originate Herb?
Any<BR>>> idea?<BR>>> <BR>>> I first saw such a thing on
Atlanta Transit System buses back in 1956.<BR>>> <BR>>> <BR>>>
<BR>>> On Dec 15, 2013, at 5:58 PM, Herb Brannon wrote:<BR>>>
<BR>>>> The GM's were a problem when I worked at PATransit also. PAT
purchases of<BR>>>> GM buses beginning with the 2100-series had an
interesting option on<BR>>> them.<BR>>>> The left side of the bus
floor, by the pedals, (where the deadman pedal<BR>>>> would be on a
PCC) had four (4) foot operated switches. One was the<BR>>>>
high-beam/low beam headlamp control, another two were the left and
right<BR>>>> turn signals and the fourth one was to the rear of the
turn signal<BR>>>> switches. This switch was a "transmission override"
which, when pushed<BR>>> with<BR>>>> the left heel, would cause
the transmission to drop from high to low<BR>>> gear.<BR>>>> This
was for use on the hills. When the bus would "dog out" going up
the<BR>>>> hill you would kick the transmission into low using this
floor switch and<BR>>>> would keep going up the hill at a somewhat
reasonable rate of speed.<BR>>>> <BR>>>> Some thought was
actually put into the placement of the four switches on<BR>>>> the
floor. You could rest your left foot with the shoe-toe between the<BR>>>
turn<BR>>>> signal switches and the left shoe-heel just to the right of
the<BR>>>> transmission override switch. You could then operate those
three switches<BR>>>> just with a simple quick movement of the left toe
or heel to the desired<BR>>>> switch. The high beam switch required the
foot to be lifted up and over<BR>>> the<BR>>>> turn signal
switches to hit it. However, this switch was not used that<BR>>>>
often. Also, the placement of these switches was so that the left
foot<BR>>> was<BR>>>> in a comfortable position, similar to the
position of the left foot on a<BR>>>> PCC deadman
pedal.<BR>>>> <BR>>>> <BR>>>> On Sun, Dec 15, 2013 at
5:42 PM, Bob Rathke <bobrathke@comcast.net><BR>>>
wrote:<BR>>>> <BR>>>>> When PRC bussed the 1-Spring Garden
and 5-Spring Hill lines in Oct.,<BR>>> 1957,<BR>>>>> they
replaced the trolleys with then-new Mack buses. The Mack buses<BR>>>
handled<BR>>>>> the hill with ease, but in 1958 GM buses started to
appear on Spring<BR>>> Hill<BR>>>>> and they really labored
just to maintain a slow speed.<BR>>>>> <BR>>>>> -----
Original Message -----<BR>>>>> <BR>>>>> From: "Fred
Schneider" <fwschneider@comcast.net><BR>>>>> To: "Western PA
Trolley discussion" <<BR>>>>>
pittsburgh-railways@mailman.dementix.org><BR>>>>> Sent: Sunday,
December 15, 2013 11:11:28 AM<BR>>>>> Subject: Re: [PRCo] visual
pollution or work of art<BR>>>>> <BR>>>>> I was not
aware that Paris was conduit also. My library on
Germany,<BR>>>>> Switzerland and Britain is extensive … then it gets
a little thin.<BR>>> Paris<BR>>>>> was also one of those
cities that quit before<BR>>>>> <BR>>>>> Explaining
Dayton would be like trying to explain why a retard in<BR>>>>>
Johnstown thought he was doing something right by converting
streetcars<BR>>> to<BR>>>>> trolley buses in 1960 when he
could see he was already losing his shirt.<BR>>>>>
<BR>>>>> I am not sure how much difference the trolley bus
performance is<BR>>> compared<BR>>>>> to today's diesels and
better transmissions. If you were talking<BR>>> 1950,
I<BR>>>>> would have given you a resounding AMEN. Today
I am not sure. I<BR>>> remember<BR>>>>> ACF Brill
C36 buses crawling up Kissel Hill at 15 mph in second gear in<BR>>>
the<BR>>>>> 1950s heading into Lititz. Today's newer
diesels sail up at 40.<BR>>>>> <BR>>>>> On Dec 13, 2013,
at 4:46 PM, Dwight Long wrote:<BR>>>>> <BR>>>>>>
<BR>>>>>> Fred<BR>>>>>> <BR>>>>>>
Two points.<BR>>>>>> <BR>>>>>> 1) Add
Paris<BR>>>>>> <BR>>>>>> 2) Not just cost of
fuel, but operational performance on those SF<BR>>>>> hills.
Somewhat similar situation in Seattle. But who can explain<BR>>>
Dayton?<BR>>>>>> <BR>>>>>>
Dwight<BR>>>>>> <BR>>>>>> From: Fred
Schneider<BR>>>>>> Sent: Friday, 13 December, 2013
12:34<BR>>>>>> To: Western PA Trolley
discussion<BR>>>>>> Subject: Re: [PRCo] visual pollution or work
of art<BR>>>>>> I think there is a basic premise that if you put
two people in a room,<BR>>>>> Dennis, you have a potential
argument. Politicians have learned to<BR>>>
use<BR>>>>> them to their advantage.<BR>>>>>>
<BR>>>>>> As Phillip pointed out, the long lens can be
deliberately used to make<BR>>>>> the trolley wires look
ugly. The telephoto lens can also be used in<BR>>>
hilly<BR>>>>> cities like San Francisco and Pittsburgh to enhance
the view, make the<BR>>>>> streets look steeper, and make the
distant objects seem closer. If we<BR>>>>> used a
28 mm lens to take the slide (or 15 mm on digital) many of us<BR>>>
would<BR>>>>> never find the wires objectionable. But
there will always be those who<BR>>>>> will see the ugly … otherwise
New York, Washington and London would have<BR>>>>> never been forced
to invest fortunes in underground conduit to power<BR>>>
their<BR>>>>> trolley lines.<BR>>>>>>
<BR>>>>>> But I see nothing more than a San Francisco Chronicle
photographer who<BR>>>>> was asked to make it look ugly to support
the visual pollution theme in<BR>>> the<BR>>>>>
article. He was sent out to prove a point. Very little
journalism<BR>>> today<BR>>>>> is unbiased. You
get readers, then advertisers, and make money if you<BR>>>>> jump
into the middle of a debate.<BR>>>>>> <BR>>>>>> In
the 1940s, General Electric published a booklet in which they
aimed,<BR>>>>> of course, to sell their hardware. They
explained that if you could<BR>>> fill<BR>>>>> your vehicle,
on average, every five minutes, then buy PCC cars. If<BR>>>
the<BR>>>>> traffic required service every 5 to 7 minutes, use
trolley buses.<BR>>> Over 7<BR>>>>> minutes, use diesel
buses. If the service was erratic, then use<BR>>>
gasoline<BR>>>>> buses. Of course those were average
economics in the 1940s. That<BR>>> window<BR>>>>> for
trolley buses vanished as we bought cars after the war and most<BR>>>
cities<BR>>>>> which bought them found they had made a huge mistake
by the early 1950s.<BR>>>>> San Francisco was the exception because
the city owned its own<BR>>>>> hydro-electric plant in the Sierra
Nevada mountains … except for paying<BR>>>>> Pacific Gas and
Electric a transmission charge, the power was almost<BR>>>
free.<BR>>>>> So while most cities got rid of their trackless
trolleys, Muni kept<BR>>>>> theirs. I guess if Muni has
any sense, they will keep the electric<BR>>>>> network because the
price of fossil fuels can only go up as the global<BR>>>>> supply
diminishes.<BR>>>>>> <BR>>>>>> Wouldn't you like
to see a survey showing how many of the complainers<BR>>>>> about
the visual pollution from the wires ride transit and how many<BR>>>
drive<BR>>>>> their own cars? And perhaps also how many
realize how much their taxes<BR>>>>> might go up if they had to pay
for fossil fuels to run the network and<BR>>> how<BR>>>>> many
of the protesters are clueless?<BR>>>>>> <BR>>>>>>
<BR>>>>>> <BR>>>>>> <BR>>>>>> On
Dec 13, 2013, at 6:44 AM, DF Cramer wrote:<BR>>>>>>
<BR>>>>>>> Not Pennsylvania-----but some of us consider wire
work an integral<BR>>> part<BR>>>>> of the electric transit
experience and some do not. You decide----I<BR>>>
think<BR>>>>> the photographer was leaning towards
art.<BR>>>>>>> <BR>>>>> <BR>>>
http://www.sfgate.com/bayarea/article/Muni-trolley-wire-visual-pollution-electrifies-5056671.php<BR>>>>>>>
<BR>>>>>>> Dennis F. Cramer<BR>>>>>>>
http://home.windstream.net/dfc1/<BR>>>>>>>
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<BR>>>> <BR>>>> <BR>>>> <BR>>>>
--<BR>>>> Herb Brannon<BR>>>> <BR>>>>
<BR>>>> *In Pittsburgh.............................A City And.........A
State of<BR>>>> Mind *<BR>>>> Let's Go Pens<BR>>>>
Let's Go Steelers<BR>>>> <BR>>>> <BR>>>>
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<BR>> <BR>> <BR>> <BR>> -- <BR>> Herb Brannon<BR>> <BR>>
<BR>> *In Pittsburgh.............................A City And.........A State
of<BR>> Mind *<BR>> Let's Go Pens<BR>> Let's Go Steelers<BR>>
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