<html><body><div style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 12pt; color: #000000"><DIV aria-label="Compose body">When PRC bussed the 1-Spring Garden and 5-Spring Hill lines in Oct., 1957, they replaced the trolleys with then-new Mack buses. The Mack buses handled the hill with ease, but in 1958 GM buses started to appear on Spring Hill and they really labored just to maintain a slow speed. <BR></DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<HR id=zwchr>
<DIV style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; TEXT-DECORATION: none; FONT-FAMILY: Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif; FONT-WEIGHT: normal; COLOR: #000; FONT-STYLE: normal" data-mce-style="color: #000; font-weight: normal; font-style: normal; text-decoration: none; font-family: Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;"><B>From: </B>"Fred Schneider" <fwschneider@comcast.net><BR><B>To: </B>"Western PA Trolley discussion" <pittsburgh-railways@mailman.dementix.org><BR><B>Sent: </B>Sunday, December 15, 2013 11:11:28 AM<BR><B>Subject: </B>Re: [PRCo] visual pollution or work of art<BR>
<DIV><BR></DIV>I was not aware that Paris was conduit also. My library on Germany, Switzerland and Britain is extensive … then it gets a little thin. Paris was also one of those cities that quit before <BR>
<DIV><BR></DIV>Explaining Dayton would be like trying to explain why a retard in Johnstown thought he was doing something right by converting streetcars to trolley buses in 1960 when he could see he was already losing his shirt. <BR>
<DIV><BR></DIV>I am not sure how much difference the trolley bus performance is compared to today's diesels and better transmissions. If you were talking 1950, I would have given you a resounding AMEN. Today I am not sure. I remember ACF Brill C36 buses crawling up Kissel Hill at 15 mph in second gear in the 1950s heading into Lititz. Today's newer diesels sail up at 40. <BR>
<DIV><BR></DIV>On Dec 13, 2013, at 4:46 PM, Dwight Long wrote:<BR>
<DIV><BR></DIV>> <BR>> Fred<BR>> <BR>> Two points.<BR>> <BR>> 1) Add Paris<BR>> <BR>> 2) Not just cost of fuel, but operational performance on those SF hills. Somewhat similar situation in Seattle. But who can explain Dayton?<BR>> <BR>> Dwight<BR>> <BR>> From: Fred Schneider <BR>> Sent: Friday, 13 December, 2013 12:34<BR>> To: Western PA Trolley discussion <BR>> Subject: Re: [PRCo] visual pollution or work of art<BR>> I think there is a basic premise that if you put two people in a room, Dennis, you have a potential argument. Politicians have learned to use them to their advantage.<BR>> <BR>> As Phillip pointed out, the long lens can be deliberately used to make the trolley wires look ugly. The telephoto lens can also be used in hilly cities like San Francisco and Pittsburgh to enhance the view, make the streets look steeper, and make the distant objects seem closer. If we used a 28 mm lens to take the slide (or 15 mm on digital) many of us would never find the wires objectionable. But there will always be those who will see the ugly … otherwise New York, Washington and London would have never been forced to invest fortunes in underground conduit to power their trolley lines.<BR>> <BR>> But I see nothing more than a San Francisco Chronicle photographer who was asked to make it look ugly to support the visual pollution theme in the article. He was sent out to prove a point. Very little journalism today is unbiased. You get readers, then advertisers, and make money if you jump into the middle of a debate. <BR>> <BR>> In the 1940s, General Electric published a booklet in which they aimed, of course, to sell their hardware. They explained that if you could fill your vehicle, on average, every five minutes, then buy PCC cars. If the traffic required service every 5 to 7 minutes, use trolley buses. Over 7 minutes, use diesel buses. If the service was erratic, then use gasoline buses. Of course those were average economics in the 1940s. That window for trolley buses vanished as we bought cars after the war and most cities which bought them found they had made a huge mistake by the early 1950s. San Francisco was the exception because the city owned its own hydro-electric plant in the Sierra Nevada mountains … except for paying Pacific Gas and Electric a transmission charge, the power was almost free. So while most cities got rid of their trackless trolleys, Muni kept theirs. I guess if Muni has any sense, they will keep the electric network because the price of fossil fuels can only go up as the global supply diminishes. <BR>> <BR>> Wouldn't you like to see a survey showing how many of the complainers about the visual pollution from the wires ride transit and how many drive their own cars? And perhaps also how many realize how much their taxes might go up if they had to pay for fossil fuels to run the network and how many of the protesters are clueless? <BR>> <BR>> <BR>> <BR>> <BR>> On Dec 13, 2013, at 6:44 AM, DF Cramer wrote:<BR>> <BR>>> Not Pennsylvania-----but some of us consider wire work an integral part of the electric transit experience and some do not. You decide----I think the photographer was leaning towards art.<BR>>> http://www.sfgate.com/bayarea/article/Muni-trolley-wire-visual-pollution-electrifies-5056671.php<BR>>> <BR>>> Dennis F. Cramer <BR>>> http://home.windstream.net/dfc1/ <BR>>> <BR>>> <BR>>> -------------- next part --------------<BR>>> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...<BR>>> URL: http://mailman.dementix.org/pipermail/pittsburgh-railways/attachments/20131213/9b4ac8ba/attachment.html <BR>>> _______________________________________________<BR>>> Pittsburgh-railways mailing list<BR>>> Pittsburgh-railways@mailman.dementix.org<BR>>> https://mailman.dementix.org/mailman/listinfo/pittsburgh-railways<BR>> <BR>> <BR>> <BR>> <BR>> <BR>> _______________________________________________<BR>> Pittsburgh-railways mailing list<BR>> Pittsburgh-railways@mailman.dementix.org<BR>> https://mailman.dementix.org/mailman/listinfo/pittsburgh-railways<BR>> <BR>> <BR>> <BR>> -------------- next part --------------<BR>> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...<BR>> URL: http://mailman.dementix.org/pipermail/pittsburgh-railways/attachments/20131213/f1c24917/attachment.html <BR>> _______________________________________________<BR>> Pittsburgh-railways mailing list<BR>> Pittsburgh-railways@mailman.dementix.org<BR>> https://mailman.dementix.org/mailman/listinfo/pittsburgh-railways<BR>
<DIV><BR></DIV><BR>
<DIV><BR></DIV><BR>
<DIV><BR></DIV>_______________________________________________<BR>Pittsburgh-railways mailing list<BR>Pittsburgh-railways@mailman.dementix.org<BR>https://mailman.dementix.org/mailman/listinfo/pittsburgh-railways<BR></DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV></div>
</body></html>