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<DIV><FONT face="Century Gothic"></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Century Gothic">Fred</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Century Gothic"></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Century Gothic">Under ideal circumstances and with a trained
(they had to be operated like a T1 was supposed to be and too many
enginemen tried to operate them like K4s, which gave rise to the "slippery"
rep) and motivated engineer, the T1 actually worked and worked well.
Things were not ideal on the PRR, however, and they did not take the effort, as
NYC did with their Niagaras, to make them as close to ideal as possible.
But even if they had, they would have gone the same way as the Niagaras.
They simply could not compete with the economics of diesel electric motive
power. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Century Gothic"></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Century Gothic">Santa Fe had some "advanced 1920s" steam power
built in the 30s and also some "war babies" (Texas types) built during
WWII. The latter were acquired only because the ODT would not authorize
further production of FTs, of which the Santa Fe was an early adopter, and which
they would have preferred to acquire. Uncle John did not buy any new steam
locos after the war. Interestingly it was the Santa Fe 2-10-4s that were
borrowed by the PRR in 1956 so that they would not have to perform heavy
overhauls on their own steam power to meet the increased traffic of that
summer. Symes was interested in how the Santa Fe locos performed compared
with the J1 class, and had tests run. The Santa Fe locos were marginally
better. I think some J1s lasted into 1957, but you are certainly correct
that Columbus to Sandusky in the summer of 1956 was their last big
show.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Century Gothic"></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Century Gothic">Dwight</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
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<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT: 10pt arial; BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=fwschneider@comcast.net href="mailto:fwschneider@comcast.net">Fred
Schneider</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
title=pittsburgh-railways@mailman.dementix.org
href="mailto:pittsburgh-railways@mailman.dementix.org">Western PA Trolley
discussion</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Thursday, May 15, 2014 3:11
PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [PRCo] UMW blamed for
diesels</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>I would have to agree with the statement you copied, Dwight,
that the enthusiasts' interest is inversely proportional to the carriers
economic viability. You could probably sell 100 books on the Rio
Grande Southern for every one on the economics of moving freight trains at
streetcar headways on the Union Pacific. Same thing applies with our
trolleys … the lines we loved the most in Pittsburgh were things like 23
Sewickley or 29 Thornburg … not the money making ones like 88 Frankstown or 22
Crosstown or 85 Bedford.<BR><BR>How many modern steam locomotives do you
know? The modern ones were bought by dumb railroaders who should
have bought diesels. The N&W J class and Y6bs and As were rare
in the industry. So were the Nickel Plate Berkshires. The
Santa Fe probably had their share of modern power because it was cheaper than
sending a shop crew 100 miles out into the Mojave Desert to put an engine back
together. The bulk of what was out there even into the mid 1950s
were critters built in the teens and twenties with friction
bearings. <BR><BR>Now if we are talking crews … that took a strike
by the FEC that went on for months about 1963 to end it on one railroad, then
Amtrak to end it on national passenger service, and eventually it
disappeared. But even Penn Central had 100 mile engine crew days
and 150 mile train crew days. That meant an engineman working from
Harrisburg to Philadelphia got paid 1.03 days for somewhere between 105 and
140 minutes actual work plus 30 minutes additional report time. Make a
round trip in one day and you get 2.06 days pay. Work three days a
week and you get 6 1/4 days pay. I think when the
Metroliners were put into service, they had some guys working Washington - New
York that made a round trip in one day … something like 6 or 7 hours …
and got close to 4 days pay for that. Obscene. <BR><BR>We had that
argument ten days ago about the idiocy of building the T-1 from scratch and
where they are going to run the sucker. And I will repeat what I said
then, "If we're going to build something from scratch, a New York Central J3
Hudson makes a whole lot more sense than replicating something that was no
good when it was new." The J-1 was slippery on
starting. It enveloped the crews in a rolling dust
cloud. They tried to correct the problems with one or two of them
that had the poppet valves replaced with Walschart valve gear and piston
valves … I think 5547 was one of those. But when you are at the
end of the rope with a piece of junk, you don't pour dollar bills down a
well. <BR><BR>Remember that this was before the rules were
rewritten for today's tourist railroads. A steam locomotive had to
have the flues removed so you could inspect the inside of the boiler every
four years unless you could document 12 months in the first four years when it
did not run, they you could get an automatic fifth year. That
means every steam locomotive until sometime around 2000 needed new flues every
4 years. Did any of those T-1s ever get a second set of
flues? I think they were all out of service by 1952 which suggests
to me the flues ran out in 1950 and the ICC gave them two one year extensions
and then they were all scrapped. <BR><BR>The J-1s were a
little more reliable … I gather they were retubed about 1948, and then around
1952 and that would take some up to the end of 1956 out in Columbus.<BR><BR>On
May 15, 2014, at 12:13 PM, Dwight Long wrote:<BR><BR>> <BR>>
Fred<BR>> <BR>> While I agree with most of what you say (the only part
being the 100 mile rule, which with modern steam power was quite obsolete—a
modern steam loco could run a thousand miles before needing that sort of
attention), we were discussing the PRR, not railroads in general. In the
PRR’s case one had to take internal railroad politics into account. They
had more effect on the timing of conversion to diesel (which was inevitable)
than anything else, including then current legislation. As soon as
Martin Clement and John Deasy were deposed, and James Symes became the power
on the PRR (even though Walter Franklin was actually the President for a
while), the conversion proceeded as quickly as the PRR could obtain
diesels—and from any builder! Had that transition to power in
Philadelphia taken place even five years earlier, there would have been no T1s
or Q2s and the conversion would have been more orderly, less pell-mell, and
ultimately less costly for the so-called Standard Railroad of the World.
<BR>> <BR>> And now someone wants to build a T1 from
scratch???? Just goes to prove the saying—not sure if was from
Jack White or George Hilton—that the amount of rail enthusiast interest in a
particular railway or railway part is inversely proportional to its economic
usefulness.<BR>> <BR>> Dwight<BR>> <BR>> From: Fred Schneider
<BR>> Sent: Thursday, 15 May, 2014 09:01<BR>> To: Western PA Trolley
discussion <BR>> Subject: Re: [PRCo] UMW blamed for diesels<BR>>
<BR>> I think we have to look at everything ….<BR>> <BR>>
1. Smoke control laws.<BR>> <BR>> 2. UMW strikes
making it hard to get coal.<BR>> <BR>> 3. Economics of
running steam … we can lay off 4 out of every 5 workers and well a lot of
ground we had used for shop buildings. Might even be able to sell some
shop buildings to other people for factories but that isn't too
likely.<BR>> <BR>> 4. No need for water in the deserts of
the American west. <BR>> <BR>> 5. Locomotive
availability … that diesel will run for thousands of miles before it needs any
servicing. Fueling can be done from a truck driven up to the
railroad … we don't need water columns, tanks, coal tipples. And
the steam engine will run about 100 miles between service stops and it needs a
lot of spare engines along the way because it likes to self destruct.
<BR>> <BR>> An example of the self destruct concept…. When
the PRR ran steam from Philadelphia to Harrisburg, there was a K4s stationed
in Lancaster as a protect engine. In the evening it sat in the
station facing west because most trains ran west in the evening.
In the morning in faced east. Always with a crew on
it. John Bowman told the story of standing in the cab of that K4
one day talking when he was told to jump off NOW. The signals had
changed to clear on the pocket track. They were going to
work. In January 1938, when the wires were energized to
Harrisburg, the protect engine was no longer needed. <BR>> <BR>>
The steam engine may have been pretty to the railfan … dynamic … great to
watch. But we have to think how many billions of dollars were
saved by scrapping them ……….. and how much cleaner the sky is over Pittsburgh,
Pitcairn, Glenwood, Rook, McKees Rocks and other places. <BR>>
<BR>> I've been sending these guys some interesting articles on Pittsburgh
Railways. I have ignored the smoke control stories but they are
there too. And there was an occasional picture of downtown on days
when you couldn't see the top of the Gulf Building from the
street. <BR>> <BR>> <BR>> On May 15, 2014, at 8:21 AM,
John Swindler wrote:<BR>> <BR>>> <BR>>> <BR>>> Easier to
blame another industry/organization than to look at the economics of railroad
operation. Some of David Morgan's writing talk about the
reduction/elimination of labor costs associated with conversion to diesel -
despite the high initial capital costs for diesel operation.
<BR>>> <BR>>> <BR>>> <BR>>> <BR>>>
<BR>>>> From: <A
href="mailto:fwschneider@comcast.net">fwschneider@comcast.net</A><BR>>>>
Date: Fri, 2 May 2014 14:33:45 -0400<BR>>>> To: <A
href="mailto:pittsburgh-railways@mailman.dementix.org">pittsburgh-railways@mailman.dementix.org</A><BR>>>>
Subject: [PRCo] UMW blamed for diesels<BR>>>> <BR>>>> Writer
forgets that the PRR announced several days earlier that it would cooperate
with smoke control. Blame cannot be totally based on either smoke
control, economics or John L. Lewis and his boys. <BR>>>>
<BR>>>> <A
href="http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=FisbAAAAIBAJ&sjid=6kwEAAAAIBAJ&pg=3025%2C2594239">http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=FisbAAAAIBAJ&sjid=6kwEAAAAIBAJ&pg=3025%2C2594239</A><BR>>>>
<BR>>>> <BR>>>> <BR>>>>
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href="https://mailman.dementix.org/mailman/listinfo/pittsburgh-railways">https://mailman.dementix.org/mailman/listinfo/pittsburgh-railways</A><BR>>>
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