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<DIV><FONT size=4>Ed</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4>Is there any information extant that would bear on the
arrangements for the four non-AVSR cars—the ones that went to M-WP? Were
they part of the same arrangement or were they separately financed directly by
M-WP? Interestingly the timing, assuming it was the same 15 years as the
AVSR cars, dovetailed with the takeover of the M-WP rail properties by City
Lines of West Virginia.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4>And before someone perhaps newer to the M-WP story gets all
excited about “City Lines of West Virginia,” I hasten to add that this
property had nothing to do with National City Lines, to which it was not related
at all. Conspiracy theorists need not apply.</FONT></DIV>
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<DIV><FONT size=4>Dwight</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4></FONT> </DIV>
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<DIV style="font-color: black"><B>From:</B> <A title=trams2@comcast.net
href="mailto:trams2@comcast.net">Edward H. Lybarger</A> </DIV>
<DIV><B>Sent:</B> Friday, 23 May, 2014 08:21</DIV>
<DIV><B>To:</B> <A title=pittsburgh-railways@mailman.dementix.org
href="mailto:pittsburgh-railways@mailman.dementix.org">'Western PA Trolley
discussion'</A> </DIV>
<DIV><B>Subject:</B> Re: [PRCo] Reading - Pgh. Press - March 1 thru
9.</DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV>
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<DIV
style='FONT-SIZE: small; TEXT-DECORATION: none; FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri"; FONT-WEIGHT: normal; COLOR: #000000; FONT-STYLE: normal; DISPLAY: inline'>West
Penn Securities Department, Inc. paid cash for the cars, I believe.<BR>They took
over the order from the parent company, West Penn Electric, who<BR>had ordered
them. WPSD owned a bunch of real estate that the empire used.<BR><BR>There
was another company, Coke Region Supply Company, that was involved in<BR>the
1921 cars. I don't have enough information to explain it yet, but
it<BR>was interesting to encounter the proposition in the corporate
minutes. It<BR>involved an equipment trust, and one of the certificates
was archived.<BR><BR>-----Original Message-----<BR>From:
pittsburgh-railways-bounces@mailman.dementix.org<BR>[mailto:pittsburgh-railways-bounces@mailman.dementix.org]
On Behalf Of<BR>Dwight Long<BR>Sent: Friday, May 23, 2014 12:31 AM<BR>To:
Western PA Trolley discussion<BR>Subject: Re: [PRCo] Reading - Pgh. Press -
March 1 thru 9.<BR><BR><BR>Fred<BR><BR>Who was "they?" <BR><BR>It sounds
as if "West Penn Securities Corporation" was a DIY equipment
trust<BR>certificate provider. CCC held the paper on quite a few of their
last<BR>production cars and wound up in several cases taking them back for
non<BR>payment. I'm sure they were quite happy not to have to do this with
the WP<BR>cars.<BR><BR>Dwight<BR><BR>From: Fred Schneider <BR>Sent: Thursday, 22
May, 2014 21:23<BR>To: Western PA Trolley discussion <BR>Subject: Re: [PRCo]
Reading - Pgh. Press - March 1 thru 9.<BR>Well, we know the reason for the
demise of the Allegheny Valley St. Ry.,<BR>with its seven-year-old cars was
repaving and widening route 28 up the<BR>valley. I think it is also
reasonably well known that, since the Allegheny<BR>Valley Street Railway did not
have a dividend stream from the power company<BR>(Allegheny Power) like the Coke
Region did, management had to protect its<BR>investment in the new cars in
another way. They would not risk having the<BR>railway buy them and
then having the railway go broke. So they (cars<BR>831-842) were put
into the ownership of West Penn Securities Corporation<BR>until they were paid
off and then they were sold to the West Penn Railways<BR>for a nominal
amount. I never ceased to be amazed that, unlike the<BR>management
of todays politically affiliated transit authorities, West Penn's<BR>management
(and most other private company managers) were anything but<BR>mentally
challenged. <BR><BR>I think there was also a bridge project that killed
one of the two other up<BR>river (Leechburg-Apollo or Kittanning-Ford City)
lines but I am not sure.<BR>Remember that they both lasted, unmodernized with
30+ year old Stephenson<BR>cars until about 1936. One of those was
very heavily damaged in the '36<BR>flood. <BR><BR>The only other one
was Oakdale - McDonald. How do you justify keeping<BR>something in
the middle of no where, unconnected with anything, running<BR>beyond 1920 other
than we have not paid it off yet??? <BR><BR>Wheeling . that we know was a
case of the bonds came due.<BR><BR><BR><BR>On May 21, 2014, at 4:48 PM, Dwight
Long wrote:<BR><BR>> <BR>> Fred<BR>> <BR>> I believe that during the
1946 strike the Washington line operated only<BR>between Washington and
Canonsburg. I don't know what the status of<BR>Charleroi was, but if it is
true that WP supplied power to non-Allegheny<BR>County subs, they could have run
between Elco loop in Roscoe and Riverview<BR>loop, or between Charleroi and
Roscoe, or between Charleroi and Riverview.<BR>The Donora line could have run
between Riverview and Donora. But I don't<BR>know if they did. Some
research into the archives at Arden would no doubt<BR>disclose the
answer.<BR>> <BR>> Did paving projects also do in the outlying small
operations? (Leave<BR>Wheeling Traction and M-WP out of this for the
moment). I'm sure WP looked<BR>at the net present value of the estimated
income streams if rail operations<BR>were continued, and compared this with the
capital outlay required for the<BR>repaving. (obviously there were other
issues to consider, but that is a<BR>simplistic way of looking at it).
They MIGHT have put up the bucks for<BR>Crawford Avenue with consideration of
all the factors. Or they might not<BR>have. They could have
continued to operate south of Connellsville without<BR>Crawford Avenue, and that
might have used enough power for their purposes in<BR>load balancing. I
don't know. Certainly the fact that the issue never<BR>arose relegates all
this to the area of supposition---------------------<BR>> <BR>>
Dwight<BR>> ----- Original Message ----- <BR>> From: Fred
Schneider <BR>> To: Western PA Trolley discussion <BR>> Sent:
Wednesday, May 21, 2014 1:18 PM<BR>> Subject: Re: [PRCo] Reading - Pgh.
Press - March 1 thru 9.<BR>> <BR>> <BR>> I'll agree that there
was no residential base load as we know it today .<BR>nothing but 25 or 40 watt
light bulbs. We ironed or clothes by heating the<BR>iron on the
kitchen stove. Furnaces were coal and often ductless . just
a<BR>whole in the floor over the furnace all the way to the second floor so
there<BR>was no fan load. Refrigerator? Well, GE began making
them in 1930 and<BR>before that we used ice boxes although from the teens onward
the commercial<BR>ice plants were often electrically powered instead of steam
powered. <BR>> <BR>> What was the industrial base
load? What did mining use? What did the<BR>glass works
and foundries and steel mills use? What about the local
ice<BR>plants to make block ice for your ice boxes . they needed to run some
pretty<BR>heavy ammonia compressors. And West Penn Power wasn't simply the
railways'<BR>territory, it included Armstrong County, Washington County, some of
the<BR>fringes of Allegheny County, Greene County<BR>> <BR>> How
fragile the railways were was impressed on me, Dwight, by the removal<BR>of the
McKeesport city operations in the 1930s. That division of
the<BR>company hauled more people any way you measured it than any other part
of<BR>the system . more overall, more per route mile, more per man hour but
as<BR>soon as the city of McKeesport said we are repaving the main drag
down<BR>toward your carbarn and you are going to pay your share, West Penn
abandoned<BR>service. As an aside, part of their base load included
some Pittsburgh<BR>Railways substations . Tylerdale, Canonsburg, Thompsonville,
Charleroi etc.<BR>Seems to me that in the 1946 Duquesne Light Strike and the
1936 flood, the<BR>interurbans and Donora and the Washington city lines
continued to run. <BR>> <BR>> Same thing happened when
the borough of Youngwood had a paving project in<BR>1939 . the back line had to
go.<BR>> <BR>> Those two incidents convinced me that if
Connellsville had not redone<BR>Crawford Ave in the 1920s and gotten that out of
the way, had such a project<BR>come up in the 1930s it would have wiped out the
whole system because you<BR>could not have gotten to the shops.
<BR>> <BR>> <BR>> <BR>> On May 21, 2014, at 11:43 AM, Dwight
Long wrote:<BR>> <BR>>> <BR>>> Ed<BR>>> <BR>>> Not
only would the write down have been deleterious to their stock<BR>values, it
would in a much more practical sense have removed their ability<BR>to run their
power plants at an efficient level. The railways provided the<BR>base load
needed for efficient operation of them. It was not until the boom<BR>times
(in electricity consumption, inter alia) after WW II that power demand<BR>in WP
territory became high enough to take up a sufficient amount of<BR>installed
capacity to make elimination of the rail demand an
attractive<BR>thing.<BR>>> <BR>>> Also, I doubt that the railways,
on a true net/net cash basis, lost money<BR>at least until the post war period.
(individual lines were hopeless losers<BR>and got axed early on.) Of
course an enterprise cannot sustain itself in<BR>the long run if it does not
make a profit that includes not only positive<BR>cash flow but also coverage of
depreciation, amortization, taxes and<BR>interest. So you are correct, the
handwriting was on the proverbial wall<BR>not long after the Great War, and I
believe WP management was fully aware of<BR>that. The way they executed
gradual rundown of the transit assets was,<BR>IMHO, rather clever.<BR>>>
<BR>>> Dwight<BR>>> <BR>>> From: Edward H. Lybarger
<BR>>> Sent: Tuesday, 20 May, 2014 14:38<BR>>> To: 'Western PA
Trolley discussion' <BR>>> Subject: Re: [PRCo] Reading - Pgh. Press -
March 1 thru 9.<BR>>> Peak year for coal and coke was 1916. Clairton
opened full time in 1918.<BR>>> Last year West Penn paid the bond interest
out of the fare box was 1920.<BR>It<BR>>> all fits very precisely.
The terminals were joint ventures with the<BR>power<BR>>> company, which
eased the burden a bit. The 830s were part of a $400,000<BR>>>
upgrade of AV Street Ry and were needed to convert to one-man
operation.<BR>>> <BR>>> They didn't exactly know when they finished
the system in 1914 what<BR>loomed<BR>>> on the horizon. And if they
had dumped the railway company as soon as it<BR>>> became unprofitable in
the fullest sense of the word, it would have<BR>killed<BR>>> the power
company...the organization simply couldn't have taken that big<BR>a<BR>>>
write-down and still been viable. But since Railways owned (in
1916)<BR>100%<BR>>> of Power, it wasn't an issue to subsidize one from the
other.<BR>>> <BR>>> Ed<BR>>> <BR>>> -----Original
Message-----<BR>>> From:
pittsburgh-railways-bounces@mailman.dementix.org<BR>>>
[mailto:pittsburgh-railways-bounces@mailman.dementix.org] On Behalf
Of<BR>Fred<BR>>> Schneider<BR>>> Sent: Tuesday, May 20, 2014 11:01
AM<BR>>> To: Western PA Trolley discussion<BR>>> Subject: Re: [PRCo]
Reading - Pgh. Press - March 1 thru 9.<BR>>> <BR>>> Yup.
I chuckled two about Mitchell making it one of the most modern<BR>>>
transportation companies in the country. Maybe up to the early
1920s<BR>until<BR>>> the public quit riding. <BR>>>
<BR>>> But we also know that the mines were already fading in 1910 when
West<BR>Penn<BR>>> built their last routes. If memory is
working, it was about 1910 that<BR>the<BR>>> Clairton by-product recovery
plant was built and that killed a lot of the<BR>>> beehive coke ovens
along the West Penn.<BR>>> <BR>>> The last investment was around
1927-1930 . the new terminals in<BR>>> Connellsville, Uniontown and
Greensburg and the attempt to get the cars<BR>off<BR>>> some of the
busiest downtown streets in Uniontown. The 800 series
cars<BR>for<BR>>> the Allegheny Valley were quasi-modern, meaning sealed
gear boxes and 300<BR>>> volt motors but the brake and control package was
anything but modern. <BR>>> <BR>>> <BR>>> On May
19, 2014, at 8:40 PM, Dwight Long wrote:<BR>>> <BR>>>>
<BR>>>> Fred<BR>>>> <BR>>>> I love the part about
Mitchell helping to make West Penn one of the most<BR>>> modern
transportation companies in the country!<BR>>>> <BR>>>> I
think Federal pre-emption of local ordnances came as a result of
lots<BR>of<BR>>> similar things to the McKeesport fiasco.<BR>>>>
<BR>>>> Dwight<BR>>>> ----- Original Message -----
<BR>>>> From: Fred Schneider <BR>>>> To: Western PA Trolley
discussion <BR>>>> Sent: Monday, May 19, 2014 8:07 PM<BR>>>>
Subject: [PRCo] Reading - Pgh. Press - March 1 thru 9.<BR>>>>
<BR>>>> <BR>>>> The Pittsburgh and West Virginia Terminal fire
.. look in March 22,<BR>1946.<BR>>> The fire happened over night Mar.
21-22.<BR>>>> <BR>>>> Philadelphia Company wins
delay<BR>>>> <BR>>>>
<BR>>><BR>http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=E1MbAAAAIBAJ&sjid=1kwEAAAAIBAJ&pg=3000%<BR>>>
2C15764<BR>>>> <BR>>>> No page forward to page two, same
edition. Bottom of column one. Look<BR>>> at that
picture at the bottom of the first column of<BR>>>> the clothing
department in Albert J. Mannsmann's department store in<BR>East<BR>>>
Liberty. Hard to believe a neighborhood department store when we
don't<BR>>> even have them downtown in our cities any
longer.<BR>>>> <BR>>>> The next link is two columns over to
the right . same page. I put this<BR>>> in for Ed
Lybarger. AFL and CIO are battling over who should
represent<BR>the<BR>>> employees at Champion Stores, the company store for
Pittsburgh<BR>Consolidation<BR>>> Coal Company. So when "I owe
my soul to the company store" and it is<BR>shut<BR>>> down and I have no
money, do I starve? Or do I stick my shot gun in<BR>>>
someone's face to get money to eat? <BR>>>> <BR>>>>
<BR>>><BR>http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=E1MbAAAAIBAJ&sjid=1kwEAAAAIBAJ&pg=3639%<BR>>>
2C25910<BR>>>> <BR>>>>
<BR>>><BR>http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=FlMbAAAAIBAJ&sjid=1kwEAAAAIBAJ&pg=2188%<BR>>>
2C938893<BR>>>> <BR>>>> It is hard to believe how primitive
aviation was back then. This is<BR>>> also for Ed but the rest
of you might get a kick out of "Moon Township<BR>>> Airport Due to Get
Funds." <BR>>>> <BR>>>>
<BR>>><BR>http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=E1MbAAAAIBAJ&sjid=1kwEAAAAIBAJ&pg=3707%<BR>>>
2C83272<BR>>>> <BR>>>> Personnel action at Pittsburgh
Railways<BR>>>> <BR>>>>
<BR>>><BR>http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=E1MbAAAAIBAJ&sjid=1kwEAAAAIBAJ&pg=3707%<BR>>>
2C8327<BR>>>> <BR>>>> We won't give up harassing the power
company<BR>>>> <BR>>>>
<BR>>><BR>http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=FFMbAAAAIBAJ&sjid=1kwEAAAAIBAJ&pg=1579%<BR>>>
2C291182<BR>>>> <BR>>>> The Pittsburgh, Shawmut and Northern
Railway was sold in March for 1.5<BR>>> million dollars.
Doesn't say so here but the last trains ran about 27<BR>days<BR>>>
later.<BR>>>> <BR>>>>
<BR>>><BR>http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=FVMbAAAAIBAJ&sjid=1kwEAAAAIBAJ&pg=3055%<BR>>>
2C650711<BR>>>> <BR>>>>
<BR>>><BR>http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=FlMbAAAAIBAJ&sjid=1kwEAAAAIBAJ&pg=2557%<BR>>>
2C905732<BR>>>> <BR>>>>
<BR>>><BR>http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=GVMbAAAAIBAJ&sjid=1kwEAAAAIBAJ&pg=1940%<BR>>>
2C2206355<BR>>>> <BR>>>> Pittsburgh Railways unhappy that
Montour Bus Company wants to serve<BR>>> Spring Hill<BR>>>>
<BR>>>>
<BR>>><BR>http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=FlMbAAAAIBAJ&sjid=1kwEAAAAIBAJ&pg=2136%<BR>>>
2C940320<BR>>>> <BR>>>> This link is about eight hurt on a
Greensburg-Blairsville bus when an<BR>oil<BR>>> truck slid into it on the
Lincoln Highway west of Latrobe. But the<BR>story<BR>>> to
it's right is a real winner too.<BR>>>> <BR>>>>
<BR>>><BR>http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=FlMbAAAAIBAJ&sjid=1kwEAAAAIBAJ&pg=5161%<BR>>>
2C1032106<BR>>>> <BR>>>> Baldwin Locomotive Company shut down
temporarily because they could not<BR>>> get steel. There were
peripheral stories that I did not send about coal<BR>>> strikes and a lack
of gas that also affected steel mills. The
second<BR>link<BR>>> comes a few days later when the United Mine Workers
and John L. Lewis<BR>lost<BR>>> in the Supreme Court for breaching a
contract with the government. The<BR>>> entire page of
the paper in the third link gives some idea about what was<BR>>> going on
in the coal fields in 1947.<BR>>>> <BR>>>>
<BR>>><BR>http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=FlMbAAAAIBAJ&sjid=1kwEAAAAIBAJ&pg=1546%<BR>>>
2C1062045<BR>>>> <BR>>>>
<BR>>><BR>http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=GFMbAAAAIBAJ&sjid=1kwEAAAAIBAJ&pg=5426%<BR>>>
2C1466133<BR>>>> <BR>>>>
<BR>>><BR>http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=GVMbAAAAIBAJ&sjid=1kwEAAAAIBAJ&pg=1945%<BR>>>
2C2013973<BR>>>> <BR>>>> This guy must have loved his
work. H. L. Mitchell of West Penn<BR>achieves<BR>>> 45 years
in harness.<BR>>>> <BR>>>>
<BR>>><BR>http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=FlMbAAAAIBAJ&sjid=1kwEAAAAIBAJ&pg=5121%<BR>>>
2C1062595<BR>>>> <BR>>>> Philadelphia Company's hearing is
recessed<BR>>>> <BR>>>>
<BR>>><BR>http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=F1MbAAAAIBAJ&sjid=1kwEAAAAIBAJ&pg=5770%<BR>>>
2C1287583<BR>>>> <BR>>>> Same old - same old. I
love this. They had clean coal back in 1947<BR>>> except that
they were unable to find it. Coal industry accused of<BR>>>
attempting to sabotage Pittsburgh's smoke control program. I find
the<BR>>> whole thing rather amusing. This is the only item I have
posted so far<BR>but<BR>>> the papers have been filled with
it. One of the better items prior to<BR>this<BR>>> was an
editorial cartoon showing Harrisburg aiming a canon
at<BR>Pittsburgh's<BR>>> attempts to clean up the city because the coal
companies were buying the<BR>>> legislators.<BR>>>>
<BR>>>>
<BR>>><BR>http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=F1MbAAAAIBAJ&sjid=1kwEAAAAIBAJ&pg=6205%<BR>>>
2C1324122 <BR>>>> <BR>>>> Sounds like this chap employed
the law firm of Dewey, Cheetum and Howe<BR>to<BR>>> sue Pittsburgh
Railways. <BR>>>> <BR>>>>
<BR>>><BR>http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=GFMbAAAAIBAJ&sjid=1kwEAAAAIBAJ&pg=2250%<BR>>>
2C1494659<BR>>>> <BR>>>> Fantastic article about all the rules
McKeesport inflicted on the B&O.<BR>>> I can only wonder when the ICC
or the FRA told the city to go pound sand.<BR>>> I know of similar cases
where cities were told that they had no control<BR>over<BR>>>
railroads.<BR>>>> <BR>>>>
<BR>>><BR>http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=G1MbAAAAIBAJ&sjid=1kwEAAAAIBAJ&pg=4302%<BR>>>
2C2502871<BR>>>> <BR>>>> <BR>>>> <BR>>>>
<BR>>>> <BR>>>>
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