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<DIV><FONT face="Century Gothic"></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Century Gothic">The schedule attached was only the Drake
schedule. If you sent another, dementix ate it. What is needed is
the Rt. 37 schedule. The only ones I have are 1963 or newer and they show
the service pattern (15 minute off peak headway--provided by the interurbans D
and L) that was established, according to all evidence produced to date, in late
1951, when the W and C interurbans were changed to run 15 minutes apart rather
than together and the restrictions against local hauling between the Triangle
and Castle Shannon were modified. I do have interurban schedules for both
W and C which show the post staggered schedule restrictions, which applied only
to outbound trips in the evening rush and only to Frederick Street.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Century Gothic"></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Century Gothic">This past weekend I had occasion to speak
personally with Art Ellis at the Hoosier Traction Meet. I asked about the
changeover to staggered interurban schedules. His memory was quite clear
on this and he was emphatic that the whole thing was done to eliminate Rt 37
trips in the non-rush hours. This is in complete conformity with my
recollection and also with what John Baxter related in ER #20. Unless you
can produce an actual schedule for Rt. 37 for late 1951 or early 1952
(pre-interurban abandonment) that shows otherwise, I will continue to go with my
memory and the statements of PRC employees who were there and employees at the
time. Anything else is just speculation.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Century Gothic"></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Century Gothic">Art also told me something I did not
know. The interurban 1700s were delivered WITHOUT FARE BOXES. Fare
boxes had to be installed in them in late 1951 in order to permit them to be
used to provide local service between Castle Shannon and the Triangle. I
told Art that I recalled riding the interurbans and that the operator used a
supplied "plug" to block access to the farebox when operating beyond Castle
Shannon, and he confirmed this as well. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Century Gothic"></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Century Gothic">As to the installation of the loop at Simmons,
I was simply quoting from published reports contemporaneous to the
discontinuance of Route C. I agree that what you postulate
is POSSIBLE, however, I do not believe it is PROBABLE that it happened that
way. The normally-thrifty PRC would not have wanted to spend the money for
a custom made set of crossing frogs (then, as now, very expensive) for something
that was going to exist for only a few days. Curving the rails for the
loop is another matter; the loop was expected to, and did, last for many
years. There would have been no "grading" involved as you suggest.
The outbound Route C main track would have been jacked up and blocked slightly
higher than the height of the rail and ties, and the latter slid under the
resulting "miniature overpass." Then when the C service had ended, the
outbound main could be either cut (by the "gas wrench") or the appropriate
sections of rail unbolted and removed, leaving the newly-installed loop
connection to the inbound main operable. This is a relatively simple and
inexpensive procedure compared to purchasing or fabricating and installing
custom track crossing frogs! Note that after all the cleanup of unneeded
trackage at this site had occurred, there was still a short length of the SB C
track left at Simmons as a cripple track. AFAIK it went almost to the
point where the inbound loop track crossed the original SB main.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Century Gothic"></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Century Gothic">All that said, I will be at Arden this coming
Friday, spending a volunteer day working in the archives. I will pester Ed
to see if the archives contain: 1) a Rt. 37 schedule from the
relevant time period; and 2) any additional facts concerning the
construction and cut-in of the Simmons loop. Should they substantiate your
theories I will be the first to salute you!</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Century Gothic"></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Century Gothic">As to posting my photos of the last days of Rt.
38, I will not post them on this site because of what Dementix does with or to
them. However, once I have a chance to pull them from file and scan them,
I will be glad to send a few to you and anyone else who might be interested in
receiving them directly, in the body of the email. This may be a while, as
I think right now they are in Ed R's possession as candidates for the next PRC
book.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Century Gothic"></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Century Gothic">Dwight</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT: 10pt arial; BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=PRCoPCC@p-r-co.com href="mailto:PRCoPCC@p-r-co.com">Holland, James
B.</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
title=pittsburgh-railways@mailman.dementix.org
href="mailto:pittsburgh-railways@mailman.dementix.org">1711_PRCo_WP_JTC</A>
</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Friday, September 05, 2014 6:10
AM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [PRCo] PRC Interurban
Service early 1950s</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>>> On 2014.09.04-Thur 11.12-AM, Jim Holland
wrote:<BR>>><BR>>> Hi, Chris!<BR>>><BR>>> I believe we
discussed this some time back but I can not find details <BR>>> -- other
computer crashed and information may be on it.<BR>>><BR>>>
Schedules on the 3-Interurbans the day after Washington service ended
<BR>>> 30-Aug-1953 reveal 10-minute headway through Overbrook
mid-day. <BR>>> Library and Drake cars had 20-min-headway mid-day;
Shannon cars Only <BR>>> Operated rush hours. (Those schedules are
attached making it a <BR>>> double-post for the lisp -- Please See
PSs!)<BR>>><BR>>>
Schedule_35-36-37_19530830_1of2.jpg<BR>>><BR>>>
Schedule_35-36-37_19530830_2of2.jpg<BR>>><BR>>> Thus it stands to
reason when the Char and Wash Interurbans ceased <BR>>> operations in
tandem and operated 15-min-apart through Overbrook <BR>>> (late 1950s,
early 1951-forward) 15-min between Only Char and Wash <BR>>> cars was
insufficient to meet demand. As I Remember service through <BR>>>
Overbrook after tandem Interurban operations ceased was every 7-8-min
<BR>>> each direction "Mid-Day, 8-cars an hour." Thus Shannon and
West <BR>>> Library cars (37/L) split the headway between the Char and
Wash <BR>>> Interurbans. (Were schedules cut to the
"Half-Minute?" We still had <BR>>> those in the 1970s on San Fran
Crisco Muni!)<BR>>><BR>>> Using "(37/L)" for Shannon//WLibrary
cars, a SB schedule from Pgh <BR>>> (approx late 1950 into early-1953)
might look something like this -- <BR>>> ALL cars running local--making
all stops:<BR>>><BR>>> 00--Char<BR>>> 07--(37/L)<BR>>>
15--Wash<BR>>> 22--(37/L)<BR>>> 30--Char<BR>>>
37--(37/L)<BR>>> 45--Wash<BR>>> 52--(37/L) <BR>><BR>> On Thu
Sep 4 12:45:39 EDT 2014, Dwight Long dwightlong at verizon.net <BR>>
wrote<BR>><BR>> Here is the story of Simmons Loop and its opening to
service. The <BR>> loop WAS constructed prior to the end of service
on Rt. C early Sunday <BR>> morning 28 June 1953. It was built such
that the curve out of the <BR>> loop leading to the northbound main line
was laid UNDER the southbound <BR>> main track. Just a few hours were
needed later that Sunday for crews <BR>> to cut the southbound main and put
the loop into use.<BR><BR><BR><BR>Hi, Dwight!<BR><BR>SIX_Attachments
Included.<BR><BR>Simmons loop was built at grade with a grade crossing
(4-crossing frogs) <BR>of the curve and SB main. Whether or not the
northbound main had a <BR>trail switch is not known but is suspected.
This allows uninterrupted <BR>operation (except very minor delays of
installation); the unneeded <BR>hardware can be removed any time after
Charleroi ceases operations----NO <BR>rush! About a decade ago a photo
was posted here showing the crossing <BR>-- the photographer was south looking
north. I believe Mark in Florida <BR>posted the photo. I have
searched the lisp photo files:<BR><A
href="http://lists.dementix.org/files/pittsburgh-railways/">http://lists.dementix.org/files/pittsburgh-railways/</A><BR>...using:
"Char; prw; loop; track; sim" each of them separately to see <BR>if I could
find the photo which I could not. Maybe others shall be more
<BR>successful.<BR><BR>Ed may have track diagrams at PTM which reveal this
construction. I do <BR>not understand construction underneath both SB
and NB main tracks -- <BR>this would be far more work than necessary and
result in bending rail <BR>into a grade. Railways generally had old
hardware on hand (removed from <BR>other locations but still usable) for such
purposes. Removal of crossing <BR>(along with trail point//mate) allow
installation of larger curved <BR>section on new loop without excess
joints.<BR><BR><BR><BR>> As to the question of when Rt. 37 became rush hour
only, the <BR>> reference I was seeking is in ERA Electric Railroads
No. 20, published <BR>> in July 1952, which was authored by John
Baxter. He states: "A local <BR>> service sharing the trackage
out of Pittsburgh with the interurbans <BR>> began operation to Fair Haven
(Frederick Street) in 1916, extended <BR>> later to Shannon, then to
Library in 1924. Restrictions in riding <BR>> interurbans locally in
this area became effective from time to time <BR>> from 1916 to the fall of
1951 when Route 37-Shannon service was <BR>> eliminated during the off peak
hours." After that rush hour <BR>> interurbans carried a small sign
in the front window stating something <BR>> like "first stop Frederick
Street" (I don't recall the exact <BR>> wording). Operators were
supposed to use the roll signs for the route <BR>> WITHOUT the Shannon
prefix, i.e. "Charleroi" instead of <BR>> "Shannon-Charleroi," but human
nature being what it is I have no idea <BR>> how often this nicety was
observed. More reliance, I assume, was <BR>> placed upon the normals'
knowing the drill and staying off the <BR>> interurbans in rush hours if
they were destined to points short of <BR>> Frederick
Street.<BR><BR><BR><BR>Here is a portion of what Chris wrote in response to my
question quoted <BR>above. He indicates the collection of schedules
ceases with 1949. His <BR>information is from March-1953 Schedules which
confirm what I wrote::: <BR>Castle Shannon to downtown and return to
Castle Shannon was every <BR>7-8+minutes with Char and Wash Interurbans 15-min
apart and "Local" <BR>service (37/L) centered between C &
W!:::<BR><BR> On 2014-09-04 14:36,
CWalker wrote:<BR><BR> March, 1953
-- Art Ellis saved a set of company schedules
before<BR> the system began to be
pared down with the June operator
"pick."<BR><BR> In 1953, they were
operating a full compliment of Shannon
cars<BR> intermingled with the W and
C runs -- so, as you point out,<BR>
mid-day service consisted of a car every 7 -- 8 minutes
between<BR> Shannon and Downtown.
That may have been the case from 1951
on;<BR> if I had to guess, I would
say so. The weekend locals were<BR>
largely extended to Library as before. On Saturdays, the
Library<BR> trips operated a 30
minute headway most of the day, and
were<BR> interlined with 37 trips.
In other words, the car ran into
town<BR> as Route L and left the
city as Route 37. This provided a
15<BR> minute local service between
Castle Shannon and the city in<BR>
addition to the 15 minute interurbans. Sundays, the Library
cars<BR> ran every 15 minutes, again
providing a combined 7 -- 8
minute<BR> over the shared
trackage.<BR><BR> The August 30
timetable shows the extent of the service
after<BR> the interurbans were cut.
To some extent, scheduling was<BR>
simplified, especially for the Library cars which previously
had<BR> to be scheduled out of West
Library Loop in "time windows"
to<BR> avoid fouling up the signals
for the Charleroi runs (or
getting<BR> stuck in the loop and
behind schedule).<BR><BR> There's
more, I'm sure -- I'll do a little more looking once
I<BR> get home. Schedules tell a lot
about the operation, and are a<BR>
great resource for understanding
things!<BR><BR> Chris<BR><BR>I would
suspect Ed Lybarger already knows this or knows of Chris <BR>Walker's work; he
may be able to confirm and enlarge upon the topic. <BR>The above does
not completely resolve the matter as this is data for <BR>1953, but it does
confirm what I mentioned for this time period with <BR>logic strongly
suggesting 8-cars an hour each way through Overbrook in <BR>1951 instead of
just 4-cars. With 6-cars each direction in Sept-1953, <BR>an increase of
50% over alleged 4-cars in 1951, does not seem logical. <BR>Anything IS
possible, but that does not seem probable. Ridership was <BR>dropping by
1953 as post-war economy was improving with returning vets <BR>finding enough
money to buy that Family car!<BR><BR>The 1952 "Headlights" special on the PRCo
Interurban system is widely <BR>owned and respected by many of us. It is
a Very Good Source of <BR>information but not infallible as has been
discovered here over the last <BR>decade -- it is good information until
original PRCo documents are <BR>discovered to confirm it or deny
it.<BR><BR><BR><BR>> The same reference confirms that the diversionary
route for the <BR>> interurbans was indeed Rt. 38 on West Liberty Avenue
and not through <BR>> Beechview on Rt. 42 as I had
remembered.<BR><BR><BR><BR>A portion of a 1961-schedule attached reveals a
couple Drake trips that <BR>returned to the Barn over the 38-Mt.Lebanon.
I was surprized to see <BR>that; it was rarely listed in the schedules.
Library and Shannon cars <BR>also did this on a very regular basis but they
are not so listed. It <BR>was more than a half-dozen cars.<BR><BR>Harold
Geissenheimer was a lisp member -- he gave details of County Fair <BR>Service
at South Park post WW2 where ALL SB interurbans used the <BR>38-Mt.Lebanon to
Castle Shannon, then regular route. As Fair service <BR>was about every
minute, 38A service was busted. ALL NB Interurban <BR>service used
Overbrook. Signal masts north of Mesta were covered; all <BR>operated on
sight with many route inspectors at key points. A DE <BR>shuttle using
the SB track between Oak and Castle Shannon provided <BR>'simulated' OB // SB
traffic. A series of attached photos reveal this.<BR><BR>WE_LOOK_Forward
to seeing some of your 38-Mt.Lebanon photos just before
<BR>"abandonment!" You are getting some nice photos here!<BR><BR>--
<BR>Jim<BR><BR>Schedule_36-Weekday_19610430_2of2_0600_020.jpg<BR><BR>3801_35+OB_DawnJct_19470901_CJD_018.jpg
-- Beautiful photo -- SLCCo <BR>Charleroi Interurban OB on
38-Mt.Lebanon<BR><BR>4913_35+OB_DawnRampWLibertyAve_19470901_CJD_021.jpg<BR><BR>3711_36+OB_DawnRampWLibertyAve_19470901_CJD_023.jpg<BR><BR>3711_36+IB_4322_37+OB_Oak_19470901_CJD_021.jpg<BR><BR>3801_SouthParkServiceDescription_19470901_CJD_025.jpg<BR><BR>*<BR><BR>*<BR><BR><BR><BR>--------------
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