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<DIV><FONT face="Century Gothic"></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Century Gothic">From the beginning I have allowed that what you
postulate COULD have happened. Indeed it might have. But it is NOT
what was reported in contemporary accounts and it is NOT the most logical way
for PRC to have brought Simmons on line. As I stated before, if you can
show proof that in spite of that, it WAS in fact what was done, I will be the
first to salute you. In the meantime, I will stick with logic and the
reports from the era.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Century Gothic"></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Century Gothic">This is just an exercise to determine some very
arcane, and in all fairness, rather peripheral, facts. I cannot see the
need for you, or anyone else, to get so worked up over it. I have no
intention of obsessing over it, but I will see what can be found without unduly
detracting from other more important work, on both this subject and the
post-1951 Rt. 37 schedules, in the archives on Friday, and will report in due
course.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Century Gothic"></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Century Gothic">Dwight</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT: 10pt arial; BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=PRCoPCC@p-r-co.com href="mailto:PRCoPCC@p-r-co.com">Holland, James
B.</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
title=pittsburgh-railways@mailman.dementix.org
href="mailto:pittsburgh-railways@mailman.dementix.org">1711_PRCo_WP_JTC</A>
</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Wednesday, September 10, 2014 10:22
PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [PRCo] Simmons Loop,
June-July-1953</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>I MOST DEFINITELY KNOW:::::::<BR><BR>1711_Last REVENUE PRCo PCC
Interurban Washington To Pittsburgh --<BR>1711_Last REVENUE PRCo PCC
Interurban to carry passengers from <BR>Washington to Pgh!<BR><BR>"Dr. Ed
Lybarger Himself" wrote here or Said In Person To Me that there <BR>was other
equipment in Washington that needed to return to Pittsburgh <BR>AFTER 1711
made the last official run with passengers. Car Barns may <BR>have closed but
a skeleton crew is necessary because of those cars at <BR>Washington that Ed
said needed moved to Pgh AND in case there were <BR>problems on any of the
last runs. Did Donora close before Charleroi? <BR>If not, those DE
cars needed moved After the Line
Closed.<BR><BR>********************************************************<BR><BR>NOTHING
special needs to be fabricated. The ONLY thing that is needed <BR>is a
crossing across track with the Same Track Center and you have a <BR>Ready Made
Crossing to fit Simmons Loop. A double track in street or on <BR>prw
with the same track center as at Simmons and a turn on that which
<BR>corresponds to the turn needed for Simmons -- spares of such removed
<BR>track would be available, as was Sewickly loop available for Drake.
<BR>There would be MANY of these. YES! Pgh had a variety of track
centers <BR>but there are MANY places that have identical track centers.
What is so <BR>difficult to understand about this? Is a Drawing
Necessary? I am not <BR>doing one. I did not compare Drake Loop
and Simmons -- Those are your <BR>words, Not Mine -- Please do NOT misquote me
-- ALL I said is that <BR>reclaimed track from 23 was used for the Drake
loop. I said that to <BR>underscore that a reclaimed crossing and track
points were used at <BR>Simmons and then removed and replaced with regular
rail when access <BR>south was not needed any
more.<BR><BR>********************************************************<BR><BR><BR>Again,
for the UMPTEENTH time -- I have seen the picture of the crossing <BR>in the
SB and Simmons loop Track AND I am 90% positive it was posted <BR>here on the
list a decade ago -- but finding it is elusive. it IS more <BR>fuzzy
than the photo in the book, maybe because of the
scan.<BR><BR><BR>********************************************************<BR><BR>YES!
-- I DID think that it is possible to build the loop except for <BR>the final
turn across the tracks -- LONG before you mentioned it. But I <BR>did
not want to complicate what people could not already understand. <BR>But
Remember this::: The Last run comes through in the Very Wee hours <BR>of
the morning and Library had OWL service. The likelihood of finishing
<BR>the loop at this hour of the night ON Overtime and disturbing neighbors,
<BR>not many for sure, but still a disturbance, is unlikely. Where are
the <BR>X-Overs -- Mesta was the closest NB and there was nothing SB to my
<BR>knowledge until Lanks the beginning of single track. Portable
X-Overs? <BR>That works nicely over pavement but not on PRW -- much
extra support is <BR>needed -- they are free floating. Not impossible
but another distinct <BR>challenge and possible problems with so many regular
Library revenue <BR>cars. Cut X-Overs in at Grade? THAT is far more work
than making a <BR>complete loop AT Grade with an existing curve and track
center identical <BR>and ALL parts already available.<BR><BR>ALL that is
necessary is is to make 4-cuts in the SB rails, 2-cuts in <BR>each rail,
remove those 2-pieces of rail, SET the 4-crossing frogs in <BR>place, and
secure. Just SET in place and equipment could pass through.
<BR>YES IT COULD. A video is available from Richard, Keegan, of Hays,
KS, <BR>which MANY here have or have seen showing "Curved-Girder-Guard-Rail"
-- <BR>7"-9"-High -- replaced, daytime, weekday, during service, Martin
<BR>Villa-IB, IN the Street. The old rail was removed, the new rail SET
in <BR>place, and the service car operated through -- NO spikes. Crane
car <BR>shuttled to Castle Shannon and return -- THAT is also shown in the
video.<BR><BR>I saw the same identical thing when the point into the Dormont
wye-OB <BR>was replaced -- it was simply set in place and a car allowed to
pass <BR>thru into a sharp turn. This was a 1700-city car with the crazy
op with <BR>fiery-red hair. He hit the point hard "purposely" and the
car really <BR>heaved but the point stayed in place. I Was young but
knew that was <BR>dead wrong; he had a bad altitude (and he seemed to
disappear within a <BR>year or two.)<BR><BR>Regardless of you thinking that
the Interurbans would use the 42/38 it <BR>IS True, as you did discover, that
they used the 38-line. I TOLD THE <BR>TRUTH. I lived there and
experienced it. It is VERY strange to me that <BR>ALL others on this
lisP can write by memory and everybody fauns over it, <BR>yet my memory is NOT
allowed in spite of a history here providing very <BR>good information, at
first denied by ALL, but later confirmed. That has <BR>Most Definitely
Happened Not A Few Times.<BR><BR>Again, I TELL THE TRUTH for the UMPTEENTH
time -- I have seen the <BR>picture of the crossing in the SB and Simmons loop
Track AND I am <BR>positive it was posted here on the list a decade ago -- but
finding it <BR>is elusive. It IS more fuzzy than the photo in the book,
maybe because <BR>of the scan. Construction of the loop as I detail is
highly logical -- <BR>in all honesty, THE MOST logical and NOT Expensive using
reclaimed rail <BR>and special work as IS the custom.<BR><BR>It is uncertain
as to whether I shall visit Friday or not. My original <BR>plans were to
attend the West Penn MODEL meet at PTM on those days and <BR>to see someone in
another dept for whom I have some items to donate. I <BR>would stop to
see Ed in the archives as is my custom when visiting on
<BR>weekdays.<BR><BR>What changed my mind was the "possibility" of taking New
Operator <BR>Training the last weekend of September, thus the cancellation of
this <BR>weekend.<BR><BR>In all honesty, all this @!^%$# has killed my
enthusiasm. And after <BR>working 35+years as an Operator on San
Francisco Muniserable Railways <BR>(During which 80% of ALL surface tracks
were rebuilt while I was working <BR>on PCCs in the 1970s--so I am Highly
Informed on Track work) and dealing <BR>with all the @!^%$# there, it shall be
little different operating at <BR>PTM. The Dispatching on a couple
nights during Washington County Fair <BR>this year was abysmal. When the
dispatcher received a "Question" on the <BR>radio, his response was:::
"Ten-Four." He would make a Grrrrrrreat Muni <BR>candidate.<BR><BR>--
<BR>*Jim*<BR><BR>SF_MUNI_RECLAIMED_SPECIALWORK_INSTALLATION -- -- without
evening jogging <BR>memory I can think of 2-specific locations that used
reclaimed rail, <BR>crossings, and turnouts when single-end equipment became
the norm -- <BR>30th//Judah wye and 35th//Taraval wye. On the wye leg on
both 30th and <BR>35th, a 3-way special-work point and mate were used with
right and left <BR>turns as well as tangent straight through -- this is what
was available, <BR>this is what was used even though a straight thru tangent
was not <BR>needed. I bet you shall even deny that. Out-of-towners
always assume a <BR>line went straight thru, but never
did.<BR><BR><BR>> [PRCo] Simmons Loop,
June-July-1953<BR>><BR>> *Edward H. Lybarger* trams2 at comcast.net
<BR>> <<A
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[ author ]<BR>> <<A
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------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>>
Both interurban car houses were closed at the end of June 20's schedule.
I<BR>> always imagined that the loop cut-in was done exactly as Dwight
suggests.<BR>> To do otherwise would have been costly and cumbersome; PRC
didn't like those<BR>> kinds of things when avoidable. Having the
northbound track complete, only<BR>> now with a switch point so cars could
come out of the new loop, enabled the<BR>> return of anything south of
Library. And a couple crossovers would have<BR>> easily enabled
southbound movements when needed.<BR>><BR>> -----Original
Message-----<BR>> From:pittsburgh-railways-bounces at
mailman.dementix.org <<A
href="https://mailman.dementix.org/mailman/listinfo/pittsburgh-railways">https://mailman.dementix.org/mailman/listinfo/pittsburgh-railways</A>><BR>>
[mailto:pittsburgh-railways-bounces at mailman.dementix.org <<A
href="https://mailman.dementix.org/mailman/listinfo/pittsburgh-railways">https://mailman.dementix.org/mailman/listinfo/pittsburgh-railways</A>>]
On Behalf Of<BR>> Dwight Long<BR>> Sent: Wednesday, September 10, 2014
6:26 PM<BR>> To: Western PA Trolley discussion<BR>> Subject: Re: [PRCo]
Simmons Loop, June-July-1953<BR>><BR>><BR>> Charleroi car house was
closed a few weeks (don't have the exact date here)<BR>> before the line
was abandoned south of Simmons. All service was then<BR>> operated
out of the Interurban barn at Tunnel. As to the 3800 which<BR>>
languished there for a long time, I have seen that car. It is my<BR>>
understanding that it was towed to Ingram some time in 1952, early 1952,
for<BR>> scrapping. It was not there in late 1952 when WP 832 was
moved to Charleroi<BR>> and stored there until May 1953. I don't know
when the other equipment was<BR>> moved, but no doubt prior to or right
after the barn closed.<BR>><BR>> There is another possibility that
neither one of us has mentioned heretofore<BR>> and that is that the
Simmons loop was already constructed WITH THE EXCEPTION<BR>> OF THE PIECE
WHERE THE SOUTHBOUND MAIN WAS, and possibly where the loop<BR>>
track intersected the northbound main. These pieces could have
been<BR>> fabricated and on site, so that after service on Rt. C ceased,
all that<BR>> would have had to be done was to remove rail at one or two
locations (either<BR>> with the gas wrench or by unbolting rail sections)
and insert and bolt or<BR>> weld in the missing pieces. This could
have been done, with a large enough<BR>> crew, very quickly and would have
been the least expensive way to accomplish<BR>> inauguration of Simmons
loop.<BR>><BR>> Unless, and I doubt this was true, the loop were made
with a PERFECT 90<BR>> DEGREE INTERSECTION of the loop track with the
southbound main, a<BR>> SPECIALLY-CONSTRUCTED set of frogs would have had
to be fabricated according<BR>> to the respective angles. That would
have been expensive. Drake loop was,<BR>> as you say, a reuse of the
Sewickley loop, but Drake was all new work which<BR>> could be done without
the impact of traffic, as the Walthers wye sufficed<BR>> til it was
done. Not at all comparable to the situation at Simmons.<BR>><BR>>
Tylerdale CH was also closed before the end of service on the W line, so
I<BR>> don't know what car would have been the last one out of there.
No doubt,<BR>> however, it would have been before the end of revenue
service, not before<BR>> that. The last passenger cars on Rt. W south
of Ruthfred were in March 1954<BR>> but none of them went as far south as
Tylerdale CH. WP 832 went the<BR>> furthest south but it turned at a
point short of Tylerdale. The W line was<BR>> scrapped (OHL and
track) using rubber-tired vehicles--I have fots of<BR>> this--and I ASSUME
C line was done in same way.<BR>><BR>> Sorry I will not see you on
Friday, but I will try to find what I can in the<BR>> archives and will
report accordingly.<BR>><BR>> Dwight<BR>> -----
Original Message -----<BR>> From: Holland, James
B.<BR>> To: 1711_PRCo_WP_JTC<BR>>
Sent: Wednesday, September 10, 2014 1:50 PM<BR>> Subject:
[PRCo] Simmons Loop, June-July-1953<BR>><BR>><BR>>
>> On Fri, Sep 5, 2014 at 6:10 AM, Holland, James B. <PRCoPCC
at<BR>> >> p-r-co.com>
wrote:<BR>> >><BR>> >>
....... About a decade ago a photo was posted here showing
the<BR>> >> crossing -- the photographer was south
looking north. I believe Mark<BR>> >> in
Florida posted the photo. I have searched the lisp photo
files:<BR>>
>>http://lists.dementix.org/files/pittsburgh-railways/<BR>>
>> ...using: "Char; prw; loop; track; sim" each of them separately
to<BR>> >> see if I could find the photo which I
could not. Maybe others shall<BR>> >> be more
successful.<BR>> ><BR>>
><BR>> > On Mon Sep 8 06:57:37 EDT 2014, D Brashear
shadow at dementix.org wrote<BR>>
><BR>> > Jim, right idea but no picture. Mark
[McGuire] said:<BR>> ><BR>>
> "There is a shot on page 127 (bottom) in Leroy
King's Vol. IV of a<BR>> >
1700 car at Simmons taken from the abandoned Charleroi
trackage<BR>> > looking north.
Now I just need to find something similar but<BR>>
> looking south into the abandoned trackage. I have
an old Bill<BR>> > Gwinn
contact print of 4398 on a fantrip looking south but it
is<BR>> > very
blurry."<BR>> ><BR>><BR>>
Ahhhhhhh -- list server Just Back Up and Online And Hopefully
running<BR>> .......<BR>><BR>>
Thank You Mark and Daria! -- The book-photo IS fuzzy but NB
Charleroi<BR>> tangent/'straight' rails clearly indicate
guard rails whether or not the<BR>> point/mate are still
in place. Guard rails would not be on a tangent
at<BR>> this location without special work. The
picture I am looking for<BR>> clearly shows the crossing
frogs in the loop/SB track to Charleroi, a<BR>> prw photo
similar view of book. Such a crossing is "Not
New<BR>> Fabrication" but reclaimed from elsewhere on
PRCo (Sewickley loop became<BR>> Drake loop--Undt
Udders!)++ Here is another pic of elusive 1701
at<BR>> Simmons (possibly from Mark) looking the other
direction. But like<BR>> others, it does not tell
us anything:<BR>> 1701_Simmons.jpg -- URL
below<BR>><BR>> ++
"....... Railways generally had old hardware on hand
(removed<BR>> from other
locations but still usable) for such purposes. Removal
of<BR>> crossing (along with
trail point//mate) allow installation of
larger<BR>> curved section on new
loop without excess joints."<BR>> <BR>> <A
href="http://mailman.dementix.org/pipermail/pittsburgh-railways/2014-September/033">http://mailman.dementix.org/pipermail/pittsburgh-railways/2014-September/033</A><BR>>
337.html<BR>><BR>><BR>> We can take a lesson from
the "wording" about Washington Closure which is in Noah's ArkIves for the
list: "PRCo PCC Interurban 1711 was the last REVENUE run from Washington
to Pgh." It was NOT the last car out of
Tylerdale.<BR>><BR>> Back to Charleroi: While
service was terminated, much is needed to bring "Real Closure" to the line
which includes moving both Spare Revenue cars (PCCs, DE-Low-Floor cars,
possibly one 3800-series car which remained at least beyond end of service for
said vehicles If Not to the very end of Charleroi) and "M" equipment to other
locations on PRCo property as well as removal of overhead for scrap value then
dismantling the tracks. There is much more to closing out operations
with real estate (barn) etc. Thus the turnout in the NB track to allow
equipment from Charleroi to move to Pgh and work equipment to do what it has
to do down there.<BR>><BR>> NO! The rwy would
not move spares ahead of closure. Operation continues as usual until
after closure; one can not predict if car changes shall not be necessary on
final runs. (As for Washington, the city lines ended some weeks ahead of
the interurban so those cars could be moved out once they are not
needed.)<BR>><BR>> The 4398 would be almost 2+years
after Char closure, too late for our needs.<BR>> The
following photos are URLs at the bottom of the email from the following
charter:<BR>> 1955.06.12 4398 PRCo Monongahela Incline,
57, 32, 36, 35, 38A, 38, 42, 40, 48, 49, 22, 4, 5, 21, 8, 10, 15, 13, 6,
18.<BR>> 4398SimmonsLoop-01_19550612.jpg -- already
posted as BIN<BR>><BR>>
4398SimmonsLoop-02_19550612.jpg -- already posted as
BIN<BR>><BR>>
4398_36-Loop_19550612_1600.jpg<BR>><BR>> This email in
'draft' when Daria posted to change BIN to JPG. You did post these
photos to list 2003-10-28 -- or that is date I downloaded
it. So now you have double copies of the photos; sell the extra one
on ebay!<BR>><BR>>
--<BR>>
*Jim*<BR><BR><BR><BR>_______________________________________________<BR>Pittsburgh-railways
mailing list<BR><A
href="mailto:Pittsburgh-railways@mailman.dementix.org">Pittsburgh-railways@mailman.dementix.org</A><BR><A
href="https://mailman.dementix.org/mailman/listinfo/pittsburgh-railways">https://mailman.dementix.org/mailman/listinfo/pittsburgh-railways</A></BLOCKQUOTE>
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