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<DIV><FONT size=4>Right!</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4>I have decent color shot of M-212 at Castle Shannon loaded
with the “booty” from one of these expeditions. Will be glad to share with
anyone interested—contact me off list.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4>It’s unknown to me whether the same drill occurred on Line
C. How many signals and the like did PRC need?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4>The photo in Roy King’s book is not dispositive. It
shows clearly where the southbound line was cut at Simmons, but is undated
(although showing trolley wire still intact over both lines south of
Simmons). It is not clear enough to disclose positively one way or other
whether there was a switch on the northbound line from the loop. One could
argue either way. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4>What it DOES do is illustrate graphically what I have been
trying to convey in words: that any crossing frogs needed to cross the
loop over the southbound Line C main would be at such an acute angle that I
doubt very seriously that PRC would have such a custom item in stock. I
believe if there were frogs installed they would have had to be specially
fabricated for this application, at considerable expense for the very limited
use intended, and with no likely future use.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4>If PRC needed to get equipment south of Simmons for removal of
signals and the like, a switch on the northbound line at the loop would have
sufficed. Works cars could have gone “wrong rail” south to crossover at
McChain, a short distance south of Simmons, which I assume was still
operable. If not, flagging thru Finleyville for a few once a day trips
would hardly be an imposition, since the works cars would have had several
people on the crew. All this is consistent with Ed’s earlier
comment.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4>PRC was intent upon closing both outlying barns. There
is some evidence that arrangements had been made to operate line D out of Tunnel
Car House after the planned closure of Charleroi Car House, but approval from
the Pennsylvania PUC to abandon the line in advance of a decision on Line C
negated this. Only one car was needed for D as through operation to
Riverview had ceased at some earlier time, and only a solitary shuttle from
Black Diamond to Donora was being run at the time of discontinuance. Deadheading
the car to and from Tunnel (assuming it were not to be simply parked at Black
Diamond or in the Donora station wye overnight) would have been less expensive
than keeping Charleroi Car House open.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4>On to Arden!</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4>Dwight</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4></FONT> </DIV>
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<DIV style="font-color: black"><B>From:</B> <A title=trams2@comcast.net
href="mailto:trams2@comcast.net">Edward H. Lybarger</A> </DIV>
<DIV><B>Sent:</B> Thursday, 11 September, 2014 08:19</DIV>
<DIV><B>To:</B> <A title=pittsburgh-railways@mailman.dementix.org
href="mailto:pittsburgh-railways@mailman.dementix.org">'Western PA Trolley
discussion'</A> </DIV>
<DIV><B>Subject:</B> Re: [PRCo] Simmons Loop,
June-July-1953</DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV>
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<DIV
style='FONT-SIZE: small; TEXT-DECORATION: none; FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri"; FONT-WEIGHT: normal; COLOR: #000000; FONT-STYLE: normal; DISPLAY: inline'>Donora
closed May 16, along with the eastern half (remainder) of East & West<BR>and
North Washington. Jefferson & Maiden closed June 20. When speaking
of<BR>equipment south of Drake, I was referring, I think, to work cars that
were<BR>being used to salvage material from the line prior to its being turned
over<BR>to the scrapper for dismantling. PRC brought back numerous signals
and the<BR>like (there is some documentation, I believe). But I honestly
do not<BR>remember the conversation. There were no low-floor cars out
there after<BR>June.<BR><BR>-----Original Message-----<BR>From:
pittsburgh-railways-bounces@mailman.dementix.org<BR>[mailto:pittsburgh-railways-bounces@mailman.dementix.org]
On Behalf Of<BR>Holland, James B.<BR>Sent: Wednesday, September 10, 2014 10:23
PM<BR>To: 1711_PRCo_WP_JTC<BR>Subject: Re: [PRCo] Simmons Loop,
June-July-1953<BR><BR>I MOST DEFINITELY KNOW:::::::<BR><BR>1711_Last REVENUE
PRCo PCC Interurban Washington To Pittsburgh -- 1711_Last<BR>REVENUE PRCo PCC
Interurban to carry passengers from Washington to Pgh!<BR><BR>"Dr. Ed Lybarger
Himself" wrote here or Said In Person To Me that there was<BR>other equipment in
Washington that needed to return to Pittsburgh AFTER 1711<BR>made the last
official run with passengers. Car Barns may have closed but a<BR>skeleton crew
is necessary because of those cars at Washington that Ed said<BR>needed moved to
Pgh AND in case there were problems on any of the last runs.<BR>Did Donora close
before Charleroi? <BR>If not, those DE cars needed moved After the Line
Closed.<BR><BR>********************************************************<BR><BR>NOTHING
special needs to be fabricated. The ONLY thing that is needed is
a<BR>crossing across track with the Same Track Center and you have a Ready
Made<BR>Crossing to fit Simmons Loop. A double track in street or on prw
with the<BR>same track center as at Simmons and a turn on that which corresponds
to the<BR>turn needed for Simmons -- spares of such removed track would be
available,<BR>as was Sewickly loop available for Drake. <BR>There would be
MANY of these. YES! Pgh had a variety of track centers but<BR>there
are MANY places that have identical track centers. What is so<BR>difficult
to understand about this? Is a Drawing Necessary? I am not
doing<BR>one. I did not compare Drake Loop and Simmons -- Those are your
words, Not<BR>Mine -- Please do NOT misquote me -- ALL I said is that reclaimed
track from<BR>23 was used for the Drake loop. I said that to underscore
that a reclaimed<BR>crossing and track points were used at Simmons and then
removed and replaced<BR>with regular rail when access south was not needed any
more.<BR><BR>********************************************************<BR><BR><BR>Again,
for the UMPTEENTH time -- I have seen the picture of the crossing in<BR>the SB
and Simmons loop Track AND I am 90% positive it was posted here on<BR>the list a
decade ago -- but finding it is elusive. it IS more fuzzy than<BR>the
photo in the book, maybe because of the
scan.<BR><BR><BR>********************************************************<BR><BR>YES!
-- I DID think that it is possible to build the loop except for the<BR>final
turn across the tracks -- LONG before you mentioned it. But I did
not<BR>want to complicate what people could not already understand.
<BR>But Remember this::: The Last run comes through in the Very Wee hours
of<BR>the morning and Library had OWL service. The likelihood of finishing
the<BR>loop at this hour of the night ON Overtime and disturbing neighbors,
not<BR>many for sure, but still a disturbance, is unlikely. Where are the
X-Overs<BR>-- Mesta was the closest NB and there was nothing SB to my knowledge
until<BR>Lanks the beginning of single track. Portable X-Overs?
<BR>That works nicely over pavement but not on PRW -- much extra support
is<BR>needed -- they are free floating. Not impossible but another
distinct<BR>challenge and possible problems with so many regular Library revenue
cars.<BR>Cut X-Overs in at Grade? THAT is far more work than making a
complete loop<BR>AT Grade with an existing curve and track center identical and
ALL parts<BR>already available.<BR><BR>ALL that is necessary is is to make
4-cuts in the SB rails, 2-cuts in each<BR>rail, remove those 2-pieces of rail,
SET the 4-crossing frogs in place, and<BR>secure. Just SET in place and
equipment could pass through. <BR>YES IT COULD. A video is available
from Richard, Keegan, of Hays, KS, which<BR>MANY here have or have seen showing
"Curved-Girder-Guard-Rail" -- 7"-9"-High<BR>-- replaced, daytime, weekday,
during service, Martin Villa-IB, IN the<BR>Street. The old rail was
removed, the new rail SET in place, and the<BR>service car operated through --
NO spikes. Crane car shuttled to Castle<BR>Shannon and return -- THAT is
also shown in the video.<BR><BR>I saw the same identical thing when the point
into the Dormont wye-OB was<BR>replaced -- it was simply set in place and a car
allowed to pass thru into a<BR>sharp turn. This was a 1700-city car with
the crazy op with fiery-red hair.<BR>He hit the point hard "purposely" and the
car really heaved but the point<BR>stayed in place. I Was young but knew
that was dead wrong; he had a bad<BR>altitude (and he seemed to disappear within
a year or two.)<BR><BR>Regardless of you thinking that the Interurbans would use
the 42/38 it IS<BR>True, as you did discover, that they used the 38-line.
I TOLD THE TRUTH. I<BR>lived there and experienced it. It is VERY
strange to me that ALL others on<BR>this lisP can write by memory and everybody
fauns over it, yet my memory is<BR>NOT allowed in spite of a history here
providing very good information, at<BR>first denied by ALL, but later
confirmed. That has Most Definitely Happened<BR>Not A Few
Times.<BR><BR>Again, I TELL THE TRUTH for the UMPTEENTH time -- I have seen the
picture of<BR>the crossing in the SB and Simmons loop Track AND I am positive it
was<BR>posted here on the list a decade ago -- but finding it is elusive.
It IS<BR>more fuzzy than the photo in the book, maybe because of the
scan.<BR>Construction of the loop as I detail is highly logical -- in all
honesty,<BR>THE MOST logical and NOT Expensive using reclaimed rail and special
work as<BR>IS the custom.<BR><BR>It is uncertain as to whether I shall visit
Friday or not. My original<BR>plans were to attend the West Penn MODEL
meet at PTM on those days and to<BR>see someone in another dept for whom I have
some items to donate. I would<BR>stop to see Ed in the archives as is my
custom when visiting on weekdays.<BR><BR>What changed my mind was the
"possibility" of taking New Operator Training<BR>the last weekend of September,
thus the cancellation of this weekend.<BR><BR>In all honesty, all this @!^%$#
has killed my enthusiasm. And after working<BR>35+years as an Operator on
San Francisco Muniserable Railways (During which<BR>80% of ALL surface tracks
were rebuilt while I was working on PCCs in the<BR>1970s--so I am Highly
Informed on Track work) and dealing with all the<BR>@!^%$# there, it shall be
little different operating at PTM. The<BR>Dispatching on a couple nights
during Washington County Fair this year was<BR>abysmal. When the
dispatcher received a "Question" on the radio, his<BR>response was:::
"Ten-Four." He would make a Grrrrrrreat Muni
candidate.<BR><BR>--<BR>*Jim*<BR><BR>SF_MUNI_RECLAIMED_SPECIALWORK_INSTALLATION
-- -- without evening jogging<BR>memory I can think of 2-specific locations that
used reclaimed rail,<BR>crossings, and turnouts when single-end equipment became
the norm --<BR>30th//Judah wye and 35th//Taraval wye. On the wye leg on
both 30th and<BR>35th, a 3-way special-work point and mate were used with right
and left<BR>turns as well as tangent straight through -- this is what was
available,<BR>this is what was used even though a straight thru tangent was not
needed. I<BR>bet you shall even deny that. Out-of-towners always
assume a line went<BR>straight thru, but never did.<BR><BR><BR>>
[PRCo] Simmons Loop, June-July-1953<BR>><BR>> *Edward H. Lybarger* trams2
at comcast.net <BR>>
<mailto:pittsburgh-railways%40mailman.dementix.org?Subject=Re:%20%5BPR<BR>>
Co%5D%20Simmons%20Loop%2C%20June-July-1953&In-Reply-To=%3C001b01cfcd48<BR>>
%2476fe2420%2464fa6c60%24%40comcast.net%3E><BR>> /Wed Sep 10 18:42:13 EDT
2014/<BR>><BR>> * Previous message: [PRCo] Simmons Loop,
June-July-1953<BR>><BR><http://mailman.dementix.org/pipermail/pittsburgh-railways/2014-September/03<BR>3363.html><BR>>
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----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>>
-- Both interurban car houses were closed at the end of June 20's <BR>>
schedule. I always imagined that the loop cut-in was done exactly as
<BR>> Dwight suggests.<BR>> To do otherwise would have been costly and
cumbersome; PRC didn't like <BR>> those kinds of things when avoidable.
Having the northbound track <BR>> complete, only now with a switch point so
cars could come out of the <BR>> new loop, enabled the return of anything
south of Library. And a <BR>> couple crossovers would have easily
enabled southbound movements when<BR>needed.<BR>><BR>> -----Original
Message-----<BR>> From:pittsburgh-railways-bounces at
mailman.dementix.org <BR>>
<https://mailman.dementix.org/mailman/listinfo/pittsburgh-railways><BR>>
[mailto:pittsburgh-railways-bounces at mailman.dementix.org <BR>>
<https://mailman.dementix.org/mailman/listinfo/pittsburgh-railways>]
<BR>> On Behalf Of Dwight Long<BR>> Sent: Wednesday, September 10, 2014
6:26 PM<BR>> To: Western PA Trolley discussion<BR>> Subject: Re: [PRCo]
Simmons Loop, June-July-1953<BR>><BR>><BR>> Charleroi car house was
closed a few weeks (don't have the exact date <BR>> here) before the line was
abandoned south of Simmons. All service was <BR>> then operated out of
the Interurban barn at Tunnel. As to the 3800 <BR>> which languished
there for a long time, I have seen that car. It is <BR>> my
understanding that it was towed to Ingram some time in 1952, early <BR>>
1952, for scrapping. It was not there in late 1952 when WP 832 was
<BR>> moved to Charleroi and stored there until May 1953. I don't know
when <BR>> the other equipment was moved, but no doubt prior to or right
after the<BR>barn closed.<BR>><BR>> There is another possibility that
neither one of us has mentioned <BR>> heretofore and that is that the Simmons
loop was already constructed <BR>> WITH THE EXCEPTION OF THE PIECE WHERE THE
SOUTHBOUND MAIN WAS, and <BR>> possibly where the loop track
intersected the northbound main. These <BR>> pieces could have been
fabricated and on site, so that after service <BR>> on Rt. C ceased, all that
would have had to be done was to remove rail <BR>> at one or two locations
(either with the gas wrench or by unbolting <BR>> rail sections) and insert
and bolt or weld in the missing pieces. <BR>> This could have been
done, with a large enough crew, very quickly and <BR>> would have been the
least expensive way to accomplish inauguration of<BR>Simmons
loop.<BR>><BR>> Unless, and I doubt this was true, the loop were made with
a PERFECT <BR>> 90 DEGREE INTERSECTION of the loop track with the southbound
main, a <BR>> SPECIALLY-CONSTRUCTED set of frogs would have had to be
fabricated <BR>> according to the respective angles. That would have
been expensive. <BR>> Drake loop was, as you say, a reuse of the
Sewickley loop, but Drake <BR>> was all new work which could be done without
the impact of traffic, as <BR>> the Walthers wye sufficed til it was
done. Not at all comparable to the<BR>situation at
Simmons.<BR>><BR>> Tylerdale CH was also closed before the end of service
on the W line, <BR>> so I don't know what car would have been the last one
out of there. <BR>> No doubt, however, it would have been before the
end of revenue <BR>> service, not before that. The last passenger cars
on Rt. W south of <BR>> Ruthfred were in March 1954 but none of them went as
far south as <BR>> Tylerdale CH. WP 832 went the furthest south but it
turned at a point <BR>> short of Tylerdale. The W line was scrapped
(OHL and track) using <BR>> rubber-tired vehicles--I have fots of this--and I
ASSUME C line was done<BR>in same way.<BR>><BR>> Sorry I will not see you
on Friday, but I will try to find what I can <BR>> in the archives and will
report accordingly.<BR>><BR>> Dwight<BR>> -----
Original Message -----<BR>> From: Holland, James
B.<BR>> To: 1711_PRCo_WP_JTC<BR>>
Sent: Wednesday, September 10, 2014 1:50 PM<BR>> Subject:
[PRCo] Simmons Loop, June-July-1953<BR>><BR>><BR>>
>> On Fri, Sep 5, 2014 at 6:10 AM, Holland, James B. <PRCoPCC
at<BR>> >> p-r-co.com>
wrote:<BR>> >><BR>> >>
....... About a decade ago a photo was posted here showing
the<BR>> >> crossing -- the photographer was south
looking north. I believe<BR>Mark<BR>> >> in
Florida posted the photo. I have searched the lisp photo
files:<BR>>
>>http://lists.dementix.org/files/pittsburgh-railways/<BR>>
>> ...using: "Char; prw; loop; track; sim" each of them separately
to<BR>> >> see if I could find the photo which I
could not. Maybe others shall<BR>> >> be more
successful.<BR>> ><BR>>
><BR>> > On Mon Sep 8 06:57:37 EDT 2014, D Brashear
shadow at dementix.org<BR>wrote<BR>>
><BR>> > Jim, right idea but no picture. Mark
[McGuire] said:<BR>> ><BR>>
> "There is a shot on page 127 (bottom) in Leroy
King's Vol. IV of<BR>a<BR>> >
1700 car at Simmons taken from the abandoned Charleroi
trackage<BR>> > looking north.
Now I just need to find something similar but<BR>>
> looking south into the abandoned trackage. I have
an old Bill<BR>> > Gwinn contact
print of 4398 on a fantrip looking south but it is<BR>>
> very blurry."<BR>>
><BR>><BR>> Ahhhhhhh -- list server Just Back Up and
Online And Hopefully running<BR>>
.......<BR>><BR>> Thank You Mark and Daria! -- The
book-photo IS fuzzy but NB Charleroi<BR>>
tangent/'straight' rails clearly indicate guard rails whether or
not<BR>the<BR>> point/mate are still in place. Guard
rails would not be on a tangent<BR>at<BR>> this location
without special work. The picture I am looking
for<BR>> clearly shows the crossing frogs in the loop/SB
track to Charleroi, a<BR>> prw photo similar view of
book. Such a crossing is "Not New<BR>> Fabrication"
but reclaimed from elsewhere on PRCo (Sewickley
loop<BR>became<BR>> Drake loop--Undt Udders!)++ Here
is another pic of elusive 1701 at<BR>> Simmons (possibly
from Mark) looking the other direction. But like<BR>>
others, it does not tell us anything:<BR>> 1701_Simmons.jpg
-- URL below<BR>><BR>> ++
"....... Railways generally had old hardware on hand
(removed<BR>> from other locations
but still usable) for such purposes.
Removal<BR>of<BR>> crossing (along
with trail point//mate) allow installation
of<BR>larger<BR>> curved section on
new loop without excess joints."<BR>> <BR>>
http://mailman.dementix.org/pipermail/pittsburgh-railways/2014-Septemb<BR>>
er/033<BR>> 337.html<BR>><BR>><BR>> We can take a
lesson from the "wording" about Washington Closure which<BR>is in Noah's ArkIves
for the list: "PRCo PCC Interurban 1711 was the last<BR>REVENUE run from
Washington to Pgh." It was NOT the last car out
of<BR>Tylerdale.<BR>><BR>> Back to Charleroi:
While service was terminated, much is needed to<BR>bring "Real Closure" to the
line which includes moving both Spare Revenue<BR>cars (PCCs, DE-Low-Floor cars,
possibly one 3800-series car which remained<BR>at least beyond end of service
for said vehicles If Not to the very end of<BR>Charleroi) and "M" equipment to
other locations on PRCo property as well as<BR>removal of overhead for scrap
value then dismantling the tracks. There is<BR>much more to closing out
operations with real estate (barn) etc. Thus the<BR>turnout in the NB
track to allow equipment from Charleroi to move to Pgh and<BR>work equipment to
do what it has to do down there.<BR>><BR>> NO! The
rwy would not move spares ahead of closure. Operation <BR>> continues
as usual until after closure; one can not predict if car <BR>> changes shall
not be necessary on final runs. (As for Washington, the <BR>> city
lines ended some weeks ahead of the interurban so those cars <BR>> could be
moved out once they are not needed.)<BR>><BR>> The 4398
would be almost 2+years after Char closure, too late for
our<BR>needs.<BR>> The following photos are URLs at the
bottom of the email from the<BR>following charter:<BR>>
1955.06.12 4398 PRCo Monongahela Incline, 57, 32, 36, 35, 38A, 38, 42,<BR>40,
48, 49, 22, 4, 5, 21, 8, 10, 15, 13, 6, 18.<BR>>
4398SimmonsLoop-01_19550612.jpg -- already posted as
BIN<BR>><BR>> 4398SimmonsLoop-02_19550612.jpg -- already
posted as BIN<BR>><BR>>
4398_36-Loop_19550612_1600.jpg<BR>><BR>> This email in
'draft' when Daria posted to change BIN to JPG. You did<BR>post these
photos to list 2003-10-28 -- or that is date I downloaded it.<BR>So
now you have double copies of the photos; sell the extra one on
ebay!<BR>><BR>> --<BR>>
*Jim*<BR><BR><BR><BR>_______________________________________________<BR>Pittsburgh-railways
mailing
list<BR>Pittsburgh-railways@mailman.dementix.org<BR>https://mailman.dementix.org/mailman/listinfo/pittsburgh-railways<BR><BR><BR>---<BR>This
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