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<DIV><FONT face="Century Gothic"></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Century Gothic">As stated in previous emails, I spent the day
last Friday in the archives at Arden. While my primary mission was to help
rearrange and sort things there, with Ed's help I was able to research the
Simmons loop issue about which there have been conflicting theories expressed on
this list recently.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Century Gothic"></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Century Gothic">There is a complete, original PRC file on the
construction of this loop at Arden. It contains two drawings, a large,
annotated engineering drawing and a smaller (but still larger than standard
paper) one showing record of track changes and also the loop schematic.
The folder is Construction Order 646. In addition to the drawings, it
contains a wealth of other data, including bill of materials, costs, dates, and
the like. From this evidence it is incontrovertible that the loop was
built WITHOUT any crossing frogs in the southbound main line at Simmons.
There WAS a trailing point switch in the northbound main line, as Ed stated, as
well as the switch in the southbound main serving the loop and the center
cripple track (a portion of the old southbound main). NOWHERE is there any
reference to additional frogs or other specialwork that would be needed to
install a crossing of the southbound main, and none is shown on the engineering
drawings. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Century Gothic"></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Century Gothic">Some other factoids about Simmons
loop:</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Century Gothic"></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Century Gothic"> --The curved rail special
work was done at Millvale CH</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Century Gothic"> --The shelter there was
recycled from its previous location at Black Diamond</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Century Gothic"> --The first car to use the
new loop was 1721, operating as train 27 with operator 6010, at 0848 on 29 June
1953.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Century Gothic"> --From the time of the last
car on Rt. C until the above, Rt. 35 cars turned at West Library Loop and backed
to Simmons.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Century Gothic"></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Century Gothic">There were apparently some works car moves
south of Simmons to remove signals and possibly other valuable line materials
after 28 June, as Ed said that there are records in the Museum showing
that some signals now there were originally on the Charleroi line. These
may have been removed by PRC crews using M-212 as was done on the Washington
line. In that case the northbound main line south of Simmons would have
been used in both directions for the relatively few trips involved.
</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Century Gothic"></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Century Gothic">I trust that this research, which validates
contemporary accounts, disposes of this matter to everyone's
satisfaction.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Century Gothic"></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Century Gothic">Dwight</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT: 10pt arial; BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=trams2@comcast.net href="mailto:trams2@comcast.net">Edward H.
Lybarger</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
title=pittsburgh-railways@mailman.dementix.org
href="mailto:pittsburgh-railways@mailman.dementix.org">'Western PA Trolley
discussion'</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Wednesday, September 10, 2014 6:42
PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [PRCo] Simmons Loop,
June-July-1953</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>Both interurban car houses were closed at the end of June 20's
schedule. I<BR>always imagined that the loop cut-in was done exactly as
Dwight suggests.<BR>To do otherwise would have been costly and cumbersome; PRC
didn't like those<BR>kinds of things when avoidable. Having the
northbound track complete, only<BR>now with a switch point so cars could come
out of the new loop, enabled the<BR>return of anything south of Library.
And a couple crossovers would have<BR>easily enabled southbound movements when
needed.<BR><BR>-----Original Message-----<BR>From: <A
href="mailto:pittsburgh-railways-bounces@mailman.dementix.org">pittsburgh-railways-bounces@mailman.dementix.org</A><BR>[mailto:pittsburgh-railways-bounces@mailman.dementix.org]
On Behalf Of<BR>Dwight Long<BR>Sent: Wednesday, September 10, 2014 6:26
PM<BR>To: Western PA Trolley discussion<BR>Subject: Re: [PRCo] Simmons Loop,
June-July-1953<BR><BR><BR>Charleroi car house was closed a few weeks (don't
have the exact date here)<BR>before the line was abandoned south of
Simmons. All service was then<BR>operated out of the Interurban barn at
Tunnel. As to the 3800 which<BR>languished there for a long time, I have
seen that car. It is my<BR>understanding that it was towed to Ingram
some time in 1952, early 1952, for<BR>scrapping. It was not there in
late 1952 when WP 832 was moved to Charleroi<BR>and stored there until May
1953. I don't know when the other equipment was<BR>moved, but no doubt
prior to or right after the barn closed.<BR><BR>There is another possibility
that neither one of us has mentioned heretofore<BR>and that is that the
Simmons loop was already constructed WITH THE EXCEPTION<BR>OF THE PIECE WHERE
THE SOUTHBOUND MAIN WAS, and possibly where the loop<BR>track
intersected the northbound main. These pieces could have
been<BR>fabricated and on site, so that after service on Rt. C ceased, all
that<BR>would have had to be done was to remove rail at one or two locations
(either<BR>with the gas wrench or by unbolting rail sections) and insert and
bolt or<BR>weld in the missing pieces. This could have been done, with a
large enough<BR>crew, very quickly and would have been the least expensive way
to accomplish<BR>inauguration of Simmons loop. <BR><BR>Unless, and I
doubt this was true, the loop were made with a PERFECT 90<BR>DEGREE
INTERSECTION of the loop track with the southbound main,
a<BR>SPECIALLY-CONSTRUCTED set of frogs would have had to be fabricated
according<BR>to the respective angles. That would have been
expensive. Drake loop was,<BR>as you say, a reuse of the Sewickley loop,
but Drake was all new work which<BR>could be done without the impact of
traffic, as the Walthers wye sufficed<BR>til it was done. Not at all
comparable to the situation at Simmons.<BR><BR>Tylerdale CH was also closed
before the end of service on the W line, so I<BR>don't know what car would
have been the last one out of there. No doubt,<BR>however, it would have
been before the end of revenue service, not before<BR>that. The last
passenger cars on Rt. W south of Ruthfred were in March 1954<BR>but none of
them went as far south as Tylerdale CH. WP 832 went the<BR>furthest
south but it turned at a point short of Tylerdale. The W line
was<BR>scrapped (OHL and track) using rubber-tired vehicles--I have fots
of<BR>this--and I ASSUME C line was done in same way.<BR><BR>Sorry I will not
see you on Friday, but I will try to find what I can in the<BR>archives and
will report accordingly.<BR><BR>Dwight<BR> ----- Original Message -----
<BR> From: Holland, James B. <BR> To: 1711_PRCo_WP_JTC <BR>
Sent: Wednesday, September 10, 2014 1:50 PM<BR> Subject: [PRCo] Simmons
Loop, June-July-1953<BR><BR><BR> >> On Fri, Sep 5, 2014 at 6:10
AM, Holland, James B. <PRCoPCC at <BR> >> p-r-co.com>
wrote:<BR> >><BR> >> ....... About a decade ago a
photo was posted here showing the <BR> >> crossing -- the
photographer was south looking north. I believe Mark <BR> >>
in Florida posted the photo. I have searched the lisp photo
files:<BR> >> <A
href="http://lists.dementix.org/files/pittsburgh-railways/">http://lists.dementix.org/files/pittsburgh-railways/</A><BR>
>> ...using: "Char; prw; loop; track; sim" each of them separately
to <BR> >> see if I could find the photo which I could not.
Maybe others shall <BR> >> be more successful.<BR>
><BR> ><BR> > On Mon Sep 8 06:57:37 EDT 2014, D Brashear
shadow at dementix.org wrote<BR> ><BR> > Jim, right idea but
no picture. Mark [McGuire] said:<BR> ><BR>
> "There is a shot on page 127 (bottom) in Leroy
King's Vol. IV of a<BR> > 1700 car at Simmons
taken from the abandoned Charleroi trackage<BR>
> looking north. Now I just need to find something
similar but<BR> > looking south into the
abandoned trackage. I have an old Bill<BR> >
Gwinn contact print of 4398 on a fantrip looking south but it is<BR>
> very blurry."<BR> ><BR><BR>
Ahhhhhhh -- list server Just Back Up and Online And Hopefully running
<BR> .......<BR><BR> Thank You Mark and Daria! -- The book-photo
IS fuzzy but NB Charleroi <BR> tangent/'straight' rails clearly indicate
guard rails whether or not the <BR> point/mate are still in place.
Guard rails would not be on a tangent at <BR> this location without
special work. The picture I am looking for <BR> clearly shows the
crossing frogs in the loop/SB track to Charleroi, a <BR> prw photo
similar view of book. Such a crossing is "Not New <BR>
Fabrication" but reclaimed from elsewhere on PRCo (Sewickley loop became
<BR> Drake loop--Undt Udders!)++ Here is another pic of elusive
1701 at <BR> Simmons (possibly from Mark) looking the other
direction. But like <BR> others, it does not tell us
anything:<BR> 1701_Simmons.jpg -- URL
below<BR><BR> ++ "....... Railways
generally had old hardware on hand (removed<BR>
from other locations but still usable) for such purposes. Removal
of<BR> crossing (along with trail point//mate)
allow installation of larger<BR> curved section
on new loop without excess joints."<BR> <BR><A
href="http://mailman.dementix.org/pipermail/pittsburgh-railways/2014-September/033">http://mailman.dementix.org/pipermail/pittsburgh-railways/2014-September/033</A><BR>337.html<BR><BR><BR>
We can take a lesson from the "wording" about Washington Closure which
<BR> is in Noah's ArkIves for the list: "PRCo PCC Interurban 1711
was the <BR> last REVENUE run from Washington to Pgh." It was NOT
the last car out <BR> of Tylerdale.<BR><BR> Back to
Charleroi: While service was terminated, much is needed to <BR>
bring "Real Closure" to the line which includes moving both Spare <BR>
Revenue cars (PCCs, DE-Low-Floor cars, possibly one 3800-series car <BR>
which remained at least beyond end of service for said vehicles If Not
<BR> to the very end of Charleroi) and "M" equipment to other locations
on <BR> PRCo property as well as removal of overhead for scrap value
then <BR> dismantling the tracks. There is much more to closing
out operations <BR> with real estate (barn) etc. Thus the turnout
in the NB track to allow <BR> equipment from Charleroi to move to Pgh
and work equipment to do what it <BR> has to do down
there.<BR><BR> NO! The rwy would not move spares ahead of
closure. Operation <BR> continues as usual until after closure;
one can not predict if car <BR> changes shall not be necessary on final
runs. (As for Washington, the <BR> city lines ended some weeks
ahead of the interurban so those cars could <BR> be moved out once they
are not needed.)<BR><BR> The 4398 would be almost 2+years after Char
closure, too late for our<BR>needs.<BR> The following photos are URLs at
the bottom of the email from the <BR> following charter:<BR>
1955.06.12 4398 PRCo
Monongahela Incline, 57, 32, 36, 35, 38A, <BR> 38, 42, 40, 48, 49, 22,
4, 5, 21, 8, 10, 15, 13, 6, 18.<BR> 4398SimmonsLoop-01_19550612.jpg --
already posted as BIN<BR><BR> 4398SimmonsLoop-02_19550612.jpg -- already
posted as BIN<BR><BR> 4398_36-Loop_19550612_1600.jpg<BR><BR> This
email in 'draft' when Daria posted to change BIN to JPG. You did
<BR> post these photos to list 2003-10-28 -- or that is date I
downloaded <BR> it. So now you have double copies of the photos;
sell the extra one on <BR> ebay!<BR><BR> -- <BR>
*Jim*<BR><BR> PS-------I had intended being at PTM Archives on Friday
and Sat morn as <BR> well (12-13-Sept), but plans have changed and that
shall be rescheduled <BR> later in the month. I have rather active
"schedule//timetable" into <BR> early Oct.<BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR>
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