From ktjosephson at embarqmail.com  Mon Feb  2 01:28:49 2009
From: ktjosephson at embarqmail.com (Ken and Tracie)
Date: Sun, 1 Feb 2009 22:28:49 -0800
Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Hales Corners Terminal
References: <BAY137-DAV107792FF2663AD281FA85798C40@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <7DEEB43407214E44B0DA4B1E29627CC0@KTJosephson>

I have never thought about this before, but after viewing many photographic 
images of Speedrail cars 300 and 301 heading out North Cape Road to the 
loop, I have to ask, what was the point?

The cars were double ended and it seems it would have saved both money 
(electricity usage) and possible grief (potential accidents with side of the 
road running) to simply change ends at the terminal and then head back 
inbound.

I do know that after the Labor Day accident, Hales Corners cars mostly 
shuttled between West Junction and the terminal.

Am I missing something? Don?

K. 



From ktjosephson at embarqmail.com  Mon Feb  2 01:33:01 2009
From: ktjosephson at embarqmail.com (Ken and Tracie)
Date: Sun, 1 Feb 2009 22:33:01 -0800
Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Fw: Don Galt
Message-ID: <154BA57493024058B258147C2DAB67AB@KTJosephson>

Am shocked, to say the least and am still gathering my thoughts. The loss of 
Paul Weyrich a month ago, some family deaths and losses in friends' families 
since November.

Don was a wonderful human being who freely shared knowledge, his wit and his 
dry sense of humor.

A major loss to both the traction community and his friends.

K.

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Richard C. DeArmond" <dearmond at sfu.ca>
To: "etb site" <etb-news at sfu.ca>
Sent: Sunday, February 01, 2009 11:41 AM
Subject: Fwd: Don Galt


> Sad news:
>>
>>
>>Dear Mr. DeArmond,
>>
>>I am writing to report the sad news that my brother, Don Galt, succumbed 
>>on January 19 to the cancer for which he had been undergoing treatment for 
>>about a year.
>>
>>He clearly cherished your online friendship:  I found your name and e-mail 
>>address on a brief list of friends whom Don wished to have notified.
>>
>>Sincerely,
>>
>>Alan Galt
>>
>>3025 Paseo Estribo
>>
>>Carlsbad, California
>>
>>(760) 930-0654
>>
>>alangalt at fuse.net
>
> Don was one of the first members on my etb-news lists and he was also one 
> of the first contributors of photos to my site. I will always cherish 
> these photos. Most are on the Seattle site and a a couple on the Portland 
> site. He also contributed photos of a few other cities.
>
> Sincerely, Richard 



From DLeistikow at webtv.net  Mon Feb  2 02:11:12 2009
From: DLeistikow at webtv.net (Don L. Leistikow)
Date: Mon, 2 Feb 2009 01:11:12 -0600
Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: Hales Corners Terminal
In-Reply-To: "Ken and Tracie" <ktjosephson@embarqmail.com>'s message of Sun, 1 Feb 2009 22:28:49 -0800
Message-ID: <18244-49869C90-11147@storefull-3172.bay.webtv.net>

Ken and list:   You're forgetting the online industries in Hales
Corners.                      

There once was an industry on the site of today's Holz Motors.  A Lumber
Company, perhaps, long gone before Speedrail.  Then, on the SW corner of
S. 108th Street (Hwy 100) and North Cape Road, was the site of Hales
Corners Lumber & Fuel.  They regularly received Hopper Cars of Coal over
there.  At Hillcrest (HC Loop) was a small Standard Oil facility, very
similar to that which stood at the wye in East Troy.  Plus  separate
lead track also led to the fence line of a former WEPCO Yard for Line
Poles and Line Hardware.  So, there was ample reason for the cars to
loop at Hillcrest.                                    

Furthermore, the 300, 301 cars had a smoking partition still in place
which was kept to the rear of the car.  Albeit, there was a no smoking
rule on Speedrail cars, no one removed this partition.  The Smoker
actually encompassed about 25% of the cars seatingl.   The number two
end of these cars saw little use.                       

Don L.                           


ps:   During the rush hours, the Duplexes were pressed into service.
the 31-40 being used on the Waukesha Line.  41-46 were used in HC
service and the 47-50 trains were used in PSB-WJ service only.  The last
two trains did not get Field Tappers.           dll



From sunrise at bikethehoan.com  Mon Feb  2 10:50:47 2009
From: sunrise at bikethehoan.com (Bill Sell)
Date: Mon, 02 Feb 2009 09:50:47 -0600
Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: Hales Corners Terminal
In-Reply-To: <18244-49869C90-11147@storefull-3172.bay.webtv.net>
References: <"Ken and Tracie" <ktjosephson@embarqmail.com>
 <18244-49869C90-11147@storefull-3172.bay.webtv.net>
Message-ID: <20090202155024.MOEF4416.outaamta02.mail.tds.net@Hafiz.tds.net>

I remember much of what you describe. We moved to Hales Corners in 
1944. I was 5 and even remember the move. We used the rapid transit 
for the remaining years of its life.

Somehow I connect that oil facility (at the turn around loop) with a 
cooperative, but I'm not clear what the purpose of the cooperative 
was. I do think they had something to do with the oil or fuel storage 
tanks, but I also remember once buying food there.  It did not become 
"our" store because others were closer to our house on Forest 
Home.  We lived across the triangle from the rapid transit station, 
which was a white and green four walled (not heated) structure.  The 
triangle had a historic inn (Senft's) and two or three homes, before 
Forest Home was widened, decimating the possibility of a central 
Hales Corners downtown. The town is all about cars now.  I could go on....

Bill Sell





At 01:11 AM 2/2/2009, Don L. Leistikow wrote:
>Ken and list:   You're forgetting the online industries in Hales
>Corners.
>
>There once was an industry on the site of today's Holz Motors.  A Lumber
>Company, perhaps, long gone before Speedrail.  Then, on the SW corner of
>S. 108th Street (Hwy 100) and North Cape Road, was the site of Hales
>Corners Lumber & Fuel.  They regularly received Hopper Cars of Coal over
>there.  At Hillcrest (HC Loop) was a small Standard Oil facility, very
>similar to that which stood at the wye in East Troy.  Plus  separate
>lead track also led to the fence line of a former WEPCO Yard for Line
>Poles and Line Hardware.  So, there was ample reason for the cars to
>loop at Hillcrest.
>
>Furthermore, the 300, 301 cars had a smoking partition still in place
>which was kept to the rear of the car.  Albeit, there was a no smoking
>rule on Speedrail cars, no one removed this partition.  The Smoker
>actually encompassed about 25% of the cars seatingl.   The number two
>end of these cars saw little use.
>
>Don L.
>
>
>ps:   During the rush hours, the Duplexes were pressed into service.
>the 31-40 being used on the Waukesha Line.  41-46 were used in HC
>service and the 47-50 trains were used in PSB-WJ service only.  The last
>two trains did not get Field Tappers.           dll

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^.
"Let us put our minds together, and see what life we will make for 
our children." ---Tatanka-Iyotanka (Sitting Bull)  --- Hunkpapa Lakota chief  




From sbgreig_m1 at yahoo.com  Mon Feb  2 11:05:36 2009
From: sbgreig_m1 at yahoo.com (Scott Greig)
Date: Mon, 2 Feb 2009 08:05:36 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: Hales Corners Terminal
In-Reply-To: <20090202155024.MOEF4416.outaamta02.mail.tds.net@Hafiz.tds.net>
Message-ID: <332411.87705.qm@web65512.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>

I have a picture of that oil facility.


--- On Mon, 2/2/09, Bill Sell <sunrise at bikethehoan.com> wrote:

> From: Bill Sell <sunrise at bikethehoan.com>
> Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: Hales Corners Terminal
> To: milwaukee-electric at lists.dementia.org
> Date: Monday, February 2, 2009, 9:50 AM
> I remember much of what you describe. We moved to Hales
> Corners in 
> 1944. I was 5 and even remember the move. We used the rapid
> transit 
> for the remaining years of its life.
> 
> Somehow I connect that oil facility (at the turn around
> loop) with a 
> cooperative, but I'm not clear what the purpose of the
> cooperative 
> was. I do think they had something to do with the oil or
> fuel storage 
> tanks, but I also remember once buying food there.  It did
> not become 
> "our" store because others were closer to our
> house on Forest 
> Home.  We lived across the triangle from the rapid transit
> station, 
> which was a white and green four walled (not heated)
> structure.  The 
> triangle had a historic inn (Senft's) and two or three
> homes, before 
> Forest Home was widened, decimating the possibility of a
> central 
> Hales Corners downtown. The town is all about cars now.  I
> could go on....
> 
> Bill Sell
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> At 01:11 AM 2/2/2009, Don L. Leistikow wrote:
> >Ken and list:   You're forgetting the online
> industries in Hales
> >Corners.
> >
> >There once was an industry on the site of today's
> Holz Motors.  A Lumber
> >Company, perhaps, long gone before Speedrail.  Then, on
> the SW corner of
> >S. 108th Street (Hwy 100) and North Cape Road, was the
> site of Hales
> >Corners Lumber & Fuel.  They regularly received
> Hopper Cars of Coal over
> >there.  At Hillcrest (HC Loop) was a small Standard Oil
> facility, very
> >similar to that which stood at the wye in East Troy. 
> Plus  separate
> >lead track also led to the fence line of a former WEPCO
> Yard for Line
> >Poles and Line Hardware.  So, there was ample reason
> for the cars to
> >loop at Hillcrest.
> >
> >Furthermore, the 300, 301 cars had a smoking partition
> still in place
> >which was kept to the rear of the car.  Albeit, there
> was a no smoking
> >rule on Speedrail cars, no one removed this partition. 
> The Smoker
> >actually encompassed about 25% of the cars seatingl.  
> The number two
> >end of these cars saw little use.
> >
> >Don L.
> >
> >
> >ps:   During the rush hours, the Duplexes were pressed
> into service.
> >the 31-40 being used on the Waukesha Line.  41-46 were
> used in HC
> >service and the 47-50 trains were used in PSB-WJ
> service only.  The last
> >two trains did not get Field Tappers.           dll
> 
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^.
> "Let us put our minds together, and see what life we
> will make for 
> our children." ---Tatanka-Iyotanka (Sitting Bull)  ---
> Hunkpapa Lakota chief


From ktjosephson at embarqmail.com  Mon Feb  2 14:32:42 2009
From: ktjosephson at embarqmail.com (Ken and Tracie)
Date: Mon, 2 Feb 2009 11:32:42 -0800
Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: Hales Corners Terminal
References: <18244-49869C90-11147@storefull-3172.bay.webtv.net>
Message-ID: <2CDF26F7B90545089F2F914E2DD1CA1B@KTJosephson>

Thanks for the replies, guys.

I didn't forget about the industries. I was just wondering why they ran the 
double ended cars down to loop. You've answered the question. Thanks! BTW, 
did the "vinegar run" continue into Speedrail days?

If anybody wishes to write articles explaining these things, I'd be happy to 
post them on the web site.

K.

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Don L. Leistikow" <DLeistikow at webtv.net>
To: <milwaukee-electric at lists.dementia.org>
Sent: Sunday, February 01, 2009 11:11 PM
Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: Hales Corners Terminal


> Ken and list:   You're forgetting the online industries in Hales
> Corners.
>
> There once was an industry on the site of today's Holz Motors.  A Lumber
> Company, perhaps, long gone before Speedrail.  Then, on the SW corner of
> S. 108th Street (Hwy 100) and North Cape Road, was the site of Hales
> Corners Lumber & Fuel.  They regularly received Hopper Cars of Coal over
> there.  At Hillcrest (HC Loop) was a small Standard Oil facility, very
> similar to that which stood at the wye in East Troy.  Plus  separate
> lead track also led to the fence line of a former WEPCO Yard for Line
> Poles and Line Hardware.  So, there was ample reason for the cars to
> loop at Hillcrest.
>
> Furthermore, the 300, 301 cars had a smoking partition still in place
> which was kept to the rear of the car.  Albeit, there was a no smoking
> rule on Speedrail cars, no one removed this partition.  The Smoker
> actually encompassed about 25% of the cars seatingl.   The number two
> end of these cars saw little use.
>
> Don L.
>
>
> ps:   During the rush hours, the Duplexes were pressed into service.
> the 31-40 being used on the Waukesha Line.  41-46 were used in HC
> service and the 47-50 trains were used in PSB-WJ service only.  The last
> two trains did not get Field Tappers.           dll
>
> 



From DLeistikow at webtv.net  Mon Feb  2 19:42:28 2009
From: DLeistikow at webtv.net (Don L. Leistikow)
Date: Mon, 2 Feb 2009 18:42:28 -0600
Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: Hales Corners Terminal
In-Reply-To: "Ken and Tracie" <ktjosephson@embarqmail.com>'s message of Mon, 2 Feb 2009 11:32:42 -0800
Message-ID: <18246-498792F4-8668@storefull-3172.bay.webtv.net>

Ken and list:   Yes, the Vinegar Car business continued into Speedrail
days.     

The Van Holton Pickle Plant was located  off the northwest corner of
SunnySlope road and the RTLine.   With abandonement imminent, they moved
to Sun Prairie, on the Watertown - Madison branch.  The building at
SunnySlope Road, still stands.                                     

Don L.      



From sbgreig_m1 at yahoo.com  Mon Feb  2 22:35:44 2009
From: sbgreig_m1 at yahoo.com (Scott Greig)
Date: Mon, 2 Feb 2009 19:35:44 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: Hales Corners Terminal
In-Reply-To: <18246-498792F4-8668@storefull-3172.bay.webtv.net>
Message-ID: <300621.90598.qm@web65509.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>

I have been told that a then-fledgling Illinois Electric Railway Museum stripped out the remains of the Holton spur track for the?rail, and found an abandoned TM handcar on the stub.? Dunno what became of the rail, but the handcar is on display at IRM today.
--- On Mon, 2/2/09, Don L. Leistikow <DLeistikow at webtv.net> wrote:

From: Don L. Leistikow <DLeistikow at webtv.net>
Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: Hales Corners Terminal
To: milwaukee-electric at lists.dementia.org
Date: Monday, February 2, 2009, 6:42 PM

Ken and list:   Yes, the Vinegar Car business continued into Speedrail
days.     

The Van Holton Pickle Plant was located  off the northwest corner of
SunnySlope road and the RTLine.   With abandonement imminent, they moved
to Sun Prairie, on the Watertown - Madison branch.  The building at
SunnySlope Road, still stands.                                     

Don L.      





From sunrise at bikethehoan.com  Tue Feb  3 11:10:13 2009
From: sunrise at bikethehoan.com (Bill Sell)
Date: Tue, 03 Feb 2009 10:10:13 -0600
Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: Hales Corners Terminal
In-Reply-To: <300621.90598.qm@web65509.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
References: <18246-498792F4-8668@storefull-3172.bay.webtv.net>
 <300621.90598.qm@web65509.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20090203161016.DMIE26415.outaamta01.mail.tds.net@Hafiz.tds.net>

I remember the handcar. For a boy they looked like a big toy, but I 
think we were terrified of climbing on one.  Probably for what would 
happen to us after we get home.



At 09:35 PM 2/2/2009, Scott Greig wrote:
>I have been told that a then-fledgling Illinois Electric Railway 
>Museum stripped out the remains of the Holton spur track for the 
>rail, and found an abandoned TM handcar on the stub.  Dunno what 
>became of the rail, but the handcar is on display at IRM today.
>--- On Mon, 2/2/09, Don L. Leistikow <DLeistikow at webtv.net> wrote:
>
>From: Don L. Leistikow <DLeistikow at webtv.net>
>Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: Hales Corners Terminal
>To: milwaukee-electric at lists.dementia.org
>Date: Monday, February 2, 2009, 6:42 PM
>
>Ken and list:   Yes, the Vinegar Car business continued into Speedrail
>days.
>
>The Van Holton Pickle Plant was located  off the northwest corner of
>SunnySlope road and the RTLine.   With abandonement imminent, they moved
>to Sun Prairie, on the Watertown - Madison branch.  The building at
>SunnySlope Road, still stands.
>
>Don L.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^.
"Let us put our minds together, and see what life we will make for 
our children." ---Tatanka-Iyotanka (Sitting Bull)  --- Hunkpapa Lakota chief  




From sunrise at bikethehoan.com  Tue Feb  3 11:49:18 2009
From: sunrise at bikethehoan.com (Bill Sell)
Date: Tue, 03 Feb 2009 10:49:18 -0600
Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: Hales Corners Terminal
In-Reply-To: <332411.87705.qm@web65512.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
References: <20090202155024.MOEF4416.outaamta02.mail.tds.net@Hafiz.tds.net>
 <332411.87705.qm@web65512.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20090203164921.ZZNE4416.outaamta02.mail.tds.net@Hafiz.tds.net>

That's great. I have built a small, recent collection of my own from 
a current web site: http://www.thetransportco.com/
I'm sure you all know about that one.

Bill





At 10:05 AM 2/2/2009, you wrote:
>I have a picture of that oil facility.
>
>
>--- On Mon, 2/2/09, Bill Sell <sunrise at bikethehoan.com> wrote:
>
> > From: Bill Sell <sunrise at bikethehoan.com>
> > Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: Hales Corners Terminal
> > To: milwaukee-electric at lists.dementia.org
> > Date: Monday, February 2, 2009, 9:50 AM
> > I remember much of what you describe. We moved to Hales
> > Corners in
> > 1944. I was 5 and even remember the move. We used the rapid
> > transit
> > for the remaining years of its life.
> >
> > Somehow I connect that oil facility (at the turn around
> > loop) with a
> > cooperative, but I'm not clear what the purpose of the
> > cooperative
> > was. I do think they had something to do with the oil or
> > fuel storage
> > tanks, but I also remember once buying food there.  It did
> > not become
> > "our" store because others were closer to our
> > house on Forest
> > Home.  We lived across the triangle from the rapid transit
> > station,
> > which was a white and green four walled (not heated)
> > structure.  The
> > triangle had a historic inn (Senft's) and two or three
> > homes, before
> > Forest Home was widened, decimating the possibility of a
> > central
> > Hales Corners downtown. The town is all about cars now.  I
> > could go on....
> >
> > Bill Sell
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > At 01:11 AM 2/2/2009, Don L. Leistikow wrote:
> > >Ken and list:   You're forgetting the online
> > industries in Hales
> > >Corners.
> > >
> > >There once was an industry on the site of today's
> > Holz Motors.  A Lumber
> > >Company, perhaps, long gone before Speedrail.  Then, on
> > the SW corner of
> > >S. 108th Street (Hwy 100) and North Cape Road, was the
> > site of Hales
> > >Corners Lumber & Fuel.  They regularly received
> > Hopper Cars of Coal over
> > >there.  At Hillcrest (HC Loop) was a small Standard Oil
> > facility, very
> > >similar to that which stood at the wye in East Troy.
> > Plus  separate
> > >lead track also led to the fence line of a former WEPCO
> > Yard for Line
> > >Poles and Line Hardware.  So, there was ample reason
> > for the cars to
> > >loop at Hillcrest.
> > >
> > >Furthermore, the 300, 301 cars had a smoking partition
> > still in place
> > >which was kept to the rear of the car.  Albeit, there
> > was a no smoking
> > >rule on Speedrail cars, no one removed this partition.
> > The Smoker
> > >actually encompassed about 25% of the cars seatingl.
> > The number two
> > >end of these cars saw little use.
> > >
> > >Don L.
> > >
> > >
> > >ps:   During the rush hours, the Duplexes were pressed
> > into service.
> > >the 31-40 being used on the Waukesha Line.  41-46 were
> > used in HC
> > >service and the 47-50 trains were used in PSB-WJ
> > service only.  The last
> > >two trains did not get Field Tappers.           dll
> >
> > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^.
> > "Let us put our minds together, and see what life we
> > will make for
> > our children." ---Tatanka-Iyotanka (Sitting Bull)  ---
> > Hunkpapa Lakota chief

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^.
"Let us put our minds together, and see what life we will make for 
our children." ---Tatanka-Iyotanka (Sitting Bull)  --- Hunkpapa Lakota chief  




From x779 at webtv.net  Wed Feb  4 10:49:53 2009
From: x779 at webtv.net (Louis Rugani)
Date: Wed, 04 Feb 2009 15:49:53 GMT
Subject: [milwaukee-electric] KRM Line update:
Message-ID: <BAY137-DAV12A34CBCD9ADCE559CD5B098C30@phx.gbl>

Again, thanks to all for your invaluable support. The poll is at 92% positive and it was quoted last night at the Kenosha County Board meeting. The Kenosha County Board then voted 5-3 to support the KRM Line concept.




From x779 at webtv.net  Wed Feb 18 20:06:14 2009
From: x779 at webtv.net (mrcooby)
Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2009 01:06:14 -0000
Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Governor supports passenger rail.
Message-ID: <gniba6+d540@eGroups.com>

Doyle's budget proposal supports transportation

February 18, 2009
Gov. Jim Doyle on Tuesday warned that Wisconsin is facing its largest
budget cuts, but he also promised a boost for the state's
transportation system.


With Tuesday's passage of the American Recovery and Reinvestment
Plan, Doyle touted the ability to increase investment in the state's
transportation fund by 20 percent.

"We will be able to get to work on fixing bridges and roads," he
said during Tuesday's budget speech. "We will connect more of
Wisconsin with passenger rail."

As in his previous biennial budget proposal, Doyle said he wants to
secure money for state roads by taxing big oil companies.

"These companies make money when people drive on our roads, so it is
appropriate that they help maintain them," he said. "And we will
go after companies that break the law by passing that assessment on to
consumers."

But legislative opinion on the oil assessment proposal, which failed 
in
the last session, remained divided.

"If it passes, it's destined to go to court," said state
Rep. Jeff Stone, R-Greendale. "And that's a quarter of a million
dollars for transportation that the state doesn't get."

State Sen. Robert Jauch, D-Poplar, agreed the bill would probably be
challenged, and he said a court could rule companies can pass the
assessment to customers.

But he said it's also an idea worth trying.

"You can't balance a $5.7 billion budget deficit with cuts
alone," Jauch said. "If it was me, I might have proposed a
different set of tax increases, but they might not have had as much 
of a
chance to pass. (The oil assessment), I believe, can pass. You talk
about a five-cent gas tax increase, that's not going to pass."

Doyle also announced Tuesday his budget proposal lets, after several
years of debate, communities form regional transit authorities.

"If a region agrees to cooperate on building rail lines or
coordinating bus service," he said, "we can help make that
happen."

--- End forwarded message ---





From x779 at webtv.net  Sat Feb 21 01:37:33 2009
From: x779 at webtv.net (mrcooby)
Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2009 06:37:33 -0000
Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Vote in this poll on commuter rail:
Message-ID: <gno7fd+efk0@eGroups.com>

They ask if ridership would justify it.
http://www.dailyreporter.com/






From yance at oldmilwaukee.net  Sun Feb 22 10:21:33 2009
From: yance at oldmilwaukee.net (Y Marti)
Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2009 10:21:33 -0500
Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: Vote in this poll on commuter rail:
In-Reply-To: <gno7fd+efk0@eGroups.com>
References: <gno7fd+efk0@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20090222102133.362570iql0a5s6os@horde.oldmilwaukee.net>

God, that is a silly question. Ridership is obviously the end-all of  
justifications.

Quoting mrcooby <x779 at webtv.net>:

> They ask if ridership would justify it.
> http://www.dailyreporter.com/
>
>
>
>
>
>




From yance at oldmilwaukee.net  Mon Feb 23 13:00:29 2009
From: yance at oldmilwaukee.net (Y Marti)
Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2009 13:00:29 -0500
Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: Vote in this poll on commuter rail:
In-Reply-To: <20090222102133.362570iql0a5s6os@horde.oldmilwaukee.net>
References: <gno7fd+efk0@eGroups.com>
 <20090222102133.362570iql0a5s6os@horde.oldmilwaukee.net>
Message-ID: <20090223130029.912284fj4om4aekc@horde.oldmilwaukee.net>

Yes I understand the question and it's a pointless question or at best  
it is very poorly worded. When everything else is considered what  
would be the primary criteria of justifying an expenditure for a new  
transportation system? Obviously ridership. The question answers itself.

FYI, "ridership" is the quantity of riders. Any transportation system  
will have a ridership, it could be 100,000, it could be 1,000,000.  
There is a quantity where the ridership could justify the construction  
costs. There are several studies which quantify the ridership  
necessary to recoup construction costs from a pure economic analysis.

Of course, looking at government subsidized infrastructure alone,  
there is almost never an expectation to recoup those costs. Does a  
city decide not to build a road because they will never recoup the  
costs? In some cases, maybe but in general, no. The road is built to  
provide an economic benefit to the community. It is a conduit for  
people and products. Commuter rail offers the same options.

Quoting Y Marti <yance at oldmilwaukee.net>:

> God, that is a silly question. Ridership is obviously the end-all of
> justifications.
>
> Quoting mrcooby <x779 at webtv.net>:
>
>> They ask if ridership would justify it.
>> http://www.dailyreporter.com/
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From DLeistikow at webtv.net  Mon Feb 23 20:42:42 2009
From: DLeistikow at webtv.net (Don L. Leistikow)
Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2009 19:42:42 -0600
Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: Vote in this poll on commuter rail:
In-Reply-To: Y Marti <yance@oldmilwaukee.net>'s message of Mon, 23 Feb 2009
	13:00:29 -0500
Message-ID: <26904-49A35092-13486@storefull-3171.bay.webtv.net>

Y Marti and list:  Transit Engineers know that the quantity of ridership
is not the only measure of value to the construction of electric
railways.  Then, there is the variable of what is constructed, a street
railway, light rail line or commuter rail.      

What is well known, is that motor coach (buses) do not attract the
ridership, nor the inherent value to the neighborhoods which they
traverse.  The inherent value is the renewal of commercial businesses
that will locate on a rail line but, would not do so on motor coach
lines.  This application of the 'rule of thumb' is accurate with any of
the above three forms of electric railway operations.           

The example set forth by Kenosha's circular Civic Center loop, has
attracted the construction of housing and does touch the Metra Commuter
line on the west end.  Other than demonstrating the economics of and the
clean air contribution to the atmosphere, it has not generated strong
ridership due to its limited route and hours of service.             

The extension of the lline that will break the ring, will be designed to
operate into the uptown area and thus serve as the first step into
commercial and private home neighborhoods as a point to point
transportation service.  So, the inherent value to the Community at
large, is the increased interest in development of commerce and the
attraction of developers to build Condominiums and Apartment structures
that will enhance the property tax structure to the community.    

This doesn't happen along a motor coach line as, the mere operation of a
motor coach line will disappear if sufficient ridership is not present.
Milwaukee's shrinking motor coach routes are a clear indication of that
theorm.  Actually, Milwaukee County's persistant resistance to any form
of electric railway operation, is stifling the Central Business District
concept and, if allowed to continue, will surely result in the City
becoming nothing more than Bedroom Community to the advancing Chicago
and North Shore continuing expansion.                                

The City of Milwaukee does not need a replica of Kenosha's loop.  C of M
needs a point to point line that will serve not only the City and/or the
County but, a line that will serve the Metro area at large.  This should
be the construction of an LRT line which would serve the C of M
CBDistrict, departing city streets in the neighborhood of the Amtrak
Station and then serving the Casino and Miller Park on a private right
of way.  Of course, I am making reference to, the now abandoned Air
Line/West Allis Freight Line and continuing west to service the industry
and businesses now populating the former Allis-Chalmers property.  Stops
on that line would be made at 70th, 76th, 84th(State Fair Park), 92nd
and a long platform which would serve the Milwaukee County Zoo and 108th
street (Hwy 100).  Westward, the service could continue with a terminal
at Bluemound Road or continue into the Elm Grove Shopping Center.                            

Note that most of that private right of way is within the City of
Milwaukee limits and is of 100 feet in width; ample room for a double
track operation.  Of note;  the private right of ways of the Air Line
and the land formerly occupied by the Rapid Transit Lines to Hales
Corners and Waukesha, should be preserved for future expansion.
Therefore, the designs for the Zoo and Hale Interchange expansions, must
not compromise the ability to accomodate future electric rail Rapid
Transit services which will surely come as an extension of services at
the area of the former Schlinger Avenue RTL stop.           

So, commencing at Lake Michigan and moving west along Michigan and Fifth
streets to the Amtrak Station, would be on City streets.  Beyond the
Amtrak Station, the line would be of Rapid Transit design, built to
allow speeds of up to 75 mph, as did the old RTL of days past.  Yes,
that old line, developed way back in the 1920's, could and did achieve
speeds topping out at 75 mph.  (fwiw) I recall riding a car from the
Terminal at 3rd and Michigan Streets, riding for only six blocks on City
Streets before entering the private right of way then, without stopping
rode to 68th Street in only Seven (7) minutes.       

You cannot do that today!   The Freeway killed that prime service (third
fastest in the Nation)...... and;                                  

There is nothing Free, about the Freeway! 

Don L. Leistikow   



From x779 at webtv.net  Fri Feb 27 13:39:52 2009
From: x779 at webtv.net (Louis Rugani)
Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2009 18:39:52 GMT
Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Commuter Rail poll:
Message-ID: <BAY137-DAV1208C1455F06D6B33F58098AA0@phx.gbl>

Thank you again, everybody! We're 72% to the good.
http://www.dailyreporter.com/poll/index.cfm?fuseaction=results&pollID=4456