From x779 at webtv.net Tue Mar 10 13:16:44 2009 From: x779 at webtv.net (mrcooby) Date: Tue, 10 Mar 2009 17:16:44 -0000 Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Light rail ridership is up 4% - Kenosha is up 5%. Message-ID: APTA has released the latest ridership statistics through Dec. 8. Transit ridership is up about 4%, and Kenosha is up 5%. Light Rail ridership is up, and in some systems up significantly. The only major system to lose ridership has been Boston, slightly over 1% down. Galveston had a 100% loss because Hurricane Ike destroyed the island and their bus system still isn't running either. San Diego was down 2.2% because of significant economic problems in the area and more difficult border-crossing delays which had an effect on their entire metro area ridership. http://www.apta.com/research/stats/ridership/riderep/documents/08q4lr.pdf (They indicate data is slightly different from FTA because of different reporting dates.) From x779 at webtv.net Fri Mar 13 19:38:33 2009 From: x779 at webtv.net (mrcooby) Date: Fri, 13 Mar 2009 23:38:33 -0000 Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Milwaukee streetcar engineering to begin this fall. Message-ID: Preliminary engineering can begin this year for the plan to build a downtown Milwaukee streetcar system because a U.S. spending bill dedicated $54.9 million to the project. The money will come from $91.5 million in federal money for transportation projects in Milwaukee County. Scott Walker, Milwaukee County executive, criticized the decision to spend any money on the streetcar rail system, saying the federal cash should go toward new high-speed bus routes. The federal budget bill signed last week dedicates the remaining $36.6 million to Milwaukee County buses. The federal decision wipes out a 1999 agreement between former Milwaukee County Executive Tom Ament, former Milwaukee Mayor John Norquist and former Gov. Tommy Thompson that said the $91.5 million would not be spent unless all three executive offices agreed on the project. Patrick Curley, Milwaukee Mayor Tom Barrett's chief of staff, said the mayor lobbied Wisconsin's Congressional delegates to dedicate the money because of local disagreements over how it should be spent. He said the federal money will cover a good portion of the streetcar system's construction costs, but he said he will not know how much more money will be necessary until the preliminary engineering work is complete. "We are now on firm ground," Curley said. "We are out of the quagmire and standing on terra firma." The proposed streetcar would run in a square made up of St. Paul Avenue, Fourth Street, Juneau Avenue and Van Buren Street. Walker said the streetcar system will need $3 million in state transit money each year for operating costs, and the money will come out of the county bus system's share of state money. He said the federal move means he cannot derail the streetcar project. "At this point, we won't have any role at all, period," he said. "It's completely wiped out by this federal action." Walker said he will use the county's $36.6 million cut of the federal money to run a bus line from the Milwaukee County Grounds in Wauwatosa, along Wisconsin Avenue to Prospect Avenue and north to the University of Wisconsin-Milwaukee campus. He said the new bus line will connect the proposed UW-Milwaukee engineering campus in Wauwatosa to the main university campus. Curley said the city should tap into the proposed Southeastern Wisconsin Regional Transit Authority, which could levy a sales tax, to support the streetcar system. "We would like to be part of the RTA," he said. "This should be no different from any other system." ===from Lou Rugani From yance at oldmilwaukee.net Sat Mar 14 20:44:43 2009 From: yance at oldmilwaukee.net (Y Marti) Date: Sat, 14 Mar 2009 20:44:43 -0400 Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: Milwaukee streetcar engineering to begin this fall. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20090314204443.24221uys2scg7jpc@horde.oldmilwaukee.net> Now all I need to do is to brush up on rail design and I'll have plenty of work to keep me busy for the next couple of years. I'm looking forward to ebing involved in some way with the design. This is groundbreaking. Quoting mrcooby : > Preliminary engineering can begin this year for the plan to build a > downtown Milwaukee streetcar system because a U.S. spending bill > dedicated $54.9 million to the project. > > The money will come from $91.5 million in federal money for > transportation projects in Milwaukee County. Scott Walker, Milwaukee > County executive, criticized the decision to spend any money on the > streetcar rail system, saying the federal cash should go toward new > high-speed bus routes. > > The federal budget bill signed last week dedicates the remaining > $36.6 million to Milwaukee County buses. The federal decision wipes > out a 1999 agreement between former Milwaukee County Executive Tom > Ament, former Milwaukee Mayor John Norquist and former Gov. Tommy > Thompson that said the $91.5 million would not be spent unless all > three executive offices agreed on the project. > > Patrick Curley, Milwaukee Mayor Tom Barrett's chief of staff, said > the mayor lobbied Wisconsin's Congressional delegates to dedicate > the money because of local disagreements over how it should be > spent. He said the federal money will cover a good portion of the > streetcar system's construction costs, but he said he will not know > how much more money will be necessary until the preliminary > engineering work is complete. > > "We are now on firm ground," Curley said. "We are out of the > quagmire and standing on terra firma." > > The proposed streetcar would run in a square made up of St. Paul > Avenue, Fourth Street, Juneau Avenue and Van Buren Street. > > Walker said the streetcar system will need $3 million in state > transit money each year for operating costs, and the money will come > out of the county bus system's share of state money. He said the > federal move means he cannot derail the streetcar project. > > "At this point, we won't have any role at all, period," he said. > "It's completely wiped out by this federal action." > > Walker said he will use the county's $36.6 million cut of the > federal money to run a bus line from the Milwaukee County Grounds in > Wauwatosa, along Wisconsin Avenue to Prospect Avenue and north to > the University of Wisconsin-Milwaukee campus. He said the new bus > line will connect the proposed UW-Milwaukee engineering campus in > Wauwatosa to the main university campus. > > Curley said the city should tap into the proposed Southeastern > Wisconsin Regional Transit Authority, which could levy a sales tax, > to support the streetcar system. > > "We would like to be part of the RTA," he said. "This should be no > different from any other system." > > ===from Lou Rugani > > > > From tr2manz at frontiernet.net Sun Mar 15 11:33:03 2009 From: tr2manz at frontiernet.net (Thomas Manz) Date: Sun, 15 Mar 2009 11:33:03 -0400 Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: Milwaukee streetcar engineering to begin this fall. In-Reply-To: <20090314204443.24221uys2scg7jpc@horde.oldmilwaukee.net> References: <20090314204443.24221uys2scg7jpc@horde.oldmilwaukee.net> Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Y Marti" To: Sent: Saturday, March 14, 2009 8:44 PM Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: Milwaukee streetcar engineering to begin this fall. >> ...The proposed streetcar would run in a square made up of St. Paul >> Avenue, Fourth Street, Juneau Avenue and Van Buren Street... Fourth Street from St. Paul to Juneau? Is that possible? From rmadisonwi at gmail.com Sun Mar 15 11:56:44 2009 From: rmadisonwi at gmail.com (Robert Madison) Date: Sun, 15 Mar 2009 10:56:44 -0500 Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: Milwaukee streetcar engineering to begin this fall. In-Reply-To: References: <20090314204443.24221uys2scg7jpc@horde.oldmilwaukee.net> Message-ID: <49BD253C.2020406@gmail.com> Thomas Manz wrote: > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Y Marti" > To: > Sent: Saturday, March 14, 2009 8:44 PM > Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: Milwaukee streetcar engineering to begin > this fall. > > >>> ...The proposed streetcar would run in a square made up of St. Paul >>> Avenue, Fourth Street, Juneau Avenue and Van Buren Street... >>> > > Fourth Street from St. Paul to Juneau? Is that possible? > Unless something has changed in the past couple of years, it should be possible. Fourth Street runs all the way up. Many years ago, the route 57 bus used to travel on 4th St. from St. Paul all the way to Walnut Street (I think that routing changed about 1990 or so). From ktjosephson at embarqmail.com Sun Mar 15 12:40:33 2009 From: ktjosephson at embarqmail.com (Ken and Tracie) Date: Sun, 15 Mar 2009 09:40:33 -0700 Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: Milwaukee streetcar engineering to begin this fall. References: <20090314204443.24221uys2scg7jpc@horde.oldmilwaukee.net> Message-ID: <3073E5FB86134C11872658D0494CC75E@KTJosephson> I don't mean to offend anybody, but I find this proposed Milwaukee streetcar line disappointing This line appears to serve NO purpose! Why not just visit Kenosha or East Troy to ride streetcars? This is a waste of money. Girdling the essentially irrelevant Downtown with a car line that goes nowhere? Do I support a light rail line between potential riders and a popular destination? Makes sense to me. Light rail from the suburbs to an active business district, university, arena, stadium and/or mall? Absolutely! But circling the outer perimeter of what is no longer a vibrant center of consumerism or civic activity? Ridiculous! Riders may prefer rail to rubber, but I believe a one seat ride trumps all. What are the planners going to do? Force transfers to the streetcars and perhaps alienate bus riders? The charm and ambience of a streetcar may be the tipping point for fans like us, but to John Q. Public, an enclosed mall during winter wins every time. Starter lines ought be like the ones built in Portland, San Diego or Calgary. K. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Y Marti" To: Sent: Saturday, March 14, 2009 5:44 PM Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: Milwaukee streetcar engineering to begin this fall. > Now all I need to do is to brush up on rail design and I'll have > plenty of work to keep me busy for the next couple of years. I'm > looking forward to ebing involved in some way with the design. This is > groundbreaking. > > Quoting mrcooby : > >> Preliminary engineering can begin this year for the plan to build a >> downtown Milwaukee streetcar system because a U.S. spending bill >> dedicated $54.9 million to the project. >> >> The money will come from $91.5 million in federal money for >> transportation projects in Milwaukee County. Scott Walker, Milwaukee >> County executive, criticized the decision to spend any money on the >> streetcar rail system, saying the federal cash should go toward new >> high-speed bus routes. >> >> The federal budget bill signed last week dedicates the remaining >> $36.6 million to Milwaukee County buses. The federal decision wipes >> out a 1999 agreement between former Milwaukee County Executive Tom >> Ament, former Milwaukee Mayor John Norquist and former Gov. Tommy >> Thompson that said the $91.5 million would not be spent unless all >> three executive offices agreed on the project. >> >> Patrick Curley, Milwaukee Mayor Tom Barrett's chief of staff, said >> the mayor lobbied Wisconsin's Congressional delegates to dedicate >> the money because of local disagreements over how it should be >> spent. He said the federal money will cover a good portion of the >> streetcar system's construction costs, but he said he will not know >> how much more money will be necessary until the preliminary >> engineering work is complete. >> >> "We are now on firm ground," Curley said. "We are out of the >> quagmire and standing on terra firma." >> >> The proposed streetcar would run in a square made up of St. Paul >> Avenue, Fourth Street, Juneau Avenue and Van Buren Street. >> >> Walker said the streetcar system will need $3 million in state >> transit money each year for operating costs, and the money will come >> out of the county bus system's share of state money. He said the >> federal move means he cannot derail the streetcar project. >> >> "At this point, we won't have any role at all, period," he said. >> "It's completely wiped out by this federal action." >> >> Walker said he will use the county's $36.6 million cut of the >> federal money to run a bus line from the Milwaukee County Grounds in >> Wauwatosa, along Wisconsin Avenue to Prospect Avenue and north to >> the University of Wisconsin-Milwaukee campus. He said the new bus >> line will connect the proposed UW-Milwaukee engineering campus in >> Wauwatosa to the main university campus. >> >> Curley said the city should tap into the proposed Southeastern >> Wisconsin Regional Transit Authority, which could levy a sales tax, >> to support the streetcar system. >> >> "We would like to be part of the RTA," he said. "This should be no >> different from any other system." >> >> ===from Lou Rugani >> >> >> >> > > > From rmadisonwi at gmail.com Sun Mar 15 13:22:42 2009 From: rmadisonwi at gmail.com (Robert Madison) Date: Sun, 15 Mar 2009 12:22:42 -0500 Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: Milwaukee streetcar engineering to begin this fall. In-Reply-To: <3073E5FB86134C11872658D0494CC75E@KTJosephson> References: <20090314204443.24221uys2scg7jpc@horde.oldmilwaukee.net> <3073E5FB86134C11872658D0494CC75E@KTJosephson> Message-ID: <49BD3962.1010506@gmail.com> Ken and Tracie wrote: > I don't mean to offend anybody, but I find this proposed Milwaukee streetcar > line disappointing > > This line appears to serve NO purpose! Why not just visit Kenosha or East > Troy to ride > streetcars? > > This is a waste of money. Girdling the essentially irrelevant Downtown with > a car line that goes nowhere? > > Do I support a light rail line between potential riders and a popular > destination? Makes sense to me. Light rail from the suburbs to an active > business district, university, arena, stadium and/or mall? Absolutely! But > circling the outer perimeter of what is no longer a vibrant center of > consumerism or civic activity? Ridiculous! > > Riders may prefer rail to rubber, but I believe a one seat ride trumps all. > What are the planners going to do? Force transfers to the streetcars and > perhaps alienate bus riders? > > The charm and ambience of a streetcar may be the tipping point for fans like > us, but to John Q. Public, an enclosed mall during winter wins every time. > > Starter lines ought be like the ones built in Portland, San Diego or > Calgary. > > K. > It depends on what else they have planned for the area. The current economic downturn notwithstanding, the edges of downtown were starting to convert more to mixed-use development (residential/commercial). I moved out of Milwaukee in 2006, but still keep my finger on the local pulse every now and then. When I left, they were still debating what to do with the old Pabst Brewery site, and how to use all the land reclaimed from the destruction of that useless Park-East freeway. If they can actually get some good development (and I'll admit, I don't know what the current status of any of those projects are, perhaps someone can let me know what's happened recently), then this streetcar line will be a great centerpiece to the revitalization of the area. Right before I left Milwaukee, I lived at State & Cass, which would be just a block away from the proposed route. I was going to UWM at the time, and, granted, this service wouldn't go there (but you can't get everything, at least not right away), but it would have been very convenient for my trips into the main part of downtown. The bigger shame is that they didn't tear down I-794, like some had proposed (including, I believe, former mayor Norquist). Then they could have reclaimed even more valuable land, and perhaps run the streetcar right down the middle of the new right of way. Passenger rail is going to take a more important role in the future of the region, and Milwaukee's Amtrak Station is separated from downtown by that monstrosity that they just rebuilt. The streetcar link will certainly be more inviting to the public coming from the train station than walking underneath the freeway. I think this is the right move, for several reasons. First, it finally breaks the "no-rail" barrier that has infected Milwaukee's thinking for decades. It circumvents Scott Walker, who is only pretending to support the express bus service because he realizes it's the only way he could have avoided having rail (where was his support for the bus service from 2002 until 2007 or so?). It's not just Walker personally, but the entire political establishment in the region which seems hell bent on screwing the city and preventing any good transit from ever being built. When people see how nice the ride is, they'll want expansion. Another reason I think this is a good idea is that it gives Milwaukee some sort of footing for what might happen in the future. As energy costs escalate, oil supplies dwindle, and the whole unsustainable economic system that encourages long-distance commuting continues to fall, cities will need to physically shrink in order to survive. We seriously can't afford all of the infrastructure that we have in this country, and what will have to happen is that we will have to choose between having good quality infrastructure that is limited in the area it serves, or overextending our resources by trying to serve every possible corner. This will be made much easier as mixed-use development continues to expand, which means that people's worlds can shrink, and they won't need to travel very far to get to where they need to go. Instead of having the light rail serve the suburbs, the goal ought to be to encourage people to leave the suburbs and return to the city. If there is a part of your note that I will agree with, it's that the line ought to be expanded (or, at least, make provisions for expansion) to UWM and Marquette. Expanding northeast to UWM would serve more of the most densely populated part of the city. Going west to Marquette would not only serve that school, but also provide a link to the other part of downtown. I don't think it's worth it to serve an "arena, stadium, and/or mall," unless those facilities just happen to be along the route (which the Bradley Center is, for whatever life that place has left). One of my biggest complaints about the initial Milwaukee Conenctor routing was that it basically dead-ended at Miller Park, which is used all of 81 times per year. The rest of the time, the trains/cars/buses/trams/whatever would be going there empty. There's nothing else nearby to attract ridership, because the stadium is pretty much in the middle of nowhere, surrounded on two sides by freeways, and (IIRC) on one side by a cemetery, and one side by the VA grounds (and that's after you walk through the ginormous parking lots to get there). Shopping malls haven't exactly been a great story of economic success, either. Northridge, Capitol Court, Southgate, etc. all died in the 1990s (or, in the case of Northridge, I believe early 2000s) despite being conveniently located and having pretty good transit access as well. Last time I was there, there wasn't much left of Grand Avenue (in the middle of downtown, and along the proposed streetcar route). Everything else is way out in the suburbs, where it would be very expensive to build a line to serve them. Bayshore was just rebuilt to be super car-friendly and very transit-unfriendly. None of the other shopping malls in the area seem to want to be particularly transit-friendly either. Long story short, I think this streetcar line will be fine, provided the development at the north end of the route gets done properly. From ktjosephson at embarqmail.com Sun Mar 15 14:07:09 2009 From: ktjosephson at embarqmail.com (Ken and Tracie) Date: Sun, 15 Mar 2009 11:07:09 -0700 Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: Milwaukee streetcar engineering to begin this fall. References: <20090314204443.24221uys2scg7jpc@horde.oldmilwaukee.net> <3073E5FB86134C11872658D0494CC75E@KTJosephson> <49BD3962.1010506@gmail.com> Message-ID: <88747F6573CB4E328AC69AC86DBDB2B7@KTJosephson> Good counterpoints, Robert. I want people to think about what's best rather than cheer the return of electric traction to Milwaukee. We don't need any flops to give the Wendell Cox crowd any nails to drive into light rail's coffin. My family always preferred the old vibrant Downtown of the 1950s and '60s as well as the once successful business area centered around 27th & Fond du Lac. And we lived across the street from Capitol Court! And we were all mass transit users. I believe a major reason both Northridge and Capitol Court died was because of Milwaukee's age old distrust and contempt between Whites and African-Americans. That is not a very eloquent way to put it, but the Whites tend to be a blockbuster's delight once African-Americans move into formerly all White areas. Many Milwaukee African-Americans do not wish to make the remaining Whites feel welcome. I am from a racially blended family and I lived in Milwaukee for the first twenty five years of my life. The hatred and mistrust between these two groups was, and often is, horrible. I now live in a racially diverse Las Vegas suburb and have seen so much social progress. Las Vegas was once known as "the Mississippi of the West." Whenever I visit Milwaukee, it's still the same old nonsense. Racism will never go away completely, but Milwaukee area politicians seem to thrive on fanning the flames. I bring the above up because it is social component few people wish to discuss. In Los Angeles, expansion of the light rail network was opposed by some so-called "Black activists" who claimed extensions into White areas whose residents are more prone to driving themselves wastes funds that could be put to better use by putting more buses on the streets for racial minorities who don't drive. But I thought the problem in L.A. was that everybody drives. I know the Downtown Streetcar Circulator in Portland is a success. I wish Milwaukee the best. I also felt this could be a "foot in the door" line, but I was hoping for a more of a private right of way line between residential neighborhoods and where the residents work and shop. So let's have a healthy debate! Let's ask present day Milwaukeeans where they believe the starter line should be built and why. K. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Robert Madison" To: Sent: Sunday, March 15, 2009 10:22 AM Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: Milwaukee streetcar engineering to begin this fall. > Ken and Tracie wrote: >> I don't mean to offend anybody, but I find this proposed Milwaukee >> streetcar >> line disappointing >> >> This line appears to serve NO purpose! Why not just visit Kenosha or East >> Troy to ride >> streetcars? >> >> This is a waste of money. Girdling the essentially irrelevant Downtown >> with >> a car line that goes nowhere? >> >> Do I support a light rail line between potential riders and a popular >> destination? Makes sense to me. Light rail from the suburbs to an active >> business district, university, arena, stadium and/or mall? Absolutely! >> But >> circling the outer perimeter of what is no longer a vibrant center of >> consumerism or civic activity? Ridiculous! >> >> Riders may prefer rail to rubber, but I believe a one seat ride trumps >> all. >> What are the planners going to do? Force transfers to the streetcars and >> perhaps alienate bus riders? >> >> The charm and ambience of a streetcar may be the tipping point for fans >> like >> us, but to John Q. Public, an enclosed mall during winter wins every >> time. >> >> Starter lines ought be like the ones built in Portland, San Diego or >> Calgary. >> >> K. >> > > It depends on what else they have planned for the area. The current > economic downturn notwithstanding, the edges of downtown were starting > to convert more to mixed-use development (residential/commercial). > > I moved out of Milwaukee in 2006, but still keep my finger on the local > pulse every now and then. When I left, they were still debating what to > do with the old Pabst Brewery site, and how to use all the land > reclaimed from the destruction of that useless Park-East freeway. If > they can actually get some good development (and I'll admit, I don't > know what the current status of any of those projects are, perhaps > someone can let me know what's happened recently), then this streetcar > line will be a great centerpiece to the revitalization of the area. > Right before I left Milwaukee, I lived at State & Cass, which would be > just a block away from the proposed route. I was going to UWM at the > time, and, granted, this service wouldn't go there (but you can't get > everything, at least not right away), but it would have been very > convenient for my trips into the main part of downtown. > > The bigger shame is that they didn't tear down I-794, like some had > proposed (including, I believe, former mayor Norquist). Then they could > have reclaimed even more valuable land, and perhaps run the streetcar > right down the middle of the new right of way. > > Passenger rail is going to take a more important role in the future of > the region, and Milwaukee's Amtrak Station is separated from downtown by > that monstrosity that they just rebuilt. The streetcar link will > certainly be more inviting to the public coming from the train station > than walking underneath the freeway. > > I think this is the right move, for several reasons. First, it finally > breaks the "no-rail" barrier that has infected Milwaukee's thinking for > decades. It circumvents Scott Walker, who is only pretending to support > the express bus service because he realizes it's the only way he could > have avoided having rail (where was his support for the bus service from > 2002 until 2007 or so?). It's not just Walker personally, but the > entire political establishment in the region which seems hell bent on > screwing the city and preventing any good transit from ever being > built. When people see how nice the ride is, they'll want expansion. > > Another reason I think this is a good idea is that it gives Milwaukee > some sort of footing for what might happen in the future. As energy > costs escalate, oil supplies dwindle, and the whole unsustainable > economic system that encourages long-distance commuting continues to > fall, cities will need to physically shrink in order to survive. We > seriously can't afford all of the infrastructure that we have in this > country, and what will have to happen is that we will have to choose > between having good quality infrastructure that is limited in the area > it serves, or overextending our resources by trying to serve every > possible corner. > > This will be made much easier as mixed-use development continues to > expand, which means that people's worlds can shrink, and they won't need > to travel very far to get to where they need to go. Instead of having > the light rail serve the suburbs, the goal ought to be to encourage > people to leave the suburbs and return to the city. > > If there is a part of your note that I will agree with, it's that the > line ought to be expanded (or, at least, make provisions for expansion) > to UWM and Marquette. Expanding northeast to UWM would serve more of > the most densely populated part of the city. Going west to Marquette > would not only serve that school, but also provide a link to the other > part of downtown. I don't think it's worth it to serve an "arena, > stadium, and/or mall," unless those facilities just happen to be along > the route (which the Bradley Center is, for whatever life that place has > left). > > One of my biggest complaints about the initial Milwaukee Conenctor > routing was that it basically dead-ended at Miller Park, which is used > all of 81 times per year. The rest of the time, the > trains/cars/buses/trams/whatever would be going there empty. There's > nothing else nearby to attract ridership, because the stadium is pretty > much in the middle of nowhere, surrounded on two sides by freeways, and > (IIRC) on one side by a cemetery, and one side by the VA grounds (and > that's after you walk through the ginormous parking lots to get there). > Shopping malls haven't exactly been a great story of economic success, > either. Northridge, Capitol Court, Southgate, etc. all died in the > 1990s (or, in the case of Northridge, I believe early 2000s) despite > being conveniently located and having pretty good transit access as > well. Last time I was there, there wasn't much left of Grand Avenue (in > the middle of downtown, and along the proposed streetcar route). > Everything else is way out in the suburbs, where it would be very > expensive to build a line to serve them. > > Bayshore was just rebuilt to be super car-friendly and very > transit-unfriendly. None of the other shopping malls in the area seem > to want to be particularly transit-friendly either. > > Long story short, I think this streetcar line will be fine, provided the > development at the north end of the route gets done properly. > From DLeistikow at webtv.net Sun Mar 15 17:05:11 2009 From: DLeistikow at webtv.net (Don L. Leistikow) Date: Sun, 15 Mar 2009 16:05:11 -0500 Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: Milwaukee streetcar engineering to begin this fall. In-Reply-To: "Ken and Tracie" 's message of Sun, 15 Mar 2009 09:40:33 -0700 Message-ID: <22157-49BD6D87-725@storefull-3172.bay.webtv.net> Ken J and list: Ed Wilkommen and I have long lobbied for a practical 'streetcar' line. Our proposal is based upon the now abandoned Air Line/West Allis Line private right of way which is available from the west end of the former Air Line Yard (approximately 40th street) westward serving Miller Park, Soldiers Home/VA, and stops at Hawley, former A-C Business Park, 70th, 76th, State Fair Park/84th, 92nd, Zoo/108th, 116th and ending at Bluemound Road or... the Elm Grove Shopping Mall. Eastward, a stop at the Potawotomi Casino and the Amrtak Station. This leg to could be surface based of elevated. Eastward, beyond the Amtrak Station, the line would use 5th street to Michigan thence, east to the Lakefront, backboning Wisconsin Avenue. Rolling stock would be of the LRT variety, suitable for street running and speeds up to 70mph for private right of way operations. Not generally understood is the definition of the forms of passenger rail transportation. They are trains(Amtrak) then: Communter services; such as the former Watertown Cannonball, which made all local stops between Milwaukee and Watertown, i.e., Wauwatosa, Elm Grove, Pewaukee, Nashotah.... etc.. LRT(light rail transit).. Slightly smaller rolling stock, equipped with multiple unit connections (ala NorthShore style) with the same capability of high speeds on private right of way and able to mix with traffic in local street running. Streetcars: Designed for street running with moderate speeds of up to 40 mph, using mainly single car units and making local street stops set at two city blocks apart. The proposed downtown loop may find some local traffic but, will mainly be restricted to short line services. Some occassional transfering passengers may be found during the rush hours. It should be noted that the average transit passenger will embrace transfering once but, those who may be willing to make more than one transfer enroute are, few and far between. Like the Kenosha streetcar loop, its value is of introducing streetcars to a community. Advantages are that of lower cost of operation per passenger. This is enhanced by the clean air, non polluting form of vehicle. Additional advantages are the attraction to a transit line which will be there in the foreseeable future. This relates to commercial development and apartment/condominium living spaces providing residential development that will then be reflected in taxable property income for the City and County. Motor Coach lines do nothing to enhance development and are shunned by most of the commercial and residential developers as; given the choice of riding a bus or.. using ones own automobile, the latter is the usual choice. Vehicle emissions are a detriment to housing on those bus routes. Professional Transit Engineers have the financial figures which prove the above statements. Tom Rubin, a consultant that visited Milwaukee recently, is well known to me as I did challange him via the internet Group, 'Transport Policy', several years ago. TR is/was based in Los Angeles, which was a long time holdout against electric rail transit. Although he was a member of the group which finally brought about the first of LA's electric rail transit operations, he has been a devout supporter of Motor Coach services. Edson L. Tennyson, a highly recognised Professional Transit Engineer has quoted that the cost per passenger when riding electric rail transit services is some 20 cents less per mile than the cost per passenger via Motor Coach (bus) service. Although the initial investment is higher going in, the length of operation is twice as long, or more, before major replacement becomes necessary. I belive that I am quoting Ed Tennyson's figures, accurately. Furthermore, a 100 foot private right of way is more than adequate for LRT operations and will or can provide services of some 400 seats per train on a private right of way. Such trains can be fielded on as little as a two minute headway. City street ops may limit the number of cars or length of a train. Back about 1940, I rode a westbound Rapid Transit car from 3rd & Michigan streets. With six blocks of street running to achive the private right of way, I rode non-stop to 68th street, in seven minutes, flat. You cannot do that today! We need to go back, to the future! Don L. Leistikow From DLeistikow at webtv.net Sun Mar 15 17:15:01 2009 From: DLeistikow at webtv.net (Don L. Leistikow) Date: Sun, 15 Mar 2009 16:15:01 -0500 Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: Milwaukee streetcar engineering to begin this fall. In-Reply-To: Robert Madison 's message of Sun, 15 Mar 2009 12:22:42 -0500 Message-ID: <22160-49BD6FD5-546@storefull-3172.bay.webtv.net> Robert Madison: Good report and thoughts. fwiw..... I recently read that some thirty Super Oil Tankers loaded full, are sitting at anchor world-wide, waiting for sales of the cargo. Don L. From yance at oldmilwaukee.net Sun Mar 15 12:04:21 2009 From: yance at oldmilwaukee.net (Y Marti) Date: Sun, 15 Mar 2009 12:04:21 -0400 Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: Milwaukee streetcar engineering to begin this fall. In-Reply-To: References: <20090314204443.24221uys2scg7jpc@horde.oldmilwaukee.net> Message-ID: <20090315120421.12981le2vr7won40@horde.oldmilwaukee.net> Of course. Wells to Juneau has a boulevard which has plenty of width. Wells to St Paul has width if on street parking was taken away. The stretch from Wells to Michigan has extra ROW on the west which can be had if it comes down to it, except where the parking structure exists on the NW corner @ Michigan. Fourth street generally has low traffic volumes anyway. The ideal would be to lay a single track off the west curb line from St Paul to Wells and then continuing on a straight line it would take the southbound inside lane along the boulevard. In that case you would only need to get rid of the parking on the west side of the street. > > Fourth Street from St. Paul to Juneau? Is that possible? > > > From x779 at webtv.net Mon Mar 16 12:49:40 2009 From: x779 at webtv.net (Louis Rugani) Date: Mon, 16 Mar 2009 16:49:40 GMT Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Milwaukee streetcar engineering to begin this fall. Message-ID: Congratulations to Milwaukee. This is a major victory over Milwaukee's rabid anti-railer Scott Walker. The way this grant is structured, there is absolutely nothing Walker can do to kill it, the way he managed to squander over $200 million in the earlier streetcar grant twenty years ago with his constant bickering, now all lost and whittled away except for the last $90-some million. =Lou= ~~~~~~~~~~ **-=\/=-** ~~~~~~~~~~ The opposite of bravery is not cowardice, but conformity.  Robert Anthony From yance at oldmilwaukee.net Mon Mar 16 13:01:38 2009 From: yance at oldmilwaukee.net (Y Marti) Date: Mon, 16 Mar 2009 13:01:38 -0400 Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: Milwaukee streetcar engineering to begin this fall. In-Reply-To: <3073E5FB86134C11872658D0494CC75E@KTJosephson> References: <20090314204443.24221uys2scg7jpc@horde.oldmilwaukee.net> <3073E5FB86134C11872658D0494CC75E@KTJosephson> Message-ID: <20090316130138.97665d2zdtet5cz4@horde.oldmilwaukee.net> Commuter rail and a KRM link in the near future is starting to look like a done deal. The only problem is that it needs a viable link which MCTS does not provide. It also has a ridership which is completely separate from the ridership of MCTS. Whereas MCTS efficiently serves the local population for their needs, it would do a poor job serving commuters and visitors from outlying cities for their needs. They will need a reliable, simple, and convenient link to downtown hotels, venues, and events. The biggest problem for visitors arriving by rail at the Inter Modal Station is getting to hotels with their luggage. While taxis can do the job, the majority of visitors prefer public transport which can accomodate them. Any time I visit another city I check first to see what train or bus I can take to the center. Have you ever tried to take a suitcase on a MCTS bus? It sucks and there is no room for it except to block the aisles. Carrying any bags or even shopping is awful on MCTS. There are no foldable seats and there are no overhead racks. The aisles are too narrow to wheel a standard suitcase without bumping into legs at each seat. I am a regular commuter on MCTS and it works relatively well for what it does but it would not work for commuters or visitors. Currently the only line which serves the Inter Modal Station is the #57 which goes down Michigan to Water and north on Water. That's a poor line for visitors or commuters. A downtown loop serving many hotels, businesses, and venues makes 100% more sense. A line which can more easily accomodate laden down visitors makes 100% more sense. Quoting Ken and Tracie : > I don't mean to offend anybody, but I find this proposed Milwaukee streetcar > line disappointing > > This line appears to serve NO purpose! Why not just visit Kenosha or East > Troy to ride > streetcars? > > This is a waste of money. Girdling the essentially irrelevant Downtown with > a car line that goes nowhere? > > Do I support a light rail line between potential riders and a popular > destination? Makes sense to me. Light rail from the suburbs to an active > business district, university, arena, stadium and/or mall? Absolutely! But > circling the outer perimeter of what is no longer a vibrant center of > consumerism or civic activity? Ridiculous! > > Riders may prefer rail to rubber, but I believe a one seat ride trumps all. > What are the planners going to do? Force transfers to the streetcars and > perhaps alienate bus riders? > > The charm and ambience of a streetcar may be the tipping point for fans like > us, but to John Q. Public, an enclosed mall during winter wins every time. > > Starter lines ought be like the ones built in Portland, San Diego or > Calgary. > > K. > > From jdl896 at yahoo.com Tue Mar 17 19:20:27 2009 From: jdl896 at yahoo.com (jdl896 at yahoo.com) Date: Tue, 17 Mar 2009 16:20:27 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: Milwaukee streetcar engineering to begin this fall. In-Reply-To: <88747F6573CB4E328AC69AC86DBDB2B7@KTJosephson> Message-ID: <985897.43714.qm@web81901.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- On Sun, 3/15/09, Ken and Tracie wrote: > From: Ken and Tracie > Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: Milwaukee streetcar engineering to begin this fall. > To: milwaukee-electric at lists.dementia.org > Date: Sunday, March 15, 2009, 1:07 PM > Good counterpoints, Robert. I want people to think about > what's best rather > than cheer the return of electric traction to Milwaukee. We > don't need any > flops to give the Wendell Cox crowd any nails to drive into > light rail's > coffin. > > My family always preferred the old vibrant Downtown of the > 1950s and '60s as > well as the once successful business area centered around > 27th & Fond du > Lac. And we lived across the street from Capitol Court! And > we were all mass > transit users. > > I believe a major reason both Northridge and Capitol Court > died was because > of Milwaukee's age old distrust and contempt between > Whites and > African-Americans. That is not a very eloquent way to put > it, but the > Whites tend to be a blockbuster's delight once > African-Americans move into > formerly all White areas. Many Milwaukee African-Americans > do not wish to > make the remaining Whites feel welcome. > > I am from a racially blended family and I lived in > Milwaukee for the first > twenty five years of my life. The hatred and mistrust > between these two > groups was, and often is, horrible. > > I now live in a racially diverse Las Vegas suburb and have > seen so much > social progress. Las Vegas was once known as "the > Mississippi of the West." > Whenever I visit Milwaukee, it's still the same old > nonsense. Racism will > never go away completely, but Milwaukee area politicians > seem to thrive on > fanning the flames. > > I bring the above up because it is social component few > people wish to > discuss. In Los Angeles, expansion of the light rail > network was opposed by > some so-called "Black activists" who claimed > extensions into White areas > whose residents are more prone to driving themselves wastes > funds that could > be put to better use by putting more buses on the streets > for racial > minorities who don't drive. But I thought the problem > in L.A. was that > everybody drives. > > I know the Downtown Streetcar Circulator in Portland is a > success. I wish > Milwaukee the best. I also felt this could be a "foot > in the door" line, but > I was hoping for a more of a private right of way line > between residential > neighborhoods and where the residents work and shop. > > So let's have a healthy debate! > > Let's ask present day Milwaukeeans where they believe > the starter line > should be built and why. > > K. Hi all! I'm John, the guy who pushed for 'pne leg at a time' in an earlier post. Well, now that it looks like Mayor Barret will have the wit and where-for-all to get one my my 'legs' a reality! After attending one of the transit meetings where light rail and streetcars were all over, my personal plans for adding to Mayor Barrett's downtown system, unfortunately, would have some problems. A North Shore connection could begin at the Bayshore Town Center could travel down Port Washington road and connect up with the railroad right of way(that became the bike path) could remain off city streets (with stations throughout the line. This, in turn, could connect to the downtown line at the IIntermodal Station. The other 'legs' of the system would begin downtown Light Rail on Fond du lac avenue from 107th Street to downtown would serice many residential and commercial areas. Spuce up the existing right of way at Miller Park and make it working land that will go to the regional medical center in Wauwatosa. My next 'leg' would be In conjunction with the "Zoo Interchange of I 94 and Hwy 45. An additional lane or two could head south, connecting with the Hales Corners right of way!Of course, these would be the 'easy parts' because my next 'leg' is to Brookfield, Elm Grove and Waukesha! Please let me know your thoughts! John From x779 at webtv.net Thu Mar 19 18:24:19 2009 From: x779 at webtv.net (mrcooby) Date: Thu, 19 Mar 2009 22:24:19 -0000 Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Kenosha proves to be model for Milwaukee streetcar system plan Message-ID: >From KenoshaStreetcars at yahoogroups.com: Kenosha proves to be model for Milwaukee streetcar system plan BY MATTHEW OLSON molson at kenoshanews.com As Milwaukee gets assistance for its own downtown streetcar, a Kenosha transit official sees that proposal as a boost to regional transit plans and not a threat to interest in Kenosha's railways. Part of the $410 billion federal spending bill signed last week by President Obama included a provision to divide $91.5 million in transit aid between the city and county of Milwaukee. The $91.5 million in funding was initially approved in 1991, but was held up when Milwaukee city and county officials were unable to decide how to divide the money. The city's 60 percent share is planned for a downtown streetcar line, while Milwaukee County's funds destined for the county bus system. The concept of a downtown streetcar is nothing new to Kenosha. The city restarted its downtown streetcar rail line in 2000, and an estimated 65,000 people rode on Kenosha's rails last year. Advertisement Kenosha Area Transit Director Len Brandrup said Milwaukee officials have taken a look at Kenosha's streetcar setup in recent years. "We have an excellent working relationship with the city of Milwaukee and have had them visit the streetcar system and showed them what it meant to the community," Brandrup said. But a Milwaukee streetcar system could have a significant connection for Kenosha beyond initial research. Pete Beitzel, chairman of the Milwaukee Connector Transit Study and vice president of the Metropolitan Milwaukee Association of Commerce, said Milwaukee Mayor Tom Barrett's current plan for the streetcar line would create a three-mile loop through downtown Milwaukee. That line is expected to connect with the Amtrak train/Greyhound bus station. That transit station is also the likely Milwaukee stop for a potential Kenosha-Racine-Milwaukee (KRM) commuter rail link. "Having the KRM in the same place would connect the station to downtown Milwaukee," Beitzel said. "Now, you either have to get a cab or have someone pick you up (from the station)." Brandrup said he was excited that a deal had been reached for these funds and said Milwaukee's streetcar could make the KRM proposal more attractive. "I personally think the idea of circulation in the core of the Milwaukee area is important in relation to our commuter rail option," Brandrup said. "Any circulation improvements to enhance that investment can provide better opportunities for the ridership to link to business and activities in downtown Milwaukee." This proposal could assist the KRM proposal, but could it also hurt interest in Kenosha's streetcar? Brandrup said while Kenosha features a historic, vintage streetcar line, Milwaukee is expected to create a more modern rail system, which should keep classic streetcar enthusiasts coming down to Kenosha. "I don't think it will have any impact whatsoever," Brandrup said. "One would be a historic system and one a modern system. And you'll be able to ride a modern rail line between the two." A Milwaukee streetcar is still not a sure thing. Milwaukee's transit study ends in December, and Beitzel said it would be up to Milwaukee officials to decide how much of the plan they would like to follow. The system would receive about $54 million in the transit funding split, but Beitzel said the project is likely to cost more than that. The Associated Press contributed to this story. --- End forwarded message --- From x779 at webtv.net Fri Mar 20 19:34:17 2009 From: x779 at webtv.net (mrcooby) Date: Fri, 20 Mar 2009 23:34:17 -0000 Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Pivotal State Budget Hearings are Next Step in Push for RTA. Message-ID: Historic decisions on the Regional Transit Authority will be made in the coming weeks that will shape our ability to connect people to jobs, spur sustainable economic development, and attract the businesses, jobs, and talent that will build wealth in SE Wisconsin. We have arrived at a pivotal point and our attention and action is important over the next few months. The future of our transit systems and KRM Line is riding on the creation of a strong permanent Regional Transit Authority. With a permanent RTA we can avoid major transit service reductions that cut people off from jobs and will eventually result in bankrupt transit systems. Without an RTA, KRM Commuter Rail and other initiatives cannot become a reality. See talking points about why an RTA is needed now. State legislation is required to create a permanent RTA. The Governor has included a strong RTA proposal in his budget bill. On March 25 and March 30, state budget hearings will take place in West Allis and Racine that will kick off the the next step of needed legislative action on the RTA. See more about the Governor's RTA proposal and why an RTA is vital NOW . Urgency: The window of opportunity is very short! Support Governor Doyle's RTA proposal with the addition of property tax relief. 1. Attend state budget hearing and testify (arrive between 8:30 AM and 9:00 AM to register). Testimony is limited to 3 minutes; bring copies of your testimony to submit in writing. Please include full name and address. 2. Join with RTA, transit, and KRM advocates from 9:30 AM to 11:00 AM at the budget hearings to show the broad support for the Governor's RTA budget proposal. Buttons will be available to identify you as a supporter, please wear green or black. 3. Submit written testimony or register your opinion at the hearing. State Budget Hearings in SE Wisconsin Wednesday, March 25, 2009 10 - 4 State Fair Park, Banquet Room #2, 640 S. 84th Street, West Allis, WI 53214 Monday, March 30, 10-4 P.M J.I. Case High School, Theater, 7345 Washington Ave., Racine 4. Send letters and emails to Joint Finance Committee members. Click here for contact information. It's very helpful if you send us a copy. Finally, please endorse the Transit Principles for Prosperity . The endorser list illustrates the broad support for the RTA and transit advancements. Ask your organization or businesses to sign on! All aboard for the RTA! Thanks ... =Lou Rugani= From x779 at webtv.net Mon Mar 23 20:13:36 2009 From: x779 at webtv.net (mrcooby) Date: Tue, 24 Mar 2009 00:13:36 -0000 Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Feds approve Milwaukee streetcar plans. Message-ID: Milwaukee Mayor Tom Barrett announced this morning that the Federal Omnibus Budget Bill that was signed into law this week includes a provision to spend the $91.5 million that has been on hold since 1991 on transportation in Milwaukee. The provision for Milwaukee dedicates spending 60 percent of the remaining $91.5 million to for Barrett's downtown streetcar rail project and 40 percent of the funds for new energy-efficient buses to operate on Milwaukee County's bus rapid transit routes. The funds had been allocated for Milwaukee but could not be spent because the federal government previously had required the Milwaukee mayor, the Milwaukee County executive and the governor of Wisconsin to each agree on how the transit dollars would be allocated. Milwaukee County Executive Scott Walker refused to compromise with Barrett on the use of the funds. So, even though the feds had allocated the $91.5 million, it could not be spent. Barrett, a former Congressman, then bypassed Walker's objections by convincing key members of Wisconsin's Congressional delegation to alter the stipulations of the funding in the new federal bill. "It was approximately two years ago that I said, 'It's obvious we're not going to agree on this. Let's do what kindergarteners do and cut the pie in half,' and he (Walker) said, 'No,'" Barrett told BizTimes Milwaukee today. "Mayor Barrett made it quite clear that if the county executive would not sign off on an agreeable solution for spending the $91.5 million, the mayor would ask our Congressional delegation for assistance," said Patrick Curley, Barrett's chief of staff. Barrett said he worked with Sen. Herb Kohl (D-Wis.), Rep. Gwen Moore (D-Milwaukee) and Rep. David Obey (D-Wausau) to change the terms of the Milwaukee transit allocations to bypass Walker's objections. "I thought, 'I gotta move at some point.' We approached the Congressional delegation and said, 'We need your help,'" Barrett said. The new Milwaukee provision in the $410 billion bill originated in the House, was reaffirmed in the Senate and was signed into law by President Barack Obama on Wednesday. Barrett said the timing of the bill is "opportune," because Obama's economic stimulus bill allocates $8 billion in funding for intercity rail that could connect Chicago through Milwaukee and Madison to the Twin Cities, and the Kenosha-Racine-Milwaukee (KRM) commuter rail project also is moving forward. With the downtown rail project and new bus rapid transit routes, passengers will be able to move around the city and the county once they arrive in Milwaukee from the intercity and KRM trains, Barrett said. "Our intent is to continue working with the FTA (Federal Transit Administration). We want to accelerate things," Barrett said. For more information about Barrett's downtown rail transit plan, visit www.city.milwaukee.gov/transit. Fran McLaughlin, director of communications for Walker, said this morning she was not aware that the omnibus bill included the provisions to bypass the county executive and allocate the funds for Milwaukee. Walker was not available for comment. From dickmyers at wi.rr.com Tue Mar 24 21:15:30 2009 From: dickmyers at wi.rr.com (dickmyers at wi.rr.com) Date: Wed, 25 Mar 2009 1:15:30 +0000 Subject: [milwaukee-electric] The world's biggest model train set Message-ID: <20090325011530.7N4Q8.397979.root@hrndva-web15-z01> Photo gallery at the link below: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/picturegalleries/howaboutthat/5043783/The-worlds-biggest-model-train-set.html Full article: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/howaboutthat/5043428/Worlds-biggest-train-set-revealed.html The set is being built by two German brothers in an empty building on the banks of the Elbe in Hamburg and includes six regions including America, Switzerland, Scandinavia, Germany and the Austrian Alps. The American section features giant models of the Rocky Mountains and Mount Rushmore; the Swiss section has a mini-Matterhorn; and the Scandinavian part has a 4ft long passenger ship floating in a 'fjord'. It is expected to be finished in 2014, when the train set will cover more than 1,800 square metres (19, 376 sq ft) and feature almost 13 miles of track, by which time detailed models of parts of France, Italy and the UK will have been added. It comprises 700 trains with more than 10,000 carriages and wagons. The longest train is 46ft long. The scenery includes 900 signals, 2,800 buildings, 4,000 cars - many with illuminated headlights - and 160,000 individually designed figures. More than 4,000kg of steel was used to construct the scenery along with 700kg of artificial grass. And the 250,000 lights are rigged up to a system which mimics night and day by automatically turning them on and off. Brothers Frederick and Gerrit Braun, 41, began work on the 'Miniatur Wunderland' in 2000. The set is on display to the public and is so big that they employ more than 160 people to show visitors around their creation. In total the set has taken 500,000 hours and more than ?8 million to put together, the vast majority of which has come from ticket sales used to extend the original. Gerrit said: "Our idea was to build a world that men, woman, and children can be equally astonished and amazed in. "One of our fundamentals has always been to meet every challenge, no matter how hopeless it seems to be in the beginning. "With this attitude we managed to create technology which amazes our visitors."