From jdl896 at wi.rr.com Wed Nov 4 15:55:23 2009 From: jdl896 at wi.rr.com (jdl896 at wi.rr.com) Date: Wed, 4 Nov 2009 15:55:23 -0500 Subject: [milwaukee-electric] I'm finally back! Message-ID: <20091104205523.J881D.65034.root@hrndva-web20-z01> Hello everyone, It???s John, and I???m finally back on the lisr after various ISP changes. U???ve been keeping an eye on your posts, though, North Shore and Interurban routes, ???found??? streetcar tracks, and all. I???m probably one of the youngest members. I mean, streetcars are a thing of the past for me. My mom did say she took me on a streetcar once, but I was barely a year old. Even the trackless trolleys were on their last legs when I rode them in the 60???s, but I really wanted to drive one when I grew up (well be know what happened to those plans) Even though I have no photos, my ???photographic mind??? remembers streetcar trscks on North Water street when they were tearing them out, along with the cobblestones (I even grabbed a couple for historic reasons. This was near Laacke and Joys. Who remembers the large drinking trough for the horses that was still there? The North Shore station on 6th street had just closed. But I swear I remember seeing aNS car clckety clacking across the sixth street viaduct! My fascination for trolley buses prompted me to buy THE TRACLESS TROLLEY YEARS-A MILWAUKEE TRANSPORT ERA by Russell Schulz. When I spoke with him with him (thanks to Tom and Tracie) I asked if I coul share stories and photos from the book. He told me to go ahead and share anything I wanted, because that???s why he wrote it! Therefore. I???m happy to say that, every once in awhile, I???ll share a story and/or photos about my dreams to drive a trolley bus! I???ll attach a photo of two route 22 coaches struggling to get up the hill on Locust street by Riverside High School (my alma mater) during the blizzard of 1947(before my time) John -- Attached file removed by Ecartis and put at URL below -- -- Type: image/jpeg -- Size: 109k (112639 bytes) -- URL : http://lists.dementia.org/files/milwaukee-electric/Coach140.jpg From ktjosephson at embarqmail.com Thu Nov 12 07:06:12 2009 From: ktjosephson at embarqmail.com (Ken and Tracie) Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2009 04:06:12 -0800 Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Fw: Chicago Transit & Railfan Web Site new URL Message-ID: Am passing on this info about one of my favorite Midwestern traction/transit web sites. Bill put a lot of work into this and he even covers Milwaukee, Enjoy. K. ----- Original Message ----- From: willvdv Sent: Thursday, November 12, 2009 3:58 AM Subject: Chicago Transit & Railfan Web Site new URL To everybody who has linked to my Web site, along with everybody else who has asked. The Chicago Transit & Railfan Web Site has moved! New URL: http://web.me.com/willvdv/ Thank you for your interest and patience. Bill Vandervoort From jdl896 at wi.rr.com Thu Nov 12 19:15:18 2009 From: jdl896 at wi.rr.com (jdl896 at wi.rr.com) Date: Fri, 13 Nov 2009 0:15:18 +0000 Subject: [milwaukee-electric] THE BUS THAT WENT SHOPPING Message-ID: <20091113001518.UPYM0.206246.root@hrndva-web25-z01> Twin Coach 52 was the first trackless coach to arrive in Milwaukee. The year was 1936, and it was among the first coaches to debut on route 21, North Avenue. This was the first trackless trolley route in Milwaukee. One of the main reasons for the conversion, was street work on North Avenue. Paving the street was delayed, but I don't know if it was because the rail was being removed, but on November 6, 19366, the trackless trolley years officially began! The exterior was streamlined, (as shown by the slick advertising folder produced by the TMER&LC , and the interior was plush (by 30s standards) On January 16, 1950, at the corner of 52nd and North Avenue, Twin Coach 52 )one of the coaches that ushered in the trackless trolley in 1936) made an unexpected stop through the front window of the Lawrenz Grocery Store. No one was hurt, but I would give anything for one of those boxes of Rice Krispies today! -- Attached file removed by Ecartis and put at URL below -- -- Type: image/jpeg -- Size: 1117k (1144536 bytes) -- URL : http://lists.dementia.org/files/milwaukee-electric/02-PrintAd1936.jpg -- Attached file removed by Ecartis and put at URL below -- -- Type: image/jpeg -- Size: 587k (602016 bytes) -- URL : http://lists.dementia.org/files/milwaukee-electric/02-Coach52Interior1.jpg -- Attached file removed by Ecartis and put at URL below -- -- Type: image/jpeg -- Size: 451k (461926 bytes) -- URL : http://lists.dementia.org/files/milwaukee-electric/02-Coach52Interior2.jpg -- Attached file removed by Ecartis and put at URL below -- -- Type: image/jpeg -- Size: 334k (342664 bytes) -- URL : http://lists.dementia.org/files/milwaukee-electric/Shopping1.JPG -- Attached file removed by Ecartis and put at URL below -- -- Type: image/jpeg -- Size: 532k (544845 bytes) -- URL : http://lists.dementia.org/files/milwaukee-electric/Shopping2.jpg From dickmyers at wi.rr.com Thu Nov 12 20:33:35 2009 From: dickmyers at wi.rr.com (Dick Myers) Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2009 19:33:35 -0600 Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: THE BUS THAT WENT SHOPPING References: <20091113001518.UPYM0.206246.root@hrndva-web25-z01> Message-ID: The file for the print ad does not seem to load. ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Thursday, November 12, 2009 6:15 PM Subject: [milwaukee-electric] THE BUS THAT WENT SHOPPING > Twin Coach 52 was the first trackless coach to arrive in Milwaukee. The > year was 1936, and it was among the first coaches to debut on route 21, > North Avenue. This was the first trackless trolley route in Milwaukee. One > of the main reasons for the conversion, was street work on North Avenue. > Paving the street was delayed, but I don't know if it was because the rail > was being removed, but on November 6, 19366, the trackless trolley years > officially began! The exterior was streamlined, (as shown by the slick > advertising folder produced by the TMER&LC , and the interior was plush > (by 30s standards) > > On January 16, 1950, at the corner of 52nd and North Avenue, Twin Coach > 52 )one of the coaches that ushered in the trackless trolley in 1936) made > an unexpected stop through the front window of the Lawrenz Grocery Store. > No one was hurt, but I would give anything for one of those boxes of Rice > Krispies today! > > > -- Attached file removed by Ecartis and put at URL below -- > -- Type: image/jpeg > -- Size: 1117k (1144536 bytes) > -- URL : > http://lists.dementia.org/files/milwaukee-electric/02-PrintAd1936.jpg > > > -- Attached file removed by Ecartis and put at URL below -- > -- Type: image/jpeg > -- Size: 587k (602016 bytes) > -- URL : > http://lists.dementia.org/files/milwaukee-electric/02-Coach52Interior1.jpg > > > -- Attached file removed by Ecartis and put at URL below -- > -- Type: image/jpeg > -- Size: 451k (461926 bytes) > -- URL : > http://lists.dementia.org/files/milwaukee-electric/02-Coach52Interior2.jpg > > > -- Attached file removed by Ecartis and put at URL below -- > -- Type: image/jpeg > -- Size: 334k (342664 bytes) > -- URL : http://lists.dementia.org/files/milwaukee-electric/Shopping1.JPG > > > -- Attached file removed by Ecartis and put at URL below -- > -- Type: image/jpeg > -- Size: 532k (544845 bytes) > -- URL : http://lists.dementia.org/files/milwaukee-electric/Shopping2.jpg > > > From DLeistikow at webtv.net Fri Nov 13 00:00:27 2009 From: DLeistikow at webtv.net (Don L. Leistikow) Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2009 23:00:27 -0600 Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: THE BUS THAT WENT SHOPPING In-Reply-To: 's message of Fri, 13 Nov 2009 0:15:18 +0000 Message-ID: <20747-4AFCE7EB-2213@storefull-3173.bay.webtv.net> JDL896 and list: Wonderful accoounting of the first Twin Coach Trackless Trolleys in Milwaukee. There were 30 'cars' in this series #50 through #79. The year was 1936 and the occasson was greeted with huge appreciation and acceptance. The photographs contained in this message, are simply great and much appreciated. Of interest was the fact that in Milwaukee they were considered Trolley Coaches, operated by electricity, and therefore came under the Street Railway definition as Strretcars. These coaches then did not require License Plates as they were not motor coach vehicles. Don L. From x779 at webtv.net Wed Nov 18 09:10:48 2009 From: x779 at webtv.net (Louis Rugani) Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2009 14:10:48 GMT Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Streetcar crisis: Message-ID: -----Original Message----- From: Louis Rugani Sent: Tuesday, November 17, 2009 12:53 PM To: harborpark at onelist.com Subject: Streetcar crisis: As reported, the City of Kenosha is discussing closing the popular downtown streetcar line entirely during January, February and March, 2010. This is a very bad idea for several reasons: 34% of all tourists use the line, and Kenosha derives $235 million a year from tourism. It serves HarborPark, Metra, the busy downtown area, and three very popular museums, one of which is a Smithsonian affiliate. 2009 will be another record year for streetcar ridership, which should top 65,000. Written comments are very acceptible, as are emailed comments: Transportation Department City of Kenosha 625 52nd Street Kenosha WI 53140 Mr. Len Brandrup Director of Transportation tlenb at kenosha.org (tlenbATkenosha.org) Mayor Keith Bosman ajean at kenosha.org (ajeandATkenosha.org) This is only one city official's proposal. Please attend the official public hearing on this proposal at 4 PM on Thursday November 20th at the Kenosha Municipal Building, 625 52nd Street near the Metra Station, and again at the main Budget Hearings the first Monday in December at 7 PM in the same building. It matters not if you're a local resident. In fact, the City Council is very impressed by non-residents' opinions. Governments look for the low hanging fruit first. So unless riders scream, rant and rave, probably the big switch will be pulled. Keep the streetcars running. Please pass this around to any appropriate rail groups you see fit. See you there, and thanks. From ktjosephson at embarqmail.com Wed Nov 18 15:09:05 2009 From: ktjosephson at embarqmail.com (Ken and Tracie) Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2009 12:09:05 -0800 Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Car 1141 References: <20091113001518.UPYM0.206246.root@hrndva-web25-z01> Message-ID: <3280531A7AEC47ED81B2F66ADD33D451@KTJosephson> What's going on in this photo? Is this car being used as a Speedrail freight motor? Or is this the aftermath a certain friend's unofficial "fan trip" after Speedrail shutdown? (Don Leistikow will know what I am referring to.) K. -- Attached file removed by Ecartis and put at URL below -- -- Type: image/jpeg -- Size: 143k (146594 bytes) -- URL : http://lists.dementia.org/files/milwaukee-electric/mrt1141.jpg From sbgreig_m1 at yahoo.com Wed Nov 18 15:24:18 2009 From: sbgreig_m1 at yahoo.com (Scott Greig) Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2009 12:24:18 -0800 (PST) Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: Car 1141 In-Reply-To: <3280531A7AEC47ED81B2F66ADD33D451@KTJosephson> Message-ID: <923058.37616.qm@web65514.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> I think that was taken "post-fantrip". ? (I heard the story from Paul himself.? Even better than Nedden's version!) --- On Wed, 11/18/09, Ken and Tracie wrote: From: Ken and Tracie Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Car 1141 To: milwaukee-electric at lists.dementia.org Date: Wednesday, November 18, 2009, 2:09 PM What's going on in this photo? Is this car being used as a Speedrail freight motor? Or is this the aftermath a certain friend's unofficial "fan trip" after Speedrail shutdown? (Don Leistikow will know what I am referring to.) K. -- Attached file removed by Ecartis and put at URL below -- -- Type: image/jpeg -- Size: 143k (146594 bytes) -- URL : http://lists.dementia.org/files/milwaukee-electric/mrt1141.jpg From ktjosephson at embarqmail.com Wed Nov 18 16:10:46 2009 From: ktjosephson at embarqmail.com (Ken and Tracie) Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2009 13:10:46 -0800 Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: Car 1141 References: <923058.37616.qm@web65514.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Yep, Paul took us out to dinner on a Las Vegas trip. Told the story. Tracie said, "You guys were baaaaaaaaaaaad!" K. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Scott Greig" To: Sent: Wednesday, November 18, 2009 12:24 PM Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: Car 1141 >I think that was taken "post-fantrip". > > (I heard the story from Paul himself. Even better than Nedden's version!) > --- On Wed, 11/18/09, Ken and Tracie wrote: > > > From: Ken and Tracie > Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Car 1141 > To: milwaukee-electric at lists.dementia.org > Date: Wednesday, November 18, 2009, 2:09 PM > > > What's going on in this photo? > Is this car being used as a Speedrail freight motor? Or is this the > aftermath a certain friend's unofficial "fan trip" after Speedrail > shutdown? > (Don Leistikow will know what I am referring to.) > > K. > > > -- Attached file removed by Ecartis and put at URL below -- > -- Type: image/jpeg > -- Size: 143k (146594 bytes) > -- URL : http://lists.dementia.org/files/milwaukee-electric/mrt1141.jpg > > > > > From ktjosephson at embarqmail.com Wed Nov 18 16:16:37 2009 From: ktjosephson at embarqmail.com (Ken and Tracie) Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2009 13:16:37 -0800 Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: Car 1141 References: <923058.37616.qm@web65514.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Looks like somebody got a nice set of air horns as a souvenir. I'd like a set of those. They have a really nice sound. K. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Scott Greig" To: Sent: Wednesday, November 18, 2009 12:24 PM Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: Car 1141 >I think that was taken "post-fantrip". > > (I heard the story from Paul himself. Even better than Nedden's version!) > --- On Wed, 11/18/09, Ken and Tracie wrote: > > > From: Ken and Tracie > Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Car 1141 > To: milwaukee-electric at lists.dementia.org > Date: Wednesday, November 18, 2009, 2:09 PM > > > What's going on in this photo? > Is this car being used as a Speedrail freight motor? Or is this the > aftermath a certain friend's unofficial "fan trip" after Speedrail > shutdown? > (Don Leistikow will know what I am referring to.) > > K. > > > -- Attached file removed by Ecartis and put at URL below -- > -- Type: image/jpeg > -- Size: 143k (146594 bytes) > -- URL : http://lists.dementia.org/files/milwaukee-electric/mrt1141.jpg > > > > > From ktjosephson at embarqmail.com Wed Nov 18 16:19:48 2009 From: ktjosephson at embarqmail.com (Ken and Tracie) Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2009 13:19:48 -0800 Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Website Update References: <923058.37616.qm@web65514.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <3AB4ECADAA4D4BC1942E10D28DCAC7DA@KTJosephson> I added some images to the "Retirement", "Work Equipment", "Rapid Transit" and "Streetcars" pages. Am resizing some of Larry Allen's "Relics" images for posting. www.thetransportco.com K. From sbgreig_m1 at yahoo.com Wed Nov 18 16:24:33 2009 From: sbgreig_m1 at yahoo.com (Scott Greig) Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2009 13:24:33 -0800 (PST) Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: Car 1141 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <422506.96663.qm@web65513.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> A lot of those air horns disappeared off the 1100s in the Speedrail era to put on the lightweight cars.? They needed fifteen?for the 1030s and another six for the curvesiders, and since Maeder had neither pot nor window, where else would they get 'em from? --- On Wed, 11/18/09, Ken and Tracie wrote: From: Ken and Tracie Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: Car 1141 To: milwaukee-electric at lists.dementia.org Date: Wednesday, November 18, 2009, 3:16 PM Looks like somebody got a nice set of air horns as a souvenir. I'd like a set of those. They have a really nice sound. K. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Scott Greig" To: Sent: Wednesday, November 18, 2009 12:24 PM Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: Car 1141 >I think that was taken "post-fantrip". > > (I heard the story from Paul himself. Even better than Nedden's version!) > --- On Wed, 11/18/09, Ken and Tracie wrote: > > > From: Ken and Tracie > Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Car 1141 > To: milwaukee-electric at lists.dementia.org > Date: Wednesday, November 18, 2009, 2:09 PM > > > What's going on in this photo? > Is this car being used as a Speedrail freight motor? Or is this the > aftermath a certain friend's unofficial "fan trip" after Speedrail > shutdown? > (Don Leistikow will know what I am referring to.) > > K. > > > -- Attached file removed by Ecartis and put at URL below -- > -- Type: image/jpeg > -- Size: 143k (146594 bytes) > -- URL : http://lists.dementia.org/files/milwaukee-electric/mrt1141.jpg > > > > > From sbgreig_m1 at yahoo.com Wed Nov 18 16:26:18 2009 From: sbgreig_m1 at yahoo.com (Scott Greig) Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2009 13:26:18 -0800 (PST) Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: Car 1141 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <258410.69059.qm@web65505.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> What I really got a laugh out of is how he said he was *goaded* into it by his out-of-town friends who'd *just* missed Speedrail by days. --- On Wed, 11/18/09, Ken and Tracie wrote: From: Ken and Tracie Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: Car 1141 To: milwaukee-electric at lists.dementia.org Date: Wednesday, November 18, 2009, 3:10 PM Yep, Paul took us out to dinner on a Las Vegas trip. Told the story. Tracie said, "You guys were baaaaaaaaaaaad!" K. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Scott Greig" To: Sent: Wednesday, November 18, 2009 12:24 PM Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: Car 1141 >I think that was taken "post-fantrip". > > (I heard the story from Paul himself. Even better than Nedden's version!) > --- On Wed, 11/18/09, Ken and Tracie wrote: > > > From: Ken and Tracie > Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Car 1141 > To: milwaukee-electric at lists.dementia.org > Date: Wednesday, November 18, 2009, 2:09 PM > > > What's going on in this photo? > Is this car being used as a Speedrail freight motor? Or is this the > aftermath a certain friend's unofficial "fan trip" after Speedrail > shutdown? > (Don Leistikow will know what I am referring to.) > > K. > > > -- Attached file removed by Ecartis and put at URL below -- > -- Type: image/jpeg > -- Size: 143k (146594 bytes) > -- URL : http://lists.dementia.org/files/milwaukee-electric/mrt1141.jpg > > > > > From ktjosephson at embarqmail.com Wed Nov 18 16:39:46 2009 From: ktjosephson at embarqmail.com (Ken and Tracie) Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2009 13:39:46 -0800 Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: Car 1141 References: <422506.96663.qm@web65513.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <9B1C45E4140540838114C354D01DABEF@KTJosephson> I remember the earliest TWERHS days at East Troy. The 757, 763 and L-4 had them. They really rang through the countryside. I would have loved to have heard a set on a train passing at 60-70 mph. The 757 & 763 eventually received proper horns. Worst sounding? The single horn on IRM's IT suburban car. I believe some of the SSL's 1980s cars initially had some wimpy sounding horns, too. Some guy in town has a Nathan five chime set mounted in the bed of an F-250. He's not a railfan, just a regular sort of nut. ;-) K. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Scott Greig" To: Sent: Wednesday, November 18, 2009 1:24 PM Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: Car 1141 >A lot of those air horns disappeared off the 1100s in the Speedrail era to >put on the lightweight cars. They needed fifteen for the 1030s and another >six for the curvesiders, and since Maeder had neither pot nor window, where >else would they get 'em from? > --- On Wed, 11/18/09, Ken and Tracie wrote: > > > From: Ken and Tracie > Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: Car 1141 > To: milwaukee-electric at lists.dementia.org > Date: Wednesday, November 18, 2009, 3:16 PM > > > Looks like somebody got a nice set of air horns as a souvenir. > > I'd like a set of those. They have a really nice sound. > > K. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Scott Greig" > To: > Sent: Wednesday, November 18, 2009 12:24 PM > Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: Car 1141 > > >>I think that was taken "post-fantrip". >> >> (I heard the story from Paul himself. Even better than Nedden's version!) >> --- On Wed, 11/18/09, Ken and Tracie wrote: >> >> >> From: Ken and Tracie >> Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Car 1141 >> To: milwaukee-electric at lists.dementia.org >> Date: Wednesday, November 18, 2009, 2:09 PM >> >> >> What's going on in this photo? >> Is this car being used as a Speedrail freight motor? Or is this the >> aftermath a certain friend's unofficial "fan trip" after Speedrail >> shutdown? >> (Don Leistikow will know what I am referring to.) >> >> K. >> >> >> -- Attached file removed by Ecartis and put at URL below -- >> -- Type: image/jpeg >> -- Size: 143k (146594 bytes) >> -- URL : http://lists.dementia.org/files/milwaukee-electric/mrt1141.jpg >> >> >> >> >> > > > > From sbgreig_m1 at yahoo.com Wed Nov 18 16:55:30 2009 From: sbgreig_m1 at yahoo.com (Scott Greig) Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2009 13:55:30 -0800 (PST) Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: Car 1141 In-Reply-To: <9B1C45E4140540838114C354D01DABEF@KTJosephson> Message-ID: <605184.84624.qm@web65505.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> L4 has its correct horns again.? Take it from me...ya don't wanna be standing in front of 'em when they go off!!!? (WHAAAAAT??????) ? That horn on the 415 (and 277) is a Strombos truck horn.? Yes, they're blah.? (Ironically, the 233 and 277 had a single-bell version of the TM horn (AC-1, I think it was; TM's were AAC-1s) for many years. ? One of the horn types used by the North Shore (AA-2) is very similar to the TM's horns, albeit with straight cast bells.? They can sound very, very good. --- On Wed, 11/18/09, Ken and Tracie wrote: From: Ken and Tracie Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: Car 1141 To: milwaukee-electric at lists.dementia.org Date: Wednesday, November 18, 2009, 3:39 PM I remember the earliest TWERHS days at East Troy. The 757, 763 and L-4 had them. They really rang through the countryside. I would have loved to have heard a set on a train passing at 60-70 mph. The 757 & 763 eventually received proper horns. Worst sounding? The single horn on IRM's IT suburban car. I believe some of the SSL's 1980s cars initially had some wimpy sounding horns, too. Some guy in town has a Nathan five chime set mounted in the bed of an F-250. He's not a railfan, just a regular sort of nut. ;-) K. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Scott Greig" To: Sent: Wednesday, November 18, 2009 1:24 PM Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: Car 1141 >A lot of those air horns disappeared off the 1100s in the Speedrail era to >put on the lightweight cars. They needed fifteen for the 1030s and another >six for the curvesiders, and since Maeder had neither pot nor window, where >else would they get 'em from? > --- On Wed, 11/18/09, Ken and Tracie wrote: > > > From: Ken and Tracie > Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: Car 1141 > To: milwaukee-electric at lists.dementia.org > Date: Wednesday, November 18, 2009, 3:16 PM > > > Looks like somebody got a nice set of air horns as a souvenir. > > I'd like a set of those. They have a really nice sound. > > K. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Scott Greig" > To: > Sent: Wednesday, November 18, 2009 12:24 PM > Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: Car 1141 > > >>I think that was taken "post-fantrip". >> >> (I heard the story from Paul himself. Even better than Nedden's version!) >> --- On Wed, 11/18/09, Ken and Tracie wrote: >> >> >> From: Ken and Tracie >> Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Car 1141 >> To: milwaukee-electric at lists.dementia.org >> Date: Wednesday, November 18, 2009, 2:09 PM >> >> >> What's going on in this photo? >> Is this car being used as a Speedrail freight motor? Or is this the >> aftermath a certain friend's unofficial "fan trip" after Speedrail >> shutdown? >> (Don Leistikow will know what I am referring to.) >> >> K. >> >> >> -- Attached file removed by Ecartis and put at URL below -- >> -- Type: image/jpeg >> -- Size: 143k (146594 bytes) >> -- URL : http://lists.dementia.org/files/milwaukee-electric/mrt1141.jpg >> >> >> >> >> > > > > From ktjosephson at embarqmail.com Wed Nov 18 17:19:45 2009 From: ktjosephson at embarqmail.com (Ken and Tracie) Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2009 14:19:45 -0800 Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Whistles & Air Horns References: <605184.84624.qm@web65505.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1F37E84D403D49BA8C311D47A87527FF@KTJosephson> Are the correct horns for L-4 the same as the 1100s? That's what it had at East Troy. L-7 had a regular Westinghouse whistle. I believe L-9 & L-10 had interurban horns at Lakeside. BTW, I take back what I said about 415....they have something on 846 at East Troy which sounds like a drunk goat heaving. Check it out on "You Tube." K. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Scott Greig" To: Sent: Wednesday, November 18, 2009 1:55 PM Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: Car 1141 > L4 has its correct horns again. Take it from me...ya don't wanna be > standing in front of 'em when they go off!!! (WHAAAAAT??????) > > That horn on the 415 (and 277) is a Strombos truck horn. Yes, they're > blah. (Ironically, the 233 and 277 had a single-bell version of the TM > horn (AC-1, I think it was; TM's were AAC-1s) for many years. > > One of the horn types used by the North Shore (AA-2) is very similar to > the TM's horns, albeit with straight cast bells. They can sound very, very > good. > --- On Wed, 11/18/09, Ken and Tracie wrote: > > > From: Ken and Tracie > Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: Car 1141 > To: milwaukee-electric at lists.dementia.org > Date: Wednesday, November 18, 2009, 3:39 PM > > > I remember the earliest TWERHS days at East Troy. The 757, 763 and L-4 had > them. They really rang through the countryside. I would have loved to have > heard a set on a train passing at 60-70 mph. > > The 757 & 763 eventually received proper horns. > > Worst sounding? The single horn on IRM's IT suburban car. I believe some > of > the SSL's 1980s cars initially had some wimpy sounding horns, too. > > Some guy in town has a Nathan five chime set mounted in the bed of an > F-250. > He's not a railfan, just a regular sort of nut. ;-) > > K. > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Scott Greig" > To: > Sent: Wednesday, November 18, 2009 1:24 PM > Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: Car 1141 > > >>A lot of those air horns disappeared off the 1100s in the Speedrail era to >>put on the lightweight cars. They needed fifteen for the 1030s and another >>six for the curvesiders, and since Maeder had neither pot nor window, >>where >>else would they get 'em from? >> --- On Wed, 11/18/09, Ken and Tracie wrote: >> >> >> From: Ken and Tracie >> Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: Car 1141 >> To: milwaukee-electric at lists.dementia.org >> Date: Wednesday, November 18, 2009, 3:16 PM >> >> >> Looks like somebody got a nice set of air horns as a souvenir. >> >> I'd like a set of those. They have a really nice sound. >> >> K. >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Scott Greig" >> To: >> Sent: Wednesday, November 18, 2009 12:24 PM >> Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: Car 1141 >> >> >>>I think that was taken "post-fantrip". >>> >>> (I heard the story from Paul himself. Even better than Nedden's >>> version!) >>> --- On Wed, 11/18/09, Ken and Tracie wrote: >>> >>> >>> From: Ken and Tracie >>> Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Car 1141 >>> To: milwaukee-electric at lists.dementia.org >>> Date: Wednesday, November 18, 2009, 2:09 PM >>> >>> >>> What's going on in this photo? >>> Is this car being used as a Speedrail freight motor? Or is this the >>> aftermath a certain friend's unofficial "fan trip" after Speedrail >>> shutdown? >>> (Don Leistikow will know what I am referring to.) >>> >>> K. >>> >>> >>> -- Attached file removed by Ecartis and put at URL below -- >>> -- Type: image/jpeg >>> -- Size: 143k (146594 bytes) >>> -- URL : http://lists.dementia.org/files/milwaukee-electric/mrt1141.jpg >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> >> > > > > From sbgreig_m1 at yahoo.com Wed Nov 18 18:23:13 2009 From: sbgreig_m1 at yahoo.com (Scott Greig) Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2009 15:23:13 -0800 (PST) Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: Whistles & Air Horns In-Reply-To: <1F37E84D403D49BA8C311D47A87527FF@KTJosephson> Message-ID: <678185.51035.qm@web65506.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Right, L4 has 1100 horns on it.? So does L10.? L3 and L7 have (or will have) WH whistles. IRM fitted 972 with WH whistles, piped into the air ringer circuit, when it first ran.? The new plan is to fit it with underfloor air horns piped into the sanding bail system.? (They're plastic truck horns from Farm & Fleet...but are they LOUD!!!!) --- On Wed, 11/18/09, Ken and Tracie wrote: From: Ken and Tracie Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Whistles & Air Horns To: milwaukee-electric at lists.dementia.org Date: Wednesday, November 18, 2009, 4:19 PM Are the correct horns for L-4 the same as the 1100s? That's what it had at East Troy. L-7 had a regular Westinghouse whistle. I believe L-9 & L-10 had interurban horns at Lakeside. BTW, I take back what I said about 415....they have something on 846 at East Troy which sounds like a drunk goat heaving. Check it out on "You Tube." K. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Scott Greig" To: Sent: Wednesday, November 18, 2009 1:55 PM Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: Car 1141 > L4 has its correct horns again. Take it from me...ya don't wanna be > standing in front of 'em when they go off!!! (WHAAAAAT??????) > > That horn on the 415 (and 277) is a Strombos truck horn. Yes, they're > blah. (Ironically, the 233 and 277 had a single-bell version of the TM > horn (AC-1, I think it was; TM's were AAC-1s) for many years. > > One of the horn types used by the North Shore (AA-2) is very similar to > the TM's horns, albeit with straight cast bells. They can sound very, very > good. > --- On Wed, 11/18/09, Ken and Tracie wrote: > > > From: Ken and Tracie > Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: Car 1141 > To: milwaukee-electric at lists.dementia.org > Date: Wednesday, November 18, 2009, 3:39 PM > > > I remember the earliest TWERHS days at East Troy. The 757, 763 and L-4 had > them. They really rang through the countryside. I would have loved to have > heard a set on a train passing at 60-70 mph. > > The 757 & 763 eventually received proper horns. > > Worst sounding? The single horn on IRM's IT suburban car. I believe some > of > the SSL's 1980s cars initially had some wimpy sounding horns, too. > > Some guy in town has a Nathan five chime set mounted in the bed of an > F-250. > He's not a railfan, just a regular sort of nut. ;-) > > K. > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Scott Greig" > To: > Sent: Wednesday, November 18, 2009 1:24 PM > Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: Car 1141 > > >>A lot of those air horns disappeared off the 1100s in the Speedrail era to >>put on the lightweight cars. They needed fifteen for the 1030s and another >>six for the curvesiders, and since Maeder had neither pot nor window, >>where >>else would they get 'em from? >> --- On Wed, 11/18/09, Ken and Tracie wrote: >> >> >> From: Ken and Tracie >> Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: Car 1141 >> To: milwaukee-electric at lists.dementia.org >> Date: Wednesday, November 18, 2009, 3:16 PM >> >> >> Looks like somebody got a nice set of air horns as a souvenir. >> >> I'd like a set of those. They have a really nice sound. >> >> K. >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Scott Greig" >> To: >> Sent: Wednesday, November 18, 2009 12:24 PM >> Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: Car 1141 >> >> >>>I think that was taken "post-fantrip". >>> >>> (I heard the story from Paul himself. Even better than Nedden's >>> version!) >>> --- On Wed, 11/18/09, Ken and Tracie wrote: >>> >>> >>> From: Ken and Tracie >>> Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Car 1141 >>> To: milwaukee-electric at lists.dementia.org >>> Date: Wednesday, November 18, 2009, 2:09 PM >>> >>> >>> What's going on in this photo? >>> Is this car being used as a Speedrail freight motor? Or is this the >>> aftermath a certain friend's unofficial "fan trip" after Speedrail >>> shutdown? >>> (Don Leistikow will know what I am referring to.) >>> >>> K. >>> >>> >>> -- Attached file removed by Ecartis and put at URL below -- >>> -- Type: image/jpeg >>> -- Size: 143k (146594 bytes) >>> -- URL : http://lists.dementia.org/files/milwaukee-electric/mrt1141.jpg >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> >> > > > > From x779 at webtv.net Wed Nov 18 19:09:52 2009 From: x779 at webtv.net (LouRugani) Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2009 00:09:52 -0000 Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Streetcar crisis: (Correcting typos) Message-ID: As reported, the City of Kenosha is discussing closing the popular downtown streetcar line entirely during January, February and March, 2010. This is a very bad idea for several reasons: 34% of all tourists use the line, and Kenosha derives $235 million a year from tourism. It serves HarborPark, Metra, the busy downtown area, and three very popular museums, one of which is a Smithsonian affiliate. 2009 will be another record year for streetcar ridership, which should top 65,000 despite a doubling of fares and the general economic situation. Written comments are very acceptible, as are emailed comments: Transportation Department City of Kenosha 625 52nd Street Kenosha WI 53140 Mr. Len Brandrup Director of Transportation tlenb at kenosha.org (tlenbATkenosha.org) Mayor Keith Bosman ajeand at kenosha.org (ajeandATkenosha.org) This is only one city official's proposal. Please attend the official public hearing on this proposal at 4 PM on Friday, November 20th at the Kenosha Municipal Building, 625 52nd Street near the Metra Station, and again at the main Budget Hearings in early December at 7 PM in the same building. It matters not if you're a local resident. In fact, the City Council is very impressed by non-residents' opinions. Governments look for the low-hanging fruit first. So unless riders scream, rant and rave, probably the big switch will be pulled. Keep the streetcars running. Please pass this around to any appropriate rail groups you see fit. See you there, and thanks. (Correcting typos.) From yance at oldmilwaukee.net Wed Nov 18 10:45:14 2009 From: yance at oldmilwaukee.net (Y Marti) Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2009 10:45:14 -0500 Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: Streetcar crisis: In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20091118104514.134174o1f2buk9gc@horde.oldmilwaukee.net> I think it's important for everyone to remember that donations to public entities like this are a benefit to everyone. Although I don't belong to the Kenosha Streetcar Society or know if it helps to raise money for the system, it would be a good idea to encourage private donations to keep the system going. Money talks more than letters to the Mayor, especially in hard times such as these. Quoting Louis Rugani : > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Louis Rugani > Sent: Tuesday, November 17, 2009 12:53 PM > To: harborpark at onelist.com > Subject: Streetcar crisis: > > As reported, the City of Kenosha is discussing closing the popular > downtown streetcar line entirely during January, February and March, > 2010. > > This is a very bad idea for several reasons: 34% of all tourists use > the line, and Kenosha derives $235 million a year from tourism. It > serves HarborPark, Metra, the busy downtown area, and three very > popular museums, one of which is a Smithsonian affiliate. 2009 will > be another record year for streetcar ridership, which should top > 65,000. > > Written comments are very acceptible, as are emailed comments: > > Transportation Department > City of Kenosha > 625 52nd Street > Kenosha WI 53140 > > Mr. Len Brandrup > Director of Transportation > tlenb at kenosha.org > (tlenbATkenosha.org) > > Mayor Keith Bosman > ajean at kenosha.org > (ajeandATkenosha.org) > > This is only one city official's proposal. > Please attend the official public hearing on this proposal at 4 PM > on Thursday November 20th at the Kenosha Municipal Building, 625 > 52nd Street near the Metra Station, and again at the main Budget > Hearings the first Monday in December at 7 PM in the same building. > > It matters not if you're a local resident. In fact, the City Council > is very impressed by non-residents' opinions. > > Governments look for the low hanging > fruit first. So unless riders scream, rant and rave, probably the > big switch will be pulled. > > Keep the streetcars running. Please pass this around to any > appropriate rail groups you see fit. See you there, and thanks. > > > > > > > From DLeistikow at webtv.net Wed Nov 18 20:32:46 2009 From: DLeistikow at webtv.net (Don L. Leistikow) Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2009 19:32:46 -0600 Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: Car 1141 In-Reply-To: "Ken and Tracie" 's message of Wed, 18 Nov 2009 12:09:05 -0800 Message-ID: <5816-4B04A03E-3627@storefull-3171.bay.webtv.net> Ken and list: Yup, the TMRT&S 1141 was operated on the 'third rail' as depicted in the photo. This was after the line was shut down. Note: The car is westbound on the freight line between 20th and 23rd streets, adjacent to the two track yard for freight car storage and run around purposes. Lack of headlight, already put away to prevent damage or theft. Power in overhead wire remained on, no draw, also to prevent theft. No run number, either! I've cut in Paul Fischer, to let him tell us more about this photo. Don L. From ktjosephson at embarqmail.com Thu Nov 19 06:38:25 2009 From: ktjosephson at embarqmail.com (Ken and Tracie) Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2009 03:38:25 -0800 Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Sheboygan Terminal References: <605184.84624.qm@web65505.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> <1F37E84D403D49BA8C311D47A87527FF@KTJosephson> Message-ID: Check this out. The sort of thing we Milwaukee Northern Division fans enjoy seeing:. My maternal grandfather used to use the MD service for his business. I discovered the Cedarburg bridge at age four. Have biked almost the entire line, had to bypass the viaducts and the most of the bridges, of course. -- Attached file removed by Ecartis and put at URL below -- -- Type: image/jpeg -- Size: 68k (69801 bytes) -- URL : http://lists.dementia.org/files/milwaukee-electric/thenaqndnow009.jpg From ktjosephson at embarqmail.com Thu Nov 19 07:06:54 2009 From: ktjosephson at embarqmail.com (Ken and Tracie) Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2009 04:06:54 -0800 Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: Sheboygan Terminal References: <605184.84624.qm@web65505.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> <1F37E84D403D49BA8C311D47A87527FF@KTJosephson> Message-ID: Here's the entire 8th Street side of the terminal: -- Attached file removed by Ecartis and put at URL below -- -- Type: image/jpeg -- Size: 114k (117013 bytes) -- URL : http://lists.dementia.org/files/milwaukee-electric/sheboyganterminal.jpg From ktjosephson at embarqmail.com Thu Nov 19 07:19:11 2009 From: ktjosephson at embarqmail.com (Ken and Tracie) Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2009 04:19:11 -0800 Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Another Sheboygan Terminal Comparison References: <605184.84624.qm@web65505.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> <1F37E84D403D49BA8C311D47A87527FF@KTJosephson> Message-ID: Here's a much better one. I was one window off in the last attempt: -- Attached file removed by Ecartis and put at URL below -- -- Type: image/jpeg -- Size: 58k (59480 bytes) -- URL : http://lists.dementia.org/files/milwaukee-electric/thenandnow009a.jpg From ktjosephson at embarqmail.com Thu Nov 19 07:25:52 2009 From: ktjosephson at embarqmail.com (Ken and Tracie) Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2009 04:25:52 -0800 Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Special Paint Schemes References: <605184.84624.qm@web65505.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> <1F37E84D403D49BA8C311D47A87527FF@KTJosephson> Message-ID: <6D4E3A9A4A324C17945008CBB525DCFA@KTJosephson> Various color slides of city cars: -- Attached file removed by Ecartis and put at URL below -- -- Type: image/jpeg -- Size: 93k (96173 bytes) -- URL : http://lists.dementia.org/files/milwaukee-electric/tmcity059.jpg -- Attached file removed by Ecartis and put at URL below -- -- Type: image/jpeg -- Size: 90k (92220 bytes) -- URL : http://lists.dementia.org/files/milwaukee-electric/tmcity058.jpg -- Attached file removed by Ecartis and put at URL below -- -- Type: image/jpeg -- Size: 96k (99035 bytes) -- URL : http://lists.dementia.org/files/milwaukee-electric/tmcity057.jpg -- Attached file removed by Ecartis and put at URL below -- -- Type: image/jpeg -- Size: 97k (99640 bytes) -- URL : http://lists.dementia.org/files/milwaukee-electric/tmcity012.jpg From ktjosephson at embarqmail.com Thu Nov 19 07:30:50 2009 From: ktjosephson at embarqmail.com (Ken and Tracie) Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2009 04:30:50 -0800 Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Saying Goodbye to the 500 Series Marmon-Herringtons References: <605184.84624.qm@web65505.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> <1F37E84D403D49BA8C311D47A87527FF@KTJosephson> Message-ID: <650D45503AF54EE181E8CE91CBB545E3@KTJosephson> These trackless trolleys were true "foster children." Most went from Indianapolis to Milwaukee to Mexico City. Some went from Cincinnati to Indianapolis to Milwaukee to Mexico City. K. -- Attached file removed by Ecartis and put at URL below -- -- Type: image/jpeg -- Size: 121k (123974 bytes) -- URL : http://lists.dementia.org/files/milwaukee-electric/02-tmcity016.jpg -- Attached file removed by Ecartis and put at URL below -- -- Type: image/jpeg -- Size: 105k (107812 bytes) -- URL : http://lists.dementia.org/files/milwaukee-electric/02-tmcity017.jpg -- Attached file removed by Ecartis and put at URL below -- -- Type: image/jpeg -- Size: 127k (130720 bytes) -- URL : http://lists.dementia.org/files/milwaukee-electric/tmcity018.jpg -- Attached file removed by Ecartis and put at URL below -- -- Type: image/jpeg -- Size: 108k (111494 bytes) -- URL : http://lists.dementia.org/files/milwaukee-electric/tmcity019.jpg From ktjosephson at embarqmail.com Thu Nov 19 07:54:40 2009 From: ktjosephson at embarqmail.com (Ken and Tracie) Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2009 04:54:40 -0800 Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Theory on the Fond du Lac Training Loop Message-ID: <1AC6A83CDC7A4D5AA42B85895E2202C5@KTJosephson> Okay, we all know the cars on the training loop used a negative return = wire like trackless trolleys and Cincinnati/Havana/Merrill streetcars = after the loop was isolated from the remainder of the rail system. I still do not understand why a jumper cable could not have been run = from the rails of the loop to the trackless trolleys' negative return = feeders. Does anybody know the reason the loop was converted to twin wires? = Safety concerns? Bad rail bonds on the loop?=20 I remember visiting Orange Empire during the 1990s. There was a bad rail = bond by the depot which would shoot sparks if a nearby car was drawing = power.=20 I am wondering if the rail bonds were bad and M&ST decided twin wires = was a more economical solution than restoring bonds on training trackage = which was going to be redundant within a decade?=20 Any thoughts on this? K. -- Attached file removed by Ecartis and put at URL below -- -- Type: image/jpeg -- Size: 160k (163993 bytes) -- URL : http://lists.dementia.org/files/milwaukee-electric/tmcity060.jpg From sbgreig_m1 at yahoo.com Thu Nov 19 09:07:13 2009 From: sbgreig_m1 at yahoo.com (Scott Greig) Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2009 06:07:13 -0800 (PST) Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: Theory on the Fond du Lac Training Loop In-Reply-To: <1AC6A83CDC7A4D5AA42B85895E2202C5@KTJosephson> Message-ID: <768125.70719.qm@web65505.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Wouldn't the expense of shifting one existing wire, hanging another, and modifying three cars have been greater than sending two guys in a truck with a welder and a bucket of bonds to upgrade the loop? --- On Thu, 11/19/09, Ken and Tracie wrote: From: Ken and Tracie Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Theory on the Fond du Lac Training Loop To: milwaukee-electric at lists.dementia.org Date: Thursday, November 19, 2009, 6:54 AM Content-Type: text/plain; ??? charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Okay, we all know the cars on the training loop used a negative return = wire like trackless trolleys and Cincinnati/Havana/Merrill streetcars = after the loop was isolated from the remainder of the rail system. I still do not understand why a jumper cable could not have been run = from the rails of the loop to the trackless trolleys' negative return = feeders. Does anybody know the reason the loop was converted to twin wires? = Safety concerns? Bad rail bonds on the loop?=20 I remember visiting Orange Empire during the 1990s. There was a bad rail = bond by the depot which would shoot sparks if a nearby car was drawing = power.=20 I am wondering if the rail bonds were bad and M&ST decided twin wires = was a more economical solution than restoring bonds on training trackage = which was going to be redundant within a decade?=20 Any thoughts on this? K. -- Attached file removed by Ecartis and put at URL below -- -- Type: image/jpeg -- Size: 160k (163993 bytes) -- URL : http://lists.dementia.org/files/milwaukee-electric/tmcity060.jpg From ktjosephson at embarqmail.com Thu Nov 19 09:24:00 2009 From: ktjosephson at embarqmail.com (Ken and Tracie) Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2009 06:24:00 -0800 Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: Theory on the Fond du Lac Training Loop References: <768125.70719.qm@web65505.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <9C8EE41636434223993FE0D1E2BF7FBE@KTJosephson> Probably. But assuming the bonds were good, I still believe (without knowing the facts behind the decision), the least expensive option was to run an insulated cable from the rails up a line pole, under sheathing, to the return cables for the trolley buses. BTW, study some color pictures of trackless trolley overhead construction in Milwaukee. Positive feeder cables usually used brown insulators. Negative cables usually used white insulators. TM seemed to make every effort possible to make things "idiot-proof." ;-) K. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Scott Greig" To: Sent: Thursday, November 19, 2009 6:07 AM Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: Theory on the Fond du Lac Training Loop > Wouldn't the expense of shifting one existing wire, hanging another, and > modifying three cars have been greater than sending two guys in a truck > with a welder and a bucket of bonds to upgrade the loop? > --- On Thu, 11/19/09, Ken and Tracie wrote: > > > From: Ken and Tracie > Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Theory on the Fond du Lac Training Loop > To: milwaukee-electric at lists.dementia.org > Date: Thursday, November 19, 2009, 6:54 AM > > > Content-Type: text/plain; > charset="iso-8859-1" > Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > Okay, we all know the cars on the training loop used a negative return = > wire like trackless trolleys and Cincinnati/Havana/Merrill streetcars = > after the loop was isolated from the remainder of the rail system. > > I still do not understand why a jumper cable could not have been run = > from the rails of the loop to the trackless trolleys' negative return = > feeders. > > Does anybody know the reason the loop was converted to twin wires? = > Safety concerns? Bad rail bonds on the loop?=20 > > I remember visiting Orange Empire during the 1990s. There was a bad rail = > bond by the depot which would shoot sparks if a nearby car was drawing = > power.=20 > > I am wondering if the rail bonds were bad and M&ST decided twin wires = > was a more economical solution than restoring bonds on training trackage = > which was going to be redundant within a decade?=20 > > Any thoughts on this? > > K. > > > -- Attached file removed by Ecartis and put at URL below -- > -- Type: image/jpeg > -- Size: 160k (163993 bytes) > -- URL : http://lists.dementia.org/files/milwaukee-electric/tmcity060.jpg > > > > > From DLeistikow at webtv.net Thu Nov 19 09:26:09 2009 From: DLeistikow at webtv.net (Don L. Leistikow) Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2009 08:26:09 -0600 Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: Sheboygan Terminal In-Reply-To: "Ken and Tracie" 's message of Thu, 19 Nov 2009 03:38:25 -0800 Message-ID: <12924-4B055581-90@storefull-3173.bay.webtv.net> Ken: Interesting split photo(s). About the train under the shed, note the brilliant Pullman Green color. As on the famous Pullman Sleeping Cars, the color faded badly in a short time span, becoming very dark and losing its brilliance. Many years ago, Walthers bottled this paint for the Hobby Trade, most probably from large paint pails or drums. The same thing happend on the models so, outdoor weathering had nothing to do with its fading. Phonominal, to say the least! fwiw... Don L. From x779 at webtv.net Thu Nov 19 10:29:10 2009 From: x779 at webtv.net (LouRugani) Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2009 15:29:10 -0000 Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Streetcar crisis: (today's Kenosha News) Message-ID: (Comment on this by clicking the story at www.kenoshanews.com . ) City seeks comment on proposed cuts in bus and streetcar service BY MATTHEW OLSON molsonATkenoshanews.com Some city bus routes and streetcar service may be axed as the city looks for ways to save money. The city's Transit Commission will meet at 4 p.m. Friday at the Municipal Building, 625 52nd St., to discuss the 2010 transit budget. At the meeting, the commission is seeking public comment on four proposed cuts: ? Discontinuing bus route No. 36, which stops at Southport Plaza, White Caps, Indian Trail Academy and Kenosha's industrial parks. ? Reducing route No. 6, which goes from downtown to Indian Trail, to a morning and afternoon, school-days-only route. The respective elimination and reduction of these routes is estimated to save $263,422 in labor, fuel and tire costs. Route No. 36 saw 4,920 passengers in 2008, an average of 5.6 passengers an hour. Route No. 6 saw 71,614 passengers in 2008, 42,979 of which used student passes. ? Shutting down the electric streetcars in January, February and March. ? Discontinuing all transit activities on Mondays from July 26 to Aug 23 as part of proposed furloughs for next year. The No. 36 bus was fairly quiet on Wednesday afternoon, with several students and industrial park employees riding. Patrick Smith and Rebecca Taylor both work at EMCO Chemical Distributors, 9114 58th Place, and have used this bus to get home for the last few years. Smith said not having the bus route could mean riding a bicycle to work year-round. "Obviously, that would be really difficult in the winter," Smith said. Smith said he would be willing to pay a higher fare if that meant sustaining this route. Ami Miljkovich, a student at Indian Trail, said she has relied on the route since the school year began. "This is the only bus that goes from ITA to where I kind of live," Miljkovich said. "If it weren't for this bus, I wouldn't have been able to get home the whole year." Streetcar shutdown Alderman Don Holland, chairman of the Transit Commission, said completely shutting down the streetcars for an extended period of time could have maintenance consequences. "To stop completely would cost us money to bring the streetcars back into service," Holland said. "Electrical systems in streetcars like that don't do well when they're idled, and there's some buildup of corrosion." The city estimates the shutdown would save about $65,000 in labor and energy costs. About 4,600 rides on the city's streetcar system were taken January through March this year, 2,577 of those rides in March. Kenosha Mayor Keith Bosman said the proposed furlough cuts are part of mandatory citywide furloughs. "We spread the budget solution over all of the departments because we did not want to affect one department so much that services would be drastically cut," Bosman said. "We tried to balance the budget with an avoidance of cuts for protective services, which I think we have succeeded in doing." The transit budget will be reviewed as part of the city's complete operating budget by the Finance Committee at 5 p.m. Monday. ? Copyright Kenosha News. From msa_vianney at hotmail.com Thu Nov 19 17:30:56 2009 From: msa_vianney at hotmail.com (Matthew Austin) Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2009 09:30:56 +1100 Subject: [milwaukee-electric] This and that In-Reply-To: <12924-4B055581-90@storefull-3173.bay.webtv.net> References: "Ken and Tracie" 's message of Thu, 19 Nov 2009 03:38:25 -0800,<12924-4B055581-90@storefull-3173.bay.webtv.net> Message-ID: Thanks gents, Don, I'm intrigued about the 1141 trip. I'm guessing that someone ran a trip using this car after operations closed without permission? I'd be fascinated to hear what happened, almost sixty years ago. Thanks for the Sheboygan pics. I'm impressed to see that at least one interurban terminal building still exists. To have the PSB and at least one other terminal building is pretty good, sixty-odd years after closure. Are any car barns still standing? Just curious, how long did the limited operations at Cold Springs last? Into the Sixties I'm guessing? Cheers, Matt _________________________________________________________________ For more of what happens online Head to the Daily Blob on Windows Live http://windowslive.ninemsn.com.au/blog.aspx From sbgreig_m1 at yahoo.com Thu Nov 19 18:27:03 2009 From: sbgreig_m1 at yahoo.com (Scott Greig) Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2009 15:27:03 -0800 (PST) Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: This and that In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <195356.42356.qm@web65501.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> --- On Thu, 11/19/09, Matthew Austin wrote: From: Matthew Austin Subject: [milwaukee-electric] This and that To: "Milwaukee list Milwaukee list" Date: Thursday, November 19, 2009, 4:30 PM Thanks gents, Don, I'm intrigued about the 1141 trip. I'm guessing that someone ran a trip using this car after operations closed without permission? I'd be fascinated to hear what happened, almost sixty years ago. Don can tell the story better than I...basically, a local fan had some out-of-town railfan friends coming to town to catch a ride on Speedrail; unfortunately, the line had shut down by the time they arrived.? Not to be deterred, they went down to 10th/12th Street to look at the idled cars...one of them tried the door on 1141, at the west end of the line, and found it to be open.? They climbed aboard to look around the inside of the car...one of the group found a brake handle aboard the car, another put the pole up and found the wire (and compressor) live, and another twiddled with the controller for fun and managed to throw the reverse drum into forward position.? When the pump shut off, one of the out-of-town fans suggested they try moving the car; the local fan was reluctant, but was goaded into it by everyone else.? "Moving" it a few feet turned into moving it a little more, then some more...then they were heading west down the freight track!? By the time they reached the end of track at 27th Street the reality of getting caught had settled in to everyone, and when the car came to a halt the group bailed and left it there. Thanks for the Sheboygan pics. I'm impressed to see that at least one interurban terminal building still exists. To have the PSB and at least one other terminal building is pretty good, sixty-odd years after closure. Are any car barns still standing? Fiebrantz, Fond du Lac and Kinnickinnic Car Stations are still standing and in use, however I believe original building survive only at the first two. Just curious, how long did the limited operations at Cold Springs last? Into the Sixties I'm guessing? About 1965, I think.? An interesting detail of this service is that the last car shown as retired from TMER&T's books was wrecker W-1, in 1961 or 62.? Dump motor D-15 and crane D-16 were in use to the end, and I have never found an official asset retirement date for them. ??? ???????? ?????? ??? ? _________________________________________________________________ For more of what happens online Head to the Daily Blob on Windows Live http://windowslive.ninemsn.com.au/blog.aspx From msa_vianney at hotmail.com Thu Nov 19 19:06:59 2009 From: msa_vianney at hotmail.com (Matthew Austin) Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2009 11:06:59 +1100 Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: This and that In-Reply-To: <195356.42356.qm@web65501.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> References: ,<195356.42356.qm@web65501.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Thanks Scott, That's fascinating. I'm guessing that that was the last move of an 1100 with passengers, albeit unofficially? Was the photo taken after all and sundry 'abandoned ship'? I'd love to have seen the look on the face of the bloke who found it! The 1100s are still my all-time favourite interurban. I'm working on an improved version for simulation use. I've learnt alot about 3D model building since the first one I did. Cheers, Matt _________________________________________________________________ Looking for a date? View photos of singles in your area! http://clk.atdmt.com/NMN/go/150855801/direct/01/ From sbgreig_m1 at yahoo.com Thu Nov 19 19:33:26 2009 From: sbgreig_m1 at yahoo.com (Scott Greig) Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2009 16:33:26 -0800 (PST) Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: This and that In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <365027.22948.qm@web65508.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Probably so in Milwaukee, unless somebody got to ride one of the drag moves to the gravel pit in early '52. --- On Thu, 11/19/09, Matthew Austin wrote: From: Matthew Austin Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: This and that To: "Milwaukee list Milwaukee list" Date: Thursday, November 19, 2009, 6:06 PM Thanks Scott, That's fascinating. I'm guessing that that was the last move of an 1100 with passengers, albeit unofficially? Was the photo taken after all and sundry 'abandoned ship'? I'd love to have seen the look on the face of the bloke who found it! The 1100s are still my all-time favourite interurban. I'm working on an improved version for simulation use. I've learnt alot about 3D model building since the first one I did. Cheers, Matt ??? ???????? ?????? ??? ? _________________________________________________________________ Looking for a date? View photos of singles in your area! http://clk.atdmt.com/NMN/go/150855801/direct/01/ From msa_vianney at hotmail.com Thu Nov 19 19:53:32 2009 From: msa_vianney at hotmail.com (Matthew Austin) Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2009 11:53:32 +1100 Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: This and that In-Reply-To: <365027.22948.qm@web65508.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> References: ,<365027.22948.qm@web65508.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Ah yes, I didn't think to mention London and Port Stanley. I'm grateful for the fact that Port Stanley lasted long enough to ensure two 1100s would be able to be preserved. I've seen a pic of the other L&PS ex-parlor car as a lakeside cabin, so that's three still about, one way or another. Some years ago, I had an email conversation with Jay Maeder Jr who told me that 1138 (I think) lasted into the 60s back home in Ohio, gradually getting rusty. I can't help but think of Jay Maeder as a man ahead of his time who may have had a different life had things gone another way. Much to think about. I'd be interested in the opinions of the possibility of a future for Speedrail had Labor Day gone differently. Would they have been squeezed out by demands for land for expressways? I have Larry Sakar's book, but I'd be interested in the thoughts of those of you who have also studied or experienced it for yourselves. Cheers, Matt _________________________________________________________________ For more of what happens online Head to the Daily Blob on Windows Live http://windowslive.ninemsn.com.au/blog.aspx From sbgreig_m1 at yahoo.com Thu Nov 19 20:33:56 2009 From: sbgreig_m1 at yahoo.com (Scott Greig) Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2009 17:33:56 -0800 (PST) Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: This and that Message-ID: <206590.27428.qm@web65516.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> --- On Thu, 11/19/09, Matthew Austin wrote: From: Matthew Austin Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: This and that To: "Milwaukee list Milwaukee list" Date: Thursday, November 19, 2009, 6:53 PM Some years ago, I had an email conversation with Jay Maeder Jr who told me that 1138 (I think) lasted into the 60s back home in Ohio, gradually getting rusty. I can't help but think of Jay Maeder as a man ahead of his time who may have had a different life had things gone another way. I have a few pictures of 1138 arriving in Ohio and being transported to Maeder's property.? It was there into the very early 60s, I think as a playroom for his kids.? Circa 1958-59 it was stripped by Illinois Railway Museum to provide parts for their two 1100s.? They would have loved to bring back the entire car, but the head of Chicago Hardware Foundry refused to allow any carbodies (i.e. without trucks) on Foundry property. Much to think about. I'd be interested in the opinions of the possibility of a future for Speedrail had Labor Day gone differently. Would they have been squeezed out by demands for land for expressways? I have Larry Sakar's book, but I'd be interested in the thoughts of those of you who have also studied or experienced it for yourselves. I think it would have lasted a few more years--probably enough to ensure that more cars were preserved--but it would ultimately have failed regardless.? Milwaukee at that time was embracing daily auto travel over public transit, they wanted a freeway to compete with Chicago to the south, and the west side highway authorities wanted the Rapid Transit Line's RoW in the worst way.? Moreover, as people moved from urban Milwaukee to the suburbs, had they wanted to reverse-commute and drive to a Rapid Transit station to ride into the city, Speedrail had no provisions for commuter parking or the means to acquire land.? Maeder had been forced to take the bills for the Soldiers' Home crash along with the railroad, and that debt was a major financial Sword of Damacles hanging over the property. What I consider saddest about Maeder, and the events of Labor Day, was that so much disaster and pain could have been prevented had he either left the planning to a professional (Tennyson), or recognized how late he was that morning, and taken a few minutes to pull off the railroad and call in for new orders. ? ? From DLeistikow at webtv.net Thu Nov 19 21:15:36 2009 From: DLeistikow at webtv.net (Don L. Leistikow) Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2009 20:15:36 -0600 Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: This and that In-Reply-To: Matthew Austin 's message of Fri, 20 Nov 2009 09:30:56 +1100 Message-ID: <5821-4B05FBC8-1901@storefull-3171.bay.webtv.net> Matt Austin and list: You're right about a phantom operation of TM/Speedrail car 1141. My old friend, Paul Fischer will be answering that question. Ken's offering of those many photos is very pleasing and I enjoyed them too! As for existing buildings, haven't check into this for many years but, my guess is that the operational Car Stations of today are Fiebrantz, Fond du Lac and KK. If I'm wrong, someone please correct me. Again, off the cuff, I believe that the Cold Spring Shops was closed sometime after the end of Trackless Trolley service in 1965. Good to hear from you again, Matt! Don L. From sbgreig_m1 at yahoo.com Thu Nov 19 21:22:00 2009 From: sbgreig_m1 at yahoo.com (Scott Greig) Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2009 18:22:00 -0800 (PST) Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: This and that In-Reply-To: <5821-4B05FBC8-1901@storefull-3171.bay.webtv.net> Message-ID: <813290.45161.qm@web65501.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Wasn't Cold Spring used for unit rebuild work after its days as an inspection and rebuild shop ended? --- On Thu, 11/19/09, Don L. Leistikow wrote: From: Don L. Leistikow Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: This and that To: milwaukee-electric at lists.dementia.org Date: Thursday, November 19, 2009, 8:15 PM Matt Austin and list:???You're right about a phantom operation of TM/Speedrail car 1141.???My old friend, Paul Fischer will be answering that question.? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ??? Ken's offering of those many photos is very pleasing and I enjoyed them too!? As for existing buildings, haven't check into this for many years but, my guess is that the operational Car Stations of today are Fiebrantz, Fond du Lac and KK.? If I'm wrong, someone please correct me.? ? ? ? ? Again, off the cuff, I believe that the Cold Spring Shops was closed sometime after the end of Trackless Trolley service in 1965.? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? Good to hear from you again, Matt!? ? ? ? ??? Don L.? ??? From DLeistikow at webtv.net Thu Nov 19 21:50:57 2009 From: DLeistikow at webtv.net (Don L. Leistikow) Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2009 20:50:57 -0600 Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: This and that In-Reply-To: Scott Greig 's message of Thu, 19 Nov 2009 15:27:03 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <5818-4B060411-3824@storefull-3171.bay.webtv.net> Scott G and list: Close.... all of the 1100 passenger cars that remained on the property at the end of operations, were brought down from Oakland Car Station on the Sunday before. They were stored at the 20th Street Team Tracks, adjacent to the 'third rail', or freight line. That trackage extended from 20th street to the west end at 23rd street where the Milwaukee Gas Light Company holders stood. Utility cars were stored on the westbound mainline between 8th and 10th streets, to protect passenger cars on the eastbound track and those cars stored on the subway entrance run-around tracks. No cars were stored on the deck, nor under it as that property was not owned by Speedrail. When the Speedrail cars were set, the westbound main track was still vacant for the final movements. The D21 Line Car was spotted on the west end of the run-around trackage at the top of the grade so-as-to-be available for immediate use ..... whatever! The final movement from the PSB was the 1144 pulling the E 56 flat car, loaded with brake shoes etc., from the pits of the PSB. That occured on the Wednesday after service was discontinued. As I recall, Bob Bykowski and I were the crew on that final movement. After that, the 1144 and E 56 were backed down to the Deck entrance track and there they remained until orders were made to begin scrapping. Final closure was the movement of the Utility cars which were backed down on the westbound main to fill in as a buffer to stone throwing by kids from Hibernia Street. The 1141 was placed at 20th street along with the other cars from Oakland and stayed there. From ktjosephson at embarqmail.com Sat Nov 21 09:59:42 2009 From: ktjosephson at embarqmail.com (Ken and Tracie) Date: Sat, 21 Nov 2009 06:59:42 -0800 Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Another "Then and Now" References: <5821-4B05FBC8-1901@storefull-3171.bay.webtv.net> Message-ID: Courtesy of Larry Allan: I will be putting up a page of these sort of images on the website. Also, a commentary by Rick Murphy. But I have a special surprise for all you Rapid Transit fans who like seeing remnants of TMER&L I will be posting those first. K. -- Attached file removed by Ecartis and put at URL below -- -- Type: image/jpeg -- Size: 101k (103468 bytes) -- URL : http://lists.dementia.org/files/milwaukee-electric/thenandnowwatertown.jpg From DLeistikow at webtv.net Sat Nov 21 10:24:50 2009 From: DLeistikow at webtv.net (Don L. Leistikow) Date: Sat, 21 Nov 2009 09:24:50 -0600 Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: Another "Then and Now" In-Reply-To: "Ken and Tracie" 's message of Sat, 21 Nov 2009 06:59:42 -0800 Message-ID: <23835-4B080642-2474@storefull-3172.bay.webtv.net> Ken: FWIW.... if dates are known, please post same. The Milwaukee Limited car is the 1116, beginning its trek back to the Beer City. Meanwhile, I like your 'Then and Now' presentations. Good work. Don L. From ktjosephson at embarqmail.com Sat Nov 21 10:47:28 2009 From: ktjosephson at embarqmail.com (Ken and Tracie) Date: Sat, 21 Nov 2009 07:47:28 -0800 Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: Another "Then and Now" References: <23835-4B080642-2474@storefull-3172.bay.webtv.net> Message-ID: <5F5F7AAEB793424188D4C0440D4BC061@KTJosephson> Thanks, Don, but Larry Allan made this one. And without his present-day photography, we couldn't make any. K. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Don L. Leistikow" To: Sent: Saturday, November 21, 2009 7:24 AM Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: Another "Then and Now" > Ken: FWIW.... if dates are known, please post same. The Milwaukee > Limited car is the 1116, beginning its trek back to the Beer City. > Meanwhile, I like your 'Then and Now' presentations. Good work. > > Don L. > > From lallan45 at gmail.com Sat Nov 21 19:15:31 2009 From: lallan45 at gmail.com (Larry Allan) Date: Sat, 21 Nov 2009 18:15:31 -0600 Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: Another "Then and Now" In-Reply-To: <5F5F7AAEB793424188D4C0440D4BC061@KTJosephson> References: <23835-4B080642-2474@storefull-3172.bay.webtv.net> <5F5F7AAEB793424188D4C0440D4BC061@KTJosephson> Message-ID: The "Now" photo was taken just a day ago, 11-20-09. I was on business two blocks away. It was starting to get dark, so I took this quick shot. I should have taken some of the road, as you can see the pavement cracks over the Rails. The city appears to be working it's way West with road resurfacing and may soon be to this area. The "Then" photo is from Ken's GREAT website. I do not know the date of the photo. Larry Allan On 11/21/09, Ken and Tracie wrote: > Thanks, Don, but Larry Allan made this one. And without his present-day > photography, we couldn't make any. > > K. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Don L. Leistikow" > To: > Sent: Saturday, November 21, 2009 7:24 AM > Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: Another "Then and Now" > > >> Ken: FWIW.... if dates are known, please post same. The Milwaukee >> Limited car is the 1116, beginning its trek back to the Beer City. >> Meanwhile, I like your 'Then and Now' presentations. Good work. >> >> Don L. >> >> > > > From ktjosephson at embarqmail.com Mon Nov 23 04:12:01 2009 From: ktjosephson at embarqmail.com (Ken and Tracie) Date: Mon, 23 Nov 2009 01:12:01 -0800 Subject: [milwaukee-electric] The Lost Staircase References: <5821-4B05FBC8-1901@storefull-3171.bay.webtv.net> Message-ID: <156ADA0B4FE242718FA055B5C2E7A593@KTJosephson> Larry Allan took some photos of the "Lost Staircase" at 124th St. on the line to Waukesha. Larrry suspects this may have been the Greenfield Park Stop He took these photos on May 6th, 2009. Pretty cool that this still exists. I added these images to the website. K. -- Attached file removed by Ecartis and put at URL below -- -- Type: image/jpeg -- Size: 229k (235068 bytes) -- URL : http://lists.dementia.org/files/milwaukee-electric/relic124th01.jpg -- Attached file removed by Ecartis and put at URL below -- -- Type: image/jpeg -- Size: 169k (173686 bytes) -- URL : http://lists.dementia.org/files/milwaukee-electric/relic124th02.jpg -- Attached file removed by Ecartis and put at URL below -- -- Type: image/jpeg -- Size: 134k (138077 bytes) -- URL : http://lists.dementia.org/files/milwaukee-electric/relic124th03.jpg From DLeistikow at webtv.net Mon Nov 23 13:00:22 2009 From: DLeistikow at webtv.net (Don L. Leistikow) Date: Mon, 23 Nov 2009 12:00:22 -0600 Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: The Lost Staircase at 124th Street In-Reply-To: "Ken and Tracie" 's message of Mon, 23 Nov 2009 01:12:01 -0800 Message-ID: <23717-4B0ACDB6-1014@storefull-3171.bay.webtv.net> Good Shots by Larry Allen...... For the record: The Stop was known as County Line Road, and so announced by the Conductor on the westbound trips. In those days, the great prepondurance of ridership was inbound in the morning and outbound in the afternoon rushhours. Therefore, no stop calling was offered in the opposing direction of travel until reaching 35th, 27th and 16th streets for those passengers wishing to disembark. Although Golfers did use the Rapid Transit Lines to the Brown Deer and Town of Greenfield Park (now in West Allis-124th street), that ridership faded out with the oncoming highway improvements and the Ford Model A automobile mass production of the '30's. Commuter traffic did continue to rise into the WW 2 era. Gas Rationing (an A Sticker got you four gallons per week during the conflict) forced the travelling public to public transportation for the duration of the War. Don L. From ktjosephson at embarqmail.com Mon Nov 23 15:25:51 2009 From: ktjosephson at embarqmail.com (Ken and Tracie) Date: Mon, 23 Nov 2009 12:25:51 -0800 Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: The Lost Staircase at 124th Street References: <23717-4B0ACDB6-1014@storefull-3171.bay.webtv.net> Message-ID: <2A42CA2BD8D545CE83CA068A635C877C@KTJosephson> Thanks for the information, Don. I have identified the location as County Line Road stop. K. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Don L. Leistikow" To: Cc: Sent: Monday, November 23, 2009 10:00 AM Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: The Lost Staircase at 124th Street > Good Shots by Larry Allen...... > > For the record: The Stop was known as County Line Road, and so > announced by the Conductor on the westbound trips. > > In those days, the great prepondurance of ridership was inbound in the > morning and outbound in the afternoon rushhours. Therefore, no stop > calling was offered in the opposing direction of travel until reaching > 35th, 27th and 16th streets for those passengers wishing to disembark. > > Although Golfers did use the Rapid Transit Lines to the Brown Deer and > Town of Greenfield Park (now in West Allis-124th street), that ridership > faded out with the oncoming highway improvements and the Ford Model A > automobile mass production of the '30's. Commuter traffic did continue > to rise into the WW 2 era. Gas Rationing (an A Sticker got you four > gallons per week during the conflict) forced the travelling public to > public transportation for the duration of the War. > > Don L. > > From msa_vianney at hotmail.com Mon Nov 23 16:33:09 2009 From: msa_vianney at hotmail.com (Matthew Austin) Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2009 08:33:09 +1100 Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: This and that In-Reply-To: <5818-4B060411-3824@storefull-3171.bay.webtv.net> References: Scott Greig 's message of Thu, 19 Nov Message-ID: Gents, Thanks very much for the fascinating information you're sharing. I'm picking up more about TM as I go. Thanks also for being so welcoming to a bloke from across the world. I'm enjoying Google Maps as it gives me the chance to see a bit of Milwaukee as it is now. I've been able to get some dimensions for my trainsim project. Just now I've managed to 'measure' the PSB for modelling purposes, and I've attached the pic. I cut and pasted the measure scale from the corner to get approximate distances. I'm wondering whether anyone has some hi-res pics of the PSB as it is now? They don't have to be taken straight on as I have perspective-correcting tools. Streetview is great, it makes me feel like I'm there; http://maps.google.com.au/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=milwaukee+wisconsin&sll=-25.335448,135.745076&sspn=67.828207,134.736328&ie=UTF8&hq=&hnear=Milwaukee,+Wisconsin,+United+States&ll=43.037407,-87.914652&spn=0.001717,0.005134&t=h&z=19&layer=c&cbll=43.037407,-87.914766&panoid=edNcEVaVRKgW2odCh_4UOA&cbp=12,128.49,,0,-7.6 Cheers, Matt _________________________________________________________________ Looking for a date? View photos of singles in your area! http://clk.atdmt.com/NMN/go/150855801/direct/01/ -- Attached file removed by Ecartis and put at URL below -- -- Type: image/jpeg -- Size: 60k (61554 bytes) -- URL : http://lists.dementia.org/files/milwaukee-electric/PSB.jpg From ktjosephson at embarqmail.com Mon Nov 23 17:23:37 2009 From: ktjosephson at embarqmail.com (Ken and Tracie) Date: Mon, 23 Nov 2009 14:23:37 -0800 Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: This and that References: Scott Greig 's message of Thu, 19 Nov Message-ID: <5B9BB68FDA5F4AE89732E5CB47E443B3@KTJosephson> How big is your server's mailbox, Matt? I have a bunch Larry took a few years back. K. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Matthew Austin" To: "Milwaukee list Milwaukee list" Sent: Monday, November 23, 2009 1:33 PM Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: This and that > Gents, > > Thanks very much for the fascinating information you're sharing. I'm > picking up more about TM as I go. Thanks also for being so welcoming to a > bloke from across the world. > > I'm enjoying Google Maps as it gives me the chance to see a bit of > Milwaukee as it is now. I've been able to get some dimensions for my > trainsim project. Just now I've managed to 'measure' the PSB for modelling > purposes, and I've attached the pic. I cut and pasted the measure scale > from the corner to get approximate distances. > > I'm wondering whether anyone has some hi-res pics of the PSB as it is now? > They don't have to be taken straight on as I have perspective-correcting > tools. > > Streetview is great, it makes me feel like I'm there; > > http://maps.google.com.au/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=milwaukee+wisconsin&sll=-25.335448,135.745076&sspn=67.828207,134.736328&ie=UTF8&hq=&hnear=Milwaukee,+Wisconsin,+United+States&ll=43.037407,-87.914652&spn=0.001717,0.005134&t=h&z=19&layer=c&cbll=43.037407,-87.914766&panoid=edNcEVaVRKgW2odCh_4UOA&cbp=12,128.49,,0,-7.6 > > Cheers, > Matt > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > Looking for a date? View photos of singles in your area! > http://clk.atdmt.com/NMN/go/150855801/direct/01/ > > -- Attached file removed by Ecartis and put at URL below -- > -- Type: image/jpeg > -- Size: 60k (61554 bytes) > -- URL : http://lists.dementia.org/files/milwaukee-electric/PSB.jpg > > > From ktjosephson at embarqmail.com Mon Nov 23 17:43:28 2009 From: ktjosephson at embarqmail.com (Ken and Tracie) Date: Mon, 23 Nov 2009 14:43:28 -0800 Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Public Saervice Building References: Scott Greig 's message of Thu, 19 Nov <5B9BB68FDA5F4AE89732E5CB47E443B3@KTJosephson> Message-ID: Here's one: -- Attached file removed by Ecartis and put at URL below -- -- Type: image/jpeg -- Size: 91k (93328 bytes) -- URL : http://lists.dementia.org/files/milwaukee-electric/relics001b.jpg From DLeistikow at webtv.net Mon Nov 23 17:55:15 2009 From: DLeistikow at webtv.net (Don L. Leistikow) Date: Mon, 23 Nov 2009 16:55:15 -0600 Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: This and that In-Reply-To: Matthew Austin 's message of Tue, 24 Nov 2009 08:33:09 +1100 Message-ID: <8267-4B0B12D3-311@storefull-3173.bay.webtv.net> Matt: Your referencing of a Google Map on Milwaukee, is interesting, although not really detailed. Odd that US 14 (Shield) is on the map but, not in Milwaukee on Michigan Street. Not in Milwaukee, at all. The oval circled numbered streets, are Wisconsin State Highways, such as 32. The Shield numbered roads are all US highways, Don L. From DLeistikow at webtv.net Mon Nov 23 18:10:36 2009 From: DLeistikow at webtv.net (Don L. Leistikow) Date: Mon, 23 Nov 2009 17:10:36 -0600 Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: Public Saervice Building In-Reply-To: "Ken and Tracie" 's message of Mon, 23 Nov 2009 14:43:28 -0800 Message-ID: <8251-4B0B166C-7258@storefull-3173.bay.webtv.net> Ken and list: Wonderful photo, retouched though but, well done. The building had been thoroughly cleaned up via necessary measures to restore it to its original appearance.. Your looking SW at the 2nd & Michigan corner of the Building. The first three train doors are where the inbound Rapid Transit Cars entered the Terminal section. Tracks 5 & 6 had pits for inspection and light repairs. The remaining doors are for the additional work of the same nature and all tracks had inspection pits, as well. For the Record, this facility was known as Central Car Station. TMER&L refered to all such facilities as Car Stations... not Car Barns. Don L. From ktjosephson at embarqmail.com Mon Nov 23 22:44:45 2009 From: ktjosephson at embarqmail.com (Ken and Tracie) Date: Mon, 23 Nov 2009 19:44:45 -0800 Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: Public Saervice Building References: <8251-4B0B166C-7258@storefull-3173.bay.webtv.net> Message-ID: <0101787ABFEF424090D7F5ACCFD491B6@KTJosephson> I wanted to try for that "postcard look." Here's another "before and After", using one of Larry's recent pictures. K. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Don L. Leistikow" > Ken and list: Wonderful photo, retouched though but, well done. The > building had been thoroughly cleaned up via necessary measures to > restore it to its original appearance.. -- Attached file removed by Ecartis and put at URL below -- -- Type: image/jpeg -- Size: 91k (94086 bytes) -- URL : http://lists.dementia.org/files/milwaukee-electric/thenandnowwellsst.jpg From sunrise at bikethehoan.com Mon Nov 23 22:49:56 2009 From: sunrise at bikethehoan.com (William Sell) Date: Mon, 23 Nov 2009 21:49:56 -0600 Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: Public Saervice Building In-Reply-To: <0101787ABFEF424090D7F5ACCFD491B6@KTJosephson> References: <8251-4B0B166C-7258@storefull-3173.bay.webtv.net> <0101787ABFEF424090D7F5ACCFD491B6@KTJosephson> Message-ID: <4b0b57ea.9753f10a.5eea.fffff02b@mx.google.com> What is the location of this building? At 09:44 PM 11/23/2009, Ken and Tracie wrote: >I wanted to try for that "postcard look." >Here's another "before and After", using one of Larry's recent pictures. > >K. > > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Don L. Leistikow" > > > > Ken and list: Wonderful photo, retouched though but, well done. The > > building had been thoroughly cleaned up via necessary measures to > > restore it to its original appearance.. > >-- Attached file removed by Ecartis and put at URL below -- >-- Type: image/jpeg >-- Size: 91k (94086 bytes) >-- URL : >http://lists.dementia.org/files/milwaukee-electric/thenandnowwellsst.jpg ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^. "Let us put our minds together, and see what life we will make for our children." ---Tatanka-Iyotanka (Sitting Bull) --- Hunkpapa Lakota chief From DLeistikow at webtv.net Tue Nov 24 09:43:47 2009 From: DLeistikow at webtv.net (Don L. Leistikow) Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2009 08:43:47 -0600 Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: 37th & Wells on PROW In-Reply-To: "Ken and Tracie" 's message of Mon, 23 Nov 2009 19:44:45 -0800 Message-ID: <23716-4B0BF123-1930@storefull-3171.bay.webtv.net> Ken and list: The two westbound cars are likely two Charter Cars that were plying the WELLS line on the final day of operation or ... the weekend before. As I recall, the 966 and 972 were so used as many photos were taken of them, notably on the Wauwatosa prow alondside the MILW Road between 72nd and Harwood. There are two clues to such Charters, mainly the lack of a Run Number and a blank Route Sign although, on request, the motorman would crank in a Route Number, ususally number 10 for a photographer. Then there were the rare but occassional requests from a photographer, for a Route Sign number other than that which would apply to the photo location. Controversy would then develop among serious photographers and historians as to where the photo was taken. Notably, the 500 class car with a 23(?) Route Number, that was photographed at End of Line on Route 40. Don L. From sbgreig_m1 at yahoo.com Mon Nov 23 23:01:59 2009 From: sbgreig_m1 at yahoo.com (Scott Greig) Date: Mon, 23 Nov 2009 20:01:59 -0800 (PST) Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: Public Saervice Building In-Reply-To: <0101787ABFEF424090D7F5ACCFD491B6@KTJosephson> Message-ID: <50793.59722.qm@web65503.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> This is 37th & Wells, right?? I wonder if that old TMER&L Co. manhole cover I spotted near there in '95 is still around. --- On Mon, 11/23/09, Ken and Tracie wrote: From: Ken and Tracie Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: Public Saervice Building To: milwaukee-electric at lists.dementia.org Date: Monday, November 23, 2009, 9:44 PM I wanted to try for that "postcard look." Here's another "before and After", using one of Larry's recent pictures. K. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Don L. Leistikow" > Ken and list:???Wonderful photo, retouched though but, well done.? The > building had been thoroughly cleaned up via necessary measures to > restore it to its original appearance..? ? -- Attached file removed by Ecartis and put at URL below -- -- Type: image/jpeg -- Size: 91k (94086 bytes) -- URL : http://lists.dementia.org/files/milwaukee-electric/thenandnowwellsst.jpg From ktjosephson at embarqmail.com Tue Nov 24 02:18:27 2009 From: ktjosephson at embarqmail.com (Ken and Tracie) Date: Mon, 23 Nov 2009 23:18:27 -0800 Subject: [milwaukee-electric] June 19th, 1965 References: <8251-4B0B166C-7258@storefull-3173.bay.webtv.net> Message-ID: >From the last full day of scheduled trackless trolley service. This transfer was once part of the late Bill Nedden's collection. It came to me by way of a fan in Southern California, along with Bill's snapshots of trackless trolley 428 on its final scheduled trip from the Southside to Downtown. -- Attached file removed by Ecartis and put at URL below -- -- Type: image/jpeg -- Size: 87k (89932 bytes) -- URL : http://lists.dementia.org/files/milwaukee-electric/mst0120.jpg From lallan45 at gmail.com Tue Nov 24 13:59:42 2009 From: lallan45 at gmail.com (Larry Allan) Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2009 12:59:42 -0600 Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: Public Saervice Building In-Reply-To: <50793.59722.qm@web65503.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> References: <0101787ABFEF424090D7F5ACCFD491B6@KTJosephson> <50793.59722.qm@web65503.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: To William Sell and others. Ken has some pictures of this building on his Website/Relics Page. On 11/23/09, Scott Greig wrote: > This is 37th & Wells, right?? I wonder if that old TMER&L Co. manhole cover > I spotted near there in '95 is still around. > --- On Mon, 11/23/09, Ken and Tracie wrote: > > From: Ken and Tracie > Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: Public Saervice Building > To: milwaukee-electric at lists.dementia.org > Date: Monday, November 23, 2009, 9:44 PM > > I wanted to try for that "postcard look." > Here's another "before and After", using one of Larry's recent pictures. > > K. > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Don L. Leistikow" > > >> Ken and list:???Wonderful photo, retouched though but, well done.? The >> building had been thoroughly cleaned up via necessary measures to >> restore it to its original appearance.. > > -- Attached file removed by Ecartis and put at URL below -- > -- Type: image/jpeg > -- Size: 91k (94086 bytes) > -- URL : > http://lists.dementia.org/files/milwaukee-electric/thenandnowwellsst.jpg > > > > > > From lallan45 at gmail.com Tue Nov 24 14:32:44 2009 From: lallan45 at gmail.com (Larry Allan) Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2009 13:32:44 -0600 Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: Public Saervice Building In-Reply-To: <50793.59722.qm@web65503.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> References: <0101787ABFEF424090D7F5ACCFD491B6@KTJosephson> <50793.59722.qm@web65503.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Scott: I will look for the manhole on my next visit to the area. Give me a better location to look for it. Larry. Does it look like this one which is located near the Hawley Rd. PROW. see attached picture. On 11/23/09, Scott Greig wrote: > This is 37th & Wells, right? I wonder if that old TMER&L Co. manhole cover > I spotted near there in '95 is still around. > --- On Mon, 11/23/09, Ken and Tracie wrote: > > From: Ken and Tracie > Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: Public Saervice Building > To: milwaukee-electric at lists.dementia.org > Date: Monday, November 23, 2009, 9:44 PM > > I wanted to try for that "postcard look." > Here's another "before and After", using one of Larry's recent pictures. > > K. > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Don L. Leistikow" > > >> Ken and list: Wonderful photo, retouched though but, well done. The >> building had been thoroughly cleaned up via necessary measures to >> restore it to its original appearance.. > > -- Attached file removed by Ecartis and put at URL below -- > -- Type: image/jpeg > -- Size: 91k (94086 bytes) > -- URL : > http://lists.dementia.org/files/milwaukee-electric/thenandnowwellsst.jpg > > > > > > -- Attached file removed by Ecartis and put at URL below -- -- Type: image/jpeg -- Size: 902k (923761 bytes) -- URL : http://lists.dementia.org/files/milwaukee-electric/IMG_2913.JPG From ktjosephson at embarqmail.com Tue Nov 24 15:01:30 2009 From: ktjosephson at embarqmail.com (Ken and Tracie) Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2009 12:01:30 -0800 Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: Public Service Building References: <0101787ABFEF424090D7F5ACCFD491B6@KTJosephson> <50793.59722.qm@web65503.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: More pix: -- Attached file removed by Ecartis and put at URL below -- -- Type: image/jpeg -- Size: 143k (146597 bytes) -- URL : http://lists.dementia.org/files/milwaukee-electric/psb002.jpg -- Attached file removed by Ecartis and put at URL below -- -- Type: image/jpeg -- Size: 103k (105715 bytes) -- URL : http://lists.dementia.org/files/milwaukee-electric/psb003.jpg -- Attached file removed by Ecartis and put at URL below -- -- Type: image/jpeg -- Size: 106k (108649 bytes) -- URL : http://lists.dementia.org/files/milwaukee-electric/psb004.jpg -- Attached file removed by Ecartis and put at URL below -- -- Type: image/jpeg -- Size: 122k (125685 bytes) -- URL : http://lists.dementia.org/files/milwaukee-electric/psb007.jpg -- Attached file removed by Ecartis and put at URL below -- -- Type: image/jpeg -- Size: 123k (126560 bytes) -- URL : http://lists.dementia.org/files/milwaukee-electric/psb008.jpg From lallan45 at gmail.com Tue Nov 24 17:12:39 2009 From: lallan45 at gmail.com (Larry Allan) Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2009 16:12:39 -0600 Subject: [milwaukee-electric] A little "Where Is It GAME".... Message-ID: A little Fun on TM Relics. Does anyone want to give guess to the location? -- Attached file removed by Ecartis and put at URL below -- -- Type: image/jpeg -- Size: 56k (57613 bytes) -- URL : http://lists.dementia.org/files/milwaukee-electric/whereisitgame.jpg From sbgreig_m1 at yahoo.com Tue Nov 24 17:22:21 2009 From: sbgreig_m1 at yahoo.com (Scott Greig) Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2009 14:22:21 -0800 (PST) Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: A little "Where Is It GAME".... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <632736.88349.qm@web65507.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Hmm...someplace along the Muskego Lakes division? --- On Tue, 11/24/09, Larry Allan wrote: From: Larry Allan Subject: [milwaukee-electric] A little "Where Is It GAME".... To: milwaukee-electric at lists.dementia.org Date: Tuesday, November 24, 2009, 4:12 PM A little Fun on TM Relics. Does anyone want to give guess to the location? -- Attached file removed by Ecartis and put at URL below -- -- Type: image/jpeg -- Size: 56k (57613 bytes) -- URL : http://lists.dementia.org/files/milwaukee-electric/whereisitgame.jpg From DLeistikow at webtv.net Tue Nov 24 17:31:46 2009 From: DLeistikow at webtv.net (Don L. Leistikow) Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2009 16:31:46 -0600 Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: A little "Where Is It GAME".... In-Reply-To: Larry Allan 's message of Tue, 24 Nov 2009 16:12:39 -0600 Message-ID: <23839-4B0C5ED2-4815@storefull-3172.bay.webtv.net> Larry A: The photo is of a concrete culvert, built to double track specification width, on the trackage between Hales Corners and St. Martins, if my memory serves me correctly. The location is west of the former HC turning loop, then known as Hillcrest. Follow the WEPCO Line Poles to find it. Off the cuff, I'm thinking that there is another one west of St.Martins on the East Troy branch line, or could this be the one and same of this discussion? Don L. From lallan45 at gmail.com Tue Nov 24 18:03:18 2009 From: lallan45 at gmail.com (Larry Allan) Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2009 17:03:18 -0600 Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Where is it..Clue 1 Message-ID: You people are to good. Does this help to ID the exact location. -- Attached file removed by Ecartis and put at URL below -- -- Type: image/jpeg -- Size: 61k (63371 bytes) -- URL : http://lists.dementia.org/files/milwaukee-electric/whereisitclue2.jpg From lallan45 at gmail.com Tue Nov 24 18:07:24 2009 From: lallan45 at gmail.com (Larry Allan) Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2009 17:07:24 -0600 Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Clue .. Sorry I forgot to attach Message-ID: Sorry...Here is the photo clue -- Attached file removed by Ecartis and put at URL below -- -- Type: image/jpeg -- Size: 61k (63371 bytes) -- URL : http://lists.dementia.org/files/milwaukee-electric/02-whereisitclue2.jpg From DLeistikow at webtv.net Tue Nov 24 18:19:51 2009 From: DLeistikow at webtv.net (Don L. Leistikow) Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2009 17:19:51 -0600 Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: Clue .. Sorry I forgot to attach In-Reply-To: Larry Allan 's message of Tue, 24 Nov 2009 17:07:24 -0600 Message-ID: <23835-4B0C6A17-9339@storefull-3172.bay.webtv.net> Larry A and list; My brain is kicking in!. Although your photo clue(s) were attached to both messages and .... they're both the same photo. What's the clue? Okay, now; There are two concrete structures, the first one coming to my mind is along the Cape Road and the second is just west of Cape Road on the East Troy Line. I like to think that my brain has so much stored up there that it takes me some time to sort through it all, to find what I want to remember. Just wait, this comes to all of us, eventually. As Mike Bauers says; Here's to Ya! Don L. From DLeistikow at webtv.net Tue Nov 24 18:25:09 2009 From: DLeistikow at webtv.net (Don L. Leistikow) Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2009 17:25:09 -0600 Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: A little "Where Is It GAME".... In-Reply-To: Larry Allan 's message of Tue, 24 Nov 2009 16:12:39 -0600 Message-ID: <23841-4B0C6B55-2962@storefull-3172.bay.webtv.net> Another thought. Perhaps someone should come out there and trace a pattern of the 1904 concrete engraving, for posterity. John Giove and Bruce Schimel's museum should be interested in that. Don L. From lallan45 at gmail.com Tue Nov 24 18:46:13 2009 From: lallan45 at gmail.com (Larry Allan) Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2009 17:46:13 -0600 Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Where is it...Answer to location Message-ID: The second Clue, was the now visible D 13 which was covered by weeds in the first photo. Don do you know what the D13 means? I thought maybe a mile marker. Anyhow, the location is just East of Muskego Center. A little Creek is crossed at this location. -- Attached file removed by Ecartis and put at URL below -- -- Type: image/jpeg -- Size: 68k (70283 bytes) -- URL : http://lists.dementia.org/files/milwaukee-electric/IMG_2497whereisit.jpg -- Attached file removed by Ecartis and put at URL below -- -- Type: image/jpeg -- Size: 30k (31640 bytes) -- URL : http://lists.dementia.org/files/milwaukee-electric/mergebridgewhereisitw.jpg From sunrise at bikethehoan.com Tue Nov 24 21:45:04 2009 From: sunrise at bikethehoan.com (William Sell) Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2009 20:45:04 -0600 Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: Public Saervice Building In-Reply-To: References: <0101787ABFEF424090D7F5ACCFD491B6@KTJosephson> <50793.59722.qm@web65503.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4b0c9a2f.04c2f10a.7450.ffffb33b@mx.google.com> This link does not take me to Relics http://lists.dementia.org/relics Do I have it wrong? Bill Sell At 12:59 PM 11/24/2009, you wrote: >To William Sell and others. Ken has some pictures of this building on >his Website/Relics Page. > >On 11/23/09, Scott Greig wrote: > > This is 37th & Wells, right? I wonder if that old TMER&L Co. manhole cover > > I spotted near there in '95 is still around. > > --- On Mon, 11/23/09, Ken and Tracie wrote: > > > > From: Ken and Tracie > > Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: Public Saervice Building > > To: milwaukee-electric at lists.dementia.org > > Date: Monday, November 23, 2009, 9:44 PM > > > > I wanted to try for that "postcard look." > > Here's another "before and After", using one of Larry's recent pictures. > > > > K. > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Don L. Leistikow" > > > > > >> Ken and list: Wonderful photo, retouched though but, well done. The > >> building had been thoroughly cleaned up via necessary measures to > >> restore it to its original appearance.. > > > > -- Attached file removed by Ecartis and put at URL below -- > > -- Type: image/jpeg > > -- Size: 91k (94086 bytes) > > -- URL : > > http://lists.dementia.org/files/milwaukee-electric/thenandnowwellsst.jpg > > > > > > > > > > > > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^. "Let us put our minds together, and see what life we will make for our children." ---Tatanka-Iyotanka (Sitting Bull) --- Hunkpapa Lakota chief From rso1000 at hotmail.com Wed Nov 25 00:07:25 2009 From: rso1000 at hotmail.com (Ron Smolen) Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2009 23:07:25 -0600 Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: link In-Reply-To: <4b0c9a2f.04c2f10a.7450.ffffb33b@mx.google.com> References: <0101787ABFEF424090D7F5ACCFD491B6@KTJosephson>,<50793.59722.qm@web65503.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>,,<4b0c9a2f.04c2f10a.7450.ffffb33b@mx.google.com> Message-ID: Bill try this http://lists.dementia.org/files/milwaukee-electric/ looks like everything posted so far > Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2009 20:45:04 -0600 > To: milwaukee-electric at lists.dementia.org > From: sunrise at bikethehoan.com > Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: Public Saervice Building > > This link does not take me to Relics > > http://lists.dementia.org/relics > > Do I have it wrong? > > Bill Sell > > > > > > > At 12:59 PM 11/24/2009, you wrote: > >To William Sell and others. Ken has some pictures of this building on > >his Website/Relics Page. > > > >On 11/23/09, Scott Greig wrote: > > > This is 37th & Wells, right? I wonder if that old TMER&L Co. manhole cover > > > I spotted near there in '95 is still around. > > > --- On Mon, 11/23/09, Ken and Tracie wrote: > > > > > > From: Ken and Tracie > > > Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: Public Saervice Building > > > To: milwaukee-electric at lists.dementia.org > > > Date: Monday, November 23, 2009, 9:44 PM > > > > > > I wanted to try for that "postcard look." > > > Here's another "before and After", using one of Larry's recent pictures. > > > > > > K. > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: "Don L. Leistikow" > > > > > > > > >> Ken and list: Wonderful photo, retouched though but, well done. The > > >> building had been thoroughly cleaned up via necessary measures to > > >> restore it to its original appearance.. > > > > > > -- Attached file removed by Ecartis and put at URL below -- > > > -- Type: image/jpeg > > > -- Size: 91k (94086 bytes) > > > -- URL : > > > http://lists.dementia.org/files/milwaukee-electric/thenandnowwellsst.jpg > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^. > "Let us put our minds together, and see what life we will make for > our children." ---Tatanka-Iyotanka (Sitting Bull) --- Hunkpapa Lakota chief > > _________________________________________________________________ Hotmail: Trusted email with powerful SPAM protection. http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/177141665/direct/01/ From DLeistikow at webtv.net Wed Nov 25 02:12:57 2009 From: DLeistikow at webtv.net (Don L. Leistikow) Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2009 01:12:57 -0600 Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: Where is it...Answer to location In-Reply-To: Larry Allan 's message of Tue, 24 Nov 2009 17:46:13 -0600 Message-ID: <23712-4B0CD8F9-6484@storefull-3171.bay.webtv.net> Larry A and list: No, the D 13 impression is not familiar to me, first time I've seen that on a concrete structure. My best guess is that it refers to location; like D(istance) 13 (miles from PSB). That would be via the original route, S. 2nd Street to Geenfield thence west via Greenfield, Burnham and Becher to and via Mukwonago Road to Fruitland (today's 100th & National Avenue. It would seem that Muskego would be more than 13 miles from Downtown Milwaukee. Or, it could mean the 13th bridge structure on that line. Now, to check on the other two that I mentioned. Don L. From ktjosephson at embarqmail.com Wed Nov 25 03:19:20 2009 From: ktjosephson at embarqmail.com (Ken and Tracie) Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2009 00:19:20 -0800 Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Then and Now- Cedarburg Station References: <23712-4B0CD8F9-6484@storefull-3171.bay.webtv.net> Message-ID: <53563B1F4D4C41BC9E6E5F43AC5DB52B@KTJosephson> The upper image is from my postcard collection. The lower image is from Larry's camera. K. -- Attached file removed by Ecartis and put at URL below -- -- Type: image/jpeg -- Size: 88k (90629 bytes) -- URL : http://lists.dementia.org/files/milwaukee-electric/thenandnowcedarburg.jpg From ktjosephson at embarqmail.com Wed Nov 25 03:52:04 2009 From: ktjosephson at embarqmail.com (Ken and Tracie) Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2009 00:52:04 -0800 Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Milwaukee Northern, Then and Now References: <23712-4B0CD8F9-6484@storefull-3171.bay.webtv.net> <53563B1F4D4C41BC9E6E5F43AC5DB52B@KTJosephson> Message-ID: -- Attached file removed by Ecartis and put at URL below -- -- Type: image/jpeg -- Size: 67k (69142 bytes) -- URL : http://lists.dementia.org/files/milwaukee-electric/02-mnbeforeafter01.jpg From ktjosephson at embarqmail.com Wed Nov 25 03:55:24 2009 From: ktjosephson at embarqmail.com (Ken and Tracie) Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2009 00:55:24 -0800 Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Sacred Ground References: <23712-4B0CD8F9-6484@storefull-3171.bay.webtv.net> <53563B1F4D4C41BC9E6E5F43AC5DB52B@KTJosephson> Message-ID: <126DA020675746D8A61A06FEABD144D9@KTJosephson> Look where I took my wife on our first trip to Wisconsin: -- Attached file removed by Ecartis and put at URL below -- -- Type: image/jpeg -- Size: 123k (126183 bytes) -- URL : http://lists.dementia.org/files/milwaukee-electric/tracie0002.jpg -- Attached file removed by Ecartis and put at URL below -- -- Type: image/jpeg -- Size: 106k (108869 bytes) -- URL : http://lists.dementia.org/files/milwaukee-electric/mnbridgeken.jpg From ktjosephson at embarqmail.com Wed Nov 25 04:06:11 2009 From: ktjosephson at embarqmail.com (Ken and Tracie) Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2009 01:06:11 -0800 Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Not Quite Routes 19-37 References: <23712-4B0CD8F9-6484@storefull-3171.bay.webtv.net> <53563B1F4D4C41BC9E6E5F43AC5DB52B@KTJosephson> Message-ID: By the time we were married, San Francisco was the closest place for me to take Tracie for a trackless trolley ride. But she had ridden the ex-CTA Marmon-Herringtons as a college student, some years before we met, while visiting Guadalajara. In fact, one our first visit to IRM, a few years later, Tracie saw one of the CTA M-Hs and the first thing she blurted out was, " Guadalajara!" K. -- Attached file removed by Ecartis and put at URL below -- -- Type: image/jpeg -- Size: 99k (102259 bytes) -- URL : http://lists.dementia.org/files/milwaukee-electric/tracie0001.jpg -- Attached file removed by Ecartis and put at URL below -- -- Type: image/jpeg -- Size: 41k (42626 bytes) -- URL : http://lists.dementia.org/files/milwaukee-electric/irm0031.jpg -- Attached file removed by Ecartis and put at URL below -- -- Type: image/jpeg -- Size: 99k (101539 bytes) -- URL : http://lists.dementia.org/files/milwaukee-electric/irm002.jpg From ktjosephson at embarqmail.com Wed Nov 25 04:19:50 2009 From: ktjosephson at embarqmail.com (Ken and Tracie) Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2009 01:19:50 -0800 Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Milwaukee 441- July 4th. 2000 References: <23712-4B0CD8F9-6484@storefull-3171.bay.webtv.net> <53563B1F4D4C41BC9E6E5F43AC5DB52B@KTJosephson> Message-ID: <4428B7FD297F4E2CB01A096CCFBA4CFC@KTJosephson> John Bromley took this slide of TMER&T/M&ST 441 at IRM, July 4th, 2000: -- Attached file removed by Ecartis and put at URL below -- -- Type: image/jpeg -- Size: 53k (54898 bytes) -- URL : http://lists.dementia.org/files/milwaukee-electric/bromley0103.jpg From ktjosephson at embarqmail.com Wed Nov 25 04:43:49 2009 From: ktjosephson at embarqmail.com (Ken and Tracie) Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2009 01:43:49 -0800 Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: Where is it...Answer to location References: Message-ID: <0ECF071893CB477E8CB5FF159E6EED26@KTJosephson> Maybe the guys who built the bridge had ESP and knew which Differential Dump car was going to wind up in East Troy. (Jus' kiddin'!) K. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Larry Allan" To: Sent: Tuesday, November 24, 2009 3:46 PM Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Where is it...Answer to location > The second Clue, was the now visible D 13 which was covered by weeds > in the first photo. Don do you know what the D13 means? I thought > maybe a mile marker. Anyhow, the location is just East of Muskego > Center. A little Creek is crossed at this location.> From ktjosephson at embarqmail.com Wed Nov 25 04:56:45 2009 From: ktjosephson at embarqmail.com (Ken and Tracie) Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2009 01:56:45 -0800 Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: 37th & Wells on PROW References: <23716-4B0BF123-1930@storefull-3171.bay.webtv.net> Message-ID: <1E2428D3CDE34195B265E095CD78E5BC@KTJosephson> Don't forget all those photos of 639, taken during the 1949 fantrip, all over the system. One even shows it on Route 12, bearing a Route 12 sign. They even stopped it next to a Rapid Transit articulated and rolled the latter's sign to reflect a destination on the abandoned Milwaukee Northern Division, then took photos.. And the 1100 fantrip on the Hales Corner line during the late 1940s, displaying destination signs such as "East Troy", "Burlington" and even never reached "Lake Geneva." Then there's the photo of that same fantrip, taken at the Cold Spring Road stop shelter. I believe the caption reads that the photo dates from the late 1920s. The peeling paint on the shelter and the insulation peeling off the feeder cables indicates otherwise. The trips with 966 and 972 brought out some odd stuff, too, like dash signs reading "Downer" and "Farwell." Or showing Route 23 in the box while passing the Wells Street power plant. And of course, a Curvesider on the Hales Corner and Rapid Transit lines, displaying Shaker Heights destinations. A few Pittsburgh rollsigns had whimsical destinations such as "Toonerville" and "Bat Cave Via Gotham City." Others show a Pittsburgh rollsign in a Toronto PCC during a fantrip and a St.Louis rollsign in a Pittsburgh PCC during another fantrip. K. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Don L. Leistikow" To: Sent: Tuesday, November 24, 2009 6:43 AM Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: 37th & Wells on PROW > Ken and list: The two westbound cars are likely two Charter Cars that > were plying the WELLS line on the final day of operation or ... the > weekend before. As I recall, the 966 and 972 were so used as many photos > were taken of them, notably on the Wauwatosa prow alondside the MILW > Road between 72nd and Harwood. > > There are two clues to such Charters, mainly the lack of a Run Number > and a blank Route Sign although, on request, the motorman would crank in > a Route Number, ususally number 10 for a photographer. > > Then there were the rare but occassional requests from a photographer, > for a Route Sign number other than that which would apply to the photo > location. Controversy would then develop among serious photographers > and historians as to where the photo was taken. Notably, the 500 class > car with a 23(?) Route Number, that was photographed at End of Line on > Route 40. > > Don L. > > From x779 at webtv.net Wed Nov 25 10:37:07 2009 From: x779 at webtv.net (Louis Rugani) Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2009 15:37:07 GMT Subject: [milwaukee-electric] "Kenosha Firm Not Abolishing Trains" Message-ID: Thought you'd appreciate this historic article. KMCL was long thought to be tied into National City Lines but no absolute proof has ever been uncovered. And the line that would "not be abolished" was gone by 1951. =Lou= ~~~~~~~~~~ **-=\/=-** ~~~~~~~~~~ The opposite of bravery is not cowardice, but conformity.  Robert Anthony -----Original Message----- From: LouRugani Sent: Tuesday, November 24, 2009 8:04 PM To: KenoshaStreetcars at yahoogroups.com Subject: ~ "Kenosha Firm Not Abolishing Trains" (November 23, 1946 - Waukesha Freeman) Kenosha Firm Not Abolishing Trains New Owners of Line Plan to Continue It for Extended Period Electric interurban service between Waukesha and Milwaukee will continue indefinitely, it was announced today by Henry P. Bruner, president of the Kenosha Motor Coach Lines, Inc., new owner of the transit properties. The statement was made to the (Waukesha) Freeman when Bruner was asked in Racine about future plans for the local interurban line. "We feel that the Waukesha line goes through territory which is developing and expanding well enough to warrant continuance of the electric service," Bruner asserted. "There are economies of time involved in the operation of the electric line which cannot be duplicated by motor buses." The company official said with an aggressive program of operation he is confident that enough rides can be secured for the interurban service to continue its operation indefinitely. Rounds Out Purchases He explained that acquisition of the Milwaukee-Waukesha properties rounds out his company's program of acquiring the electric transit properties of the T. M. E. R. & T. Co. In December, 1943, he said, the Kenosha company purchased the Milwaukee, Racine and Kenosha line and in October, 1945, bought the Milwaukee-Port Washington properties. All are continuing to operate. "When we acquired the Port Washington line," Mr. Bruner said, we did so with the expectation of inaugurating bus service as a substitute for it. In this respect the acquisition of the Waukesha line differs. We have no plans for substituting buses on the Waukesha-Milwaukee route and we foresee no reasons for doing so in one, two or even three years." The operating revenues of the Milwaukee-Waukesha line amount to about $300,000 a year, Bruner said. During the war years traffic on the line increased substantially and the traffic has been good since the end of the war. He termed it a good line and one which was well built and well maintained. It has, however, been subject to rising costs during the past few years. From DLeistikow at webtv.net Wed Nov 25 10:47:20 2009 From: DLeistikow at webtv.net (Don L. Leistikow) Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2009 09:47:20 -0600 Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: Not Quite Routes 19-37 In-Reply-To: "Ken and Tracie" 's message of Wed, 25 Nov 2009 01:06:11 -0800 Message-ID: <23712-4B0D5188-6823@storefull-3171.bay.webtv.net> Ken and Tracie: I like your photo Travelog. A coincidence is that the Tracie 0001 photo of coach 5048 happens to be our address of our first house on North 48th Street in Milwaukee. Don L. From DLeistikow at webtv.net Wed Nov 25 11:02:38 2009 From: DLeistikow at webtv.net (Don L. Leistikow) Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2009 10:02:38 -0600 Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: 37th & Wells on PROW In-Reply-To: "Ken and Tracie" 's message of Wed, 25 Nov 2009 01:56:45 -0800 Message-ID: <23716-4B0D551E-2475@storefull-3171.bay.webtv.net> Ken and list: I have slides of TM cars on several Fan Trips. The 639 Trip was notable but more photos continue to appear, such as the Route 12 one which you mentioned. I don't have that one. The Pullman Green TM Rapid Transit car on the HC Line is/was the 1122. The roll sign curtain was the only one with Lake Geneva on it. The Curved Sider which appeared in its special colors, applied by SHRT, was the 65. I believe that it was on a Shake Down trip just after delivery here, from Cleveland. Don L. From DLeistikow at webtv.net Fri Nov 27 02:09:16 2009 From: DLeistikow at webtv.net (Don L. Leistikow) Date: Fri, 27 Nov 2009 01:09:16 -0600 Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: Website Update In-Reply-To: "Ken and Tracie" 's message of Wed, 18 Nov 2009 13:19:48 -0800 Message-ID: <6182-4B0F7B1C-319@storefull-3173.bay.webtv.net> Ken: Am having great trouble in downloading your website. This is nothing new as, I've not been able to get past your entry, for a long time. Recent efforts to enter your Home Page, begins to load and then drops out. I tried your Rapid Transit page which just continued to load, without getting into the page(s). I just tried to download Streetcars and spent over ten minutes waiting for it to complete downloading. My webber tells me that it is loading but, ever so slowly as compared to other photo sites and web pages. Don L. From ktjosephson at embarqmail.com Thu Nov 26 14:47:33 2009 From: ktjosephson at embarqmail.com (Ken and Tracie) Date: Thu, 26 Nov 2009 11:47:33 -0800 Subject: [milwaukee-electric] 639 Fantrip References: <23716-4B0BF123-1930@storefull-3171.bay.webtv.net> <1E2428D3CDE34195B265E095CD78E5BC@KTJosephson> Message-ID: <5AAB5237D4E04BD2803E6FAF047117FF@KTJosephson> -- Attached file removed by Ecartis and put at URL below -- -- Type: image/jpeg -- Size: 47k (48292 bytes) -- URL : http://lists.dementia.org/files/milwaukee-electric/tm639a.jpg From don0731 at gte.net Fri Nov 27 16:26:08 2009 From: don0731 at gte.net (Don Ross) Date: Fri, 27 Nov 2009 15:26:08 -0600 Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: 639 Fantrip In-Reply-To: <5AAB5237D4E04BD2803E6FAF047117FF@KTJosephson> References: <23716-4B0BF123-1930@storefull-3171.bay.webtv.net> <1E2428D3CDE34195B265E095CD78E5BC@KTJosephson> <5AAB5237D4E04BD2803E6FAF047117FF@KTJosephson> Message-ID: <0KTS0009WE7KDIQY@vms173015.mailsrvcs.net> Here are a few views http://donsdepot.donrossgroup.net/dr377.htm http://donsdepot.donrossgroup.net/dr842.htm Don (the other one) At 01:47 PM 11/26/2009, you wrote: >-- Attached file removed by Ecartis and put at URL below -- From DLeistikow at webtv.net Fri Nov 27 17:00:07 2009 From: DLeistikow at webtv.net (Don L. Leistikow) Date: Fri, 27 Nov 2009 16:00:07 -0600 Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: 639 Fantrip In-Reply-To: "Ken and Tracie" 's message of Thu, 26 Nov 2009 11:47:33 -0800 Message-ID: <20560-4B104BE7-381@storefull-3172.bay.webtv.net> Ken: Bravo... that's one photo that I do not have. Location is; facing west on Mason Street at Jefferson Street. That is the Milwaukee Art Institure to the left, in the photo. When the Wells~Farwell Route 10 was truncated between Farwell and North and Jackson and Wells, Route 10 cars then made the loop via Jackson, Mason, Water and then turned west rejoining the original route to Wauwatosa and West Allis. Boarding cars at Water and Wells, was on the far side of the intersection i.e., Route 15 northbound car platform was at the SW corner, adjacent to Milwaukee's City Hall and the Route 10 car platform was in front of the Pabst Theater at the NE corner (west a bit) opposite the main entrance to the Pabst Theater Building's canopy. Don L. From DLeistikow at webtv.net Fri Nov 27 22:53:42 2009 From: DLeistikow at webtv.net (Don L. Leistikow) Date: Fri, 27 Nov 2009 21:53:42 -0600 Subject: [milwaukee-electric] TMER&L Articulated Dining Car In-Reply-To: "Ken and Tracie" 's message of Wed, 25 Nov 2009 00:19:20 -0800 Message-ID: <20559-4B109EC6-691@storefull-3172.bay.webtv.net> List: TM's company publication Rail & Wire for January 1928, page 278 carries the following announcement: DINER BEGINS SERVICE .... Our new all-electric two coach diner train went into regular service on the Milwaukee-Watertown Rapid Transit line on Jan. 16. The train, which was described in the December issue of Rail and Wire was built at the Cold Spring Shops. Complete meals as well as ala carte service are provided on three westbound and three eastbound trips daily except Sunday. Each trip connects directly at Watertown with our Madison buses, making the dining service part of our Milwaukee-Madison operation. The train is operated according to the following schedule: Leaving Milwaukee at 7:00, 11:05 am and 4:35 pm, and leaving Watertown eastbound, 9:13 am, 12:44 pm and 6:32 pm, daily except Sunday. An interior photograph of two women seated at a table reading a menu, has a waiter awaiting their choice of an entree. FOOTNOTE: An 8 x 10 company broadside photograph of the original train spread across W. McKinley Street on N. 38th Street, the usual place for file photographs, discloses that this train carried the number 1199, on both car bodies. Unusual, in that all of the articulated trains (rebuilt from single bodied streetcars), carried individual numbering on each car, i.e., 494-495. With the construction of the second articulated Dining Car train, TM reverted to dual numbers, the 1199 train became 1198-1199 and the 1929 new addition Dinng Car train became 1196 - 1197. For the record.... Don L. Leistikow From dickmyers at wi.rr.com Sat Nov 28 10:53:19 2009 From: dickmyers at wi.rr.com (Dick Myers) Date: Sat, 28 Nov 2009 09:53:19 -0600 Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Phishing email Message-ID: Did anyone else on this list receive what looks like a phishing email from a railroad related email address asking you to update your email and contact information? I am on several railroad related mail lists. I am not sure, but it seems likely thta this originated on one of these lists, or from my browsings. The email is supposedly from webmail.nyc.rr.com, but digging behind the header shows that it actually came from an address that looks like it is in Singapore - web208 at singnet.com.sg. I don't ever recall signing on to a New York Central email group, but may have visted a related web page or two in my browsings of railroad related sites. We all need to be alert to such phishing scams. Regards.......Dick myers From ktjosephson at embarqmail.com Sat Nov 28 02:54:41 2009 From: ktjosephson at embarqmail.com (Ken and Tracie) Date: Fri, 27 Nov 2009 23:54:41 -0800 Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: 639 Fantrip References: <20560-4B104BE7-381@storefull-3172.bay.webtv.net> Message-ID: <3BC5AD8C57F74A939638F1B0F83C79CB@KTJosephson> Don, please send me your mailing address again. K. From ktjosephson at embarqmail.com Sat Nov 28 03:42:26 2009 From: ktjosephson at embarqmail.com (Ken and Tracie) Date: Sat, 28 Nov 2009 00:42:26 -0800 Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: 639 Fantrip References: <20560-4B104BE7-381@storefull-3172.bay.webtv.net> Message-ID: <857DC7AF44A34E6EA1277BD56E13E56F@KTJosephson> Here's a re-scan, close up. K. -- Attached file removed by Ecartis and put at URL below -- -- Type: image/jpeg -- Size: 137k (140439 bytes) -- URL : http://lists.dementia.org/files/milwaukee-electric/tm63901.jpg From DLeistikow at webtv.net Sun Nov 29 18:22:36 2009 From: DLeistikow at webtv.net (Don L. Leistikow) Date: Sun, 29 Nov 2009 17:22:36 -0600 Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: This and that ~ Speedrail In-Reply-To: Matthew Austin 's message of Fri, 20 Nov 2009 11:53:32 +1100 Message-ID: <26434-4B13023C-3806@storefull-3171.bay.webtv.net> An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed... Name: not available Url: http://mailman.dementix.org/pipermail/milwaukee-electric/attachments/20091129/3059acec/attachment.pl From x779 at webtv.net Sun Nov 29 19:13:22 2009 From: x779 at webtv.net (Louis Rugani) Date: Mon, 30 Nov 2009 00:13:22 GMT Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Speedrail Message-ID: An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed... Name: not available Url: http://mailman.dementix.org/pipermail/milwaukee-electric/attachments/20091130/5e413509/attachment.pl From ktjosephson at embarqmail.com Sun Nov 29 20:30:20 2009 From: ktjosephson at embarqmail.com (Ken and Tracie) Date: Sun, 29 Nov 2009 17:30:20 -0800 Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: This and that ~ Speedrail References: <26434-4B13023C-3806@storefull-3171.bay.webtv.net> Message-ID: One point which seems to be ignored is the effect first generation shopping centers such as Southgate, Capitol Court, Bay Shore and Mayfair had on Downtown as a major shopping district. Office parks (actually office buildings along Capitol Drive, Mayfair Road, etc.) drew smaller businesses from Downtown into the outer reaches of the city as well as into the inner ring suburbs. Incidentally, I can agree to some degree that retention of Speedrail may have kept Downtown relevant longer, but I seriously doubt a return to a Milwaukee-Waukesha light rail line, with branches and even park and ride lots would revitalize Downtown Milwaukee at this stage of the game. Suburb to suburb auto commuting is too entrenched. Just my uneducated opinion. K. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Don L. Leistikow" To: Cc: Sent: Sunday, November 29, 2009 3:22 PM Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: This and that ~ Speedrail > Matt A and list: Would Speedrail survived if... the 1950 Labor Day > Accident hadn't happened? A challanging thought. > Ridership was strong prior to the 'accident'. Rushhour service on the > Waukesha Line was heavy during the rush-hours. Duplex trains were > moving on a 15 minute headway beginning at 6:00 am and at 5:00 pm. > Seating into and out of the Public Service Building during those hours, > was virtually a seated load. > > On the Hales Corners Line, the same was true however, single cars > provided most of the service. This oddity was occassioned by the need > for West Junction Duplexes which ran between the Waukesha Duplexes and > the HC cars. The purpose of the WJ trains operating ahead of the HC > cars, was to handle the stranding room only WJ trains. > > Now consider that the Waukesha line was 18 miles long whereas the HC > line was only 13 miles long. The real purpose of off rush-hour > transportaton was to balance WJ service between PSB and WJ, into even > thirds, time wise. Basically, half hourly service was available during > daylight hours in that local service. The only gap was the one hour > space between 12:10 pm and 1:10 pm on the Waukesha Line. Add to that, > Line Car (D 21) which operated between 9:00 am and 5:00 pm. Of course, > the Line Car was an extra operating on train orders from the Dispatcher > in the PSB. > > Actually, the PSB - WJ half hourly service was not really necessary, as > seating counts verified. Hourly service, off rush-hours, would have > been adequate. > > I should mention that rush-hour service to Waukesha was Limited. No > local passengers were allowed on those trains or cars. Therefore, they > only made transfer points (crosstown services) and stops to discharge > passengers began at Lovers Lane Road, aka S.108th street or Wisconsin > State Highway 100. This was the first landing west of WJ on the > Waukesha branch. > > Don L. > > > > -- Attached file removed by Ecartis and put at URL below -- > -- Type: Message/RFC822 > -- Size: 4k (4237 bytes) > -- URL : http://lists.dementia.org/files/milwaukee-electric/ecartIdolWF > > > From yance at oldmilwaukee.net Sun Nov 29 10:31:48 2009 From: yance at oldmilwaukee.net (Y Marti) Date: Sun, 29 Nov 2009 10:31:48 -0500 Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: 639 Fantrip In-Reply-To: <857DC7AF44A34E6EA1277BD56E13E56F@KTJosephson> References: <20560-4B104BE7-381@storefull-3172.bay.webtv.net> <857DC7AF44A34E6EA1277BD56E13E56F@KTJosephson> Message-ID: <20091129103148.42352l1yzl30bzeo@horde.oldmilwaukee.net> That's actually looking east on Mason Street at a west bound car. Note the Cudahy Towers in the background. The building on the left is the old Layton Gallery which was torn down in 1958. Quoting Ken and Tracie : > Here's a re-scan, close up. > K. > > -- Attached file removed by Ecartis and put at URL below -- > -- Type: image/jpeg > -- Size: 137k (140439 bytes) > -- URL : http://lists.dementia.org/files/milwaukee-electric/tm63901.jpg > > > > From DLeistikow at webtv.net Mon Nov 30 00:59:28 2009 From: DLeistikow at webtv.net (Don L. Leistikow) Date: Sun, 29 Nov 2009 23:59:28 -0600 Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: 639 Fantrip In-Reply-To: Y Marti 's message of Sun, 29 Nov 2009 10:31:48 -0500 Message-ID: <6180-4B135F40-6680@storefull-3173.bay.webtv.net> Y Marti and list: This location, later, became the layover point when the Route 10 Wells Line was truncated from Farwell and North to the Wells, Jackson, Mason, Water and return loop. That change became effective on June 21, 1953. Don L. From ktjosephson at embarqmail.com Mon Nov 30 02:52:17 2009 From: ktjosephson at embarqmail.com (Ken and Tracie) Date: Sun, 29 Nov 2009 23:52:17 -0800 Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: This and that ~ Speedrail References: <26434-4B13023C-3806@storefull-3171.bay.webtv.net> Message-ID: One thing nobody was able to see were "baseball specials" comprised of North Shore equipment sharing the stadium siding with 800s and 900s during a Chicago-Milwaukee ballgame. That would have been quite a sight. K. From DLeistikow at webtv.net Mon Nov 30 10:59:43 2009 From: DLeistikow at webtv.net (Don L. Leistikow) Date: Mon, 30 Nov 2009 09:59:43 -0600 Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: This and that ~ Speedrail In-Reply-To: "Ken and Tracie" 's message of Sun, 29 Nov 2009 17:30:20 -0800 Message-ID: <20558-4B13EBEF-2491@storefull-3172.bay.webtv.net> Ken and list: Your reference to outlying shopping centers was preceded by Ed Shuster and Company with their three Shuster Department Stores anchoring three retail business districts. They were located at 12th and Vliet, 3rd and Garfield and 11th and Mitchell streets. Downtown Milwaukee had strong retail department stores operated by the Boston Store, Gimbels and the upscale T.A. Chapman store on E. Wisconsin Avenue. The first run Theater District on the Avenue, included the Fox Wisconsin, Palace, Warner and Riverside, while he Strand picked up the two first run films from the Wisconsin and Palace by combining them into a second run, less expensive combined showing. The Alhambra had been shut down but, was reopened about 1944 as it too ran both first and second run films. A small all news theater also anchored the 'avenue' during WW 2 and survived for quite some time. Off the Avenue was the Miller which catered to third run features, news and sports at discounted prices. It later was remodeled into a first run entity as the Towne theater on 3rd street. Up the block were the Whitehouse, Princess and of course the Burlesk theater. Whitehouse and Princess ran various films old films at 10 cents per person. It was the Freeway that killed the Central Business District, enhancing the small shopping malls into mega-malls with virtually endless parking lots. Even the three Shuster stores fell as those shopping areas slowly succumed to oblivion. The last attraction on Mitchell street was Goldmann's, a two story department store that continued to attract business from across the Metro area. It also folded not too long ago. Their cafeteria served the best Ice Cream Malted Milk in town. Rule of thumb.. the Freeway supports diversion and its underlying sprawl whereas, electric rail transit and light rail operations, support Central Business Districts and in turn, a strong tax base with flourishing businesses. Clean air is an additional benefit from electric rail transit. Freeways pollute the air that we breathe. Don L. From ktjosephson at embarqmail.com Mon Nov 30 12:00:56 2009 From: ktjosephson at embarqmail.com (Ken and Tracie) Date: Mon, 30 Nov 2009 09:00:56 -0800 Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: This and that ~ Speedrail References: <20558-4B13EBEF-2491@storefull-3172.bay.webtv.net> Message-ID: <574E2BF597154805A38B7CF3FB4795D0@KTJosephson> Yes, and the freeways' physical presence creates both physical and psychological barriers, dividing the city. Had Speedrail remained into the late 1950s, the freeway system would have still been built. It would seem logical that from 28th Street east, the Rapid Transit would have been placed within the median, or at the very edge of an expanded right of way. Especially if Mayor Zeidler had his wish and the city had purchased the line. Being in the position of being both a railfan and a vintage automobile enthusiast, I will state I believe that the "splashy" mid to late 1950s automobiles, with their brightwork, bright colors, tail fins, colorful interiors and powerful engines (along with increased use of "gadgets" such as automatic transmissions, power steering, power brakes, etc.) would have lured plenty of people away from the rails. It would make little difference to them if riding the rails was faster or was more economical. Then again, Milwaukee remained a "mass transit town" for years longer than other large metropolitan areas did. I remember upper middle class families keeping a bus pass around for the kids or "just in case." But the relevance of Downtown as a common destination would be critical to the survival of any commuter or suburban rail network requiring a common destination terminal. The outlying shopping centers also decimated the various small commercial areas, such as "mom and pop" grocery stores at the intersections of secondary arterials. Larger commercial areas such as Third and North, North and Fond du Lac, etc. suffered, too. For some reason, Mitchell Street's commercial strip, anchored by Goldman's and by Schuster's, seemed to survive quite well. Also, as Milwaukee's African-American community grew and expanded beyond the near West Side, White residents moved further out. The "block busting" tactics of greedy real estate people cannot be ignored. Population density is critical to well patronized rail systems. K. From jdl896 at wi.rr.com Mon Nov 30 13:25:49 2009 From: jdl896 at wi.rr.com (jdl896 at wi.rr.com) Date: Mon, 30 Nov 2009 13:25:49 -0500 Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: This and that ~ Speedrail In-Reply-To: <20558-4B13EBEF-2491@storefull-3172.bay.webtv.net> Message-ID: <20091130182550.YTZRM.232791.root@hrndva-web02-z02> AMEN, Don~ Pollution can certainly be a reason for visiting a doctor, or emergency room with symptoms of asthma. or a weakened immune system that might lead ppneumonia ---- "Don L. Leistikow" wrote: > Ken and list: Your reference to outlying shopping centers was preceded > by Ed Shuster and Company with their three Shuster Department Stores > anchoring three retail business districts. They were located at 12th > and Vliet, 3rd and Garfield and 11th and Mitchell streets. > > Downtown Milwaukee had strong retail department stores operated by the > Boston Store, Gimbels and the upscale T.A. Chapman store on E. Wisconsin > Avenue. The first run Theater District on the Avenue, included the Fox > Wisconsin, Palace, Warner and Riverside, while he Strand picked up the > two first run films from the Wisconsin and Palace by combining them into > a second run, less expensive combined showing. > > The Alhambra had been shut down but, was reopened about 1944 as it too > ran both first and second run films. A small all news theater also > anchored the 'avenue' during WW 2 and survived for quite some time. > > Off the Avenue was the Miller which catered to third run features, news > and sports at discounted prices. It later was remodeled into a first > run entity as the Towne theater on 3rd street. Up the block were the > Whitehouse, Princess and of course the Burlesk theater. Whitehouse and > Princess ran various films old films at 10 cents per person. > > It was the Freeway that killed the Central Business District, enhancing > the small shopping malls into mega-malls with virtually endless parking > lots. Even the three Shuster stores fell as those shopping areas slowly > succumed to oblivion. The last attraction on Mitchell street was > Goldmann's, a two story department store that continued to attract > business from across the Metro area. It also folded not too long ago. > Their cafeteria served the best Ice Cream Malted Milk in town. > > Rule of thumb.. the Freeway supports diversion and its underlying sprawl > whereas, electric rail transit and light rail operations, support > Central Business Districts and in turn, a strong tax base with > flourishing businesses. Clean air is an additional benefit from > electric rail transit. Freeways pollute the air that we breathe. > > Don L. > > From msa_vianney at hotmail.com Mon Nov 30 16:36:09 2009 From: msa_vianney at hotmail.com (Matthew Austin) Date: Tue, 1 Dec 2009 08:36:09 +1100 Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: This and that ~ Speedrail In-Reply-To: <20091130182550.YTZRM.232791.root@hrndva-web02-z02> References: <20558-4B13EBEF-2491@storefull-3172.bay.webtv.net>,<20091130182550.YTZRM.232791.root@hrndva-web02-z02> Message-ID: Thanks gents. I go away for a few days and come back to find some informative and stimuating discussion. Much appreciated, it certainly helps build my knowledge. I'm particularly interested in the Speedrail possibilities, as when one considers the huge social change and upheaval of the post-war world, how things might have gone. My reading on the topic would seem to indicate that life for the average American citizen in the 1950s was quite different from the life that citizens had in the 1930s, coming out of the Depression. This being the case, the call of the automobile must have been strong, especially for those who could afford the payments. One of the best tramway museums in Australia is the Sydney Tramway Museum. The Sydney system was once the largest in the British Empire outside of London, closing in 1961. I visited the museum and rode one of their crossbench trams from the 1920s. Inside were some snack-food advertisements from the late 1950s. One was a frozen ice block in a 'rocketship' shape, capitalising on the popullarity of the space-race. I was struck by the gulf of change from the time the tram was built to the world of space exploration, all within thirty years. I guess this ramble is to agree that there were a multitude of factors involved in the survival of transit systems. Cheers, Matt _________________________________________________________________ Download new and classic emoticon packs at Emoticon World Brought to you exclusively by Windows Live http://windowslive.ninemsn.com.au/emoticon.aspx? From DLeistikow at webtv.net Mon Nov 30 16:59:54 2009 From: DLeistikow at webtv.net (Don L. Leistikow) Date: Mon, 30 Nov 2009 15:59:54 -0600 Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: This and that ~ Speedrail In-Reply-To: "Ken and Tracie" 's message of Mon, 30 Nov 2009 09:00:56 -0800 Message-ID: <26434-4B14405A-5460@storefull-3171.bay.webtv.net> Ken: Well written analysis of transit vs private automobiles. Don't overlook the operational cost of an automobile, plus insurance, License Plate, engine maintenance and tires. Then add the cost of parking downtown. On another slant, vacated buildings in the CBD were torn down, becoming parking lots that charged a fee for the use of space therein. In reality, a driver in an automobile is the highest cost per mile of any land transportation. Adding passengers does reduce this formula, somewhat but, not enough to overcome the disparity in comparison with electric rail transit. Don L. From jdl896 at wi.rr.com Mon Nov 30 17:56:48 2009 From: jdl896 at wi.rr.com (jdl896 at wi.rr.com) Date: Mon, 30 Nov 2009 22:56:48 +0000 Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: This and that ~ Speedrail Message-ID: <20091130225648.B1JPU.240342.root@hrndva-web02-z02> ---- "Don L. Leistikow" wrote: > Ken: Well written analysis of transit vs private automobiles. Don't > overlook the operational cost of an automobile, plus insurance, License > Plate, engine maintenance and tires. Then add the cost of parking > downtown. > > On another slant, vacated buildings in the CBD were torn down, becoming > parking lots that charged a fee for the use of space therein. In > reality, a driver in an automobile is the highest cost per mile of any > land transportation. Adding passengers does reduce this formula, > somewhat but, not enough to overcome the disparity in comparison with > electric rail transit. > > Don L. HELLO MEMBERS~ FOR SOME REASON, A MESSAGE I WANTED TO SAVE AS A DRAFT, WOUND UP BEING SENT OUT. AMEN, TO DON, WHEN HE WAS TALKING ABOUT THE DECLINE OF THE DOWNTOWN AREA OF MILWAUKE AND THE RISE IN AUTOMOBILE TRAFFIC. IS IT A COINCIDENCE THAT VISITS TO DOCTORS AND EMERGENCY ROOMS ROSE WITH CASES OF ASTHMA OR OTHER BREATHING PROBLEMS AS THE NUMBER OF CARS ALSO ROSE? THE POLLUTON CAUSED BY THE DOWNTOWN FREEWAY INTERCHANGE WAS OUTDATED WHEN IT WAS BUILT, AND THE ADDITIONAL LANES ADDED IN THE MULTI-MILLION DOLLAR MARQUETTE INTERCHANGE PROJECT WILL BE JUST AS OITDATED. WHY? BECAUSE OF THE OMISSION OF HIGH SPEED OR LIGHT RAIL AS WAS DONE IN CHICAGO. I HAVE HEARD THAT IN LONDON, THE DOWNTOWN AREA IS DEVOID OF HEAVY TRAFFIC. THIS COMES FROM THE PARK AND RIDE LOTS, SIMILAR TO MILWAUKEE FREEWAY FLYER SERICE, ONLY THE TRANSPORT IS VIA THE TUBE (SUBWAY) LAST YEAR,MY FIRST POSTS TO THE GROUP CONCERNED FREEWAY CONSTRUCTION, AND ITS AFFECT ON PUBLIC TRANSPOTATION, IWROTE OF MY MEMORIES OF SHOPPING DOWNTOWN, BUT KEN AND TRACIE, ANF DON REMINDED ME OF THE DOWNTOWN THEATERS! NOW BY THE TIME MY MEMORIES KICKED IN, THE 3,275 SEAT WISCONSIN THEATER HAD ALREADY BEEN POORLY CONSTRUCTED UNTO THE CINEMA ONE AND TWO. THAT BLOCK STILL HAD THE POPCORN STORE NEXT TO THE THEATER, IN ADDITION TO THE ?MOON FUN SHOP? AND A MAGAZINE STORE AS WELL AS THE STRAND THEATER. WHO ACTUALLY SOLD ADVANCE SEATS FOR ?THE SOUND OF MUSIC.? THE SOUTH SIDE OF THE STRET WAS THE 2,437 SEAT ?PALACE? (WHICH OPENED AS THE ?RKO PALACE ORPHEUM? AND HAD AN ENTRANCE ON 6TH STREET AS WELL) BETWEEN FIFTH AND FOURTH STREET, WISCONSIN AVENUE WAS THEATER-LESS, BUT THERE WAS A 2 STORY J.C. PENNEY STORE KIDDY CORNER TO BOSTON STORE. THE NORTHEAST CORNER WAS WHERE THE 2,500 SEAT ALHAMBRA STOOD. ALL I SAW ON THAT CORNER WAS A PARKING LOT. HOWEVER, THANKS TO A BOOK CALLED ?MILWAUKEE MOVIE PALACES? BY LARRY WIDEN AND JUDI ANDERSON (1986-MILWAUKEE COUNTY HISTORICAL SOCITY- SPONSORED BY THE MATC ALUMNI ASSOCIATION) I SEE GREEAT PHOTOS OF THE PALACES, AS WELL AS NEIGHBORHOOD THEATERS! THIS BLOCK CONTAINED THE 1,902 SEAT MAJESTIC THEATER (NOW A BANK, OFFICES AND PART OF THE SHOPS OF GRAND AVENUE AS WELL AS THE 471 SEAT?TELENEWS? (LATER THE ?ESQUIRE?) THE NEWS THEATER THAT DON TALKED ABOUT) WHILE AROUND THE CORNER WAS THE 1,700 SEAT MILLER (TOWNE) THEATER. MY DAD TOOK MY BROTHER AND I TO SEE THE JOHN WAYNE MOVIE ?HATARI.? THE REAL JEEP THAT WAS IN THE MOVIE WAS ON DISPLAY IN THE LOBBY! THE 900 SEAT PRINCESS THEATER WAS ACROSS THE STREET. BACK ON THE ABENUE WAS AN OUTDOOR NEWSSTAND AT THE CORNER, ANOTHER POPCORN STOE NEXT DOOR TO THE 2,431 SEAT WARNER THEATER. AT LEAST THEY TOOK BETTER CARE WHEN THEY SPLIT IT INTO 2 SCREENS (THE CENTRE ABD THE GRAND) THIS BRINGS UP TO THE 2,557 SEAT RIVERSIDE, WGHCH STILL BOOKS LIVE SHOWS. I?M VERY SORRY FOR VEERING OFF THE TOPIC OF RAIL AND BUSES, BUT THIS IS ANOTHER TOPIC OF INTEREST FIR ME, WHEN IT COMES TO MILWAUKEE HISTORY. > > From x779 at webtv.net Mon Nov 30 19:26:09 2009 From: x779 at webtv.net (Louis Rugani) Date: Tue, 01 Dec 2009 00:26:09 GMT Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Roads v. Rail. Message-ID: Forwarded here at Don Leistokow's request: -----Original Message----- From: Don L. Leistikow Sent: Monday, November 30, 2009 6:06 PM To: jdl896 at wi.rr.com Cc: X779 at webtv.net, emory1522 at wi.rr.com Subject: Re: [milwaukee-electric] Re: This and that ~ Speedrail jdl896 and list: Your comments appreciated by me and I'm sure by others, too! You missed the Whitehouse on Third Street .. how many seats were in there? As for the Marquette Interchange, we've been had. Governor Jim Doyle put his stamp of approval on rebuilding it to original imprint/status. No expansion was to be considered as contained in Plan 2, nor an expanded Cloverleaf imprint, which would have required condemnation of much additional private property. A scare tactic, I am sure. The key to what was to happen, was the Aldrich Bullding at 940 W. St.Paul Avenue. Originally built by TMER&L to house their new Freight Terminal, the basic property extended eastward from 10th street to 8th street and was approximately a half block wide for the most part. This building was to remain intact with the reconstruction of the Marquette Interchange. Some unusual happenings took place, such as Aldrich moving out to a north sid property, vacating the 940 building, why? Other properties were affected by relocations or private property reductions, why? Bottom line, Plan two was to be built as it became evident that the 940 building was being demolished. WisDOT had their way, regardless of Governor Doyle's absence of approval. IMHO, WisDOT has its way regardless of the consequences, of which there are non! As it now stnads, way up there in the air, the Marquette Interchange was built without regard for coating the Rebar with some form of plastic or like commodity, to enhance the life of the Rebar for a long extended life. Later on, I read that the project had come in under budget, well hooray! Sometime later, I read that the Rebar was not coated as specified, thus saving a great amount of money, which is why the project came in under budget. I suppose that had the Rebar been coated, the project may have come in over budget. Conjecture, of course. Another example; I 94 was proposed to be widened between the Illinois State Line and the Airport Interdhange, necessitating the removal of many small businesses along its borders. WisDOT had its way despite overt criticism of lack of funding. Well, they found a way to do it. On the other hand, we still seem to be unable to get a new electric rail transit line off the ground. Can it be that WisDOT simply does not favor Transit? I recall a meeting with SEWRPC way back in the late '80's or early '90's where our committee of some 40 persons visited in search of the development of Rail Transportation, o/t than Amtrak. We were told that such a program would come when it would be needed. Nothing has happened so far and I would guess that nothing will be coming in the future. Sprawl continues to grow and the CBD continues to lose population and industry. We still need balanced transportation and funding for it. The Freeway should be converted to a Tollway, which would be less attractive to local drivers. Half of the ramps should be removed in our Metro area. This combination would reduce travel on the Freeway thus, reducing the continuing need for resurfacing it on an average of every ten years... at a cost of over a million dollars per mile. Understand something... no one can tell us of the true impact of traffic on the freeway. Big 18 wheelers carry fuel tanks capable of supplying enough fuel to pass through our State, without dropping a dime in our coffers. And we pay for that! Ever wonder why those big trucks come through here, and not Madison? Could it be that I 90 is a Tollway? There is nothing Free, about the Freeway! Don L. Leistikow ps: Someone please forward this to the milwaukee-electric list. dll From ktjosephson at embarqmail.com Mon Nov 30 20:09:51 2009 From: ktjosephson at embarqmail.com (Ken and Tracie) Date: Mon, 30 Nov 2009 17:09:51 -0800 Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: This and that ~ Speedrail References: <20091130225648.B1JPU.240342.root@hrndva-web02-z02> Message-ID: <55997C63061E4698B362D9B38764431A@KTJosephson> Downtown was a very exciting place to see a movie or to go shopping, especially at night. It was THE place to do Christmas shopping. I miss those days. K. From x779 at webtv.net Mon Nov 30 20:56:31 2009 From: x779 at webtv.net (Louis Rugani) Date: Tue, 01 Dec 2009 01:56:31 GMT Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Kenosha: meeting Tuesday, December 1, at 5PM. Message-ID: This is the final meeting on whether or not the Streetcar line gets shut down entirely for budgetary reasons in January, February and March 2010, a stupid move indeed as it's one of Kenosha's biggest tourist draws. Aldermanic support does seem strong to find the $68,000 to keep it operating during those months. We feel confident that a good showing from citizens and railfans in the crowd will turn the tide in our favor. Spoken comments are encouraged. If you prefer not to speak, get there by 5 and sit there, and just raise your hand when we ask the crowd for a show of support. Thank you! Kenosha Municipal Building City Council Chambers, 2nd Floor 625 52nd Street (WI 158) Tuesday, 5 PM, December 1, 2010. Free parking adjacent.