From gSchnabl at SWDetroit.com Wed Jul 7 20:54:25 2010 From: gSchnabl at SWDetroit.com (Gary Schnabl) Date: Wed, 07 Jul 2010 20:54:25 -0400 Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Milwaukee-area Lustrons (1948 to 1950) Message-ID: <4C3521C1.8020909@SWDetroit.com> Some 2500 Lustron metal houses were constructed from 1948 to 1950, when the firm went bankrupt. Supposedly there were 21 in metro Milwaukee. However, only 15 of them have ever been accounted for. There is a LustronRegistry.(something or other) that is trying the account for them all. I have a possible lead on one of them, which was present in my neighborhood as a kid, but is no longer there. The vast majority of the Lustrons are still standing today--many almost identical in appearance to what they looked like over 60 years ago. Some were resided, but few were demoed. Because these houses were constructed during the time frame for much of Milwaukee's traction history, would anybody know where some of those unaccounted-for Milwaukee Lustrons might be? I thought that Henry Aaron lived in one either during 1954 or 1955 some six blocks from where I lived, so the registry folks are working on that angle. The Lustron #2 (a factory demonstrator) was opened in April or May of 1848 at 3802 West Capitol Drive and was on my uncle's Sentinel route when he was 15 years old, a year after he moved in with my young parents after his mother in Dearborn MI died a few years earlier. One can google that address for an aerial or street map search in case anybody forgot what a Lustron looked like. The Lustrons were all manufactured at the former Curtiss-Wright WWII airplane factory in Columbus OH and trucked to their sites in special trucks, which advertised the product enroute. Gary -- Gary Schnabl Southwest Detroit, two miles NORTH! of Canada--Windsor, that is... From DLeistikow at webtv.net Thu Jul 8 03:41:39 2010 From: DLeistikow at webtv.net (Don L. Leistikow) Date: Thu, 8 Jul 2010 02:41:39 -0500 Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: Milwaukee-area Lustrons (1948 to 1950) In-Reply-To: Gary Schnabl 's message of Wed, 07 Jul 2010 20:54:25 -0400 Message-ID: <26663-4C358133-2682@storefull-3173.bay.webtv.net> Gary S and list: Yes, I remember them. That was long ago. I recall some of them on the north side of town. Capitol Drive rings a bell as does Burleigh Street, in Wauwatosa. Surely there must be a way to trace these Lustron Homes.... sided with porcelain enameled metal panels. No painting, ever, just hose the house down. Ranch style construction, too. Perhaps tracing their location via Building Permits for 1948 thru 1950. If those records are now on internet files, the search could be quickly completed. Don L. From gSchnabl at SWDetroit.com Thu Jul 8 06:35:51 2010 From: gSchnabl at SWDetroit.com (Gary Schnabl) Date: Thu, 08 Jul 2010 06:35:51 -0400 Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: Milwaukee-area Lustrons (1948 to 1950) In-Reply-To: <26663-4C358133-2682@storefull-3173.bay.webtv.net> References: <26663-4C358133-2682@storefull-3173.bay.webtv.net> Message-ID: <4C35AA07.2080404@SWDetroit.com> On 7/8/2010 3:41 AM, Don L. Leistikow wrote: > Gary S and list: Yes, I remember them. That was long ago. > > I recall some of them on the north side of town. Capitol Drive rings a > bell as does Burleigh Street, in Wauwatosa. > > Surely there must be a way to trace these Lustron Homes.... sided with > porcelain enameled metal panels. No painting, ever, just hose the house > down. Ranch style construction, too. > > Perhaps tracing their location via Building Permits for 1948 thru 1950. > If those records are now on internet files, the search could be quickly > completed. > > Don L. > Yes, there are about six of them between 81st and 91st Streets in Wauwatosa--from a bit north of Burleigh to around North. I think that another Lustron was near Blue Mound Road, too. A Lustron could easily be moved, even with its ten tons of porcelain steel. The one I suspected that Aaron lived in is now essentially 1/2 block away on Marion or Sercombe (the original name for 39th Street). Records are inconclusive, as government records were not always accurate. However, that Lustron was repainted yellow, as some white shows in places. Sometime during the Great Depression, Lincoln Creek was rerouted from a meandering surface creek from Sherman and Congress through or skirting my grandfather's thirty acres north of 42nd and Capitol Drive then headed roughly SE to cross Capitol Drive twice--at 36th and 34th Streets--and then did a 180 inside the AO Smith plant's 160 acres at 35th Street. The original Lincoln Creek hindered Lake Street (now Capitol Drive) from around being built west of 27th Street to around 35th Street or whatever until the 1920s or so. All of those half dozen or so Lustrons on my uncle's paper route in 1948 were withinh 1/8 mile of the former route of Lincoln Creek, suggesting that they all were erected on newly reclaimed city lots after the creek detour at Congress Street--essentially an EW trench dug by the WPA or the CCC. I alerted the Lustron Registry to get those three Milwaukee maps that show the original Lincoln Creek, because most of the very few vacant lots that I noticed during 1950 were on the original Lincoln Creek's route. I suspected that Aaron's Lustron was on West Hope Avenue--the 3700 or 3800 blocks (even numbered). Assuming that my recollection as an 11-year-old kid was OK. We kids played many hundred games of hardball baseball from 1952 through 1955/56 in the large empty area, now occupied by a middle school, west of 36th Street and Hope. Aaron's house was on one of a few lots next to that field. Gary -- Gary Schnabl Southwest Detroit, two miles NORTH! of Canada--Windsor, that is... Technical Editor forum LinkedIn profile Elance profile From x779 at webtv.net Thu Jul 8 09:39:22 2010 From: x779 at webtv.net (Louis Rugani) Date: Thu, 08 Jul 2010 13:39:22 GMT Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Lustrons. Message-ID: We have four in Kenosha. =Lou= ~~~~~~~~~~ **-=\/=-** ~~~~~~~~~~ The opposite of bravery is not cowardice, but conformity.  Robert Anthony From gSchnabl at SWDetroit.com Thu Jul 8 10:04:48 2010 From: gSchnabl at SWDetroit.com (Gary Schnabl) Date: Thu, 08 Jul 2010 10:04:48 -0400 Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: Lustrons. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4C35DB00.5010402@SWDetroit.com> On 7/8/2010 9:39 AM, Louis Rugani wrote: > We have four in Kenosha. > > =Lou= > Madison has around a dozen--maybe a bit less, including one in its Monona suburb--which had the distinction of being one of the very few that did not survive a fire. It got so hot, it melted away... Wisconsin has about 110 or so, Illinois over 300, and Rockford itself has 119--nearly 5% of all Lustrons ever built. Gary -- Gary Schnabl Southwest Detroit, two miles NORTH! of Canada--Windsor, that is... From ktjosephson at embarqmail.com Thu Jul 8 12:39:27 2010 From: ktjosephson at embarqmail.com (Ken and Tracie) Date: Thu, 8 Jul 2010 09:39:27 -0700 Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: Milwaukee-area Lustrons (1948 to 1950) References: <26663-4C358133-2682@storefull-3173.bay.webtv.net> Message-ID: <623F0571C4CC4CC78A5B48D3F94667E3@KTJosephson> My understanding was that a group of them were given away to promote "All Electric Living." There were five or six built as part of this promotion. The ones my ever dimming memory recalls are: 1.) Roosevelt, between Fond du Lac and Sherman. 2.) Capitol, north side, just a few blocks west of N. 35th. 3.) N. 84th, Between Burleigh and Lisbon. 4.) Along my paper route, somewhere between Roosevelt, Keefe, N. 54 and N.56th Streets. There was/were one or two more, on the South Side, as I recall. K. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Don L. Leistikow" To: Sent: Thursday, July 08, 2010 12:41 AM Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: Milwaukee-area Lustrons (1948 to 1950) > Gary S and list: Yes, I remember them. That was long ago. > > I recall some of them on the north side of town. Capitol Drive rings a > bell as does Burleigh Street, in Wauwatosa. > > Surely there must be a way to trace these Lustron Homes.... sided with > porcelain enameled metal panels. No painting, ever, just hose the house > down. Ranch style construction, too. > > Perhaps tracing their location via Building Permits for 1948 thru 1950. > If those records are now on internet files, the search could be quickly > completed. > > Don L. > > From ktjosephson at embarqmail.com Thu Jul 8 12:58:58 2010 From: ktjosephson at embarqmail.com (Ken and Tracie) Date: Thu, 8 Jul 2010 09:58:58 -0700 Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: Milwaukee-area Lustrons (1948 to 1950) References: <26663-4C358133-2682@storefull-3173.bay.webtv.net> <4C35AA07.2080404@SWDetroit.com> Message-ID: Montreal and Toronto Streets bordered part of Lincoln Creek's original channel. I remember houses on north-south streets between Capitol and Congress, from about N. 38th Street to Sherman Boulevard having rural style mailboxes into the mid-1960s Before Lincoln Creek was re-routed, there was also a small "feeder" creek running north on the east side of N. 35th Street, which fed into Lincoln Creek on the south side of Capitol, along the edge of the A.O. Smith property. Quite a few creeks on Milwaukee's Northwest Side were placed into tunnels and/or re-aligned. Several met the "Dineen Park" creek right near Northwest General Hospital, near 53rd and Capitol. The Dineen Park creek and the creek originating at McGovern Park (or perhaps north of Silver Spring on the former House of Corrections/USDB property, now Havenwoods State Forest), both emerge from their tunnels, to empty into Lincoln Creek, near N. 48th and Congress. The creek which used to run east from about N. 78th Street and Marion roughly between Fiebrantz and Marion until "diagonal-ing" northeast at N. 65th, to cross Congress, Fond du Lac, then enter Lincoln Creek at about N.62nd Street, emerges from its tunnel, entering Lincoln Creek just above North 60th, just north of Fond du Lac. During the floods during the spring of 1974, the creek exiting Dineen Park, overtopped its tunnel at N. 63rd and Melvina, found its original path and severely damaged several homes along the way, between dispersing at N. 60th and Capitol. You can fool with Mother Nature, but you can't fool her. K. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gary Schnabl" To: Sent: Thursday, July 08, 2010 3:35 AM Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: Milwaukee-area Lustrons (1948 to 1950) > On 7/8/2010 3:41 AM, Don L. Leistikow wrote: >> Gary S and list: Yes, I remember them. That was long ago. >> >> I recall some of them on the north side of town. Capitol Drive rings a >> bell as does Burleigh Street, in Wauwatosa. >> >> Surely there must be a way to trace these Lustron Homes.... sided with >> porcelain enameled metal panels. No painting, ever, just hose the house >> down. Ranch style construction, too. >> >> Perhaps tracing their location via Building Permits for 1948 thru 1950. >> If those records are now on internet files, the search could be quickly >> completed. >> >> Don L. >> > Yes, there are about six of them between 81st and 91st Streets in > Wauwatosa--from a bit north of Burleigh to around North. I think that > another Lustron was near Blue Mound Road, too. > > A Lustron could easily be moved, even with its ten tons of porcelain > steel. The one I suspected that Aaron lived in is now essentially 1/2 > block away on Marion or Sercombe (the original name for 39th Street). > Records are inconclusive, as government records were not always > accurate. However, that Lustron was repainted yellow, as some white > shows in places. > > Sometime during the Great Depression, Lincoln Creek was rerouted from a > meandering surface creek from Sherman and Congress through or skirting > my grandfather's thirty acres north of 42nd and Capitol Drive then > headed roughly SE to cross Capitol Drive twice--at 36th and 34th > Streets--and then did a 180 inside the AO Smith plant's 160 acres at > 35th Street. The original Lincoln Creek hindered Lake Street (now > Capitol Drive) from around being built west of 27th Street to around > 35th Street or whatever until the 1920s or so. > > All of those half dozen or so Lustrons on my uncle's paper route in 1948 > were withinh 1/8 mile of the former route of Lincoln Creek, suggesting > that they all were erected on newly reclaimed city lots after the creek > detour at Congress Street--essentially an EW trench dug by the WPA or > the CCC. I alerted the Lustron Registry to get those three Milwaukee > maps that show the original Lincoln Creek, because most of the very few > vacant lots that I noticed during 1950 were on the original Lincoln > Creek's route. > > I suspected that Aaron's Lustron was on West Hope Avenue--the 3700 or > 3800 blocks (even numbered). Assuming that my recollection as an > 11-year-old kid was OK. We kids played many hundred games of hardball > baseball from 1952 through 1955/56 in the large empty area, now occupied > by a middle school, west of 36th Street and Hope. Aaron's house was on > one of a few lots next to that field. > > > Gary > > -- > > Gary Schnabl > Southwest Detroit, two miles NORTH! of Canada--Windsor, that is... > > Technical Editor forum > > LinkedIn profile > > Elance profile > > > > > From gSchnabl at SWDetroit.com Thu Jul 8 13:13:20 2010 From: gSchnabl at SWDetroit.com (Gary Schnabl) Date: Thu, 08 Jul 2010 13:13:20 -0400 Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: Milwaukee-area Lustrons (1948 to 1950) In-Reply-To: <623F0571C4CC4CC78A5B48D3F94667E3@KTJosephson> References: <26663-4C358133-2682@storefull-3173.bay.webtv.net> <623F0571C4CC4CC78A5B48D3F94667E3@KTJosephson> Message-ID: <4C360730.6050707@SWDetroit.com> On 7/8/2010 12:39 PM, Ken and Tracie wrote: > My understanding was that a group of them were given away to promote "All > Electric Living." There were five or six built as part of this promotion. > The ones my ever dimming memory recalls are: > > 1.) Roosevelt, between Fond du Lac and Sherman. > Good. I will pass that on to Rick Allen, the guy who maintains the Lustron Registry. I lived two/three blocks away from Sherman and Roosevelt. My family sold the last two lots of the "farm" on Capitol back during 1968 or 1969. Green Bay Packer--Willie Davis--owns that property nowadays. Davis was not its first owner, though. It first became a welfare-department/unemployment-compensation branch office back then--but no longer. > 2.) Capitol, north side, just a few blocks west of N. 35th. > Lustron #2 was factory built at 3802 West Capitol Drive--opened after the long, heavy rains finally stopped during May 1948. My school was at 38th and Keefe--1/2 mile south, so I passed by that one nearly daily going home to 4206 West Capitol Drive--where the speed limit was 190, so say the road signs there. Or was that its Wisconsin highway number? > 3.) N. 84th, Between Burleigh and Lisbon. > That might be the one in the North 3400 block of those between 81st and 91st Streets in Wauwatosa. I will have to check back. > 4.) Along my paper route, somewhere between Roosevelt, Keefe, N. 54 and > N.56th Streets. > This one might be another winner, as it--like the one on Roosevelt--was not in the registry. Perhaps, two or three of the six missing Milwaukee-area Lustrons might now be identified--along with the Aaron Lustron. My own Sentinel route included 51st through 53rd Streets there, by Keefe--the very same, mostly Jewish neighborhood. The parents of Herbert Kohl and Bud Selig, lived on 51st and 52nd Streets, respectively. They were eight years older than I, so I never met them--or even knew about them then, as they were sophomore frat-house roommates at the University of Wisconsin-Madison during 1955 when I was a sixth grader... > There was/were one or two more, on the South Side, as I recall. > I believe the registry listed one or more on the "SoutSite." Gary > K. > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Don L. Leistikow" > To: > Sent: Thursday, July 08, 2010 12:41 AM > Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: Milwaukee-area Lustrons (1948 to 1950) > > > >> Gary S and list: Yes, I remember them. That was long ago. >> >> I recall some of them on the north side of town. Capitol Drive rings a >> bell as does Burleigh Street, in Wauwatosa. >> >> Surely there must be a way to trace these Lustron Homes.... sided with >> porcelain enameled metal panels. No painting, ever, just hose the house >> down. Ranch style construction, too. >> >> Perhaps tracing their location via Building Permits for 1948 thru 1950. >> If those records are now on internet files, the search could be quickly >> completed. >> >> Don L. >> >> >> > > -- Gary Schnabl Southwest Detroit, two miles NORTH! of Canada--Windsor, that is... Technical Editor forum LinkedIn profile Elance profile From gSchnabl at SWDetroit.com Thu Jul 8 13:46:00 2010 From: gSchnabl at SWDetroit.com (Gary Schnabl) Date: Thu, 08 Jul 2010 13:46:00 -0400 Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: Milwaukee-area Lustrons (1948 to 1950) In-Reply-To: References: <26663-4C358133-2682@storefull-3173.bay.webtv.net> <4C35AA07.2080404@SWDetroit.com> Message-ID: <4C360ED8.1070200@SWDetroit.com> Aaron's house was right where Toronto started--at Hope. There were two creeks in the Capitol Court marsh that feed into the Lincoln Creek. One creek started a bit south of Capitol between 52nd and 53rd and headed into Capitol Court before being rerouted into storm sewers after the Capitol Court shopping center was built. Another small creek led into it and then the resulting creek pretty much went straight east down Hope (or Oak, its former name). Then it headed into the Lincoln Creek at around 44th or 45th Streets before the government built the state's first welfare project--Parklawn--in the 40 acres between Sherman and 47th Streets and between Hope and Congress. When the project was built under FDR, that creek was rerouted into the "excrement-laden" storm sewer below 47th Street at the creek. That location still is numero uno or dos in Milwaukee's water pollution, to this day. Parklawn is still a welfare project--the only project anywhere with its own YMCA, after it was completely made over. Another creek (or a dug culvert) entered the Lincoln Creek from the north about a block below the 47th Street "dam," where I went crabbing a lot since I was five years old. It was easy to catch 50 to 100 crayfish in a short time at the "dam" with cords and salt pork or bacon pieces. Either boiled and ate them or sold them to eager fisherman--good money in those days... On 7/8/2010 12:58 PM, Ken and Tracie wrote: > Montreal and Toronto Streets bordered part of Lincoln Creek's original > channel. > > I remember houses on north-south streets between Capitol and Congress, from > about N. 38th Street to Sherman Boulevard having rural style mailboxes into > the mid-1960s > > Before Lincoln Creek was re-routed, there was also a small "feeder" creek > running north on the east side of N. 35th Street, which fed into Lincoln > Creek on the south side of Capitol, along the edge of the A.O. Smith > property. > That "feeder" creek was most likely the same Lincoln Creek after it turned around in the AO Smith property. The railroad had a big yard there by the Gehl dairy on Capitol Drive. The original creek might have gone into the yard for a very short distance. I remember seeing what I initially thought was a spring east of 35th and Congress. but more than likely, it was waste water from the yard because oil was often present in the flowing water that trickled down into the rerouted creek. > Quite a few creeks on Milwaukee's Northwest Side were placed into tunnels > and/or re-aligned. > > Several met the "Dineen Park" creek right near Northwest General Hospital, > near 53rd and Capitol. > > The Dineen Park creek and the creek originating at McGovern Park (or perhaps > north of Silver Spring on the former House of Corrections/USDB property, now > Havenwoods State Forest), both emerge from their tunnels, to empty into > Lincoln Creek, near N. 48th and Congress. > I would occasionally fish or crab at McGovern Park. I thought that the park's lagoon emptied into a storm sewer, south of the park. I never ventured north or west past McGovern Park, as a kid--too far from home... But I had a more-distant relative who once owned a fair amount of undeveloped property just to the west of the park. > The creek which used to run east from about N. 78th Street and Marion > roughly between Fiebrantz and Marion until "diagonal-ing" northeast at N. > 65th, to cross Congress, Fond du Lac, then enter Lincoln Creek at about > N.62nd Street, emerges from its tunnel, entering Lincoln Creek just above > North 60th, just north of Fond du Lac. > > During the floods during the spring of 1974, the creek exiting Dineen Park, > overtopped its tunnel at N. 63rd and Melvina, found its original path and > severely damaged several homes along the way, between dispersing at N. 60th > and Capitol. > > You can fool with Mother Nature, but you can't fool her. > > K. > The government planned to only spend around $10 million or so, cleaning up and altering Lincoln Creek. I believe the ultimate cost was around $125 million... > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Gary Schnabl" > To: > Sent: Thursday, July 08, 2010 3:35 AM > Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: Milwaukee-area Lustrons (1948 to 1950) > > > >> On 7/8/2010 3:41 AM, Don L. Leistikow wrote: >> >>> Gary S and list: Yes, I remember them. That was long ago. >>> >>> I recall some of them on the north side of town. Capitol Drive rings a >>> bell as does Burleigh Street, in Wauwatosa. >>> >>> Surely there must be a way to trace these Lustron Homes.... sided with >>> porcelain enameled metal panels. No painting, ever, just hose the house >>> down. Ranch style construction, too. >>> >>> Perhaps tracing their location via Building Permits for 1948 thru 1950. >>> If those records are now on internet files, the search could be quickly >>> completed. >>> >>> Don L. >>> >>> >> Yes, there are about six of them between 81st and 91st Streets in >> Wauwatosa--from a bit north of Burleigh to around North. I think that >> another Lustron was near Blue Mound Road, too. >> >> A Lustron could easily be moved, even with its ten tons of porcelain >> steel. The one I suspected that Aaron lived in is now essentially 1/2 >> block away on Marion or Sercombe (the original name for 39th Street). >> Records are inconclusive, as government records were not always >> accurate. However, that Lustron was repainted yellow, as some white >> shows in places. >> >> Sometime during the Great Depression, Lincoln Creek was rerouted from a >> meandering surface creek from Sherman and Congress through or skirting >> my grandfather's thirty acres north of 42nd and Capitol Drive then >> headed roughly SE to cross Capitol Drive twice--at 36th and 34th >> Streets--and then did a 180 inside the AO Smith plant's 160 acres at >> 35th Street. The original Lincoln Creek hindered Lake Street (now >> Capitol Drive) from around being built west of 27th Street to around >> 35th Street or whatever until the 1920s or so. >> >> All of those half dozen or so Lustrons on my uncle's paper route in 1948 >> were withinh 1/8 mile of the former route of Lincoln Creek, suggesting >> that they all were erected on newly reclaimed city lots after the creek >> detour at Congress Street--essentially an EW trench dug by the WPA or >> the CCC. I alerted the Lustron Registry to get those three Milwaukee >> maps that show the original Lincoln Creek, because most of the very few >> vacant lots that I noticed during 1950 were on the original Lincoln >> Creek's route. >> >> I suspected that Aaron's Lustron was on West Hope Avenue--the 3700 or >> 3800 blocks (even numbered). Assuming that my recollection as an >> 11-year-old kid was OK. We kids played many hundred games of hardball >> baseball from 1952 through 1955/56 in the large empty area, now occupied >> by a middle school, west of 36th Street and Hope. Aaron's house was on >> one of a few lots next to that field. >> >> >> Gary >> > > -- Gary Schnabl Southwest Detroit, two miles NORTH! of Canada--Windsor, that is... Technical Editor forum LinkedIn profile Elance profile From gSchnabl at SWDetroit.com Sat Jul 10 22:16:34 2010 From: gSchnabl at SWDetroit.com (Gary Schnabl) Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2010 22:16:34 -0400 Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: Milwaukee-area Lustrons (1948 to 1950) In-Reply-To: <623F0571C4CC4CC78A5B48D3F94667E3@KTJosephson> References: <26663-4C358133-2682@storefull-3173.bay.webtv.net> <623F0571C4CC4CC78A5B48D3F94667E3@KTJosephson> Message-ID: <4C392982.5070600@SWDetroit.com> On 7/8/2010 12:39 PM, Ken and Tracie wrote: > My understanding was that a group of them were given away to promote "All > Electric Living." There were five or six built as part of this promotion. > The ones my ever dimming memory recalls are: > > 1.) Roosevelt, between Fond du Lac and Sherman. > I did both a GoogleEarth and a MapQuest of Sherman and Roosevelt. There are now a couple small duplexes west of 44th. I then tracked Roosevelt up to Fond du Lac. At the NW corner, the old Seaman residence (of Seaman-Gunderson heavy equipment) from that era was still there. (The Seaman's kid was a classmate of mine at St. John de Nepomuc and MUHS.) The former, once-popular Carvel frozen custard stand across the street from Seaman's now is an empty lot--just concrete... Having somewhat of a pornographic memory, I did not remember any Lustron there in my own former "back yard" during 1946 through 1968 in the 4300 or 4400 blocks of Roosevelt. Might you know its relation to anything there? I seem to recall that the 4300 block (even) was vacant lots. The church and school and (possibly) the Jewish synagogue took up all the odd side of Roosevelt in that triangular block. > 2.) Capitol, north side, just a few blocks west of N. 35th. > > 3.) N. 84th, Between Burleigh and Lisbon. > This might be a winner, as the Lustron Registry does not list one there (two were close...): http://www.lustronpreservation.org/lounge/locator/lustron-locator?cmd=search&startAt=0&endAt=30&stateId=59&searchText=milwaukee&searchField=2&modelId=0&colorId=0&threatId=0&alterationId=0&zip=&street=&showall=Show+ALL+Lustrons > 4.) Along my paper route, somewhere between Roosevelt, Keefe, N. 54 and > N.56th Streets. > Still have to scope this one out yet... > There was/were one or two more, on the South Side, as I recall. > > K. > Gary -- Gary Schnabl Southwest Detroit, two miles NORTH! of Canada--Windsor, that is... From ktjosephson at embarqmail.com Sun Jul 11 13:13:38 2010 From: ktjosephson at embarqmail.com (Ken and Tracie) Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2010 10:13:38 -0700 Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: Milwaukee-area Lustrons (1948 to 1950) References: <26663-4C358133-2682@storefull-3173.bay.webtv.net> <623F0571C4CC4CC78A5B48D3F94667E3@KTJosephson> <4C392982.5070600@SWDetroit.com> Message-ID: <6928774E5C10499282721C1A88343864@KTJosephson> It is somewhere close, if not directly on Roosevelt. I am probably wrong, but I thought it was next to those two houses which were built as "mirror images" of each other. K. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gary Schnabl" To: Sent: Saturday, July 10, 2010 7:16 PM Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: Milwaukee-area Lustrons (1948 to 1950) > On 7/8/2010 12:39 PM, Ken and Tracie wrote: >> My understanding was that a group of them were given away to promote "All >> Electric Living." There were five or six built as part of this promotion. >> The ones my ever dimming memory recalls are: >> >> 1.) Roosevelt, between Fond du Lac and Sherman. >> > I did both a GoogleEarth and a MapQuest of Sherman and Roosevelt. There > are now a couple small duplexes west of 44th. I then tracked Roosevelt > up to Fond du Lac. At the NW corner, the old Seaman residence (of > Seaman-Gunderson heavy equipment) from that era was still there. (The > Seaman's kid was a classmate of mine at St. John de Nepomuc and MUHS.) > The former, once-popular Carvel frozen custard stand across the street > from Seaman's now is an empty lot--just concrete... From ktjosephson at embarqmail.com Sun Jul 11 15:11:55 2010 From: ktjosephson at embarqmail.com (Ken and Tracie) Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2010 12:11:55 -0700 Subject: [milwaukee-electric] 1930s Transport Company Map, Showing the Creeks Message-ID: <3240F82843614795A65E86843C4250F5@KTJosephson> This map was made shortly after Lincoln Creek was placed in a channel in = the the center of Congress from about 47th, but before the Dineen, = "Marion" and "McGovern" creeks were placed in tunnels. Also, it appears = Lincoln Creek above Fond du Lac was still in a natural bed.=20 So it appears that the creeks entered Lincoln Creek at about 45th = Street, not 48th as I mistakenly indicated. In fact, a Google Earth = photo shows the tunnels at about 45th. The "McGovern Park" creek was = already in a tunnel above Hampton when this map was made. Now it exits = at the eastbound lanes of Hampton, probably done when Hampton was = widened. There was a small Red Owl grocery store there. It is now a drug = store. K. -- Attached file removed by Ecartis and put at URL below -- -- Type: image/jpeg -- Size: 1348k (1380864 bytes) -- URL : http://lists.dementia.org/files/milwaukee-electric/creeks.jpg From ktjosephson at embarqmail.com Sun Jul 11 15:21:27 2010 From: ktjosephson at embarqmail.com (Ken and Tracie) Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2010 12:21:27 -0700 Subject: [milwaukee-electric] A Little More About the Creeks Message-ID: <90A68AE95FCD4B57B619954AC43D8153@KTJosephson> I used blue lines to show (roughly) where the two other tributary creeks = were when they were on the surface, as well as a not quite exact = location of Lincoln Creek's channel east of N. 47th Street: -- Attached file removed by Ecartis and put at URL below -- -- Type: image/jpeg -- Size: 165k (169107 bytes) -- URL : http://lists.dementia.org/files/milwaukee-electric/creeks2.jpg From gSchnabl at SWDetroit.com Sun Jul 11 18:31:28 2010 From: gSchnabl at SWDetroit.com (Gary Schnabl) Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2010 18:31:28 -0400 Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: 1930s Transport Company Map, Showing the Creeks In-Reply-To: <3240F82843614795A65E86843C4250F5@KTJosephson> References: <3240F82843614795A65E86843C4250F5@KTJosephson> Message-ID: <4C3A4640.7060707@SWDetroit.com> On 7/11/2010 3:11 PM, Ken and Tracie wrote: > Content-Type: text/plain; > charset="iso-8859-1" > Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > This map was made shortly after Lincoln Creek was placed in a channel in = > the the center of Congress from about 47th, but before the Dineen, = > "Marion" and "McGovern" creeks were placed in tunnels. Also, it appears = > Lincoln Creek above Fond du Lac was still in a natural bed.=20 > > So it appears that the creeks entered Lincoln Creek at about 45th = > Street, not 48th as I mistakenly indicated. In fact, a Google Earth = > photo shows the tunnels at about 45th. The "McGovern Park" creek was = > already in a tunnel above Hampton when this map was made. Now it exits = > at the eastbound lanes of Hampton, probably done when Hampton was = > widened. There was a small Red Owl grocery store there. It is now a drug = > store. > > K. > The Milwaukee maps 1928 and before definitely show that creek from Capitol Court tying into the Lincoln Creek at about 45th after it veered two blocks to the north from Hope at around 45th. That meant it flowed right down the strike zone in the Parklawn welfare project before its construction. My father frequented a victory garden near 45th and Hope around 1948 or so--the only vacant lot there, as I remember. Some of that area around 45th and Hope was still outside the Milwaukee city limits then. When I attended kindergarten during 1948/49 at Pleasant View (49th & Capitol), there was a city-limits sign at the corner of 49th and Capitol Drive for the eastbound traffic to see. The Milwaukee city limits sign kept steadily moving westward during the 1950s: to 60th, then 76th or so, until finally taking in all what was outside of Wauwatosa on Capitol. BTW, although I have been in Detroit since 1997, I occasionally listen to Milwaukee radio stations. One time, some caller was talking about Sherman Blvd in the early 1930s (1932?) being the last macadam street built in Milwaukee--hence, its being a "No trucking route" and having those smaller green buses afterward for a time. Gary -- Gary Schnabl Southwest Detroit, two miles NORTH! of Canada--Windsor, that is... Technical Editor forum LinkedIn profile Elance profile From ktjosephson at embarqmail.com Sun Jul 11 18:45:02 2010 From: ktjosephson at embarqmail.com (Ken and Tracie) Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2010 15:45:02 -0700 Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: 1930s Transport Company Map, Showing the Creeks References: <3240F82843614795A65E86843C4250F5@KTJosephson> <4C3A4640.7060707@SWDetroit.com> Message-ID: <2D8B06603CF34907AD143EC28EDDCA7C@KTJosephson> One map I have shows it that way, a 1927 TM map. Another map shows it flowing into the other Lincoln Creek tributary (the one originating in Holy Cross cemetery) near about 54th, just north of Capitol Drive. No guarantee the latter map was accurate. That may have been a proposed re-routing and they just put it in the tunnel instead and the map maker jumped the gun. Looking at the Google Earth map, the tunnels for the creeks from McGovern Park and Holy Cross Cemetery via Dineen park, actually enter Lincoln Creek almost directly across from each other at 47th Street, not 45th. My mistake. I should checked the street numbers before my last posting. I know that there was concern about moving "Old Smokey" (the Milwaukee Road 4-8-4 steam locomotive # 265) to Capitol Court due to the tunnels. It was on display on the South Side and had to be moved. Capitol Court management initially wanted it, but changed their mind. As we all know, it wound up at the Illinois Railway Museum. K. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gary Schnabl" To: Sent: Sunday, July 11, 2010 3:31 PM Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: 1930s Transport Company Map, Showing the Creeks > On 7/11/2010 3:11 PM, Ken and Tracie wrote: >> Content-Type: text/plain; >> charset="iso-8859-1" >> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable >> This map was made shortly after Lincoln Creek was placed in a channel in >> = >> the the center of Congress from about 47th, but before the Dineen, = >> "Marion" and "McGovern" creeks were placed in tunnels. Also, it appears = >> Lincoln Creek above Fond du Lac was still in a natural bed.=20 >> >> So it appears that the creeks entered Lincoln Creek at about 45th = >> Street, not 48th as I mistakenly indicated. In fact, a Google Earth = >> photo shows the tunnels at about 45th. The "McGovern Park" creek was = >> already in a tunnel above Hampton when this map was made. Now it exits = >> at the eastbound lanes of Hampton, probably done when Hampton was = >> widened. There was a small Red Owl grocery store there. It is now a drug >> = >> store. >> >> K. >> > The Milwaukee maps 1928 and before definitely show that creek from > Capitol Court tying into the Lincoln Creek at about 45th after it veered > two blocks to the north from Hope at around 45th. That meant it flowed > right down the strike zone in the Parklawn welfare project before its > construction. My father frequented a victory garden near 45th and Hope > around 1948 or so--the only vacant lot there, as I remember. > > Some of that area around 45th and Hope was still outside the Milwaukee > city limits then. When I attended kindergarten during 1948/49 at > Pleasant View (49th & Capitol), there was a city-limits sign at the > corner of 49th and Capitol Drive for the eastbound traffic to see. The > Milwaukee city limits sign kept steadily moving westward during the > 1950s: to 60th, then 76th or so, until finally taking in all what was > outside of Wauwatosa on Capitol. > > BTW, although I have been in Detroit since 1997, I occasionally listen > to Milwaukee radio stations. One time, some caller was talking about > Sherman Blvd in the early 1930s (1932?) being the last macadam street > built in Milwaukee--hence, its being a "No trucking route" and having > those smaller green buses afterward for a time. > > > Gary > > > -- > > Gary Schnabl > Southwest Detroit, two miles NORTH! of Canada--Windsor, that is... > > Technical Editor forum > > LinkedIn profile > > Elance profile > > > > > From gSchnabl at SWDetroit.com Sun Jul 11 18:49:53 2010 From: gSchnabl at SWDetroit.com (Gary Schnabl) Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2010 18:49:53 -0400 Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: A Little More About the Creeks In-Reply-To: <90A68AE95FCD4B57B619954AC43D8153@KTJosephson> References: <90A68AE95FCD4B57B619954AC43D8153@KTJosephson> Message-ID: <4C3A4A91.70308@SWDetroit.com> On 7/11/2010 3:21 PM, Ken and Tracie wrote: > Content-Type: text/plain; > charset="iso-8859-1" > Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > I used blue lines to show (roughly) where the two other tributary creeks = > were when they were on the surface, as well as a not quite exact = > location of Lincoln Creek's channel east of N. 47th Street: > > > > > -- Attached file removed by Ecartis and put at URL below -- > -- Type: image/jpeg > -- Size: 165k (169107 bytes) > -- URL : http://lists.dementia.org/files/milwaukee-electric/creeks2.jpg > You have the original creek at bit to the south than I believe it to have been. One case in point. Sercombe--the original older name for 39th in semirural Milwaukee was veered to the NE north of 39th and Hope in order to cross the creek perpendicularly, requiring a shorter bridge (or causeway of some sort) in 1900. You have it crossing the NS part of Sercombe instead of the NE/SW part. I think a pre-1900 map shows the creek--maybe not. The only platted streets back then were Marion, west of 35th for a couple blocks and Sercombe--connecting with Marion. Nothing south of Marion on 35th. There were two street bridges crossing the rerouted Lincoln Creek afterwards--one at 37th and the other at 35th. I always thought it strange to have two bridges so close together. Until Banner Lumber was built around 1955 or so, there was nothing east of 35th Street north of Hope, I thought. Yesterday, while running a web search on Banner Lumber, all I could come up with was an obit in a Jewish newsletter for the president of Banner Lumber, which stated that Lewin--his surname--came from Philly to Milwaukee in 1954. Gary -- Gary Schnabl Southwest Detroit, two miles NORTH! of Canada--Windsor, that is... Technical Editor forum LinkedIn profile Elance profile From ktjosephson at embarqmail.com Sun Jul 11 19:13:16 2010 From: ktjosephson at embarqmail.com (Ken and Tracie) Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2010 16:13:16 -0700 Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: A Little More About the Creeks References: <90A68AE95FCD4B57B619954AC43D8153@KTJosephson> <4C3A4A91.70308@SWDetroit.com> Message-ID: <418EFE963A1A426D868DA2088ABD5F84@KTJosephson> Thanks, Gary. I noted I didn't have it quite right. I have maps with it in its correct spot, just have them boxed away. I need to get out that early 1900s USGS map showing the dam and pond north of Capitol. K. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gary Schnabl" To: Sent: Sunday, July 11, 2010 3:49 PM Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: A Little More About the Creeks > On 7/11/2010 3:21 PM, Ken and Tracie wrote: >> Content-Type: text/plain; >> charset="iso-8859-1" >> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable >> I used blue lines to show (roughly) where the two other tributary creeks >> = >> were when they were on the surface, as well as a not quite exact = >> location of Lincoln Creek's channel east of N. 47th Street: >> >> >> >> >> -- Attached file removed by Ecartis and put at URL below -- >> -- Type: image/jpeg >> -- Size: 165k (169107 bytes) >> -- URL : http://lists.dementia.org/files/milwaukee-electric/creeks2.jpg >> > You have the original creek at bit to the south than I believe it to > have been. One case in point. Sercombe--the original older name for 39th > in semirural Milwaukee was veered to the NE north of 39th and Hope in > order to cross the creek perpendicularly, requiring a shorter bridge (or > causeway of some sort) in 1900. You have it crossing the NS part of > Sercombe instead of the NE/SW part. > > I think a pre-1900 map shows the creek--maybe not. The only platted > streets back then were Marion, west of 35th for a couple blocks and > Sercombe--connecting with Marion. Nothing south of Marion on 35th. There > were two street bridges crossing the rerouted Lincoln Creek > afterwards--one at 37th and the other at 35th. I always thought it > strange to have two bridges so close together. > > Until Banner Lumber was built around 1955 or so, there was nothing east > of 35th Street north of Hope, I thought. Yesterday, while running a web > search on Banner Lumber, all I could come up with was an obit in a > Jewish newsletter for the president of Banner Lumber, which stated that > Lewin--his surname--came from Philly to Milwaukee in 1954. > > > Gary > > -- > > Gary Schnabl > Southwest Detroit, two miles NORTH! of Canada--Windsor, that is... > > Technical Editor forum > > LinkedIn profile > > Elance profile > > > > > From gSchnabl at SWDetroit.com Sun Jul 11 19:13:55 2010 From: gSchnabl at SWDetroit.com (Gary Schnabl) Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2010 19:13:55 -0400 Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: 1930s Transport Company Map, Showing the Creeks In-Reply-To: <2D8B06603CF34907AD143EC28EDDCA7C@KTJosephson> References: <3240F82843614795A65E86843C4250F5@KTJosephson> <4C3A4640.7060707@SWDetroit.com> <2D8B06603CF34907AD143EC28EDDCA7C@KTJosephson> Message-ID: <4C3A5033.9030800@SWDetroit.com> On 7/11/2010 6:45 PM, Ken and Tracie wrote: > One map I have shows it that way, a 1927 TM map. Another map shows it > flowing into the other Lincoln Creek tributary (the one originating in Holy > Cross cemetery) near about 54th, just north of Capitol Drive. No guarantee > the latter map was accurate. That may have been a proposed re-routing and > they just put it in the tunnel instead and the map maker jumped the gun. > I did not know there was a cemetery at 54th. The older creek between 52nd and 53rd, south of Capitol Drive, was heading roughly NNW, so that might have been the very same creek in the cemetery. There was a church and school on the odd side of 5200 West Capitol (corner of 53rd), and that former creek would have have to go right through that property once before probably its being shunted into a sewer or having its source of water dried up. Somehow, I stopped noticing the (two?) small creeks in the area west of Fond du Lac around 1955, when I started delivering papers near there. > Looking at the Google Earth map, the tunnels for the creeks from McGovern > Park and Holy Cross Cemetery via Dineen park, actually enter Lincoln Creek > almost directly across from each other at 47th Street, not 45th. My mistake. > I should checked the street numbers before my last posting. > From my own spelunking as a kid, there was a rather large (stinking) storm sewer just south of the southern Congress and a bit west of 47th. Reports still indicate its being polluted. At about that same point, there was a straight trench going due NS and emptying into the creek from the north. The current maps show it being rerouted and bent during its final 700 feet or so. I assume that the CCC simply dug that trench at around 46 1/2 Street for rain runoff. It was mostly a "temporary" stream during the early 1950s, except after a rainfall. The area to the north of the creek at the 47th Street dam was a rather steep hill, considering the short horizontal distance, with a small woods there. It probably took in much of the north side of the creek from 46 1/2 Street to until about 49th Street or a bit to the east of that. There was just one (farm?) house there, either on 47th or 48th Street, facing to the east with a fence around it and backing on the creek. I remember that a rather cute girl about my age lived there... Gary > I know that there was concern about moving "Old Smokey" (the Milwaukee Road > 4-8-4 steam locomotive # 265) to Capitol Court due to the tunnels. It was on > display on the South Side and had to be moved. Capitol Court management > initially wanted it, but changed their mind. > > As we all know, it wound up at the Illinois Railway Museum. > > K. > -- Gary Schnabl Southwest Detroit, two miles NORTH! of Canada--Windsor, that is... Technical Editor forum LinkedIn profile Elance profile From ktjosephson at embarqmail.com Sun Jul 11 19:17:40 2010 From: ktjosephson at embarqmail.com (Ken and Tracie) Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2010 16:17:40 -0700 Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: 1930s Transport Company Map, Showing the Creeks References: <3240F82843614795A65E86843C4250F5@KTJosephson> <4C3A4640.7060707@SWDetroit.com> <2D8B06603CF34907AD143EC28EDDCA7C@KTJosephson> <4C3A5033.9030800@SWDetroit.com> Message-ID: No cemetery at 54th and Capitol. The creek originated in Holy Cross cemetery west of Appleton and south of Keefe. I apologize for not making that clear. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gary Schnabl" To: Sent: Sunday, July 11, 2010 4:13 PM Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: 1930s Transport Company Map, Showing the Creeks > I did not know there was a cemetery at 54th. The older creek between > 52nd and 53rd, south of Capitol Drive, was heading roughly NNW, so that > might have been the very same creek in the cemetery. There was a church > and school on the odd side of 5200 West Capitol (corner of 53rd), and > that former creek would have have to go right through that property once > before probably its being shunted into a sewer or having its source of > water dried up. > From sunrise at bikethehoan.com Sun Jul 11 19:43:42 2010 From: sunrise at bikethehoan.com (William Sell) Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2010 18:43:42 -0500 Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: Milwaukee-area Lustrons (1948 to 1950) In-Reply-To: <6928774E5C10499282721C1A88343864@KTJosephson> References: <26663-4C358133-2682@storefull-3173.bay.webtv.net> <623F0571C4CC4CC78A5B48D3F94667E3@KTJosephson> <4C392982.5070600@SWDetroit.com> <6928774E5C10499282721C1A88343864@KTJosephson> Message-ID: <4c3a5c9d.5c4ee50a.10dc.6685@mx.google.com> Harry Seaman and family moved to Mequon quite a few years ago. Still active as a musician. I helped them move out of that house. Bill At 12:13 PM 7/11/2010, Ken and Tracie wrote: >It is somewhere close, if not directly on Roosevelt. I am probably wrong, >but I thought it was next to those two houses which were built as "mirror >images" of each other. > >K. >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Gary Schnabl" >To: >Sent: Saturday, July 10, 2010 7:16 PM >Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: Milwaukee-area Lustrons (1948 to 1950) > > > > On 7/8/2010 12:39 PM, Ken and Tracie wrote: > >> My understanding was that a group of them were given away to promote "All > >> Electric Living." There were five or six built as part of this promotion. > >> The ones my ever dimming memory recalls are: > >> > >> 1.) Roosevelt, between Fond du Lac and Sherman. > >> > > I did both a GoogleEarth and a MapQuest of Sherman and Roosevelt. There > > are now a couple small duplexes west of 44th. I then tracked Roosevelt > > up to Fond du Lac. At the NW corner, the old Seaman residence (of > > Seaman-Gunderson heavy equipment) from that era was still there. (The > > Seaman's kid was a classmate of mine at St. John de Nepomuc and MUHS.) > > The former, once-popular Carvel frozen custard stand across the street > > from Seaman's now is an empty lot--just concrete... }><((( " > }><((( " > }><((( " > }><((( " > }><((( " > }><((( " > }><((( " > } ><((( " > < " )))><{~~~~ }><((( " > }><((( " > }><((( " > }><((( " > }><((( " > }><((( " > }><((( " > }><((( " > }><((( " > }><((( " > From gSchnabl at SWDetroit.com Sun Jul 11 20:43:26 2010 From: gSchnabl at SWDetroit.com (Gary Schnabl) Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2010 20:43:26 -0400 Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: A Little More About the Creeks In-Reply-To: <418EFE963A1A426D868DA2088ABD5F84@KTJosephson> References: <90A68AE95FCD4B57B619954AC43D8153@KTJosephson> <4C3A4A91.70308@SWDetroit.com> <418EFE963A1A426D868DA2088ABD5F84@KTJosephson> Message-ID: <4C3A652E.3070901@SWDetroit.com> On 7/11/2010 7:13 PM, Ken and Tracie wrote: > Thanks, Gary. I noted I didn't have it quite right. I have maps with it in > its correct spot, just have them boxed away. > > I need to get out that early 1900s USGS map showing the dam and pond north > of Capitol. > > K. > I wish that I knew the exact extent of my grandfather's property without having to hit the county maps and deeds and all. Some of my relatives who lived there--my uncles and aunts, all deceased now--said it was either 20 or 30 acres when they were born and lived there starting around 1910 or so up to their moving to the Lower Rio Grande--about a dozen miles or so north of Brownsville, next to Harlingen--in 1928. There is an exact double of our (demoed) farmhouse on the east side of 42nd Street, just a bit south of Hope. One of our relatives lived there, but I never bothered to ask when the generation who had all the easy answers were still alive. Another one of our relative's family also moved to Harlingen back then. Another Schnabl lived just east of the former Reed's Bakery on Capitol, in a then modern Lannon-stone house between 41st and 42nd, just west of the alley cut. The old maps show that only east half of the 4100 blocks north of Capitol were platted. So, I assume that my grandfather's property ended at the alley cut between 41st and 42nd. But then, his property might then have extended as far north as Congress and possibly intercepting the creek near there. Anyway, some day I will take the time... Gary -- Gary Schnabl Southwest Detroit, two miles NORTH! of Canada--Windsor, that is... Technical Editor forum LinkedIn profile Elance profile From gSchnabl at SWDetroit.com Sun Jul 11 21:35:21 2010 From: gSchnabl at SWDetroit.com (Gary Schnabl) Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2010 21:35:21 -0400 Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: Milwaukee-area Lustrons (1948 to 1950) In-Reply-To: <4c3a5c9d.5c4ee50a.10dc.6685@mx.google.com> References: <26663-4C358133-2682@storefull-3173.bay.webtv.net> <623F0571C4CC4CC78A5B48D3F94667E3@KTJosephson> <4C392982.5070600@SWDetroit.com> <6928774E5C10499282721C1A88343864@KTJosephson> <4c3a5c9d.5c4ee50a.10dc.6685@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <4C3A7159.1030201@SWDetroit.com> On 7/11/2010 7:43 PM, William Sell wrote: > Harry Seaman and family moved to Mequon quite a few years ago. Still > active as a musician. > I helped them move out of that house. > Bill > I know that his Irish music band plays at the Irish fests. However, the last time I saw him and his mother was at a wedding reception at the South Shore Country Club in Chicago way back in 1966 or 1967. Did you notice any Lustron within eyesight of his old house? If present. it should have been readily visible from the front yard, or better yet from its south side by the sidewalk on Roosevelt. There was little around to block any view to the east. Gary -- Gary Schnabl Southwest Detroit, two miles NORTH! of Canada--Windsor, that is... From sunrise at bikethehoan.com Sun Jul 11 22:45:45 2010 From: sunrise at bikethehoan.com (William Sell) Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2010 21:45:45 -0500 Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: Milwaukee-area Lustrons (1948 to 1950) In-Reply-To: <4C3A7159.1030201@SWDetroit.com> References: <26663-4C358133-2682@storefull-3173.bay.webtv.net> <623F0571C4CC4CC78A5B48D3F94667E3@KTJosephson> <4C392982.5070600@SWDetroit.com> <6928774E5C10499282721C1A88343864@KTJosephson> <4c3a5c9d.5c4ee50a.10dc.6685@mx.google.com> <4C3A7159.1030201@SWDetroit.com> Message-ID: <4c3a81d0.df0ae50a.650c.6d8d@mx.google.com> Gary Had to look up Lustron - so I know what you're asking about, but I really don't remember that neighborhood anywhere near that well. This might have been the 80s. Sorry Bill At 08:35 PM 7/11/2010, you wrote: >On 7/11/2010 7:43 PM, William Sell wrote: > > Harry Seaman and family moved to Mequon quite a few years ago. Still > > active as a musician. > > I helped them move out of that house. > > Bill > > >I know that his Irish music band plays at the Irish fests. However, the >last time I saw him and his mother was at a wedding reception at the >South Shore Country Club in Chicago way back in 1966 or 1967. > >Did you notice any Lustron within eyesight of his old house? If present. >it should have been readily visible from the front yard, or better yet >from its south side by the sidewalk on Roosevelt. There was little >around to block any view to the east. > >Gary > > >-- > >Gary Schnabl >Southwest Detroit, two miles NORTH! of Canada--Windsor, that is... }><((( " > }><((( " > }><((( " > }><((( " > }><((( " > }><((( " > }><((( " > } ><((( " > < " )))><{~~~~ }><((( " > }><((( " > }><((( " > }><((( " > }><((( " > }><((( " > }><((( " > }><((( " > }><((( " > }><((( " > From lallan45 at gmail.com Tue Jul 13 21:25:01 2010 From: lallan45 at gmail.com (Larry Allan) Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2010 20:25:01 -0500 Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: A Little More About the Creeks In-Reply-To: <4C3A652E.3070901@SWDetroit.com> References: <90A68AE95FCD4B57B619954AC43D8153@KTJosephson> <4C3A4A91.70308@SWDetroit.com> <418EFE963A1A426D868DA2088ABD5F84@KTJosephson> <4C3A652E.3070901@SWDetroit.com> Message-ID: Here is an article from the Milwaukee Journal dated Jan. 19,1899 regarding the planning of the North Milwaukee Lines crossing of Lincoln Creek, then known as Mud Creek. See Attached. On Sun, Jul 11, 2010 at 7:43 PM, Gary Schnabl wrote: > On 7/11/2010 7:13 PM, Ken and Tracie wrote: > > Thanks, Gary. I noted I didn't have it quite right. I have maps with it > in > > its correct spot, just have them boxed away. > > > > I need to get out that early 1900s USGS map showing the dam and pond > north > > of Capitol. > > > > K. > > > I wish that I knew the exact extent of my grandfather's property without > having to hit the county maps and deeds and all. Some of my relatives > who lived there--my uncles and aunts, all deceased now--said it was > either 20 or 30 acres when they were born and lived there starting > around 1910 or so up to their moving to the Lower Rio Grande--about a > dozen miles or so north of Brownsville, next to Harlingen--in 1928. > > There is an exact double of our (demoed) farmhouse on the east side of > 42nd Street, just a bit south of Hope. One of our relatives lived there, > but I never bothered to ask when the generation who had all the easy > answers were still alive. Another one of our relative's family also > moved to Harlingen back then. > > Another Schnabl lived just east of the former Reed's Bakery on Capitol, > in a then modern Lannon-stone house between 41st and 42nd, just west of > the alley cut. The old maps show that only east half of the 4100 blocks > north of Capitol were platted. So, I assume that my grandfather's > property ended at the alley cut between 41st and 42nd. But then, his > property might then have extended as far north as Congress and possibly > intercepting the creek near there. > > Anyway, some day I will take the time... > > > Gary > > -- > > Gary Schnabl > Southwest Detroit, two miles NORTH! of Canada--Windsor, that is... > > Technical Editor forum > > LinkedIn profile > > Elance profile > < > http://www.elance.com/php/profile/main/eolproviderprofile.php?userid=1892120&catid=100&edit=true&from=myelance > > > > > > > -- Attached file removed by Ecartis and put at URL below -- -- Type: image/jpeg -- Size: 58k (59498 bytes) -- URL : http://lists.dementia.org/files/milwaukee-electric/Northmilwline.JPG From gSchnabl at SWDetroit.com Wed Jul 14 12:49:52 2010 From: gSchnabl at SWDetroit.com (Gary Schnabl) Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2010 12:49:52 -0400 Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: A Little More About the Creeks In-Reply-To: References: <90A68AE95FCD4B57B619954AC43D8153@KTJosephson> <4C3A4A91.70308@SWDetroit.com> <418EFE963A1A426D868DA2088ABD5F84@KTJosephson> <4C3A652E.3070901@SWDetroit.com> Message-ID: <4C3DEAB0.5050107@SWDetroit.com> The Caspar 1930 map is not totally accurate, but it does yield some possible clues why things were done back prior to the Great Depression. (1) Why a bridge crossing the rerouted Lincoln Creek at 37th Street? The map shows that Sherman Boulevard only extended to Hope. [My grandfather's (30?) acres there were sold in 1928.] Sercombe (39th) Street was an early NS arterial, probably due to the original creek messing up 35th Street around Capitol Drive (Lake Road). BTW, the map clearly shows that Sercombe bent to the NE (prior to 1900) in order to cross the creek on the bent part, north of Hope (Oak). Sercombe connected to Marion at about 37th Street. So, the 37th Street bridge over the rerouted creek was probably sort of an arterial before 35th Street was (re)built later. (2) Many maps show that Hopkins was a through street north of Capitol. Was it ever? It seems to me that some of the maps were actual roads, whereas others might have been planned, "governmental" routes, but were never, in fact, ever built afterward. Hopkins there appears to be one of the planned governmental streets. (3) Lake (Capitol Drive) stopped to the west somewhere around 27th Street until the creek was rerouted. Again, some of the street and platted blocks west of 27th Street may have never been built according to their governmental maps. AFAIK, Hopkins ended at Lake/Capitol, and Capitol Drive afterward went under the railroad tracks in the 30th Street Industrial Corridor by way of two large underpasses. Hopkins did not go through, over, or under the yards, IMO. (4) I remember driving back around 1960 when Hampton still intersected the railroad tracks at grade (atop a "hill"). Having to stop for train(s) there was a real bitch if one was stuck on Hampton (up the "hill", east of the tracks there). A driver would either have to ride the clutch for several minutes while stuck up the hill or stop the engine until the train(s) passed at grade. Usually some guy was right on your bumper while stopped, necessitating some pretty rapid foot-pedal movements more typical of race-car drivers after the trains finally passed. Driving was much easier on Hampton after that bottleneck at the tracks was eliminated. Gary On 7/13/2010 9:25 PM, Larry Allan wrote: > Here is an article from the Milwaukee Journal dated Jan. 19,1899 regarding > the planning of the North Milwaukee Lines crossing of Lincoln Creek, then > known as Mud Creek. See Attached. > On Sun, Jul 11, 2010 at 7:43 PM, Gary Schnablwrote: > > >> On 7/11/2010 7:13 PM, Ken and Tracie wrote: >> >>> Thanks, Gary. I noted I didn't have it quite right. I have maps with it >>> >> in >> >>> its correct spot, just have them boxed away. >>> >>> I need to get out that early 1900s USGS map showing the dam and pond >>> >> north >> >>> of Capitol. >>> >>> K. >>> >>> >> -- Gary Schnabl Southwest Detroit, two miles NORTH! of Canada--Windsor, that is... From gSchnabl at SWDetroit.com Wed Jul 14 13:21:04 2010 From: gSchnabl at SWDetroit.com (Gary Schnabl) Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2010 13:21:04 -0400 Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: A Little More About the Creeks In-Reply-To: References: <90A68AE95FCD4B57B619954AC43D8153@KTJosephson> <4C3A4A91.70308@SWDetroit.com> <418EFE963A1A426D868DA2088ABD5F84@KTJosephson> <4C3A652E.3070901@SWDetroit.com> Message-ID: <4C3DF200.7090901@SWDetroit.com> On 7/13/2010 9:25 PM, Larry Allan wrote: > Here is an article from the Milwaukee Journal dated Jan. 19,1899 regarding > the planning of the North Milwaukee Lines crossing of Lincoln Creek, then > known as Mud Creek. See Attached. > -- Attached file removed by Ecartis and put at URL below -- -- Type: image/jpeg -- Size: 58k (59498 bytes) -- URL :http://lists.dementia.org/files/milwaukee-electric/Northmilwline.JPG RE the article: Did Daniel Wells originally own the property by 52 1/2 Street used for the PROW for the Wells line between Wells and Blue Mound Road? What was the extent of his real estate? Was his Wells surname a coincidence? Gary -- Gary Schnabl Southwest Detroit, two miles NORTH! of Canada--Windsor, that is... From lallan45 at gmail.com Thu Jul 15 22:22:43 2010 From: lallan45 at gmail.com (Larry Allan) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2010 21:22:43 -0500 Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: A Little More About the Creeks In-Reply-To: <4C3DF200.7090901@SWDetroit.com> References: <90A68AE95FCD4B57B619954AC43D8153@KTJosephson> <4C3A4A91.70308@SWDetroit.com> <418EFE963A1A426D868DA2088ABD5F84@KTJosephson> <4C3A652E.3070901@SWDetroit.com> <4C3DF200.7090901@SWDetroit.com> Message-ID: Daniel Wells was a large land owner on the West side. He was one of those guys that had ownership in many ventures such as Banks, railroads etc. Put his name in google and read more. Wells St. was named after him. On Wed, Jul 14, 2010 at 12:21 PM, Gary Schnabl wrote: > On 7/13/2010 9:25 PM, Larry Allan wrote: > > Here is an article from the Milwaukee Journal dated Jan. 19,1899 > regarding > > the planning of the North Milwaukee Lines crossing of Lincoln Creek, then > > known as Mud Creek. See Attached. > > > -- Attached file removed by Ecartis and put at URL below -- > -- Type: image/jpeg > -- Size: 58k (59498 bytes) > -- URL : > http://lists.dementia.org/files/milwaukee-electric/Northmilwline.JPG > > RE the article: Did Daniel Wells originally own the property by 52 1/2 > Street used for the PROW for the Wells line between Wells and Blue Mound > Road? What was the extent of his real estate? Was his Wells surname a > coincidence? > > Gary > -- > > Gary Schnabl > Southwest Detroit, two miles NORTH! of Canada--Windsor, that is... > > > > > From lallan45 at gmail.com Thu Jul 15 22:44:21 2010 From: lallan45 at gmail.com (Larry Allan) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2010 21:44:21 -0500 Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Rails removed in Racine Message-ID: Attached are two photos of removed rails on State St. near Marquette Av.in Racine. Photos were taken this week. -- Attached file removed by Ecartis and put at URL below -- -- Type: image/jpeg -- Size: 91k (93506 bytes) -- URL : http://lists.dementia.org/files/milwaukee-electric/StateRacineTrack.jpg -- Attached file removed by Ecartis and put at URL below -- -- Type: image/jpeg -- Size: 86k (88098 bytes) -- URL : http://lists.dementia.org/files/milwaukee-electric/StateRacineTrack2.jpg From DLeistikow at webtv.net Fri Jul 16 02:35:45 2010 From: DLeistikow at webtv.net (Don L. Leistikow) Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2010 01:35:45 -0500 Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: Rails removed in Racine In-Reply-To: Larry Allan 's message of Thu, 15 Jul 2010 21:44:21 -0500 Message-ID: <13491-4C3FFDC1-2443@storefull-3172.bay.webtv.net> Group; I wonder when such activity takes place, if the switch components could be salvaged? Seems like salvaging would cost far less than ordering new switch materials. FWIW.... Don L. From lallan45 at gmail.com Fri Jul 16 17:31:56 2010 From: lallan45 at gmail.com (Larry Allan) Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2010 16:31:56 -0500 Subject: [milwaukee-electric] More Rail being removed S. 2nd St. Milw. Message-ID: Photos taken 7-16-10. Location S.. 2nd St. in Milwaukee. -- Attached file removed by Ecartis and put at URL below -- -- Type: image/jpeg -- Size: 61k (62680 bytes) -- URL : http://lists.dementia.org/files/milwaukee-electric/Rail-s2st1.jpg -- Attached file removed by Ecartis and put at URL below -- -- Type: image/jpeg -- Size: 85k (87221 bytes) -- URL : http://lists.dementia.org/files/milwaukee-electric/Rail-s2st2.jpg -- Attached file removed by Ecartis and put at URL below -- -- Type: image/jpeg -- Size: 64k (66494 bytes) -- URL : http://lists.dementia.org/files/milwaukee-electric/Rail-s2st3.jpg -- Attached file removed by Ecartis and put at URL below -- -- Type: image/jpeg -- Size: 75k (77576 bytes) -- URL : http://lists.dementia.org/files/milwaukee-electric/Rail-s2st4.jpg -- Attached file removed by Ecartis and put at URL below -- -- Type: image/jpeg -- Size: 72k (74471 bytes) -- URL : http://lists.dementia.org/files/milwaukee-electric/Rail-s2st5.jpg -- Attached file removed by Ecartis and put at URL below -- -- Type: image/jpeg -- Size: 70k (72250 bytes) -- URL : http://lists.dementia.org/files/milwaukee-electric/Rail-s2st6.jpg -- Attached file removed by Ecartis and put at URL below -- -- Type: image/jpeg -- Size: 101k (103618 bytes) -- URL : http://lists.dementia.org/files/milwaukee-electric/Rail-s2st7.jpg From ktjosephson at embarqmail.com Sat Jul 17 11:28:10 2010 From: ktjosephson at embarqmail.com (Ken and Tracie) Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2010 08:28:10 -0700 Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: A Little More About the Creeks References: <90A68AE95FCD4B57B619954AC43D8153@KTJosephson> <4C3A4A91.70308@SWDetroit.com> <418EFE963A1A426D868DA2088ABD5F84@KTJosephson> <4C3A652E.3070901@SWDetroit.com> <4C3DF200.7090901@SWDetroit.com> Message-ID: <25DBC552E16342AA88C198F534A7ACB0@KTJosephson> The creek from the McGovern Park lagoons exits its tunnel behind this building. The building is on the east side of the 4900 block of West Hampton Avenue. I believe this location is now a pharmacy, same building. This photo dates from 1961. Perhaps Larry Allan can snag a couple shots of the building and the creek if he gets a chance. K. -- Attached file removed by Ecartis and put at URL below -- -- Type: image/jpeg -- Size: 115k (118634 bytes) -- URL : http://lists.dementia.org/files/milwaukee-electric/redowl006.jpg From lallan45 at gmail.com Sat Jul 17 14:34:06 2010 From: lallan45 at gmail.com (Larry Allan) Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2010 13:34:06 -0500 Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: A Little More About the Creeks In-Reply-To: <25DBC552E16342AA88C198F534A7ACB0@KTJosephson> References: <90A68AE95FCD4B57B619954AC43D8153@KTJosephson> <4C3A4A91.70308@SWDetroit.com> <418EFE963A1A426D868DA2088ABD5F84@KTJosephson> <4C3A652E.3070901@SWDetroit.com> <4C3DF200.7090901@SWDetroit.com> <25DBC552E16342AA88C198F534A7ACB0@KTJosephson> Message-ID: Give me a week or two. I will get the photos.Larry On Sat, Jul 17, 2010 at 10:28 AM, Ken and Tracie wrote: > The creek from the McGovern Park lagoons exits its tunnel behind this > building. The building is on the east side of the 4900 block of West > Hampton > Avenue. I believe this location is now a pharmacy, same building. This > photo > dates from 1961. > Perhaps Larry Allan can snag a couple shots of the building and the creek > if > he gets a chance. > > K. > > > > -- Attached file removed by Ecartis and put at URL below -- > -- Type: image/jpeg > -- Size: 115k (118634 bytes) > -- URL : http://lists.dementia.org/files/milwaukee-electric/redowl006.jpg > > > > From gSchnabl at SWDetroit.com Sat Jul 17 20:59:23 2010 From: gSchnabl at SWDetroit.com (Gary Schnabl) Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2010 20:59:23 -0400 Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: A Little More About the Creeks In-Reply-To: References: <90A68AE95FCD4B57B619954AC43D8153@KTJosephson> <4C3A4A91.70308@SWDetroit.com> <418EFE963A1A426D868DA2088ABD5F84@KTJosephson> <4C3A652E.3070901@SWDetroit.com> <4C3DF200.7090901@SWDetroit.com> <25DBC552E16342AA88C198F534A7ACB0@KTJosephson> Message-ID: <4C4251EB.8090006@SWDetroit.com> What was the straight trench at 46 1/2 Street used for? Just rainfall? Being so straight (although its extremity today is curved before emptying into Lincoln Creek), it had to have been dug at around the same time that the creek was first rerouted. At around 1951 or so, the creek was again dug out with heavy equipment and deepened a bit, destroying most water "wildlife" between 47th and 37th Streets for a couple years. Previously, there were water snakes (species?) and polliwogs/frogs, but no fish AFAIK. All the native cattails and such were destroyed, too. The creek was a bit gloomy right then--aseptic. At some time, the hill and woods north of 47th Street was flattened, but I failed to notice when that occurred. But the crayfish at the 47th Street dam were still very plentiful, and it was still very easy to catch dozens at an outing. I have no idea how deep it was there, but I reckon maybe three to five feet, it that. That water there was so dirty that it always was impossible to see more than a few inches down. Gary On 7/17/2010 2:34 PM, Larry Allan wrote: > Give me a week or two. I will get the photos.Larry > On Sat, Jul 17, 2010 at 10:28 AM, Ken and Tracie >> wrote: >> > >> The creek from the McGovern Park lagoons exits its tunnel behind this >> building. The building is on the east side of the 4900 block of West >> Hampton >> Avenue. I believe this location is now a pharmacy, same building. This >> photo >> dates from 1961. >> Perhaps Larry Allan can snag a couple shots of the building and the creek >> if >> he gets a chance. >> >> K. >> >> >> >> -- Attached file removed by Ecartis and put at URL below -- >> -- Type: image/jpeg >> -- Size: 115k (118634 bytes) >> -- URL : http://lists.dementia.org/files/milwaukee-electric/redowl006.jpg >> >> >> >> >> > > > -- Gary Schnabl Southwest Detroit, two miles NORTH! of Canada--Windsor, that is... Technical Editor forum LinkedIn profile Elance profile From ktjosephson at embarqmail.com Mon Jul 19 19:56:33 2010 From: ktjosephson at embarqmail.com (Ken and Tracie) Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2010 16:56:33 -0700 Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: A Little More About the Creeks References: <90A68AE95FCD4B57B619954AC43D8153@KTJosephson> <4C3A4A91.70308@SWDetroit.com> <418EFE963A1A426D868DA2088ABD5F84@KTJosephson> <4C3A652E.3070901@SWDetroit.com> <4C3DF200.7090901@SWDetroit.com> <25DBC552E16342AA88C198F534A7ACB0@KTJosephson> <4C4251EB.8090006@SWDetroit.com> Message-ID: So the trench between 46th and 47th? Shows you my memory is failing.........I thought it was between 48th and 49th Streets. My mistake. That used to be a meandering stream between the McGovern Park lagoons and Lincoln Creek. They straightened it and made the trench, probably at the same time Lincoln Creek was straightened. The other creek (which runs through Dineen Park) wasn't placed into a tunnel between Melvina and Lincoln Creek until 1955, according to a friend whose grandfather, and two subsequent generations, lived on 61st and Capitol. Capitol Drive was extended past 35th Street before Lincoln Creek was moved to the center of Congress. Larry Allan sent me a link concerning ice jams and people's concerns about them blocking the channel and forcing water over one of the Capitol Drive crossings near A.O. Smith. It was after Lake was renamed Capitol, since they used the name "Capitol" in the article. Another article discussed whether or not Lincoln Creek was a "navigable waterway" which people may have used to float logs, etc. The concern was that some people along the creek's original channel would not want to lose access to the creek by it being relocated. Back in the days of streetcars, when using dynamite to blow up ice jams in urban waterways was acceptable! There was even talk of putting some of the Kinnickinnic River into box channel tunnels. I once read an article that Mr. Whitnall didn't want any additional industrial development in the Menomonee River Valley. He wanted it to be a huge park for the region. I suppose that would have meant no industrial customers along the Rapid Transit line or the Milwaukee Road between Downtown and 42nd Street. K. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gary Schnabl" To: Sent: Saturday, July 17, 2010 5:59 PM Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: A Little More About the Creeks > What was the straight trench at 46 1/2 Street used for? Just rainfall? > Being so straight (although its extremity today is curved before > emptying into Lincoln Creek), it had to have been dug at around the same > time that the creek was first rerouted. > At around 1951 or so, the creek was again dug out with heavy equipment > and deepened a bit, destroying most water "wildlife" between 47th and > 37th Streets for a couple years. Previously, there were water snakes > (species?) and polliwogs/frogs, but no fish AFAIK. All the native > cattails and such were destroyed, too. The creek was a bit gloomy right > then--aseptic. At some time, the hill and woods north of 47th Street was > flattened, but I failed to notice when that occurred. > > But the crayfish at the 47th Street dam were still very plentiful, and > it was still very easy to catch dozens at an outing. I have no idea how > deep it was there, but I reckon maybe three to five feet, it that. That > water there was so dirty that it always was impossible to see more than > a few inches down. > > > Gary > > On 7/17/2010 2:34 PM, Larry Allan wrote: >> Give me a week or two. I will get the photos.Larry >> On Sat, Jul 17, 2010 at 10:28 AM, Ken and >> Tracie> >>> wrote: >>> >> >>> The creek from the McGovern Park lagoons exits its tunnel behind this >>> building. The building is on the east side of the 4900 block of West >>> Hampton >>> Avenue. I believe this location is now a pharmacy, same building. This >>> photo >>> dates from 1961. >>> Perhaps Larry Allan can snag a couple shots of the building and the >>> creek >>> if >>> he gets a chance. >>> >>> K. >>> >>> >>> >>> -- Attached file removed by Ecartis and put at URL below -- >>> -- Type: image/jpeg >>> -- Size: 115k (118634 bytes) >>> -- URL : >>> http://lists.dementia.org/files/milwaukee-electric/redowl006.jpg >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> > > > -- > > Gary Schnabl > Southwest Detroit, two miles NORTH! of Canada--Windsor, that is... > > Technical Editor forum > > LinkedIn profile > > Elance profile > > > > > From gSchnabl at SWDetroit.com Mon Jul 19 21:46:39 2010 From: gSchnabl at SWDetroit.com (Gary Schnabl) Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2010 21:46:39 -0400 Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: A Little More About the Creeks In-Reply-To: References: <90A68AE95FCD4B57B619954AC43D8153@KTJosephson> <4C3A4A91.70308@SWDetroit.com> <418EFE963A1A426D868DA2088ABD5F84@KTJosephson> <4C3A652E.3070901@SWDetroit.com> <4C3DF200.7090901@SWDetroit.com> <25DBC552E16342AA88C198F534A7ACB0@KTJosephson> <4C4251EB.8090006@SWDetroit.com> Message-ID: <4C44FFFF.3030306@SWDetroit.com> Lincoln Creek as I knew it was not deep enough to be navigable, west of 35th Street. East of 35th, it appeared to be a sewer creek devoid of life, at least at 35th. I tried fishing and crabbing there, never with any luck whatsoever. It seemed deep as there was no visible current as I remember. The creek between 37th and 47th Streets was rarely deeper than a foot (six inches deep, perhaps, at spots), except after a rain. During that stretch, the creek was mostly clear, narrow, and shallow. I got crayfish below the dam mostly by overturning rocks in the creek bed while wading or from shore, mostly on the south bank. But at the north bank above the dam, I would have a few lines of strong cord with meat attached. It was real easy to slowly bring them in and pick off the crayfish hanging onto them. Very little water spilled over the small concrete 47th Street dam. The trench at 46 1/2 Street is still there according to the maps. It probably was the rerouted 49th and Hampton creek you knew. Very little if any noticeable current in that "stream." Its former path meandered from around 49th to as far east as 44th a couple blocks north of Congress. The land north and west of 46 1/2 Street was hilly and wooded, so no possibility of another creek connecting Lincoln until at least 49th. That hill along the north bank is long gone. On 7/19/2010 7:56 PM, Ken and Tracie wrote: > So the trench between 46th and 47th? Shows you my memory is > failing.........I thought it was between 48th and 49th Streets. My mistake. > > That used to be a meandering stream between the McGovern Park lagoons and > Lincoln Creek. They straightened it and made the trench, probably at the > same time Lincoln Creek was straightened. The other creek (which runs > through Dineen Park) wasn't placed into a tunnel between Melvina and Lincoln > Creek until 1955, according to a friend whose grandfather, and two > subsequent generations, lived on 61st and Capitol. > That time frame was right, as 1955 was when Capitol Court went in and when I started delivering papers from 51st through 53rd Streets south of Capitol to north of Roosevelt. Another artifact there back until the early 1950s was a milk depot at the NW corner of Fond du Lac and Capitol Drive--a precursor of today's convenience stores, where eggs, bread, milk, and produce in season was sold. When Fond du Lac was widened from its narrow ROW, it went. > Capitol Drive was extended past 35th Street before Lincoln Creek was moved > to the center of Congress. Larry Allan sent me a link concerning ice jams > and people's concerns about them blocking the channel and forcing water over > one of the Capitol Drive crossings near A.O. Smith. It was after Lake was > renamed Capitol, since they used the name "Capitol" in the article. > > Another article discussed whether or not Lincoln Creek was a "navigable > waterway" which people may have used to float logs, etc. The concern was > that some people along the creek's original channel would not want to lose > access to the creek by it being relocated. > Maybe people with creek access then dug the creek deeper at their properties in order to have deep access. I would wonder where its water would come from--perhaps, some former springs stopped issuing water afterward. The township that formed SW Detroit here by Dearborn and the Ford Rouge Plant was originally called Springwells until the late 1920s, when Dearborn was incorporated as a city from its original name of Springwells. The several springs and wells there were sources for drinking water in early Detroit, starting just west of downtown.. > Back in the days of streetcars, when using dynamite to blow up ice jams in > urban waterways was acceptable! > > There was even talk of putting some of the Kinnickinnic River into box > channel tunnels. > > I once read an article that Mr. Whitnall didn't want any additional > industrial development in the Menomonee River Valley. He wanted it to be a > huge park for the region. I suppose that would have meant no industrial > customers along the Rapid Transit line or the Milwaukee Road between > Downtown and 42nd Street. > > K. > Gary -- Gary Schnabl Southwest Detroit, two miles NORTH! of Canada--Windsor, that is...