From x779 at webtv.net  Sat May  8 11:48:43 2010
From: x779 at webtv.net (Louis Rugani)
Date: Sat, 08 May 2010 15:48:43 GMT
Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Electric railways, streetcars, interurbans, trams, light rail lines and trolley
 buses worldwide. City officials announce Downtown Milwaukee streetcar route.
Message-ID: <SNT113-DS232F09E61E23C1E96C6FA798F70@phx.gbl>

Haven't heard a peep on this list yet about this long-awaited Milwaukee traction renaissance:
=Lou=

~~~~~~~~~~ **-=\/=-** ~~~~~~~~~~

The opposite of bravery is not cowardice, but conformity.       Robert Anthony


-----Original Message-----
From: Don L. Leistikow
Sent: Wednesday, May 5, 2010 1:31 AM
To: RKRtransit at aol.com, rocky.marcoux at mkedcd.org, mmaierle at hotmail.com, rpmurphy at charter.net, don0731 at gte.net, X779 at webtv.net, szymkowski at engr.wisc.edu, etennyson at cox.net, mr600v at yahoo.com
Cc: emory1522 at wi.rr.com
Subject: Fwd: Electric railways, streetcars, interurbans, trams, light rail	lines and trolley buses worldwide. City officials announce Downtown	Milwaukee streetcar route.

Group:   Latest information on... A Streetcar for Milwaukee.......





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From ktjosephson at embarqmail.com  Sat May  8 12:04:35 2010
From: ktjosephson at embarqmail.com (Ken and Tracie)
Date: Sat, 8 May 2010 09:04:35 -0700
Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: Electric railways, streetcars, interurbans, trams, light rail lines and trolley buses worldwide. City officials announce Downtown Milwaukee streetcar route.
References: <SNT113-DS232F09E61E23C1E96C6FA798F70@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <E98B271A289F4643A06D000ACC8FB025@KTJosephson>

A few months ago, I thought I raised the question as to whether or not the 
average MCTS bus rider would rather stay on rubber tires for a one seat ride 
Downtown rather than being forced onto a circular streetcar line for the 
last two miles of his/her trip.

K.
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Louis Rugani" <x779 at webtv.net>
To: <milwaukee-electric at lists.dementia.org>
Sent: Saturday, May 08, 2010 8:48 AM
Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Electric railways, streetcars, interurbans, 
trams, light rail lines and trolley buses worldwide. City officials announce 
Downtown Milwaukee streetcar route.


> Haven't heard a peep on this list yet about this long-awaited Milwaukee 
> traction renaissance:
> =Lou=
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~ **-=\/=-** ~~~~~~~~~~
>
> The opposite of bravery is not cowardice, but conformity.       Robert 
> Anthony 



From DLeistikow at webtv.net  Sat May  8 12:51:10 2010
From: DLeistikow at webtv.net (Don L. Leistikow)
Date: Sat, 8 May 2010 11:51:10 -0500
Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: Electric railways, streetcars,
	interurbans, trams, light rail lines and trolley buses worldwide.
	City officials announce Downtown Milwaukee streetcar route.
In-Reply-To: "Ken and Tracie" <ktjosephson@embarqmail.com>'s message of Sat, 8 May 2010 09:04:35 -0700
Message-ID: <20988-4BE5967E-5675@storefull-3171.bay.webtv.net>

Ken and list:   No contest.... No one is going to do that.  This will be
a circulator, obviously intended for the convenience of UWM students and
Faculty.  The attraction will be the Fare Factor.              

Senior Citizens retruning to the CBD will find it useful, particularly
those who no longer can Drive an automobile.                

There is a very definite plus side, that being the introduction of
non-air polluting streetcars.  With UWM at one end and  Amtrak at the
other end yes, there will be riders.  No more problems with finding a
Parking lot, expensive as they are, will be a significant attraction.                              

Rebuilding the Central Business District will be the answer to the still
declining population in the City of Milwaukee.  The real porblem is;
What comes first, the Chicken, or the Egg?                                 

Some 24+ Cities have swung over to electric rail transit, in one form or
another. The response has been phenominal.  Once established,  Ridership
in thsoe Cities jumped so quickly and strong, that extensions are
quickly planned and built.  some Cities are now in their thrid expansion
of rail transit.                            

Wisconsin lags drastically as the Highway Lobby and the Road Builders
Associations, continue to push for Freeway extensions and widening
programs.  We don't need more Freeways and we don't need to spend
endless dollars for more cement and asphalt.  We need, balanced
transportation.  Toll Gates on the Freeways of Wisconsin, will
automatically reduce rubbertired vehicles and give us a return on
investment.           

The magical formerly introduced when funding for Freeways was
considered... was then 90% Federal monies.  All other transportation was
funded at only 50%.  Of late, the 90% from the Feds, is long gone.  What
the highways and freeways get from the Feds today, I am not aware.   

A strong CBD is what we need in the Metro Area. Wihtout that, the Metro
Area is doomed to bedroom communities with high taxes tp pay for public
services... electricity, gas, water, garbage, snowplowing... to name a
few.....              

FWIW... Don L.   



From sunrise at bikethehoan.com  Sat May  8 20:21:44 2010
From: sunrise at bikethehoan.com (William Sell)
Date: Sat, 08 May 2010 19:21:44 -0500
Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: Electric railways, streetcars,
  interurbans, trams, light rail lines and trolley buses worldwide. City
  officials announce Downtown Milwaukee streetcar route.
In-Reply-To: <E98B271A289F4643A06D000ACC8FB025@KTJosephson>
References: <SNT113-DS232F09E61E23C1E96C6FA798F70@phx.gbl>
 <E98B271A289F4643A06D000ACC8FB025@KTJosephson>
Message-ID: <4be60010.866adc0a.538c.ffff94d9@mx.google.com>

The circulator idea is dead.


At 11:04 AM 5/8/2010, you wrote:
>A few months ago, I thought I raised the question as to whether or not the
>average MCTS bus rider would rather stay on rubber tires for a one seat ride
>Downtown rather than being forced onto a circular streetcar line for the
>last two miles of his/her trip.
>
>K.
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Louis Rugani" <x779 at webtv.net>
>To: <milwaukee-electric at lists.dementia.org>
>Sent: Saturday, May 08, 2010 8:48 AM
>Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Electric railways, streetcars, interurbans,
>trams, light rail lines and trolley buses worldwide. City officials announce
>Downtown Milwaukee streetcar route.
>
>
> > Haven't heard a peep on this list yet about this long-awaited Milwaukee
> > traction renaissance:
> > =Lou=
> >
> > ~~~~~~~~~~ **-=\/=-** ~~~~~~~~~~
> >
> > The opposite of bravery is not cowardice, but conformity.      Robert
> > Anthony

         }><((( " >          }><((( " >        }><((( " >      }><((( 
" >    }><((( " >  }><((( " >
               }><((( " >  }><((( " >     }><((( " >      }><((( 
" >        }><((( " >          }><((( " >
   }><((( " > }><((( " >               < " 
)))><{~~~~            }><((( " >        }><((( " >          }><((( " >
                 }><((( " >      }><((( " >        }><((( 
" >    }><((( " >          }><((( " >      }><((( " >  }><((( " >

          



From gSchnabl at SWDetroit.com  Sat May  8 21:11:39 2010
From: gSchnabl at SWDetroit.com (Gary Schnabl)
Date: Sat, 08 May 2010 21:11:39 -0400
Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: Electric railways, streetcars,	interurbans,
 trams, light rail lines and trolley buses worldwide.	City officials announce
 Downtown Milwaukee streetcar route.
In-Reply-To: <20988-4BE5967E-5675@storefull-3171.bay.webtv.net>
References: <20988-4BE5967E-5675@storefull-3171.bay.webtv.net>
Message-ID: <4BE60BCB.6000007@SWDetroit.com>

On 5/8/2010 12:51 PM, Don L. Leistikow wrote:
> Ken and list:   No contest.... No one is going to do that.  This will be
> a circulator, obviously intended for the convenience of UWM students and
> Faculty.  The attraction will be the Fare Factor.
Hi Ken, Don, et al.

Just why should UW-M students get a "free ride" in the form of cheaper 
streetcar rides when there is ample bus service to UWM? When I lived at 
Park and Murray or next to the Oakland carbarn, I simply walked to UWM 
most of the time, when I attended it. And I had a 1959 Harley Duo-Glide 
hog, a 1957 Jaguar XK150, and a 1961 Impala convertible at the time. 
Plus, I had one of more jobs then as a student and never took out a 
student loan. Sorry, but college kids today are just that--kids, 
dependent upon others for the very existence...
> Senior Citizens retruning to the CBD will find it useful, particularly
> those who no longer can Drive an automobile.
>
> There is a very definite plus side, that being the introduction of
> non-air polluting streetcars.  With UWM at one end and  Amtrak at the
> other end yes, there will be riders.  No more problems with finding a
> Parking lot, expensive as they are, will be a significant attraction.

Alhough I do not live in Milwaukee any longer, I am now elderly. Why 
would we oldsters bother to go downtown? I live four miles from the 
heart of downtown Detroit, yet I almost never go down there. A streetcar 
connecting me to the CBD would not entice me to ride it.
>
> Rebuilding the Central Business District will be the answer to the still
> declining population in the City of Milwaukee.  The real porblem is;
> What comes first, the Chicken, or the Egg

Detroit lost over 60% of its 1958 population number. Lack of jobs is the 
critical factor--not transit. Transit is a second (or third)-order 
factor, compared to jobs in the private sector. I expect Detroit's 
population to get down to 500,000 (from its current 750,000?), but 
before that, it will go Chapter 9 bankrupt.

> Some 24+ Cities have swung over to electric rail transit, in one form or
> another. The response has been phenominal.  Once established,  Ridership
> in thsoe Cities jumped so quickly and strong, that extensions are
> quickly planned and built.  some Cities are now in their thrid expansion
> of rail transit.
>
> Wisconsin lags drastically as the Highway Lobby and the Road Builders
> Associations, continue to push for Freeway extensions and widening
> programs.  We don't need more Freeways and we don't need to spend
> endless dollars for more cement and asphalt.  We need, balanced
> transportation.  Toll Gates on the Freeways of Wisconsin, will
> automatically reduce rubbertired vehicles and give us a return on
> investment.

The Detroit to Ann Arbor commuter rail project (along the Amtrak ROW 
that is less than 1000 feet from my residence) is probably dead now, 
although millions were spent "planning" it by planners who live from 
plan to plan. The cost/ridership figures from SEMCOG--the group that 
does most of the "planning" came up with $146 per passenger ride--one 
way. Just why would the taxpayers swallow that boondoggle? Almost a $275 
subsidy per passenger for a daily round trip?!

> The magical formerly introduced when funding for Freeways was
> considered... was then 90% Federal monies.  All other transportation was
> funded at only 50%.  Of late, the 90% from the Feds, is long gone.  What
> the highways and freeways get from the Feds today, I am not aware.
>
> A strong CBD is what we need in the Metro Area. Wihtout that, the Metro
> Area is doomed to bedroom communities with high taxes tp pay for public
> services... electricity, gas, water, garbage, snowplowing... to name a
> few.....

The CBDs in Detroit and Milwaukee are hardly "central," both stuck way 
by themselves far to the east and away from the center of gravity of 
their populations. Their time came and went--long ago. I would rather 
shop in my own neighborhood (and do...), so I never buy anything 
downtown. There are practically no stores in the CBD anyway, other than 
coffee and sandwich shops that come and go. The downtown workers are 
gone in a flash when they drive home to the suburbs.

Gary

-- 

Gary Schnabl
Southwest Detroit, two miles NORTH! of Canada--Windsor, that is...





From rmadisonwi at gmail.com  Sat May  8 23:28:11 2010
From: rmadisonwi at gmail.com (Robert Madison)
Date: Sat, 08 May 2010 22:28:11 -0500
Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: Electric railways, streetcars,	interurbans,
 trams, light rail lines and trolley buses worldwide.	City officials announce
 Downtown Milwaukee streetcar route.
In-Reply-To: <4BE60BCB.6000007@SWDetroit.com>
References: <20988-4BE5967E-5675@storefull-3171.bay.webtv.net> <4BE60BCB.6000007@SWDetroit.com>
Message-ID: <4BE62BCB.8090403@gmail.com>

On 08-May-10 20:11, Gary Schnabl wrote:
> On 5/8/2010 12:51 PM, Don L. Leistikow wrote:
>    
>> Ken and list:   No contest.... No one is going to do that.  This will be
>> a circulator, obviously intended for the convenience of UWM students and
>> Faculty.  The attraction will be the Fare Factor.
>>      
> Hi Ken, Don, et al.
>
> Just why should UW-M students get a "free ride" in the form of cheaper
> streetcar rides when there is ample bus service to UWM?

Bus service has been cut back every year for the last decade.  There's 
still decent service between downtown and UWM (about the only corridor 
left in the entire service area with service that rivals "good").  The 
"fare factor" will not be one for the students, as they get the U-PASS, 
which gives them unlimited riding on any bus route in the system 
currently.  I haven't read up on whether it is proposed to integrate the 
streetcar fares with the bus fares (if so, then the U-PASS would 
probably be valid on that as well).  The latest route proposal looks 
like, if it reaches UWM, it would entirely replace route #30 up there.

> When I lived at
> Park and Murray or next to the Oakland carbarn, I simply walked to UWM
> most of the time, when I attended it. And I had a 1959 Harley Duo-Glide
> hog, a 1957 Jaguar XK150, and a 1961 Impala convertible at the time.
> Plus, I had one of more jobs then as a student and never took out a
> student loan. Sorry, but college kids today are just that--kids,
> dependent upon others for the very existence...
>    

Way back when, you could easily pay for college with a part-time job.  
Today, it is damn near impossible for a college student to get through 
college without taking out student loans, unless they get scholarships, 
or have wealthy and generous families.  College kids today are paying 
for the economic mistakes of previous generations, who are sticking them 
with high tuition costs, ridiculous textbook costs (it has been about 
five years since I was in school, so I don't know what the trend is for 
converting books to electronic format), etc.

>> Senior Citizens retruning to the CBD will find it useful, particularly
>> those who no longer can Drive an automobile.
>>
>> There is a very definite plus side, that being the introduction of
>> non-air polluting streetcars.  With UWM at one end and  Amtrak at the
>> other end yes, there will be riders.  No more problems with finding a
>> Parking lot, expensive as they are, will be a significant attraction.
>>      
> Alhough I do not live in Milwaukee any longer, I am now elderly. Why
> would we oldsters bother to go downtown? I live four miles from the
> heart of downtown Detroit, yet I almost never go down there. A streetcar
> connecting me to the CBD would not entice me to ride it.
>    

Then don't.

>> Rebuilding the Central Business District will be the answer to the still
>> declining population in the City of Milwaukee.  The real porblem is;
>> What comes first, the Chicken, or the Egg
>>      
> Detroit lost over 60% of its 1958 population number. Lack of jobs is the
> critical factor--not transit. Transit is a second (or third)-order
> factor, compared to jobs in the private sector. I expect Detroit's
> population to get down to 500,000 (from its current 750,000?), but
> before that, it will go Chapter 9 bankrupt.
>    

When did this become a topic about Detroit?  This is about a Milwaukee 
streetcar plan.

>    
>> Some 24+ Cities have swung over to electric rail transit, in one form or
>> another. The response has been phenominal.  Once established,  Ridership
>> in thsoe Cities jumped so quickly and strong, that extensions are
>> quickly planned and built.  some Cities are now in their thrid expansion
>> of rail transit.
>>
>> Wisconsin lags drastically as the Highway Lobby and the Road Builders
>> Associations, continue to push for Freeway extensions and widening
>> programs.  We don't need more Freeways and we don't need to spend
>> endless dollars for more cement and asphalt.  We need, balanced
>> transportation.  Toll Gates on the Freeways of Wisconsin, will
>> automatically reduce rubbertired vehicles and give us a return on
>> investment.
>>      
> The Detroit to Ann Arbor commuter rail project (along the Amtrak ROW
> that is less than 1000 feet from my residence) is probably dead now,
> although millions were spent "planning" it by planners who live from
> plan to plan. The cost/ridership figures from SEMCOG--the group that
> does most of the "planning" came up with $146 per passenger ride--one
> way. Just why would the taxpayers swallow that boondoggle? Almost a $275
> subsidy per passenger for a daily round trip?!
>    

Again, what does this have to do with Milwaukee?

>    
>> The magical formerly introduced when funding for Freeways was
>> considered... was then 90% Federal monies.  All other transportation was
>> funded at only 50%.  Of late, the 90% from the Feds, is long gone.  What
>> the highways and freeways get from the Feds today, I am not aware.
>>
>> A strong CBD is what we need in the Metro Area. Wihtout that, the Metro
>> Area is doomed to bedroom communities with high taxes tp pay for public
>> services... electricity, gas, water, garbage, snowplowing... to name a
>> few.....
>>      
> The CBDs in Detroit and Milwaukee are hardly "central," both stuck way
> by themselves far to the east and away from the center of gravity of
> their populations. Their time came and went--long ago. I would rather
> shop in my own neighborhood (and do...), so I never buy anything
> downtown. There are practically no stores in the CBD anyway, other than
> coffee and sandwich shops that come and go. The downtown workers are
> gone in a flash when they drive home to the suburbs.
>
> Gary
>    


Detroit and Milwaukee are two different cities with their own sets of 
issues.  Detroit is perhaps the poster child of urban decay in the US, 
but it is also, arguably, the very worst of them.  Detroit may already 
be too far gone to be saved (at least, in the relatively near future).

Milwaukee actually has a few things going for it.  The downtown area is 
redeveloping (current real estate/economic woes notwithstanding), and 
people area actually moving back into the downtown area (i.e. living 
there).  The proposed streetcar line would go through some of the most 
densely-populated areas in Wisconsin.  It would tie into the intercity 
rail network (with an established route, Chicago-Milwaukee, and a new 
one, Milwaukee-Madison).  It would be very close to existing shopping 
and residential areas, and planed extensions would take it to 
soon-to-be-developed areas (such as the extension up 4th street to the 
Park-East corridor).  The biggest tragedy is that they weren't able to 
tear down 794 when they got rid of the Park East, as that would be prime 
land for significant development, and the streetcar would go right 
through the middle of it.  As it stands now, you've got this massive 
separator between the train station and where anything is.  The 
streetcar would at least provide a decent link for visitors.

-rm


From yance at oldmilwaukee.net  Sun May  9 10:32:02 2010
From: yance at oldmilwaukee.net (Y Marti)
Date: Sun, 09 May 2010 10:32:02 -0400
Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: Electric railways,
 streetcars,	interurbans, trams, light rail lines and trolley buses
 worldwide.	City officials announce Downtown Milwaukee streetcar route.
In-Reply-To: <4BE62BCB.8090403@gmail.com>
References: <20988-4BE5967E-5675@storefull-3171.bay.webtv.net>
 <4BE60BCB.6000007@SWDetroit.com> <4BE62BCB.8090403@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20100509103202.21324rsmrmi4q1s0@horde.oldmilwaukee.net>

The average UWM student that lives on the east side takes public  
transit unless they live in the on-campus dorms or very close by.  
Off-campus dorms offer their own shuttle but I see plenty of students  
that live on-campus take MCTS to get to ball games or downtown  
watering holes. Most evenings the #15 and #30 are packed with  
students. Times have changed where many students realize the economic  
benefits of car independence for getting around Milwaukee. You only  
have to look at the $3/gal price at the pump to see how this affects  
travel decisions.

Again, Milwaukee downtown has changed since the 70's and 80's. Things  
happen on every night of the week, summer and winter. Downtown  
residency is very dense and parking is at a premium. There are a large  
number of forward thinking elderly people living in downtown  
apartments and reaping the benefits of easy access to culture. A  
reliable downtown circular streetcar system for $1 a ride would be  
heavily used day and night. Many businesses would benefit which is why  
the idea is supported by all the downtown business associations.

The complaints about it hurting MCTS are silly and partisan. There is  
no MCTS line that offers this service without transfer. With MCTS  
threatening to abolish transfers with a new fare system, a huge  
customer base would be disenfranchised. I also doubt there will be a  
transfer system between lines. It's rare that transit lines with  
different owners have such a system. It would be even rarer if Walker  
would approve such an idea. But both systems can easily work  
separately without hurting either. I know a conservative 30-something  
that lives in the third ward and normally car commutes downtown who  
would take the streetcar to work but would be horrified at rubbing  
elbows with the "derelicts" on MCTS. That goes to show that the  
younger generation is willing to more readily adopt public transit.

Yance


From x779 at webtv.net  Mon May 10 12:31:07 2010
From: x779 at webtv.net (Louis Rugani)
Date: Mon, 10 May 2010 16:31:07 GMT
Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Milwaukee streetcar route.
Message-ID: <SNT113-DS864096661F007F4EF5BC598F90@phx.gbl>

My answer would be that the words "being forced" much more closely apply to bus ridership than anything to do with rail, the latter by far being the transit method of choice. 

=Lou=

~~~~~~~~~~ **-=\/=-** ~~~~~~~~~~

The opposite of bravery is not cowardice, but conformity.       Robert Anthony


-----Original Message-----
From: Ken and Tracie
Sent: Saturday, May 8, 2010 11:04 AM
To: milwaukee-electric at lists.dementia.org
Cc: Schneider Fred
Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: Electric railways, streetcars, interurbans, trams, light rail lines and trolley buses worldwide. City officials announce Downtown Milwaukee streetcar route.

A few months ago, I thought I raised the question as to whether or not the 
average MCTS bus rider would rather stay on rubber tires for a one seat ride 
Downtown rather than being forced onto a circular streetcar line for the 
last two miles of his/her trip.

K.
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Louis Rugani" <x779 at webtv.net>
To: <milwaukee-electric at lists.dementia.org>
Sent: Saturday, May 08, 2010 8:48 AM
Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Electric railways, streetcars, interurbans, 
trams, light rail lines and trolley buses worldwide. City officials announce 
Downtown Milwaukee streetcar route.


> Haven't heard a peep on this list yet about this long-awaited Milwaukee 
> traction renaissance:
> =Lou=
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~ **-=\/=-** ~~~~~~~~~~
>
> The opposite of bravery is not cowardice, but conformity.       Robert 
> Anthony 






From ktjosephson at embarqmail.com  Mon May 10 14:26:29 2010
From: ktjosephson at embarqmail.com (Ken and Tracie)
Date: Mon, 10 May 2010 11:26:29 -0700
Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: Milwaukee streetcar route.
References: <SNT113-DS864096661F007F4EF5BC598F90@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <EEB7348F96DB4C8FB9A14F736CB81F19@KTJosephson>

Personally, I'd rather ride on rails, but I believe truncating bus lines 
short of their original terminal and forcing people to transfer to a car 
line would be a publicity nightmare, playing right into the hands of the 
Wendell Cox crowd.

The accusations that doing so to inflate the rail line's passenger count 
and/or giving the Rush Limbaughs of the world ammunition, as they would say 
the mandated transfer is an example of "government making the public do 'the 
right thing.'" I see this as being detrimental to the "Back to Rails" 
movement.

Just my uneducated opinion.

K.
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Louis Rugani" <x779 at webtv.net>
To: <milwaukee-electric at lists.dementia.org>
Sent: Monday, May 10, 2010 9:31 AM
Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Milwaukee streetcar route.


> My answer would be that the words "being forced" much more closely apply 
> to bus ridership than anything to do with rail, the latter by far being 
> the transit method of choice.
>
> =Lou=
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~ **-=\/=-** ~~~~~~~~~~
>
> The opposite of bravery is not cowardice, but conformity.       Robert 
> Anthony
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Ken and Tracie
> Sent: Saturday, May 8, 2010 11:04 AM
> To: milwaukee-electric at lists.dementia.org
> Cc: Schneider Fred
> Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: Electric railways, streetcars, 
> interurbans, trams, light rail lines and trolley buses worldwide. City 
> officials announce Downtown Milwaukee streetcar route.
>
> A few months ago, I thought I raised the question as to whether or not the
> average MCTS bus rider would rather stay on rubber tires for a one seat 
> ride
> Downtown rather than being forced onto a circular streetcar line for the
> last two miles of his/her trip.
>
> K.
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Louis Rugani" <x779 at webtv.net>
> To: <milwaukee-electric at lists.dementia.org>
> Sent: Saturday, May 08, 2010 8:48 AM
> Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Electric railways, streetcars, interurbans,
> trams, light rail lines and trolley buses worldwide. City officials 
> announce
> Downtown Milwaukee streetcar route.
>
>
>> Haven't heard a peep on this list yet about this long-awaited Milwaukee
>> traction renaissance:
>> =Lou=
>>
>> ~~~~~~~~~~ **-=\/=-** ~~~~~~~~~~
>>
>> The opposite of bravery is not cowardice, but conformity.       Robert
>> Anthony
>
>
>
>
> 



From yance at oldmilwaukee.net  Mon May 10 14:37:55 2010
From: yance at oldmilwaukee.net (Y Marti)
Date: Mon, 10 May 2010 14:37:55 -0400
Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: Milwaukee streetcar route.
In-Reply-To: <EEB7348F96DB4C8FB9A14F736CB81F19@KTJosephson>
References: <SNT113-DS864096661F007F4EF5BC598F90@phx.gbl>
 <EEB7348F96DB4C8FB9A14F736CB81F19@KTJosephson>
Message-ID: <20100510143755.16044a8bdwkoepyc@horde.oldmilwaukee.net>

It would be unlikely because both systems will be operated by separate  
entities. I'm sure there has been threats from Walker that he'd cut  
lines adjacent to the streetcar loop but the fact is there is no bus  
service along the proposed route and the streetcar would tap into a  
different ridership. All east-west bus lines servicing downtown are  
limited to Wisconsin Avenue which is a little odd considering how  
demographics have shifted over the last 20 years.

Yance

Quoting Ken and Tracie <ktjosephson at embarqmail.com>:

> Personally, I'd rather ride on rails, but I believe truncating bus lines
> short of their original terminal and forcing people to transfer to a car
> line would be a publicity nightmare, playing right into the hands of the
> Wendell Cox crowd.
>
> The accusations that doing so to inflate the rail line's passenger count
> and/or giving the Rush Limbaughs of the world ammunition, as they would say
> the mandated transfer is an example of "government making the public do 'the
> right thing.'" I see this as being detrimental to the "Back to Rails"
> movement.
>
> Just my uneducated opinion.
>
> K.
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Louis Rugani" <x779 at webtv.net>
> To: <milwaukee-electric at lists.dementia.org>
> Sent: Monday, May 10, 2010 9:31 AM
> Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Milwaukee streetcar route.
>
>
>> My answer would be that the words "being forced" much more closely apply
>> to bus ridership than anything to do with rail, the latter by far being
>> the transit method of choice.
>>
>> =Lou=
>>
>> ~~~~~~~~~~ **-=\/=-** ~~~~~~~~~~
>>
>> The opposite of bravery is not cowardice, but conformity.       Robert
>> Anthony
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Ken and Tracie
>> Sent: Saturday, May 8, 2010 11:04 AM
>> To: milwaukee-electric at lists.dementia.org
>> Cc: Schneider Fred
>> Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: Electric railways, streetcars,
>> interurbans, trams, light rail lines and trolley buses worldwide. City
>> officials announce Downtown Milwaukee streetcar route.
>>
>> A few months ago, I thought I raised the question as to whether or not the
>> average MCTS bus rider would rather stay on rubber tires for a one seat
>> ride
>> Downtown rather than being forced onto a circular streetcar line for the
>> last two miles of his/her trip.
>>
>> K.
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Louis Rugani" <x779 at webtv.net>
>> To: <milwaukee-electric at lists.dementia.org>
>> Sent: Saturday, May 08, 2010 8:48 AM
>> Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Electric railways, streetcars, interurbans,
>> trams, light rail lines and trolley buses worldwide. City officials
>> announce
>> Downtown Milwaukee streetcar route.
>>
>>
>>> Haven't heard a peep on this list yet about this long-awaited Milwaukee
>>> traction renaissance:
>>> =Lou=
>>>
>>> ~~~~~~~~~~ **-=\/=-** ~~~~~~~~~~
>>>
>>> The opposite of bravery is not cowardice, but conformity.       Robert
>>> Anthony
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>




From gSchnabl at SWDetroit.com  Tue May 11 03:06:31 2010
From: gSchnabl at SWDetroit.com (Gary Schnabl)
Date: Tue, 11 May 2010 03:06:31 -0400
Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: Milwaukee streetcar route.
In-Reply-To: <EEB7348F96DB4C8FB9A14F736CB81F19@KTJosephson>
References: <SNT113-DS864096661F007F4EF5BC598F90@phx.gbl> <EEB7348F96DB4C8FB9A14F736CB81F19@KTJosephson>
Message-ID: <4BE901F7.6050700@SWDetroit.com>

On 5/10/2010 2:26 PM, Ken and Tracie wrote:
> Personally, I'd rather ride on rails, but I believe truncating bus lines
> short of their original terminal and forcing people to transfer to a car
> line would be a publicity nightmare, playing right into the hands of the
> Wendell Cox crowd.
>
> The accusations that doing so to inflate the rail line's passenger count
> and/or giving the Rush Limbaughs of the world ammunition, as they would say
> the mandated transfer is an example of "government making the public do 'the
> right thing.'" I see this as being detrimental to the "Back to Rails"
> movement.
>
> Just my uneducated opinion.
>
> K.
Detroit has its few, but very vocal, lightrail and commuter rail 
proponents. I suppose my former home and birthplace--Milwaukee--has its 
share of them.

My primary reason for not wanting either rail projects here is the co$t 
factor. The city of Detroit had a combined deficit this year of $800 
million between DPS (schools) and the city, and those rail-transit folks 
will not get it into their heads that the city is essentially bankrupt 
and has only survived without Chapter-9 bankruptcy the past decade by $ 
multi-billion bailouts from the state, county, and federal governments. 
It's like they go around with fingers in their ears and shouting, "La, 
la, la" in order to drown out anything that they do not ever want to hear.

SEMCOG has been planning its intercity (Ann Arbor to MidTown Detroit) 
commuter rail for years now but last month put it on hold indefinitely 
due to not getting boondoggle megabucks from the feds this year (or any 
year) because their plans always show the route to be a colossal 
potential failure that the feds will not fund. Nobody here seems to 
really want it anyway. The primary users of the Amtrak runs are college 
students at the University of Michigan and nearby Eastern Michigan 
University, and many of them (most?) head the other way--towards 
Chicago, not toward Detroit.

Metro Detroit's two expensive bus systems also have low riderships, 
except for those few hours for commuting. Many go around nearly empty 
otherwise, even after three major route or service cutbacks the past decade.

Gary

-- 

Gary Schnabl
Southwest Detroit, two miles NORTH! of Canada--Windsor, that is...






From ktjosephson at embarqmail.com  Tue May 11 03:53:50 2010
From: ktjosephson at embarqmail.com (Ken and Tracie)
Date: Tue, 11 May 2010 00:53:50 -0700
Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: Milwaukee streetcar route.
References: <SNT113-DS864096661F007F4EF5BC598F90@phx.gbl> <EEB7348F96DB4C8FB9A14F736CB81F19@KTJosephson> <4BE901F7.6050700@SWDetroit.com>
Message-ID: <28AE0E9412344E2F96556EE0A99E82B7@KTJosephson>

I see a "chicken and the egg" issue. If a major city's Downtown is no longer 
as relevant as it once was (as a center of commerce, culture, education, 
etc.), would a rail line help it regain its former position of community 
importance? Or does an existing common central destination make new rail 
transit service practical?

I believe Milwaukee needs address its long smoldering racial issues and the 
perceptions some members of both the city's White and African-American 
communities have of each other. Might that help to reverse urban sprawl?

There, I said it.

Some displaced, White former Northwest Siders seem to act like the riots of 
1967 never ended. And some Milwaukee Blacks act like they seem to believe 
the local White community wants to push them back into a Near North Side 
ghetto.

I believe part of urban sprawl (and its dependence on private auto usage) is 
due to people of means (regardless of their race, religion or ethnicity) 
using their financial position to move and live away from other people they 
find undesirable.

Many Middle Class Whites here in the Las Vegas Valley initially supported a 
light rail proposal between the main resort corridor and suburban Henderson. 
Then a politician pushed for an extension to less prosperous Downtown and 
further north into a ghetto which was transitioning from poor 
African-American to poor Mexican-American.

The physical link, by rail, seems to push people's fear buttons in a way 
that ordinary streets don't seem to. Seems irrational to me, as I never 
heard of non-White street gangs taking the trolley into a non-Black 
neighborhood to hassle White people.

Go figure.

But once that extension was announced, White people in Henderson went nuts 
and pushed to defeat the light rail proposal. They even started an 
anti-light rail website, showing photos of an accident involving a French 
high speed intercity train and a photo of a German high speed train wreck. 
Sort of like comparing a GG-1 to a PCC.

And yes, I remember the old joke about the 27th Street Viaduct being the 
longest bridge in the world because it connected Germany to Poland. My 
racially blended cousin (half White, Half Black) says that now it connects 
Africa to Mexico.

K.




----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Gary Schnabl" <gSchnabl at SWDetroit.com>
To: <milwaukee-electric at lists.dementia.org>
Sent: Tuesday, May 11, 2010 12:06 AM
Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: Milwaukee streetcar route.

> Detroit has its few, but very vocal, lightrail and commuter rail
> proponents. I suppose my former home and birthplace--Milwaukee--has its
> share of them.
>
> My primary reason for not wanting either rail projects here is the co$t
> factor. The city of Detroit had a combined deficit this year of $800
> million between DPS (schools) and the city, and those rail-transit folks
> will not get it into their heads that the city is essentially bankrupt
> and has only survived without Chapter-9 bankruptcy the past decade by $
> multi-billion bailouts from the state, county, and federal governments.
> It's like they go around with fingers in their ears and shouting, "La,
> la, la" in order to drown out anything that they do not ever want to hear.
>
> SEMCOG has been planning its intercity (Ann Arbor to MidTown Detroit)
> commuter rail for years now but last month put it on hold indefinitely
> due to not getting boondoggle megabucks from the feds this year (or any
> year) because their plans always show the route to be a colossal
> potential failure that the feds will not fund. Nobody here seems to
> really want it anyway. The primary users of the Amtrak runs are college
> students at the University of Michigan and nearby Eastern Michigan
> University, and many of them (most?) head the other way--towards
> Chicago, not toward Detroit.
>
> Metro Detroit's two expensive bus systems also have low riderships,
> except for those few hours for commuting. Many go around nearly empty
> otherwise, even after three major route or service cutbacks the past 
> decade.
>
> Gary
>
> -- 
>
> Gary Schnabl
> Southwest Detroit, two miles NORTH! of Canada--Windsor, that is...
>
>
>
>
> 



From x779 at webtv.net  Tue May 11 11:09:22 2010
From: x779 at webtv.net (Louis Rugani)
Date: Tue, 11 May 2010 15:09:22 GMT
Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Milwaukee streetcar route.
Message-ID: <SNT113-DS465CEA829A9DC81F6EDEF98FA0@phx.gbl>

Me, I'll just be happy when the skies are once again black with trolley wires. 

Rail shouldn't be tied in with race because buses already go all over those same areas, so let's build nice clean, sexy, attractive rail.  

Milwaukee's biggest problem, as I've always seen it, is its chronic indecision about absolutely everything. No matter how small the issue, Milwaukee likes to yell, argue, point fingers, create alliances for and long hatreds against, burn bridges, and do everything except not sweat the small stuff.

=Lou=

~~~~~~~~~~ **-=\/=-** ~~~~~~~~~~

The opposite of bravery is not cowardice, but conformity.       Robert Anthony


-----Original Message-----
From: Ken and Tracie
Sent: Tuesday, May 11, 2010 2:53 AM
To: milwaukee-electric at lists.dementia.org
Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: Milwaukee streetcar route.

I see a "chicken and the egg" issue. If a major city's Downtown is no longer 
as relevant as it once was (as a center of commerce, culture, education, 
etc.), would a rail line help it regain its former position of community 
importance? Or does an existing common central destination make new rail 
transit service practical?

I believe Milwaukee needs address its long smoldering racial issues and the 
perceptions some members of both the city's White and African-American 
communities have of each other. Might that help to reverse urban sprawl?

There, I said it.

Some displaced, White former Northwest Siders seem to act like the riots of 
1967 never ended. And some Milwaukee Blacks act like they seem to believe 
the local White community wants to push them back into a Near North Side 
ghetto.

I believe part of urban sprawl (and its dependence on private auto usage) is 
due to people of means (regardless of their race, religion or ethnicity) 
using their financial position to move and live away from other people they 
find undesirable.

Many Middle Class Whites here in the Las Vegas Valley initially supported a 
light rail proposal between the main resort corridor and suburban Henderson. 
Then a politician pushed for an extension to less prosperous Downtown and 
further north into a ghetto which was transitioning from poor 
African-American to poor Mexican-American.

The physical link, by rail, seems to push people's fear buttons in a way 
that ordinary streets don't seem to. Seems irrational to me, as I never 
heard of non-White street gangs taking the trolley into a non-Black 
neighborhood to hassle White people.

Go figure.

But once that extension was announced, White people in Henderson went nuts 
and pushed to defeat the light rail proposal. They even started an 
anti-light rail website, showing photos of an accident involving a French 
high speed intercity train and a photo of a German high speed train wreck. 
Sort of like comparing a GG-1 to a PCC.

And yes, I remember the old joke about the 27th Street Viaduct being the 
longest bridge in the world because it connected Germany to Poland. My 
racially blended cousin (half White, Half Black) says that now it connects 
Africa to Mexico.

K.




----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Gary Schnabl" <gSchnabl at SWDetroit.com>
To: <milwaukee-electric at lists.dementia.org>
Sent: Tuesday, May 11, 2010 12:06 AM
Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: Milwaukee streetcar route.

> Detroit has its few, but very vocal, lightrail and commuter rail
> proponents. I suppose my former home and birthplace--Milwaukee--has its
> share of them.
>
> My primary reason for not wanting either rail projects here is the co$t
> factor. The city of Detroit had a combined deficit this year of $800
> million between DPS (schools) and the city, and those rail-transit folks
> will not get it into their heads that the city is essentially bankrupt
> and has only survived without Chapter-9 bankruptcy the past decade by $
> multi-billion bailouts from the state, county, and federal governments.
> It's like they go around with fingers in their ears and shouting, "La,
> la, la" in order to drown out anything that they do not ever want to hear.
>
> SEMCOG has been planning its intercity (Ann Arbor to MidTown Detroit)
> commuter rail for years now but last month put it on hold indefinitely
> due to not getting boondoggle megabucks from the feds this year (or any
> year) because their plans always show the route to be a colossal
> potential failure that the feds will not fund. Nobody here seems to
> really want it anyway. The primary users of the Amtrak runs are college
> students at the University of Michigan and nearby Eastern Michigan
> University, and many of them (most?) head the other way--towards
> Chicago, not toward Detroit.
>
> Metro Detroit's two expensive bus systems also have low riderships,
> except for those few hours for commuting. Many go around nearly empty
> otherwise, even after three major route or service cutbacks the past 
> decade.
>
> Gary
>
> -- 
>
> Gary Schnabl
> Southwest Detroit, two miles NORTH! of Canada--Windsor, that is...
>
>
>
>
> 






From x779 at webtv.net  Tue May 11 12:09:25 2010
From: x779 at webtv.net (Louis Rugani)
Date: Tue, 11 May 2010 16:09:25 GMT
Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Transfers.
Message-ID: <SNT113-DS7B6285F340EAFCCE8AE4298FA0@phx.gbl>

One transfer is no big deal as long as you're out of the rain and snow. We have transfers to and from Metra/Wisconsin Coach/shuttle buses all the time in Kenosha. Then there's the Skokie Swift/Green Line transfer at Howard Street. No biggies. Me, I'd be glad to get off the gutterliner and onto a streetcar for part of my commute. 

=Lou=

~~~~~~~~~~ **-=\/=-** ~~~~~~~~~~

The opposite of bravery is not cowardice, but conformity.       Robert Anthony


-----Original Message-----
From: Ken and Tracie
Sent: Monday, May 10, 2010 1:26 PM
To: milwaukee-electric at lists.dementia.org
Cc: Schneider Fred
Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: Milwaukee streetcar route.

Personally, I'd rather ride on rails, but I believe truncating bus lines 
short of their original terminal and forcing people to transfer to a car 
line would be a publicity nightmare, playing right into the hands of the 
Wendell Cox crowd.

The accusations that doing so to inflate the rail line's passenger count 
and/or giving the Rush Limbaughs of the world ammunition, as they would say 
the mandated transfer is an example of "government making the public do 'the 
right thing.'" I see this as being detrimental to the "Back to Rails" 
movement.

Just my uneducated opinion.

K.
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Louis Rugani" <x779 at webtv.net>
To: <milwaukee-electric at lists.dementia.org>
Sent: Monday, May 10, 2010 9:31 AM
Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Milwaukee streetcar route.


> My answer would be that the words "being forced" much more closely apply 
> to bus ridership than anything to do with rail, the latter by far being 
> the transit method of choice.
>
> =Lou=
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~ **-=\/=-** ~~~~~~~~~~
>
> The opposite of bravery is not cowardice, but conformity.       Robert 
> Anthony
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Ken and Tracie
> Sent: Saturday, May 8, 2010 11:04 AM
> To: milwaukee-electric at lists.dementia.org
> Cc: Schneider Fred
> Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: Electric railways, streetcars, 
> interurbans, trams, light rail lines and trolley buses worldwide. City 
> officials announce Downtown Milwaukee streetcar route.
>
> A few months ago, I thought I raised the question as to whether or not the
> average MCTS bus rider would rather stay on rubber tires for a one seat 
> ride
> Downtown rather than being forced onto a circular streetcar line for the
> last two miles of his/her trip.
>
> K.
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Louis Rugani" <x779 at webtv.net>
> To: <milwaukee-electric at lists.dementia.org>
> Sent: Saturday, May 08, 2010 8:48 AM
> Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Electric railways, streetcars, interurbans,
> trams, light rail lines and trolley buses worldwide. City officials 
> announce
> Downtown Milwaukee streetcar route.
>
>
>> Haven't heard a peep on this list yet about this long-awaited Milwaukee
>> traction renaissance:
>> =Lou=
>>
>> ~~~~~~~~~~ **-=\/=-** ~~~~~~~~~~
>>
>> The opposite of bravery is not cowardice, but conformity.       Robert
>> Anthony
>
>
>
>
> 






From jdl896 at wi.rr.com  Tue May 11 17:47:29 2010
From: jdl896 at wi.rr.com (jdl896 at wi.rr.com)
Date: Tue, 11 May 2010 21:47:29 +0000
Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: Electric railways, streetcars,
	interurbans, trams, light rail lines and trolley buses worldwide.	City
 officials announce Downtown Milwaukee streetcar route.
In-Reply-To: <20100509103202.21324rsmrmi4q1s0@horde.oldmilwaukee.net>
Message-ID: <20100511214729.4E1KN.105323.root@hrndva-web05-z02>

All of these reasons for a low cost streetcar line make perfect sense. Those of us who no longer drive, whether disabled, or older would certainly benefit like me). I realize that non-drivers are a minority in the community mostly because of the money it takes to purchase, park and maintain them. Are these the kind of people Scott Walker (and other conservatives) refer to as derelicts?

I have been a trackless trolley/interurban fan for yours. By the way, I am truly offended by whoever said they couldn't wait until the skies were 'black with trolley wires' Maybe they'd prefer the health hazards of smog and pollution for gas and motor oil to fill the air, instead.

Jon
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-===-=-=-==-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=


---- Y Marti <yance at oldmilwaukee.net> wrote: 
> The average UWM student that lives on the east side takes public  
> transit unless they live in the on-campus dorms or very close by.  
> Off-campus dorms offer their own shuttle but I see plenty of students  
> that live on-campus take MCTS to get to ball games or downtown  
> watering holes. Most evenings the #15 and #30 are packed with  
> students. Times have changed where many students realize the economic  
> benefits of car independence for getting around Milwaukee. You only  
> have to look at the $3/gal price at the pump to see how this affects  
> travel decisions.
> 
> Again, Milwaukee downtown has changed since the 70's and 80's. Things  
> happen on every night of the week, summer and winter. Downtown  
> residency is very dense and parking is at a premium. There are a large  
> number of forward thinking elderly people living in downtown  
> apartments and reaping the benefits of easy access to culture. A  
> reliable downtown circular streetcar system for $1 a ride would be  
> heavily used day and night. Many businesses would benefit which is why  
> the idea is supported by all the downtown business associations.
> 
> The complaints about it hurting MCTS are silly and partisan. There is  
> no MCTS line that offers this service without transfer. With MCTS  
> threatening to abolish transfers with a new fare system, a huge  
> customer base would be disenfranchised. I also doubt there will be a  
> transfer system between lines. It's rare that transit lines with  
> different owners have such a system. It would be even rarer if Walker  
> would approve such an idea. But both systems can easily work  
> separately without hurting either. I know a conservative 30-something  
> that lives in the third ward and normally car commutes downtown who  
> would take the streetcar to work but would be horrified at rubbing  
> elbows with the "derelicts" on MCTS. That goes to show that the  
> younger generation is willing to more readily adopt public transit.
> 
> Yance
> 



From gSchnabl at SWDetroit.com  Tue May 11 18:44:52 2010
From: gSchnabl at SWDetroit.com (Gary Schnabl)
Date: Tue, 11 May 2010 18:44:52 -0400
Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: Electric railways, streetcars,	interurbans,
 trams, light rail lines and trolley buses worldwide.	City officials announce
 Downtown Milwaukee streetcar route.
In-Reply-To: <20100511214729.4E1KN.105323.root@hrndva-web05-z02>
References: <20100511214729.4E1KN.105323.root@hrndva-web05-z02>
Message-ID: <4BE9DDE4.7020303@SWDetroit.com>

On 5/11/2010 5:47 PM, jdl896 at wi.rr.com wrote:
> All of these reasons for a low cost streetcar line make perfect sense. Those of us who no longer drive, whether disabled, or older would certainly benefit like me). I realize that non-drivers are a minority in the community mostly because of the money it takes to purchase, park and maintain them. Are these the kind of people Scott Walker (and other conservatives) refer to as derelicts?
>
> I have been a trackless trolley/interurban fan for yours. By the way, I am truly offended by whoever said they couldn't wait until the skies were 'black with trolley wires' Maybe they'd prefer the health hazards of smog and pollution for gas and motor oil to fill the air, instead.
>
> Jon
>    
Yet, most American electric utilities burn our 700-year reserves of 
coal. Hardly pollution free, though.

But still we have to burn it (or nuclear fuel...) if our country wants 
to maintain or increase its electrical consumption. BTW, as an 
electrical engineer myself, I maintain the so-called anthropogenic 
global warming is not anywhere near proven science--just another means 
for the socialists to tax utilities via Cap & Trade--who in turn will 
tax their consumers with yet higher mandated rate increases.

Gary


-- 

Gary Schnabl
Southwest Detroit, two miles NORTH! of Canada--Windsor, that is...





From x779 at webtv.net  Wed May 12 11:54:03 2010
From: x779 at webtv.net (Louis Rugani)
Date: Wed, 12 May 2010 15:54:03 GMT
Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Oh, for the crying out loud ...
Message-ID: <SNT113-DS20B37565C54E587E53ED8D98FB0@phx.gbl>

"Jon" jdl896 at wi.rr.com wrote:

"I am truly offended by whoever said they couldn't wait until the skies were 'black with trolley wires' Maybe they'd prefer the health hazards of smog and pollution for gas and motor oil to fill the air, instead."

Jon
============== 

I'm the 'whoever', Jon.

Gawd, I hate explaining jokes, but <sigh> see, Jon, lots of trolley wires overhead mean lots of trolleys! You like trolleys, I like trolleys, WE like trolleys, okay?

=Lou=

~~~~~~~~~~ **-=\/=-** ~~~~~~~~~~

The opposite of bravery is not cowardice, but conformity.       Robert Anthony




From jdl896 at wi.rr.com  Wed May 12 19:37:23 2010
From: jdl896 at wi.rr.com (jdl896 at wi.rr.com)
Date: Wed, 12 May 2010 23:37:23 +0000
Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: Oh, for the crying out loud ...
In-Reply-To: <SNT113-DS20B37565C54E587E53ED8D98FB0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <20100512233723.HRH1T.331099.root@hrndva-web06-z02>

Louis~
 tot ally apologize for taking your joke out of context. I have plenty of reasons for my response , but there was absolutely NO reason to offend a fellow trolley lover. I was raised in the final years of the trolley bus. I also kept a sharp eye out for streets that still has visible streetcar rails. I mentioned this before, buy I was kid that watched the initial widening of Water Street (near Laacke and Joys). I saw the removal of the rail and copped a few Milwaukee cobblestones as  souvenirs! If I'd had a camera, I would have taken a few shorts of the drinking fountain for horses that existed in the days when Ogden street ended at  Water!
Jon





From lallan45 at gmail.com  Fri May 14 00:19:38 2010
From: lallan45 at gmail.com (Larry Allan)
Date: Thu, 13 May 2010 23:19:38 -0500
Subject: [milwaukee-electric] 1948 Membership Logo
Message-ID: <AANLkTimeLlLSk5_9oPePgdos0ikpysN7ZUiuBKvua4pP@mail.gmail.com>


From ktjosephson at embarqmail.com  Wed May 19 23:34:37 2010
From: ktjosephson at embarqmail.com (Ken and Tracie)
Date: Wed, 19 May 2010 20:34:37 -0700
Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Streetcar Tracks on S. 1st, Near Pittsburgh
Message-ID: <A1B073CCD0C64316B35B5B7AD6019C8E@KTJosephson>

Somebody just e-mailed me about the recently uncovered streetcar tracks on S. 1st, near Pittsburgh Avenue.
Which car line used these tracks? The 15? 

Thanks for any replies.

K.


From DLeistikow at webtv.net  Thu May 20 02:27:50 2010
From: DLeistikow at webtv.net (Don L. Leistikow)
Date: Thu, 20 May 2010 01:27:50 -0500
Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: Streetcar Tracks on S. 1st, Near
	Pittsburgh
In-Reply-To: "Ken and Tracie" <ktjosephson@embarqmail.com>'s message of Wed, 19 May 2010 20:34:37 -0700
Message-ID: <19568-4BF4D666-2007@storefull-3173.bay.webtv.net>

Ken:   Pittsburgh Street is just a block past the Milwaukee River
Bridge.  The original tracks coming south, off the bridge turned west on
Seeboth Street thence south again on S. 1st Street.  Pittsburgh  is one
block south of Seeboth.  

Some years ago, the building and land bordered by Seeboth, S.1s and
Pittsburgh, was cleared for street widening and tracks were laid on a
line with the angled bridge which connected with S. Water street on th
north side of the river and E. Seeboth . S. Water street went off on a
SE angle from the east side and opposite of Seeboth street.                                         

Streetcar Routes 15 OAKLAND~DELAWARE and  18 NATIONAL~FOND DU LAC lines
operated on Water and S. 1st streets, in that area.                                                  

Don L.     



From lallan45 at gmail.com  Sat May 29 00:11:44 2010
From: lallan45 at gmail.com (Larry Allan)
Date: Fri, 28 May 2010 23:11:44 -0500
Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Redevelopment may take the last TM relics of the West Allis Station
Message-ID: <AANLkTinhXWpJsESCl1ybu0JsNoLXDN6w-toBVkD85E6k@mail.gmail.com>

The Milwaukee Journal/Sentinel published A "Notice of Public Hearing"
regarding the redevelopment of the area of S. 84th St. and Greenfield Av.
The redevelopment boundary includes the old Bus Garage structure. Attached
is the Notice and some photos of the Bus Garage structure which was
converted to a shopping center.


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-- URL : http://lists.dementia.org/files/milwaukee-electric/PUBhear84st.pdf


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-- URL : http://lists.dementia.org/files/milwaukee-electric/wabusgarage84st.jpg


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-- URL : http://lists.dementia.org/files/milwaukee-electric/West[1].Allis.Station.9.10.09.008.jpg


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-- URL : http://lists.dementia.org/files/milwaukee-electric/West[1].Allis.Station.9.10.09.003.jpg


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From lallan45 at gmail.com  Sat May 29 00:16:41 2010
From: lallan45 at gmail.com (Larry Allan)
Date: Fri, 28 May 2010 23:16:41 -0500
Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Notice of Public Hearing Redevelopment S. 84th St.
Message-ID: <AANLkTimoVfXUgmhRQVS0-Lh7ZbBkBP0H2cJnB_76NRqx@mail.gmail.com>

Sorry,I forgot to attach the Notice. Here it is:


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-- URL : http://lists.dementia.org/files/milwaukee-electric/02-PUBhear84st.pdf




From lallan45 at gmail.com  Sat May 29 11:54:04 2010
From: lallan45 at gmail.com (Larry Allan)
Date: Sat, 29 May 2010 10:54:04 -0500
Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Redevelopment Notice in jpg format
Message-ID: <AANLkTil1jNr4Yju9QykdnrlfLBSyuuTepziaP6entIY0@mail.gmail.com>

Redevelopment Notice in jpg format of S. 84th & Greenfield av. area.


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-- URL : http://lists.dementia.org/files/milwaukee-electric/Publicnotice84thst3.jpg