[milwaukee-electric] Re: Electric railways, streetcars, interurbans, trams, light rail lines and trolley buses worldwide. City officials announce Downtown Milwaukee streetcar route.

[Robert Madison]

On 08-May-10 20:11, Gary Schnabl wrote:
> On 5/8/2010 12:51 PM, Don L. Leistikow wrote:
>    
>> Ken and list:   No contest.... No one is going to do that.  This will be
>> a circulator, obviously intended for the convenience of UWM students and
>> Faculty.  The attraction will be the Fare Factor.
>>      
> Hi Ken, Don, et al.
>
> Just why should UW-M students get a "free ride" in the form of cheaper
> streetcar rides when there is ample bus service to UWM?

Bus service has been cut back every year for the last decade.  There's 
still decent service between downtown and UWM (about the only corridor 
left in the entire service area with service that rivals "good").  The 
"fare factor" will not be one for the students, as they get the U-PASS, 
which gives them unlimited riding on any bus route in the system 
currently.  I haven't read up on whether it is proposed to integrate the 
streetcar fares with the bus fares (if so, then the U-PASS would 
probably be valid on that as well).  The latest route proposal looks 
like, if it reaches UWM, it would entirely replace route #30 up there.

> When I lived at
> Park and Murray or next to the Oakland carbarn, I simply walked to UWM
> most of the time, when I attended it. And I had a 1959 Harley Duo-Glide
> hog, a 1957 Jaguar XK150, and a 1961 Impala convertible at the time.
> Plus, I had one of more jobs then as a student and never took out a
> student loan. Sorry, but college kids today are just that--kids,
> dependent upon others for the very existence...
>    

Way back when, you could easily pay for college with a part-time job.  
Today, it is damn near impossible for a college student to get through 
college without taking out student loans, unless they get scholarships, 
or have wealthy and generous families.  College kids today are paying 
for the economic mistakes of previous generations, who are sticking them 
with high tuition costs, ridiculous textbook costs (it has been about 
five years since I was in school, so I don't know what the trend is for 
converting books to electronic format), etc.

>> Senior Citizens retruning to the CBD will find it useful, particularly
>> those who no longer can Drive an automobile.
>>
>> There is a very definite plus side, that being the introduction of
>> non-air polluting streetcars.  With UWM at one end and  Amtrak at the
>> other end yes, there will be riders.  No more problems with finding a
>> Parking lot, expensive as they are, will be a significant attraction.
>>      
> Alhough I do not live in Milwaukee any longer, I am now elderly. Why
> would we oldsters bother to go downtown? I live four miles from the
> heart of downtown Detroit, yet I almost never go down there. A streetcar
> connecting me to the CBD would not entice me to ride it.
>    

Then don't.

>> Rebuilding the Central Business District will be the answer to the still
>> declining population in the City of Milwaukee.  The real porblem is;
>> What comes first, the Chicken, or the Egg
>>      
> Detroit lost over 60% of its 1958 population number. Lack of jobs is the
> critical factor--not transit. Transit is a second (or third)-order
> factor, compared to jobs in the private sector. I expect Detroit's
> population to get down to 500,000 (from its current 750,000?), but
> before that, it will go Chapter 9 bankrupt.
>    

When did this become a topic about Detroit?  This is about a Milwaukee 
streetcar plan.

>    
>> Some 24+ Cities have swung over to electric rail transit, in one form or
>> another. The response has been phenominal.  Once established,  Ridership
>> in thsoe Cities jumped so quickly and strong, that extensions are
>> quickly planned and built.  some Cities are now in their thrid expansion
>> of rail transit.
>>
>> Wisconsin lags drastically as the Highway Lobby and the Road Builders
>> Associations, continue to push for Freeway extensions and widening
>> programs.  We don't need more Freeways and we don't need to spend
>> endless dollars for more cement and asphalt.  We need, balanced
>> transportation.  Toll Gates on the Freeways of Wisconsin, will
>> automatically reduce rubbertired vehicles and give us a return on
>> investment.
>>      
> The Detroit to Ann Arbor commuter rail project (along the Amtrak ROW
> that is less than 1000 feet from my residence) is probably dead now,
> although millions were spent "planning" it by planners who live from
> plan to plan. The cost/ridership figures from SEMCOG--the group that
> does most of the "planning" came up with $146 per passenger ride--one
> way. Just why would the taxpayers swallow that boondoggle? Almost a $275
> subsidy per passenger for a daily round trip?!
>    

Again, what does this have to do with Milwaukee?

>    
>> The magical formerly introduced when funding for Freeways was
>> considered... was then 90% Federal monies.  All other transportation was
>> funded at only 50%.  Of late, the 90% from the Feds, is long gone.  What
>> the highways and freeways get from the Feds today, I am not aware.
>>
>> A strong CBD is what we need in the Metro Area. Wihtout that, the Metro
>> Area is doomed to bedroom communities with high taxes tp pay for public
>> services... electricity, gas, water, garbage, snowplowing... to name a
>> few.....
>>      
> The CBDs in Detroit and Milwaukee are hardly "central," both stuck way
> by themselves far to the east and away from the center of gravity of
> their populations. Their time came and went--long ago. I would rather
> shop in my own neighborhood (and do...), so I never buy anything
> downtown. There are practically no stores in the CBD anyway, other than
> coffee and sandwich shops that come and go. The downtown workers are
> gone in a flash when they drive home to the suburbs.
>
> Gary
>    


Detroit and Milwaukee are two different cities with their own sets of 
issues.  Detroit is perhaps the poster child of urban decay in the US, 
but it is also, arguably, the very worst of them.  Detroit may already 
be too far gone to be saved (at least, in the relatively near future).

Milwaukee actually has a few things going for it.  The downtown area is 
redeveloping (current real estate/economic woes notwithstanding), and 
people area actually moving back into the downtown area (i.e. living 
there).  The proposed streetcar line would go through some of the most 
densely-populated areas in Wisconsin.  It would tie into the intercity 
rail network (with an established route, Chicago-Milwaukee, and a new 
one, Milwaukee-Madison).  It would be very close to existing shopping 
and residential areas, and planed extensions would take it to 
soon-to-be-developed areas (such as the extension up 4th street to the 
Park-East corridor).  The biggest tragedy is that they weren't able to 
tear down 794 when they got rid of the Park East, as that would be prime 
land for significant development, and the streetcar would go right 
through the middle of it.  As it stands now, you've got this massive 
separator between the train station and where anything is.  The 
streetcar would at least provide a decent link for visitors.

-rm