From gSchnabl at SWDetroit.com  Sat Nov  6 18:10:52 2010
From: gSchnabl at SWDetroit.com (Gary Schnabl)
Date: Sat, 06 Nov 2010 18:10:52 -0400
Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Milwaukee slums during the 1940s and afterward
Message-ID: <4CD5D26C.2010105@SWDetroit.com>

1936 slum photo (from the Wikipedia files) 
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Slums_in_milwaukee_1936.png>
Reading some old archival information about the earliest freeway 
commission during the middle to late 1940s, I learned that Milwaukee's 
E-W freeway was to be centered along Highland, which they considered to 
be a slum or such. However, as soon as Hibernia became available in the 
early 1950s, the commission quickly labeled that street as a slum too 
(probably to condemn its land much easier).

I only started driving around 1960, and living at 42nd and Capitol (or 
157th and Burleigh), before that time I did not frequent the Highland 
Street area much because of having few reasons to go near or through 
there. During my two years attending Marquette during 1961 to 1963, I 
would often park my car in or nearby the Hibernia area (or wherever I 
might locate an available spot...) and never considered Hibernia to be 
slummy--just older houses and such. My only concept of a real Milwaukee 
slum then was the short  rat-infested area along or near Winnebago (a 
couple blocks north of Highland), especially when I made pickups and 
deliveries there for our family business as a teenager.

I assume that the freeway commission in the 1940s chose the 
worst-housing area for their proposed E-W freeway. Was Highland really 
that bad (or Hibernia too, for that matter)? Was Wikipedia's stock photo 
representative of that area? Or was Highland chosen so that the freeway 
would take advantage of other terrain features without endangering 
nearby business, before the rapid-transit ROW became available?


Gary


-- 

Gary Schnabl
Southwest Detroit, two miles NORTH! of Canada--Windsor, that is...





From sbgreig_m1 at yahoo.com  Sun Nov  7 02:20:40 2010
From: sbgreig_m1 at yahoo.com (Scott Greig)
Date: Sun, 7 Nov 2010 00:20:40 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: Milwaukee slums during the 1940s and afterward
In-Reply-To: <4CD5D26C.2010105@SWDetroit.com>
Message-ID: <405974.14369.qm@web120703.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>

One of my friends had relatives who lived along Highland Boulevard out by Cold Spring.? He certainly wouldn't have called that area a slum...in fact he says it was very nice.
If I recall, Highland ceased being a boulevard east of about 27th Street...perhaps that area was more ratty.? The housing along the north side of the RTL certainly looked pretty tired from photos.? My understanding was that the highway commission had their eye on the Rapid Transit right of way all along...if so, it's a big reason why I think Speedrail never had a chance of success in the long run.

--- On Sat, 11/6/10, Gary Schnabl <gSchnabl at SWDetroit.com> wrote:

From: Gary Schnabl <gSchnabl at SWDetroit.com>
Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Milwaukee slums during the 1940s and afterward
To: milwaukee-electric at lists.dementia.org
Date: Saturday, November 6, 2010, 5:10 PM

1936 slum photo (from the Wikipedia files) 
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Slums_in_milwaukee_1936.png>
Reading some old archival information about the earliest freeway 
commission during the middle to late 1940s, I learned that Milwaukee's 
E-W freeway was to be centered along Highland, which they considered to 
be a slum or such. However, as soon as Hibernia became available in the 
early 1950s, the commission quickly labeled that street as a slum too 
(probably to condemn its land much easier).

I only started driving around 1960, and living at 42nd and Capitol (or 
157th and Burleigh), before that time I did not frequent the Highland 
Street area much because of having few reasons to go near or through 
there. During my two years attending Marquette during 1961 to 1963, I 
would often park my car in or nearby the Hibernia area (or wherever I 
might locate an available spot...) and never considered Hibernia to be 
slummy--just older houses and such. My only concept of a real Milwaukee 
slum then was the short? rat-infested area along or near Winnebago (a 
couple blocks north of Highland), especially when I made pickups and 
deliveries there for our family business as a teenager.

I assume that the freeway commission in the 1940s chose the 
worst-housing area for their proposed E-W freeway. Was Highland really 
that bad (or Hibernia too, for that matter)? Was Wikipedia's stock photo 
representative of that area? Or was Highland chosen so that the freeway 
would take advantage of other terrain features without endangering 
nearby business, before the rapid-transit ROW became available?


Gary


-- 

Gary Schnabl
Southwest Detroit, two miles NORTH! of Canada--Windsor, that is...







From gSchnabl at SWDetroit.com  Sun Nov  7 12:47:49 2010
From: gSchnabl at SWDetroit.com (Gary Schnabl)
Date: Sun, 07 Nov 2010 12:47:49 -0500
Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: Milwaukee slums during the 1940s and
 afterward
In-Reply-To: <405974.14369.qm@web120703.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
References: <405974.14369.qm@web120703.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <4CD6E645.3000506@SWDetroit.com>

On 11/7/2010 2:20 AM, Scott Greig wrote:
> One of my friends had relatives who lived along Highland Boulevard out by Cold Spring.  He certainly wouldn't have called that area a slum...in fact he says it was very nice.
> If I recall, Highland ceased being a boulevard east of about 27th Street...perhaps that area was more ratty.  The housing along the north side of the RTL certainly looked pretty tired from photos.  My understanding was that the highway commission had their eye on the Rapid Transit right of way all along...if so, it's a big reason why I think Speedrail never had a chance of success in the long run.
>
> --- On Sat, 11/6/10, Gary Schnabl<gSchnabl at SWDetroit.com>  wrote:
>
> From: Gary Schnabl<gSchnabl at SWDetroit.com>
> Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Milwaukee slums during the 1940s and afterward
> To: milwaukee-electric at lists.dementia.org
> Date: Saturday, November 6, 2010, 5:10 PM
>
> 1936 slum photo (from the Wikipedia files)
> <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Slums_in_milwaukee_1936.png>
> Reading some old archival information about the earliest freeway
> commission during the middle to late 1940s, I learned that Milwaukee's
> E-W freeway was to be centered along Highland, which they considered to
> be a slum or such. However, as soon as Hibernia became available in the
> early 1950s, the commission quickly labeled that street as a slum too
> (probably to condemn its land much easier).
>
> I only started driving around 1960, and living at 42nd and Capitol (or
> 157th and Burleigh), before that time I did not frequent the Highland
> Street area much because of having few reasons to go near or through
> there. During my two years attending Marquette during 1961 to 1963, I
> would often park my car in or nearby the Hibernia area (or wherever I
> might locate an available spot...) and never considered Hibernia to be
> slummy--just older houses and such. My only concept of a real Milwaukee
> slum then was the short  rat-infested area along or near Winnebago (a
> couple blocks north of Highland), especially when I made pickups and
> deliveries there for our family business as a teenager.
>
> I assume that the freeway commission in the 1940s chose the
> worst-housing area for their proposed E-W freeway. Was Highland really
> that bad (or Hibernia too, for that matter)? Was Wikipedia's stock photo
> representative of that area? Or was Highland chosen so that the freeway
> would take advantage of other terrain features without endangering
> nearby business, before the rapid-transit ROW became available?
>
>
> Gary
The part of Highland that I meant was perhaps slummy was that area where 
Marquette had their frat and sorority houses and east of that--near the 
Milwaukee River. I rode that very short stretch of Highland as a preteen 
or teen nearly daily whenever I rode the #30 line to downtown or 
Marquette High from Sherman and Capitol. That area was nice. The aromas 
from Miller and Gettlemann were almost always present.

A lingering question I have is how long might have Speedrail lasted were 
it not for its "accident?" If it could have survived through the 1950s, 
having the E-W Freeway along the ROW would not have been likely, and the 
proposed Highland corridor would have already started with land 
acquisition and construction. That would have permanently altered 
Milwaukee, even if the ROW eventually became available at a later date.

In case anybody forgot, the first 2200 feet of freeway in Milwaukee was 
the first Stadium Freeway (along 42nd Street) north of National Avenue, 
which would service Milwaukee County Stadium being built in 1952.

Gary

-- 

Gary Schnabl
Southwest Detroit, two miles NORTH! of Canada--Windsor, that is...

Technical Editor forum <http://TechnicalEditor.FreeForums.org>

LinkedIn profile <http://www.linkedin.com/in/garyschnabl>

Elance profile 
<http://www.elance.com/php/profile/main/eolproviderprofile.php?userid=1892120&catid=100&edit=true&from=myelance>





From gSchnabl at SWDetroit.com  Sun Nov  7 17:49:29 2010
From: gSchnabl at SWDetroit.com (Gary Schnabl)
Date: Sun, 07 Nov 2010 17:49:29 -0500
Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: Milwaukee slums during the 1940s  and
 afterward
In-Reply-To: <0LBJ00NJBD0011C3@vms173005.mailsrvcs.net>
References: <405974.14369.qm@web120703.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <4CD6E645.3000506@SWDetroit.com> <0LBJ00NJBD0011C3@vms173005.mailsrvcs.net>
Message-ID: <4CD72CF9.9020803@SWDetroit.com>

On 11/7/2010 5:26 PM, Don Ross wrote:
> Does this mean that you are one of the Hilltop Jebbies?
> I was class of 1948.
> Don
Freshman and sophomore years at MUHS, starting in fall of 1957. Got a 
ride in and usually had to hitchhike home the ten miles to Pilgrim & 
Burleigh. Or take two city buses and walk the final four miles home from 
92nd and Burleigh or 109th and Capitol.

First three semesters at MU (electrical engineering) before transferring 
to UW-Madison.


-- 

Gary Schnabl
Southwest Detroit, two miles NORTH! of Canada--Windsor, that is...






From yance at oldmilwaukee.net  Sun Nov  7 08:06:42 2010
From: yance at oldmilwaukee.net (Y Marti)
Date: Sun, 07 Nov 2010 08:06:42 -0500
Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: Milwaukee slums during the 1940s and
 afterward
In-Reply-To: <4CD5D26C.2010105@SWDetroit.com>
References: <4CD5D26C.2010105@SWDetroit.com>
Message-ID: <20101107080642.15865r59cy0pm3k0@horde.oldmilwaukee.net>

Gary,

First off, the photo is not wikipedia's. It is a huge collection that  
the Library of Congress has. Photographer Carl Mydans took quite a few  
in Milwaukee during that time as can be seen here:

http://www.loc.gov/pictures/search/?q=mydans%20milwaukee

At that time there were many slums around downtown. One of the worst  
was around Walnut and 6th street which was the reason for the push  
towards the Hillside Terrace projects. Another slum was the third ward  
area from Michigan to St. Paul which was eventually cleared in the  
late 1950s. In the early 1940s the courthouse area was cleared because  
the City didn't want that slum in the shadow of the courthouse. The  
same was done around city Hall around the same time.

One of the earliest and most dangerous slums was downtown area, west  
of the river and north of Wisconsin Ave. In the late 1800s and early  
1900s this area was filled with gambling dens, opium dens, and  
flophouses. The most dangerous "tenderloin district" was on the near  
south side around 2nd & Greenfield. Police on beat had to travel in  
pairs and even then they rarely patrolled the area.

The freeway location changed as time progressed and the project became  
larger. Initial plans were of wide boulevards. Sixth street and  
Kilbourn were the first streets widened as "expressways".

Yance
www.oldmilwaukee.net

In Milwaukee, adjacQuoting Gary Schnabl <gSchnabl at SWDetroit.com>:

> 1936 slum photo (from the Wikipedia files)
> <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Slums_in_milwaukee_1936.png>
> Reading some old archival information about the earliest freeway
> commission during the middle to late 1940s, I learned that Milwaukee's
> E-W freeway was to be centered along Highland, which they considered to
> be a slum or such. However, as soon as Hibernia became available in the
> early 1950s, the commission quickly labeled that street as a slum too
> (probably to condemn its land much easier).
>
> I only started driving around 1960, and living at 42nd and Capitol (or
> 157th and Burleigh), before that time I did not frequent the Highland
> Street area much because of having few reasons to go near or through
> there. During my two years attending Marquette during 1961 to 1963, I
> would often park my car in or nearby the Hibernia area (or wherever I
> might locate an available spot...) and never considered Hibernia to be
> slummy--just older houses and such. My only concept of a real Milwaukee
> slum then was the short  rat-infested area along or near Winnebago (a
> couple blocks north of Highland), especially when I made pickups and
> deliveries there for our family business as a teenager.
>
> I assume that the freeway commission in the 1940s chose the
> worst-housing area for their proposed E-W freeway. Was Highland really
> that bad (or Hibernia too, for that matter)? Was Wikipedia's stock photo
> representative of that area? Or was Highland chosen so that the freeway
> would take advantage of other terrain features without endangering
> nearby business, before the rapid-transit ROW became available?
>
>
> Gary
>
>
> --
>
> Gary Schnabl
> Southwest Detroit, two miles NORTH! of Canada--Windsor, that is...
>
>
>
>
>




From ktjosephson at embarqmail.com  Sun Nov  7 18:13:44 2010
From: ktjosephson at embarqmail.com (Ken and Tracie)
Date: Sun, 7 Nov 2010 15:13:44 -0800
Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: Milwaukee slums during the 1940s and afterward
References: <4CD5D26C.2010105@SWDetroit.com> <20101107080642.15865r59cy0pm3k0@horde.oldmilwaukee.net>
Message-ID: <05D57105E3FB4066A4E7A4FD30A995CC@KTJosephson>

Also, there is a person who has a "Wisconsin State Highways" site who has a 
detailed history of expressway/freeway planning and construction in 
Milwaukee.

K.

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Y Marti" <yance at oldmilwaukee.net>
To: <milwaukee-electric at lists.dementia.org>
Sent: Sunday, November 07, 2010 5:06 AM
Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: Milwaukee slums during the 1940s and 
afterward


> Gary,
>
> First off, the photo is not wikipedia's. It is a huge collection that
> the Library of Congress has. Photographer Carl Mydans took quite a few
> in Milwaukee during that time as can be seen here:
>
> http://www.loc.gov/pictures/search/?q=mydans%20milwaukee
>
> At that time there were many slums around downtown. One of the worst
> was around Walnut and 6th street which was the reason for the push
> towards the Hillside Terrace projects. Another slum was the third ward
> area from Michigan to St. Paul which was eventually cleared in the
> late 1950s. In the early 1940s the courthouse area was cleared because
> the City didn't want that slum in the shadow of the courthouse. The
> same was done around city Hall around the same time.
>
> One of the earliest and most dangerous slums was downtown area, west
> of the river and north of Wisconsin Ave. In the late 1800s and early
> 1900s this area was filled with gambling dens, opium dens, and
> flophouses. The most dangerous "tenderloin district" was on the near
> south side around 2nd & Greenfield. Police on beat had to travel in
> pairs and even then they rarely patrolled the area.
>
> The freeway location changed as time progressed and the project became
> larger. Initial plans were of wide boulevards. Sixth street and
> Kilbourn were the first streets widened as "expressways".
>
> Yance
> www.oldmilwaukee.net
>
> In Milwaukee, adjacQuoting Gary Schnabl <gSchnabl at SWDetroit.com>:
>
>> 1936 slum photo (from the Wikipedia files)
>> <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Slums_in_milwaukee_1936.png>
>> Reading some old archival information about the earliest freeway
>> commission during the middle to late 1940s, I learned that Milwaukee's
>> E-W freeway was to be centered along Highland, which they considered to
>> be a slum or such. However, as soon as Hibernia became available in the
>> early 1950s, the commission quickly labeled that street as a slum too
>> (probably to condemn its land much easier).
>>
>> I only started driving around 1960, and living at 42nd and Capitol (or
>> 157th and Burleigh), before that time I did not frequent the Highland
>> Street area much because of having few reasons to go near or through
>> there. During my two years attending Marquette during 1961 to 1963, I
>> would often park my car in or nearby the Hibernia area (or wherever I
>> might locate an available spot...) and never considered Hibernia to be
>> slummy--just older houses and such. My only concept of a real Milwaukee
>> slum then was the short  rat-infested area along or near Winnebago (a
>> couple blocks north of Highland), especially when I made pickups and
>> deliveries there for our family business as a teenager.
>>
>> I assume that the freeway commission in the 1940s chose the
>> worst-housing area for their proposed E-W freeway. Was Highland really
>> that bad (or Hibernia too, for that matter)? Was Wikipedia's stock photo
>> representative of that area? Or was Highland chosen so that the freeway
>> would take advantage of other terrain features without endangering
>> nearby business, before the rapid-transit ROW became available?
>>
>>
>> Gary
>>
>>
>> --
>>
>> Gary Schnabl
>> Southwest Detroit, two miles NORTH! of Canada--Windsor, that is...
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
> 



From gSchnabl at SWDetroit.com  Sun Nov  7 18:28:13 2010
From: gSchnabl at SWDetroit.com (Gary Schnabl)
Date: Sun, 07 Nov 2010 18:28:13 -0500
Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: Milwaukee slums during the 1940s and
 afterward
In-Reply-To: <20101107080642.15865r59cy0pm3k0@horde.oldmilwaukee.net>
References: <4CD5D26C.2010105@SWDetroit.com> <20101107080642.15865r59cy0pm3k0@horde.oldmilwaukee.net>
Message-ID: <4CD7360D.8070101@SWDetroit.com>

On 11/7/2010 8:06 AM, Y Marti wrote:
> Gary,
>
> First off, the photo is not wikipedia's. It is a huge collection that
> the Library of Congress has. Photographer Carl Mydans took quite a few
> in Milwaukee during that time as can be seen here:
>
> http://www.loc.gov/pictures/search/?q=mydans%20milwaukee
>
> At that time there were many slums around downtown. One of the worst
> was around Walnut and 6th street which was the reason for the push
> towards the Hillside Terrace projects. Another slum was the third ward
> area from Michigan to St. Paul which was eventually cleared in the
> late 1950s. In the early 1940s the courthouse area was cleared because
> the City didn't want that slum in the shadow of the courthouse. The
> same was done around city Hall around the same time.
>
> One of the earliest and most dangerous slums was downtown area, west
> of the river and north of Wisconsin Ave. In the late 1800s and early
> 1900s this area was filled with gambling dens, opium dens, and
> flophouses. The most dangerous "tenderloin district" was on the near
> south side around 2nd&  Greenfield. Police on beat had to travel in
> pairs and even then they rarely patrolled the area.
>
> The freeway location changed as time progressed and the project became
> larger. Initial plans were of wide boulevards. Sixth street and
> Kilbourn were the first streets widened as "expressways".
>
> Yance
> www.oldmilwaukee.net
Did Marquette own most of those houses on Hibernia and nearby during the 
1950s? They were buying all kinds of properties near its campus, razing 
some elegant mansions in the process.

Marquette had mandatory phy-ed for freshmen when I attended, and bowling 
twice weekly at Gesu school (eight or so "pinboy" lanes in its basement) 
was an alternative "class." Gesu school also had open bowling, real 
cheap as a fundsraiser, taking advantage of the several students who 
liked to bowl and eat there regularly.

I noticed that Gesu parish had a significant Mexican congregation at 
that time and lived near Hibernia. BTW, Gesu sold hot dogs for a quarter 
and brats for 35 cents or so and sold hundreds of them from a Nesco or 
two there daily for a few hours around lunchtime during 1961 and 1962. 
Sure beat the cafeteria at the student union...
-- 

Gary Schnabl
Southwest Detroit, two miles NORTH! of Canada--Windsor, that is...






From gSchnabl at SWDetroit.com  Sun Nov  7 20:21:56 2010
From: gSchnabl at SWDetroit.com (Gary Schnabl)
Date: Sun, 07 Nov 2010 20:21:56 -0500
Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Some 1936 photos
Message-ID: <4CD750B4.40100@SWDetroit.com>

This photo (west of 35th Street) shows the ROW's towers quite well: 
(http://www.loc.gov/pictures/resource/fsa.8b28618/).
This photo of the Interurban ROW contains an erroneous caption that says 
it is CNW's ROW instead... 
(http://www.loc.gov/pictures/resource/fsa.8b28625/).

Pigsville with the Wells trestle 
(http://www.loc.gov/pictures/resource/fsa.8b28628/). Its housing looked 
much this this some 22 years afterward, coming home from MUHS.

Could this be Hibernia 
(http://www.loc.gov/pictures/resource/fsa.8b28642/) and 
(http://www.loc.gov/pictures/resource/fsa.8b28643/)?

Another photo of Hibernia, but with an erroneous caption 
(http://www.loc.gov/pictures/resource/fsa.8b28645/).

Yet another shot of Hibernia 
(http://www.loc.gov/pictures/resource/fsa.8b28648/).

This is ground zero to what I thought was the worst slum left around 
1960, but it seemed nice during 1936. 
(http://www.loc.gov/pictures/resource/fsa.8b28650/).
-- 

Gary Schnabl
Southwest Detroit, two miles NORTH! of Canada--Windsor, that is...





From DLeistikow at webtv.net  Sun Nov  7 15:38:59 2010
From: DLeistikow at webtv.net (Don L. Leistikow)
Date: Sun, 7 Nov 2010 14:38:59 -0600
Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: Milwaukee slums during the 1940s and
	afterward
In-Reply-To: Gary Schnabl <gSchnabl@SWDetroit.com>'s message of Sun, 07 Nov
	2010 12:47:49 -0500
Message-ID: <18900-4CD70E63-8050@storefull-3172.bay.webtv.net>

Gary S and list:   If not for the National Avenue Cornfield Meet in
September of 1950, there may have been a chance for Speedrail to
survive.                                 

Two things come to mind.... ridership was strong in rush-hour service.
Aside from the abnormal capacity of the 'Duplex' trains, some trips left
the 'Building' with standing room only, loads.  Waukesha Limited duplex
trains left first, followed by a WJ duplex and then, on its heels, an HC
local with seated capacity, following.         

On the other hand, service throughout the day and evening, was too
frequent for the handful of passengers, mostly shoppers, to break even.
There was just not enough patronage to substaintialte the frequent
service.  Hourly headways would have been sufficient.                                 

After the accident, ridership on the HC line, was literally cut in half.
Ridership on the Waukesha line, remained strong, most likely due to the
fact that it was all double tracked.  A great feeling of safety, in that
thought.                                                    

As for the line remaining in place with a Freeway alongside..... really
questionable. The Planners wanted the prow between downtown and 28th
street, for their construction purposes.  Certainly, it was cheaper to
build on that prow, than to condemn other real-estate in the Valley.    

Politics demanded the RTL be retired.       

Don L.     



From gSchnabl at SWDetroit.com  Mon Nov  8 18:50:09 2010
From: gSchnabl at SWDetroit.com (Gary Schnabl)
Date: Mon, 08 Nov 2010 18:50:09 -0500
Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: Milwaukee slums during the 1940s and
 afterward
In-Reply-To: <18900-4CD70E63-8050@storefull-3172.bay.webtv.net>
References: <18900-4CD70E63-8050@storefull-3172.bay.webtv.net>
Message-ID: <4CD88CB1.1020304@SWDetroit.com>

On 11/7/2010 3:38 PM, Don L. Leistikow wrote:
> Gary S and list:   If not for the National Avenue Cornfield Meet in
> September of 1950, there may have been a chance for Speedrail to
> survive.
>
> Two things come to mind.... ridership was strong in rush-hour service.
> Aside from the abnormal capacity of the 'Duplex' trains, some trips left
> the 'Building' with standing room only, loads.  Waukesha Limited duplex
> trains left first, followed by a WJ duplex and then, on its heels, an HC
> local with seated capacity, following.
>
> On the other hand, service throughout the day and evening, was too
> frequent for the handful of passengers, mostly shoppers, to break even.
> There was just not enough patronage to substaintialte the frequent
> service.  Hourly headways would have been sufficient.
>
> After the accident, ridership on the HC line, was literally cut in half.
> Ridership on the Waukesha line, remained strong, most likely due to the
> fact that it was all double tracked.  A great feeling of safety, in that
> thought.
>
> As for the line remaining in place with a Freeway alongside..... really
> questionable. The Planners wanted the prow between downtown and 28th
> street, for their construction purposes.  Certainly, it was cheaper to
> build on that prow, than to condemn other real-estate in the Valley.
>
> Politics demanded the RTL be retired.
>
> Don L.
How come there never was any effective block signals or other mechanisms 
for not allowing two cars on the HC line simultaneously--without being 
overridden manually? Railroads had installed adequate interlocking 
switches and signals several decades before 1950...

Besides, in 1950, two-way radios were not that rare or expensive. I was 
a radio amateur since my grade-school days (1957), using mostly 
inexpensive WW2 or Korean-war equipment for receivers and 
transmitters--modified the shortwave gear that the B-17 bombers used 
(for higher power and better operation)..

How did the operation keep in touch with the utility cars on active 
tracks? I would tend to agree that the ill-fated 1950 accident was 
bordering on negligent, criminal activity. Too bad... Otherwise, the RTL 
would have been able to purchase insurance and maybe be solvent for 
another decade or so.
-- 

Gary Schnabl
Southwest Detroit, two miles NORTH! of Canada--Windsor, that is...





From sbgreig_m1 at yahoo.com  Mon Nov  8 22:53:12 2010
From: sbgreig_m1 at yahoo.com (Scott Greig)
Date: Mon, 8 Nov 2010 19:53:12 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: Milwaukee slums during the 1940s and afterward
Message-ID: <391303.68257.qm@web120712.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>

--- On Mon, 11/8/10, Gary Schnabl <gSchnabl at SWDetroit.com> wrote:
>How come there never was any effective block signals or other mechanisms 
>for not allowing two cars on the HC line simultaneously--without being 
>overridden manually? Railroads had installed adequate interlocking 
>switches and signals several decades before 1950...
It's important to remember that, once off the Rapid Transit Line or M-R-K, TMER&L was essentially a 1916 interurban in terms of technology.? The signals weren't upgraded beyond Nachods on much of the system because, for the level and nature of service operated, they worked fine.? Plus, TMER&L imposed a strict system of training on their operating personnel and followed it with strong oversight, so that it all worked.? And after TMER&L made the decision to get out of the transportation business in 1934-35, they weren't about to make the capital investment in upgrading signal systems on lines they planned to abandon anyway.

After looking at all the published details of the Labor Day wreck, I've concluded that the failure that day was far more of a human one than a mechanical one.? TMER&L ran a high-pressure system that, in typical Germanic thinking, worked like a Swiss watch as long as all variables were under control.? What they never anticipated was that somebody without the proper training and mindset, but with authority that overrode all else (i.e. the owner), would be introduced into the system.

>Besides, in 1950, two-way radios were not that rare or expensive. I was 
>a radio amateur since my grade-school days (1957), using mostly 
>inexpensive WW2 or Korean-war equipment for receivers and 
>transmitters--modified the shortwave gear that the B-17 bombers used 
>(for higher power and better operation)..

Ed Tennyson made mention of some test use of a Trainphone apparatus...but was that really necessary?? The line ran primarily off the employee timetable/headway sheet and/or train orders, and there were mandatory call-in points at key intersections like West Junction.? As long as the system TMER&L had developed over years of service was understood and followed, all would work.

Also, remember that Maeder had very little money to work with.? He had been sold the line for $100 plus court costs, but on the condition that he take on all the liabilities from the Labor Day wreck of August 1949, so he started business off in the red.? KMCL/Greyhound knew that he wanted the line, and made it clear that this was the only way they'd sell it to him.? Tennyson had advanced Maeder money on a couple of occasions for useful purchases (like the 60-series curvesiders), but because of the rift between them Maeder often did not let on to Tennyson what he had in mind.

>How did the operation keep in touch with the utility cars on active 
>tracks? I would tend to agree that the ill-fated 1950 accident was 
>bordering on negligent, criminal activity. Too bad... Otherwise, the RTL 
>would have been able to purchase insurance and maybe be solvent for 
>another decade or so.

They operated on train orders, were expected to keep track of the regular timetable and know where they were in the mix, and they were to call the dispatcher otherwise for orders and clearances.? It was all a matter of understanding the system and following it...and on September 2, 1950, it wasn't.

> As for the line remaining in place with a Freeway alongside..... really
> questionable. The Planners wanted the prow between downtown and 28th
> street, for their construction purposes.? Certainly, it was cheaper to
> build on that prow, than to condemn other real-estate in the Valley.
>
> Politics demanded the RTL be retired.

I agree completely...as owner of the right-of-way, WEPCo was the ultimate arbiter of the Rapid Transit Line's fate.? I'm sure they would have been happy to get non-transmission-line property off their books and an "interloper" off their hands...even without the Labor Day wreck, who knows what might have happened if WEPCo received a suitable offer for the Rapid Transit Line's right-of-way from the highway commission.

Scott.




From gSchnabl at SWDetroit.com  Tue Nov  9 00:31:10 2010
From: gSchnabl at SWDetroit.com (Gary Schnabl)
Date: Tue, 09 Nov 2010 00:31:10 -0500
Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: Milwaukee slums during the 1940s and
 afterward
In-Reply-To: <391303.68257.qm@web120712.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
References: <391303.68257.qm@web120712.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <4CD8DC9E.6090807@SWDetroit.com>

On 11/8/2010 10:53 PM, Scott Greig wrote:
> --- On Mon, 11/8/10, Gary Schnabl<gSchnabl at SWDetroit.com>  wrote:
>> How come there never was any effective block signals or other mechanisms
>> for not allowing two cars on the HC line simultaneously--without being
>> overridden manually? Railroads had installed adequate interlocking
>> switches and signals several decades before 1950...
> It's important to remember that, once off the Rapid Transit Line or M-R-K, TMER&L was essentially a 1916 interurban in terms of technology.  The signals weren't upgraded beyond Nachods on much of the system because, for the level and nature of service operated, they worked fine.  Plus, TMER&L imposed a strict system of training on their operating personnel and followed it with strong oversight, so that it all worked.  And after TMER&L made the decision to get out of the transportation business in 1934-35, they weren't about to make the capital investment in upgrading signal systems on lines they planned to abandon anyway.
>
> After looking at all the published details of the Labor Day wreck, I've concluded that the failure that day was far more of a human one than a mechanical one.  TMER&L ran a high-pressure system that, in typical Germanic thinking, worked like a Swiss watch as long as all variables were under control.  What they never anticipated was that somebody without the proper training and mindset, but with authority that overrode all else (i.e. the owner), would be introduced into the system.
>
>> Besides, in 1950, two-way radios were not that rare or expensive. I was
>> a radio amateur since my grade-school days (1957), using mostly
>> inexpensive WW2 or Korean-war equipment for receivers and
>> transmitters--modified the shortwave gear that the B-17 bombers used
>> (for higher power and better operation)..
> Ed Tennyson made mention of some test use of a Trainphone apparatus...but was that really necessary?  The line ran primarily off the employee timetable/headway sheet and/or train orders, and there were mandatory call-in points at key intersections like West Junction.  As long as the system TMER&L had developed over years of service was understood and followed, all would work.
>
> Also, remember that Maeder had very little money to work with.  He had been sold the line for $100 plus court costs, but on the condition that he take on all the liabilities from the Labor Day wreck of August 1949, so he started business off in the red.  KMCL/Greyhound knew that he wanted the line, and made it clear that this was the only way they'd sell it to him.  Tennyson had advanced Maeder money on a couple of occasions for useful purchases (like the 60-series curvesiders), but because of the rift between them Maeder often did not let on to Tennyson what he had in mind.
>
>> How did the operation keep in touch with the utility cars on active
>> tracks? I would tend to agree that the ill-fated 1950 accident was
>> bordering on negligent, criminal activity. Too bad... Otherwise, the RTL
>> would have been able to purchase insurance and maybe be solvent for
>> another decade or so.
> They operated on train orders, were expected to keep track of the regular timetable and know where they were in the mix, and they were to call the dispatcher otherwise for orders and clearances.  It was all a matter of understanding the system and following it...and on September 2, 1950, it wasn't.
>
>> As for the line remaining in place with a Freeway alongside..... really
>> questionable. The Planners wanted the prow between downtown and 28th
>> street, for their construction purposes.  Certainly, it was cheaper to
>> build on that prow, than to condemn other real-estate in the Valley.
>>
>> Politics demanded the RTL be retired.
> I agree completely...as owner of the right-of-way, WEPCo was the ultimate arbiter of the Rapid Transit Line's fate.  I'm sure they would have been happy to get non-transmission-line property off their books and an "interloper" off their hands...even without the Labor Day wreck, who knows what might have happened if WEPCo received a suitable offer for the Rapid Transit Line's right-of-way from the highway commission.
>
> Scott.
What you described is a system that was designed and operated with about 
zero redundancy--much like the Interstate bridge that failed in 
Minneapolis that had a basic truss design without redundancy, as many 
older bridges had. One critical member fails, and the whole system comes 
down. Many aircraft functions have triple (sometimes even higher) 
redundancy.

Besides, dispatchers can fall asleep too on the job from time to time if 
the job is essentially that of a Maytag repairman. In case a car needed 
to stop rapidly, how much distance would be required at normal operating 
speeds? Was that part of the HC line pretty much obscured or whatever in 
visibility?


-- 

Gary Schnabl
Southwest Detroit, two miles NORTH! of Canada--Windsor, that is...





From DLeistikow at webtv.net  Mon Nov  8 23:07:15 2010
From: DLeistikow at webtv.net (Don L. Leistikow)
Date: Mon, 8 Nov 2010 22:07:15 -0600
Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: Milwaukee slums during the 1940s and
	afterward
In-Reply-To: Gary Schnabl <gSchnabl@SWDetroit.com>'s message of Mon, 08 Nov
	2010 18:50:09 -0500
Message-ID: <4037-4CD8C8F3-4498@storefull-3171.bay.webtv.net>

Gary S and list:   You've a lot of catching up to do.   Books and
magizine articles have explained the mechanics of TMER&L's Rapid Transit
Lines.                 

Briefly, Tackage Rights were held by schedules.  Any crew retained those
Rights for up to, five minutes later than the scheduled time.  Being
later than that, required the crew to 'phone-in', on Company private
phone lines. strung along the tracks.  All other (Extra) trains, were
required to obtain 'Train Orders' from the Dispatcher, located in the
PSB Terminal in Milwaukee.                             

Early On.....  The then popular Nachod Signal Company of Louisville, set
up their White and Red illuminated signals, to provide additional
protection on single track lines.  These were not Block Signals but,
were Permissive or Stop signal aspects.                                                    

This system was in place between passing sidings, which were 'Home Free'
spaces.  Company phones were installed at each and every, Siding.  For
the record, these Nachod Signals could hold 12 counts meaning.... that
following cars could enter a WHITE permissinve signal block by counting
in... and then as each car was counted out at the next Siding,  no cars
waiting in said Siding, could enter in the opposiite direction, until
all opposing counts were satisfied.                            

When no cars were in the single track block, the Nachod Signals were
DARK, at both ends.                                                

Such, was the setting, on the day of teh most horrible accident.
Neither train saw the other as they met on a reverse and elevated curve,
centered on National Avenue, former STH 15.                            

As that date was my day off, 9/2/50... I hurried out there to observe
the situation.  From the Greenfield Avenue bridge over the mainline
double tracks, I could see the first Nachod Signal, just past the West
Junction landing, where the single track HC line began.  It was WHITE.
That meant that the companion opposing signal at Oklahoma Siding.... was
RED.                  

After the accident was cleaned up, various persons of knowledge were on
hand to test the Nachod Signals.  They were found to be.... in perfect
working order.      

Not generally known, is that when a car enters a RED Nachod Block... a
count must be entered.  Physically, the RED aspect will drop out, a
WHITE aspect will appear as the count was recorded.  Then the WHITE
aspect will drop out and the former RED aspect... will return.               

Testimony in Court, substanciated a WHITE aspect was observed.  True,
but that WHITE did not stay lit. It dropped out. 

Speedrail, did have insurance, expensive, as it was.                                                  

Don L. Leistikow, Speedrail Badge 9



From gSchnabl at SWDetroit.com  Tue Nov  9 07:10:51 2010
From: gSchnabl at SWDetroit.com (Gary Schnabl)
Date: Tue, 09 Nov 2010 07:10:51 -0500
Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: Milwaukee slums during the 1940s and
 afterward
In-Reply-To: <4037-4CD8C8F3-4498@storefull-3171.bay.webtv.net>
References: <4037-4CD8C8F3-4498@storefull-3171.bay.webtv.net>
Message-ID: <4CD93A4B.4040200@SWDetroit.com>

On 11/8/2010 11:07 PM, Don L. Leistikow wrote:
> Gary S and list:   You've a lot of catching up to do.   Books and
> magizine articles have explained the mechanics of TMER&L's Rapid Transit
> Lines.
>
> Briefly, Tackage Rights were held by schedules.  Any crew retained those
> Rights for up to, five minutes later than the scheduled time.  Being
> later than that, required the crew to 'phone-in', on Company private
> phone lines. strung along the tracks.  All other (Extra) trains, were
> required to obtain 'Train Orders' from the Dispatcher, located in the
> PSB Terminal in Milwaukee.
>
> Early On.....  The then popular Nachod Signal Company of Louisville, set
> up their White and Red illuminated signals, to provide additional
> protection on single track lines.  These were not Block Signals but,
> were Permissive or Stop signal aspects.
>
> This system was in place between passing sidings, which were 'Home Free'
> spaces.  Company phones were installed at each and every, Siding.  For
> the record, these Nachod Signals could hold 12 counts meaning.... that
> following cars could enter a WHITE permissinve signal block by counting
> in... and then as each car was counted out at the next Siding,  no cars
> waiting in said Siding, could enter in the opposiite direction, until
> all opposing counts were satisfied.
>
> When no cars were in the single track block, the Nachod Signals were
> DARK, at both ends.
>
> Such, was the setting, on the day of teh most horrible accident.
> Neither train saw the other as they met on a reverse and elevated curve,
> centered on National Avenue, former STH 15.
>
> As that date was my day off, 9/2/50... I hurried out there to observe
> the situation.  From the Greenfield Avenue bridge over the mainline
> double tracks, I could see the first Nachod Signal, just past the West
> Junction landing, where the single track HC line began.  It was WHITE.
> That meant that the companion opposing signal at Oklahoma Siding.... was
> RED.
>
> After the accident was cleaned up, various persons of knowledge were on
> hand to test the Nachod Signals.  They were found to be.... in perfect
> working order.
>
> Not generally known, is that when a car enters a RED Nachod Block... a
> count must be entered.  Physically, the RED aspect will drop out, a
> WHITE aspect will appear as the count was recorded.  Then the WHITE
> aspect will drop out and the former RED aspect... will return.
>
> Testimony in Court, substanciated a WHITE aspect was observed.  True,
> but that WHITE did not stay lit. It dropped out.
>
> Speedrail, did have insurance, expensive, as it was.
>
> Don L. Leistikow, Speedrail Badge 9
Regarding the accident: How come the engineer/motorman blew the block 
signal(s)? Was there just one signal that was blown that day?

One would think that the motorman would be even more careful than usual 
when the owner was present. Or was the owner merely another distraction 
up front?
-- 

Gary Schnabl
Southwest Detroit, two miles NORTH! of Canada--Windsor, that is...





From sbgreig_m1 at yahoo.com  Tue Nov  9 09:31:12 2010
From: sbgreig_m1 at yahoo.com (Scott Greig)
Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2010 06:31:12 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: Milwaukee slums during the 1940s and afterward
In-Reply-To: <4CD93A4B.4040200@SWDetroit.com>
Message-ID: <930048.51551.qm@web120702.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>

In this case, the owner WAS the motorman.  Maeder was a longtime trolley fan who enjoyed periodically operating trains on "HIS" railroad.  However, I don't believe that he had ever gone through a proper training and instruction program like TMER&L (and TMER&T) had used.

After years of studying the events of the day, my conclusion is that, at some point after speaking with Tennyson at Brookdale Siding (where he was trying to sort out the seriously-delayed NMRA specials) Maeder got an idea in his head that if he could catch all the signals just right, and get up to West Junction before LeRoy Equitz came south with the next charter train, he could make up his lost time coming back downtown.  

To me it was very telling that Maeder violated his own operating rules (as well as the orders he had imposed on the charter trains that morning) by telling John Heberling to let him through at Oklahoma Avenue.  I suspect that his mind was focused on getting ahead to the Junction, and that he either never looked at the signal, or looked at it and "saw" what he was hoping to see.  

Scott.

--- On Tue, 11/9/10, Gary Schnabl <gSchnabl at SWDetroit.com> wrote:

> From: Gary Schnabl <gSchnabl at SWDetroit.com>
> Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: Milwaukee slums during the 1940s and afterward
> To: milwaukee-electric at lists.dementia.org
> Date: Tuesday, November 9, 2010, 6:10 AM
> On 11/8/2010 11:07 PM, Don L.
> Leistikow wrote:
> > Gary S and list:???You've a lot of
> catching up to do.???Books and
> > magizine articles have explained the mechanics of
> TMER&L's Rapid Transit
> > Lines.
> >
> > Briefly, Tackage Rights were held by schedules.?
> Any crew retained those
> > Rights for up to, five minutes later than the
> scheduled time.? Being
> > later than that, required the crew to 'phone-in', on
> Company private
> > phone lines. strung along the tracks.? All other
> (Extra) trains, were
> > required to obtain 'Train Orders' from the Dispatcher,
> located in the
> > PSB Terminal in Milwaukee.
> >
> > Early On.....? The then popular Nachod Signal
> Company of Louisville, set
> > up their White and Red illuminated signals, to provide
> additional
> > protection on single track lines.? These were not
> Block Signals but,
> > were Permissive or Stop signal aspects.
> >
> > This system was in place between passing sidings,
> which were 'Home Free'
> > spaces.? Company phones were installed at each
> and every, Siding.? For
> > the record, these Nachod Signals could hold 12 counts
> meaning.... that
> > following cars could enter a WHITE permissinve signal
> block by counting
> > in... and then as each car was counted out at the next
> Siding,? no cars
> > waiting in said Siding, could enter in the opposiite
> direction, until
> > all opposing counts were satisfied.
> >
> > When no cars were in the single track block, the
> Nachod Signals were
> > DARK, at both ends.
> >
> > Such, was the setting, on the day of teh most horrible
> accident.
> > Neither train saw the other as they met on a reverse
> and elevated curve,
> > centered on National Avenue, former STH 15.
> >
> > As that date was my day off, 9/2/50... I hurried out
> there to observe
> > the situation.? From the Greenfield Avenue bridge
> over the mainline
> > double tracks, I could see the first Nachod Signal,
> just past the West
> > Junction landing, where the single track HC line
> began.? It was WHITE.
> > That meant that the companion opposing signal at
> Oklahoma Siding.... was
> > RED.
> >
> > After the accident was cleaned up, various persons of
> knowledge were on
> > hand to test the Nachod Signals.? They were found
> to be.... in perfect
> > working order.
> >
> > Not generally known, is that when a car enters a RED
> Nachod Block... a
> > count must be entered.? Physically, the RED
> aspect will drop out, a
> > WHITE aspect will appear as the count was
> recorded.? Then the WHITE
> > aspect will drop out and the former RED aspect... will
> return.
> >
> > Testimony in Court, substanciated a WHITE aspect was
> observed.? True,
> > but that WHITE did not stay lit. It dropped out.
> >
> > Speedrail, did have insurance, expensive, as it was.
> >
> > Don L. Leistikow, Speedrail Badge 9
> Regarding the accident: How come the engineer/motorman blew
> the block 
> signal(s)? Was there just one signal that was blown that
> day?
> 
> One would think that the motorman would be even more
> careful than usual 
> when the owner was present. Or was the owner merely another
> distraction 
> up front?
> -- 
> 
> Gary Schnabl
> Southwest Detroit, two miles NORTH! of Canada--Windsor,
> that is...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 



From sunrise at bikethehoan.com  Mon Nov  8 22:49:57 2010
From: sunrise at bikethehoan.com (William Sell)
Date: Mon, 08 Nov 2010 21:49:57 -0600
Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: Milwaukee slums during the 1940s
  and afterward
In-Reply-To: <4CD88CB1.1020304@SWDetroit.com>
References: <18900-4CD70E63-8050@storefull-3172.bay.webtv.net>
 <4CD88CB1.1020304@SWDetroit.com>
Message-ID: <4cd96759.17a6650a.4388.44ba@mx.google.com>

Was it insurance or politics?

I was about 12 years old. But this is what I remember.

My recollection was the Mayor Zeidler tried to get a solution to save 
the Speedrail. I do not recall why that failed. But I do remember 
being told that the Speedrail could not get insurance - the 
suggestion being the recklessness of Jay Mader, the owner.  Of 
course, I was young and was probably hearing what grown ups around me 
wanted to hear. I did learn later what a star Mayor Zeidler was, and 
in contrast how he was hated in the burbs - probably because of his 
aggressive moving of Milwaukee's borders into the townships surrounding.

Bill






At 05:50 PM 11/8/2010, Gary Schnabl wrote:
>On 11/7/2010 3:38 PM, Don L. Leistikow wrote:
> > Gary S and list:   If not for the National Avenue Cornfield Meet in
> > September of 1950, there may have been a chance for Speedrail to
> > survive.
> >
> > Two things come to mind.... ridership was strong in rush-hour service.
> > Aside from the abnormal capacity of the 'Duplex' trains, some trips left
> > the 'Building' with standing room only, loads.  Waukesha Limited duplex
> > trains left first, followed by a WJ duplex and then, on its heels, an HC
> > local with seated capacity, following.
> >
> > On the other hand, service throughout the day and evening, was too
> > frequent for the handful of passengers, mostly shoppers, to break even.
> > There was just not enough patronage to substaintialte the frequent
> > service.  Hourly headways would have been sufficient.
> >
> > After the accident, ridership on the HC line, was literally cut in half.
> > Ridership on the Waukesha line, remained strong, most likely due to the
> > fact that it was all double tracked.  A great feeling of safety, in that
> > thought.
> >
> > As for the line remaining in place with a Freeway alongside..... really
> > questionable. The Planners wanted the prow between downtown and 28th
> > street, for their construction purposes.  Certainly, it was cheaper to
> > build on that prow, than to condemn other real-estate in the Valley.
> >
> > Politics demanded the RTL be retired.
> >
> > Don L.
>How come there never was any effective block signals or other mechanisms
>for not allowing two cars on the HC line simultaneously--without being
>overridden manually? Railroads had installed adequate interlocking
>switches and signals several decades before 1950...
>
>Besides, in 1950, two-way radios were not that rare or expensive. I was
>a radio amateur since my grade-school days (1957), using mostly
>inexpensive WW2 or Korean-war equipment for receivers and
>transmitters--modified the shortwave gear that the B-17 bombers used
>(for higher power and better operation)..
>
>How did the operation keep in touch with the utility cars on active
>tracks? I would tend to agree that the ill-fated 1950 accident was
>bordering on negligent, criminal activity. Too bad... Otherwise, the RTL
>would have been able to purchase insurance and maybe be solvent for
>another decade or so.
>--
>
>Gary Schnabl
>Southwest Detroit, two miles NORTH! of Canada--Windsor, that is...


             }><((( " > }><((( " >   }><((( " >    }><((( 
" >      }><((( " >        }><((( " >
   }><((( " >                 }><((( " > < " 
)))><{~~~~         }><((( " >      }><((( " >        }><((( " >
   }><((( " >    }><((( " >      }><((( " >  }><((( " >        }><((( 
" >    }><((( " > }><((( " >



From gSchnabl at SWDetroit.com  Tue Nov  9 11:47:54 2010
From: gSchnabl at SWDetroit.com (Gary Schnabl)
Date: Tue, 09 Nov 2010 11:47:54 -0500
Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: Milwaukee slums during the 1940s and
 afterward
In-Reply-To: <930048.51551.qm@web120702.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
References: <930048.51551.qm@web120702.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <4CD97B3A.1090709@SWDetroit.com>

On 11/9/2010 9:31 AM, Scott Greig wrote:
> In this case, the owner WAS the motorman.  Maeder was a longtime trolley fan who enjoyed periodically operating trains on "HIS" railroad.  However, I don't believe that he had ever gone through a proper training and instruction program like TMER&L (and TMER&T) had used.
>
> After years of studying the events of the day, my conclusion is that, at some point after speaking with Tennyson at Brookdale Siding (where he was trying to sort out the seriously-delayed NMRA specials) Maeder got an idea in his head that if he could catch all the signals just right, and get up to West Junction before LeRoy Equitz came south with the next charter train, he could make up his lost time coming back downtown.
>
> To me it was very telling that Maeder violated his own operating rules (as well as the orders he had imposed on the charter trains that morning) by telling John Heberling to let him through at Oklahoma Avenue.  I suspect that his mind was focused on getting ahead to the Junction, and that he either never looked at the signal, or looked at it and "saw" what he was hoping to see.
>
> Scott.
So, the account that Mader was thrown free from the car by some 
engineer/motorman (who unfortunately died...) was probably fictitious? 
What did the surviving passengers say about that?

It appears that two Labor Day holiday weekends were dark days for 
Speedrail. What was the accident of 1949 all about? Were there other 
less spectacular mishaps on Speedrail (near misses, etc.)?
-- 

Gary Schnabl
Southwest Detroit, two miles NORTH! of Canada--Windsor, that is...





From sbgreig_m1 at yahoo.com  Tue Nov  9 12:13:08 2010
From: sbgreig_m1 at yahoo.com (Scott Greig)
Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2010 09:13:08 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: Milwaukee slums during the 1940s and afterward
In-Reply-To: <4CD97B3A.1090709@SWDetroit.com>
Message-ID: <262019.83696.qm@web120719.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>

Maeder jumped (or was pushed when he froze in the doorway), then was followed by the assigned motorman and George Gloff, who was the last one to make it out before impact.  That's documented, both in court testimony from the wreck and an oral history of Gloff made years later.

The Soldier's Home wreck of 1949 was an entirely different series of events, and there were a couple of other notable collisions on Speedrail.  All of them had more to do with human error than mechanical failure.

--- On Tue, 11/9/10, Gary Schnabl <gSchnabl at SWDetroit.com> wrote:

> From: Gary Schnabl <gSchnabl at SWDetroit.com>
> Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: Milwaukee slums during the 1940s and afterward
> To: milwaukee-electric at lists.dementia.org
> Date: Tuesday, November 9, 2010, 10:47 AM
> On 11/9/2010 9:31 AM, Scott Greig
> wrote:
> > In this case, the owner WAS the motorman.? Maeder
> was a longtime trolley fan who enjoyed periodically
> operating trains on "HIS" railroad.? However, I don't
> believe that he had ever gone through a proper training and
> instruction program like TMER&L (and TMER&T) had
> used.
> >
> > After years of studying the events of the day, my
> conclusion is that, at some point after speaking with
> Tennyson at Brookdale Siding (where he was trying to sort
> out the seriously-delayed NMRA specials) Maeder got an idea
> in his head that if he could catch all the signals just
> right, and get up to West Junction before LeRoy Equitz came
> south with the next charter train, he could make up his lost
> time coming back downtown.
> >
> > To me it was very telling that Maeder violated his own
> operating rules (as well as the orders he had imposed on the
> charter trains that morning) by telling John Heberling to
> let him through at Oklahoma Avenue.? I suspect that his
> mind was focused on getting ahead to the Junction, and that
> he either never looked at the signal, or looked at it and
> "saw" what he was hoping to see.
> >
> > Scott.
> So, the account that Mader was thrown free from the car by
> some 
> engineer/motorman (who unfortunately died...) was probably
> fictitious? 
> What did the surviving passengers say about that?
> 
> It appears that two Labor Day holiday weekends were dark
> days for 
> Speedrail. What was the accident of 1949 all about? Were
> there other 
> less spectacular mishaps on Speedrail (near misses, etc.)?
> -- 
> 
> Gary Schnabl
> Southwest Detroit, two miles NORTH! of Canada--Windsor,
> that is...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 



From sbgreig_m1 at yahoo.com  Tue Nov  9 12:13:35 2010
From: sbgreig_m1 at yahoo.com (Scott Greig)
Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2010 09:13:35 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: Milwaukee slums during the 1940s and afterward
In-Reply-To: <4CD97B3A.1090709@SWDetroit.com>
Message-ID: <723642.691.qm@web120708.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>

Maeder jumped (or was pushed when he froze in the doorway), then was followed by the assigned motorman and George Gloff, who was the last one to make it out before impact.  That's documented, both in court testimony from the wreck and an oral history of Gloff made years later.

The Soldier's Home wreck of 1949 was an entirely different series of events, and there were a couple of other notable collisions on Speedrail.  All of them had more to do with human error than mechanical failure.

--- On Tue, 11/9/10, Gary Schnabl <gSchnabl at SWDetroit.com> wrote:

> From: Gary Schnabl <gSchnabl at SWDetroit.com>
> Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: Milwaukee slums during the 1940s and afterward
> To: milwaukee-electric at lists.dementia.org
> Date: Tuesday, November 9, 2010, 10:47 AM
> On 11/9/2010 9:31 AM, Scott Greig
> wrote:
> > In this case, the owner WAS the motorman.? Maeder
> was a longtime trolley fan who enjoyed periodically
> operating trains on "HIS" railroad.? However, I don't
> believe that he had ever gone through a proper training and
> instruction program like TMER&L (and TMER&T) had
> used.
> >
> > After years of studying the events of the day, my
> conclusion is that, at some point after speaking with
> Tennyson at Brookdale Siding (where he was trying to sort
> out the seriously-delayed NMRA specials) Maeder got an idea
> in his head that if he could catch all the signals just
> right, and get up to West Junction before LeRoy Equitz came
> south with the next charter train, he could make up his lost
> time coming back downtown.
> >
> > To me it was very telling that Maeder violated his own
> operating rules (as well as the orders he had imposed on the
> charter trains that morning) by telling John Heberling to
> let him through at Oklahoma Avenue.? I suspect that his
> mind was focused on getting ahead to the Junction, and that
> he either never looked at the signal, or looked at it and
> "saw" what he was hoping to see.
> >
> > Scott.
> So, the account that Mader was thrown free from the car by
> some 
> engineer/motorman (who unfortunately died...) was probably
> fictitious? 
> What did the surviving passengers say about that?
> 
> It appears that two Labor Day holiday weekends were dark
> days for 
> Speedrail. What was the accident of 1949 all about? Were
> there other 
> less spectacular mishaps on Speedrail (near misses, etc.)?
> -- 
> 
> Gary Schnabl
> Southwest Detroit, two miles NORTH! of Canada--Windsor,
> that is...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 



From gSchnabl at SWDetroit.com  Thu Nov 11 09:44:19 2010
From: gSchnabl at SWDetroit.com (Gary Schnabl)
Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2010 09:44:19 -0500
Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Waukesha route stops
Message-ID: <4CDC0143.6030404@SWDetroit.com>

Might as well ask a few other questions before I keep forgetting...
I believe that the Greyhound was losing something like $20,000 monthly 
on the Interurban. Was that figure accurate? If so, that's a shortfall 
of some $700 per day, on average.

Railroad-passenger ridership took a huge dip after WW2 nationwide and 
kept worsening afterward, so wouldn't that ridership drop also be felt 
for the interurbans? What could Speedrail do in order to increase 
ridership or cut its operating costs?

I was but eight years old when Speedrail folded, and the one and only 
time I ever saw their cars was the time my family drove my 18-year-old 
uncle (originally from Dearborn) to the Milwaukee Road depot in 1951 
after he lived with us for five years after his mother died in 1941. We 
went to the Public Service Building by accident, and I was impressed by 
the interurban cars running on the street. So, I never rode on the 
Interurban.

In 1965, at the age of 22, I became the chief engineer of Waukesha's 
AM/FM radio stations WAUK. They had their studios at 330 Wisconsin, and 
the transmitter site was a couple miles to the east, just north of 
Greenfield (Coral Drive back then), in the boggy area just south of the 
Nike site. If Speedrail were still in existence then, would it have a 
stop near the transmitter site, where I spent most of my time at WAUK? 
Or would I have to spot one of my three vehicles downtown and use that 
to commute to the other site?

Gary
-- 

Gary Schnabl
Southwest Detroit, two miles NORTH! of Canada--Windsor, that is...





From x779 at webtv.net  Thu Nov 11 10:54:59 2010
From: x779 at webtv.net (Louis Rugani)
Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2010 15:54:59 GMT
Subject: [milwaukee-electric] WAUK
Message-ID: <SNT113-DS41045580F464C0DABFC3C98320@phx.gbl>

Gary, did you know Dick Ginkowski at WAUK (radio name 'Dick Scott')?

=Lou=

~~~~~~~~~~ **-=\/=-** ~~~~~~~~~~

The opposite of bravery is not cowardice, but conformity.       Robert Anthony




From gSchnabl at SWDetroit.com  Thu Nov 11 16:15:05 2010
From: gSchnabl at SWDetroit.com (Gary Schnabl)
Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2010 16:15:05 -0500
Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: WAUK
In-Reply-To: <SNT113-DS41045580F464C0DABFC3C98320@phx.gbl>
References: <SNT113-DS41045580F464C0DABFC3C98320@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <4CDC5CD9.5080809@SWDetroit.com>

On 11/11/2010 10:54 AM, Louis Rugani wrote:
> Gary, did you know Dick Ginkowski at WAUK (radio name 'Dick Scott')?
>
> =Lou=
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~ **-=\/=-** ~~~~~~~~~~
>
> The opposite of bravery is not cowardice, but conformity.       Robert Anthony
There was a guy (Greg Pawlowski or such) that used some fake radio name. 
But, no, I do not remember any Dick Ginkowski.

Gary


-- 

Gary Schnabl
Southwest Detroit, two miles NORTH! of Canada--Windsor, that is...





From imbobman at netzero.net  Thu Nov 11 22:41:26 2010
From: imbobman at netzero.net (imbobman at netzero.net)
Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2010 03:41:26 GMT
Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: Waukesha route stops
Message-ID: <20101111.214126.26831.0@webmail10.vgs.untd.com>

Gary,
Regarding the last paragraph you wrote & asked about the stops of the Speedrail. 
I live near this area & know location of the old WAUK  transmitting tower well. 
The route where the line would have ran, paralleled the C & NW rail line. It eventually became an access rd. of Wis. Electric. & is now the New Berlin Recreation trail. 
Here's a low-resolution picture from a schedule someone was selling on Ebay a few years back. I believe the date on it is 1948. 
It appears 'Springdale Rd..' was the nearest stop. I don't know where the train went to then in Waukesha. Hope this is of some help. 
I recall reading in a book on the history of New Berlin, that many years back, before the line was known as Speedrail, when it was T.M.E.R.&L., there were a few different stops. (...one being 'Rocky Knoll'. )
If anyone has any more info or photos of this route, it would be great if you could post them or email me.  
Thanks! Regards, 
Bob York
 
---------- Original Message ----------
From: Gary Schnabl <gSchnabl at SWDetroit.com>
To: milwaukee-electric at lists.dementia.org
Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Waukesha route stops
Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2010 09:44:19 -0500

Might as well ask a few other questions before I keep forgetting...
I believe that the Greyhound was losing something like $20,000 monthly 
on the Interurban. Was that figure accurate? If so, that's a shortfall 
of some $700 per day, on average.

Railroad-passenger ridership took a huge dip after WW2 nationwide and 
kept worsening afterward, so wouldn't that ridership drop also be felt 
for the interurbans? What could Speedrail do in order to increase 
ridership or cut its operating costs?

I was but eight years old when Speedrail folded, and the one and only 
time I ever saw their cars was the time my family drove my 18-year-old 
uncle (originally from Dearborn) to the Milwaukee Road depot in 1951 
after he lived with us for five years after his mother died in 1941. We 
went to the Public Service Building by accident, and I was impressed by 
the interurban cars running on the street. So, I never rode on the 
Interurban.

In 1965, at the age of 22, I became the chief engineer of Waukesha's 
AM/FM radio stations WAUK. They had their studios at 330 Wisconsin, and 
the transmitter site was a couple miles to the east, just north of 
Greenfield (Coral Drive back then), in the boggy area just south of the 
Nike site. If Speedrail were still in existence then, would it have a 
stop near the transmitter site, where I spent most of my time at WAUK? 
Or would I have to spot one of my three vehicles downtown and use that 
to commute to the other site?

Gary
-- 

Gary Schnabl
Southwest Detroit, two miles NORTH! of Canada--Windsor, that is... 
____________________________________________________________
Scholarships for Moms
Grant Funding May Be Available to Those Who Qualify!
http://thirdpartyoffers.netzero.net/TGL3241/4cdcb788b28171cbd22st05vuc

-- Attached file removed by Ecartis and put at URL below --
-- Type: image/pjpeg
-- Desc: PTT speedrail- WAUK.jpg
-- Size: 23k (24548 bytes)
-- URL : http://lists.dementia.org/files/milwaukee-electric/PTT%20speedrail-%20WAUK.jpg




From DLeistikow at webtv.net  Wed Nov 17 01:04:44 2010
From: DLeistikow at webtv.net (Don L. Leistikow)
Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2010 00:04:44 -0600
Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: Milwaukee slums during the 1940s and
	afterward
In-Reply-To: Scott Greig <sbgreig_m1@yahoo.com>'s message of Sun, 7 Nov
	2010 00:20:40 -0700 (PDT)
Message-ID: <11341-4CE3707C-5175@storefull-3172.bay.webtv.net>

Scott G and list:    Your comment, back on 11/7, is nominomly correct.                   

I recall a photograph looking east on the private right of way at about
20th street, to which the Press had superimposed a concrete roadway with
automobiles on it.   IIRC, that was about 1945 and the doctored photo
appeared in the Milwaukee Journal.                                   

I'm sure that this photo has reappeared in various publications as
evidence in support of Freeway Construction.              

In defense of what we had...... I once rode west from the PSB to 68th
street, non-stop... in 7 minutes flat... and that included 6 blocks of
street running.  The year was 1940, and you cannot do that today!                                                          

A class operation, that was.  And remember:                                                                                                               

There is Nothing Free, about the Freeway 


Don L.    

 



From gSchnabl at SWDetroit.com  Wed Nov 17 05:38:10 2010
From: gSchnabl at SWDetroit.com (Gary Schnabl)
Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2010 05:38:10 -0500
Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: Milwaukee slums during the 1940s and
 afterward
In-Reply-To: <11341-4CE3707C-5175@storefull-3172.bay.webtv.net>
References: <11341-4CE3707C-5175@storefull-3172.bay.webtv.net>
Message-ID: <4CE3B092.5000104@SWDetroit.com>

On 11/17/2010 1:04 AM, Don L. Leistikow wrote:
> Scott G and list:    Your comment, back on 11/7, is nominomly correct.
>
> I recall a photograph looking east on the private right of way at about
> 20th street, to which the Press had superimposed a concrete roadway with
> automobiles on it.   IIRC, that was about 1945 and the doctored photo
> appeared in the Milwaukee Journal.
>
> I'm sure that this photo has reappeared in various publications as
> evidence in support of Freeway Construction.
>
> In defense of what we had...... I once rode west from the PSB to 68th
> street, non-stop... in 7 minutes flat... and that included 6 blocks of
> street running.  The year was 1940, and you cannot do that today!
>
> A class operation, that was.  And remember:
>
> There is Nothing Free, about the Freeway
>
>
> Don L.
At sixteen E-W blocks per mile, the PROW segment of that 7-minute run 
would have been 60 blocks or so (not accounting for "bend 
allowance"...), or just under four miles.

Is the manual about the Nachod signals that you copied from the 
Speedrail operations manual available?
-- 

Gary Schnabl
Southwest Detroit, two miles NORTH! of Canada--Windsor, that is...





From ktjosephson at embarqmail.com  Sun Nov 21 02:08:12 2010
From: ktjosephson at embarqmail.com (Ken and Tracie)
Date: Sat, 20 Nov 2010 23:08:12 -0800
Subject: [milwaukee-electric] County Stadium, 1954
Message-ID: <CE328D9A0E4E4EC2A9491D0013FC16CB@KTJosephson>




-- Attached file removed by Ecartis and put at URL below --
-- Type: image/jpeg
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-- URL : http://lists.dementia.org/files/milwaukee-electric/countystadium0001.jpg




From ktjosephson at embarqmail.com  Sun Nov 21 04:12:39 2010
From: ktjosephson at embarqmail.com (Ken and Tracie)
Date: Sun, 21 Nov 2010 01:12:39 -0800
Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Extra Wires
References: <CE328D9A0E4E4EC2A9491D0013FC16CB@KTJosephson>
Message-ID: <278BF150470742B2A5AA8053DF927D8E@KTJosephson>

I believe this is South 16th Street, looking northbound towards the viaduct. 
If you study the trackless trolley overhead, you will notice, on the east 
side of the street, two smaller gauge wires, suspended from the span wires, 
between the streetlight pole and the strain insulator. I wonder what they 
are?
The feeder cables are strung from insulators mounted to the poles by hook 
shaped bracket pins and the streetlights are the type feed by underground 
circuits. I remember Milwaukee using above ground streetlighting circuits, 
but those were usually used with wooden pole construction, and almost always 
were accompanied by small transformers at each light.  Besides, I do not see 
the wires feeding the streetlight on the right.

I am wondering if this might be a circuit tied in with the contact wires, to 
trip the traffic signals at National Avenue. I know the 60th & Vliet Street 
loop had some sort of contact on the trackless trolley overhead. Not sure if 
that was for traffic signal control or a dispatching communication device. 
Pittsburgh's 42/38 streetcar line had trolley pole activated traffic signals 
at both the Mount Lebanon loop and the also where the car line left 
Washington Road for private right of way prior to the line being placed into 
a subway under Washington Road.

Any ideas?

K. 


-- Attached file removed by Ecartis and put at URL below --
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From DLeistikow at webtv.net  Sun Nov 21 10:25:25 2010
From: DLeistikow at webtv.net (Don L. Leistikow)
Date: Sun, 21 Nov 2010 09:25:25 -0600
Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: Extra Wires
In-Reply-To: "Ken and Tracie" <ktjosephson@embarqmail.com>'s message of Sun, 21 Nov 2010 01:12:39 -0800
Message-ID: <15555-4CE939E5-633@storefull-3172.bay.webtv.net>

Ken:   This distant shot was probably taken from National Avenue,
looking north as you already perceived.                          

The clues are really limited to the Water Tower and Chimney's in the
distant background.  The descending roadway is another clue as this the
only area that fits this photo.  The 35th, 27th and 6th Street Viaducts,
don't match this photo.  As I very seldom traveled over the 16th Street
Viaduct, I am really not that familiar with the Viaduct area.                                       

I believe that your conclusion, is correct.    

Don L.     



From sunrise at bikethehoan.com  Sun Nov 21 11:14:40 2010
From: sunrise at bikethehoan.com (William Sell)
Date: Sun, 21 Nov 2010 10:14:40 -0600
Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: County Stadium, 1954
In-Reply-To: <CE328D9A0E4E4EC2A9491D0013FC16CB@KTJosephson>
References: <CE328D9A0E4E4EC2A9491D0013FC16CB@KTJosephson>
Message-ID: <4ce94556.9c7bdc0a.733b.67de@mx.google.com>

Is that a cut through the elevated interurban rail line?


At 01:08 AM 11/21/2010, you wrote:
>Content-Type: text/plain;
>         charset="iso-8859-1"
>Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
>This photo ought to spark some conversation:
>
>
>
>
>-- Attached file removed by Ecartis and put at URL below --
>-- Type: image/jpeg
>-- Size: 235k (240783 bytes)
>-- URL : 
>http://lists.dementia.org/files/milwaukee-electric/countystadium0001.jpg


             }><((( " > }><((( " >   }><((( " >    }><((( 
" >      }><((( " >        }><((( " >
   }><((( " >                 }><((( " > < " 
)))><{~~~~         }><((( " >      }><((( " >        }><((( " >
   }><((( " >    }><((( " >      }><((( " >  }><((( " >        }><((( 
" >    }><((( " > }><((( " >




From sunrise at bikethehoan.com  Sun Nov 21 11:25:34 2010
From: sunrise at bikethehoan.com (William Sell)
Date: Sun, 21 Nov 2010 10:25:34 -0600
Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: Extra Wires
In-Reply-To: <278BF150470742B2A5AA8053DF927D8E@KTJosephson>
References: <CE328D9A0E4E4EC2A9491D0013FC16CB@KTJosephson>
 <278BF150470742B2A5AA8053DF927D8E@KTJosephson>
Message-ID: <4ce947e3.1e7ddc0a.1032.6e96@mx.google.com>

Perhaps they were meant as a bypass in case the main wires broke - 
the line would not go down entirely and the trolley could leave the scene.


At 03:12 AM 11/21/2010, you wrote:
>I believe this is South 16th Street, looking northbound towards the viaduct.
>If you study the trackless trolley overhead, you will notice, on the east
>side of the street, two smaller gauge wires, suspended from the span wires,
>between the streetlight pole and the strain insulator. I wonder what they
>are?
>The feeder cables are strung from insulators mounted to the poles by hook
>shaped bracket pins and the streetlights are the type feed by underground
>circuits. I remember Milwaukee using above ground streetlighting circuits,
>but those were usually used with wooden pole construction, and almost always
>were accompanied by small transformers at each light.  Besides, I do not see
>the wires feeding the streetlight on the right.
>
>I am wondering if this might be a circuit tied in with the contact wires, to
>trip the traffic signals at National Avenue. I know the 60th & Vliet Street
>loop had some sort of contact on the trackless trolley overhead. Not sure if
>that was for traffic signal control or a dispatching communication device.
>Pittsburgh's 42/38 streetcar line had trolley pole activated traffic signals
>at both the Mount Lebanon loop and the also where the car line left
>Washington Road for private right of way prior to the line being placed into
>a subway under Washington Road.
>
>Any ideas?
>
>K.
>
>
>-- Attached file removed by Ecartis and put at URL below --
>-- Type: image/jpeg
>-- Size: 106k (108746 bytes)
>-- URL : 
>http://lists.dementia.org/files/milwaukee-electric/milwaukeestreets001.jpg


             }><((( " > }><((( " >   }><((( " >    }><((( 
" >      }><((( " >        }><((( " >
   }><((( " >                 }><((( " > < " 
)))><{~~~~         }><((( " >      }><((( " >        }><((( " >
   }><((( " >    }><((( " >      }><((( " >  }><((( " >        }><((( 
" >    }><((( " > }><((( " >




From ktjosephson at embarqmail.com  Sun Nov 21 11:57:51 2010
From: ktjosephson at embarqmail.com (Ken and Tracie)
Date: Sun, 21 Nov 2010 08:57:51 -0800
Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: County Stadium, 1954
References: <CE328D9A0E4E4EC2A9491D0013FC16CB@KTJosephson> <4ce94556.9c7bdc0a.733b.67de@mx.google.com>
Message-ID: <67AEF4129B1A4A87A5342C2B37FB8414@KTJosephson>

Yes it is.

K.
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "William Sell" <sunrise at bikethehoan.com>
To: <milwaukee-electric at lists.dementia.org>
Sent: Sunday, November 21, 2010 8:14 AM
Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: County Stadium, 1954


> Is that a cut through the elevated interurban rail line?
> 
> 
> At 01:08 AM 11/21/2010, you wrote:
>>Content-Type: text/plain;
>>         charset="iso-8859-1"
>>Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
>>This photo ought to spark some conversation:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>-- Attached file removed by Ecartis and put at URL below --
>>-- Type: image/jpeg
>>-- Size: 235k (240783 bytes)
>>-- URL : 
>>http://lists.dementia.org/files/milwaukee-electric/countystadium0001.jpg
> 
> 
>             }><((( " > }><((( " >   }><((( " >    }><((( 
> " >      }><((( " >        }><((( " >
>   }><((( " >                 }><((( " > < " 
> )))><{~~~~         }><((( " >      }><((( " >        }><((( " >
>   }><((( " >    }><((( " >      }><((( " >  }><((( " >        }><((( 
> " >    }><((( " > }><((( " >
> 
> 
>


From DLeistikow at webtv.net  Sun Nov 21 14:53:14 2010
From: DLeistikow at webtv.net (Don L. Leistikow)
Date: Sun, 21 Nov 2010 13:53:14 -0600
Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: Extra Wires
In-Reply-To: William Sell <sunrise@bikethehoan.com>'s message of Sun, 21
	Nov 2010 10:25:34 -0600
Message-ID: <24465-4CE978AA-4650@storefull-3171.bay.webtv.net>

William S and list:   Not to be overlooked, is the Feeder Cable, which
was usually hung on Wooden Line Poles at the Curb.   

So, a Trolley Wire break coutd be tied off and, with Trolley Poles held
or hooked, the Car could be coasted through a Live Wire break.                                               

Way back in TWERHS Days, person or person's unknown, stole 800 feet of
overhead wire from Beulah Siding to about the top of the grade, close to
Stalh's Crossing.  Faced with an immediate need to operate, the L 10 was
stationed at Stahl's Crossing so-as-to-be available to reach down to any
car or train that may not coast uphill through the wireless stretch of
track.                                         

By substantially notching up, past the Series Points, into the upper
Parallel Points, on Horn Signal of end-of-wire, the Trolley Pole was
pulled and our North Shore cars coasted up the grade all the way to the
top.                                          

Wire was restrung but, the Catenery Suspension was not restored.                    

Don L.     



From sunrise at bikethehoan.com  Sun Nov 21 18:14:02 2010
From: sunrise at bikethehoan.com (William Sell)
Date: Sun, 21 Nov 2010 17:14:02 -0600
Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: County Stadium, 1954
In-Reply-To: <67AEF4129B1A4A87A5342C2B37FB8414@KTJosephson>
References: <CE328D9A0E4E4EC2A9491D0013FC16CB@KTJosephson>
 <4ce94556.9c7bdc0a.733b.67de@mx.google.com>
 <67AEF4129B1A4A87A5342C2B37FB8414@KTJosephson>
Message-ID: <4ce9a7bd.4a2fdc0a.50e8.6bea@mx.google.com>

Ironic how the stadium, within a few years of the failing interurban, 
takes out a piece of rail right of way. Ironic, as I see the sales 
tax for the new county stadium, enacted maybe 10-15 years ago, as the 
tax that would have funded our bus and streetcar system.  In fact, 
there was a certain bitterness among some citizens that the tax was 
enacted after the governor asked northern Wisconsinites to "stick it 
to" Milwaukee.  The bitterness lingers; the pouring of our modest 
means into a millionaire's business lingers; and it's been a tough 
battle trying to get a small sales tax for bus and rail funding back 
when we really need it.  If the Brewers had backed bus funding (out 
of sheer gratitude) the story might be turning out more positively.
Bill



At 10:57 AM 11/21/2010, Ken and Tracie wrote:
>Yes it is.
>
>K.
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "William Sell" <sunrise at bikethehoan.com>
>To: <milwaukee-electric at lists.dementia.org>
>Sent: Sunday, November 21, 2010 8:14 AM
>Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: County Stadium, 1954
>
>
> > Is that a cut through the elevated interurban rail line?
> >
> >
> > At 01:08 AM 11/21/2010, you wrote:
> >>Content-Type: text/plain;
> >>         charset="iso-8859-1"
> >>Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
> >>This photo ought to spark some conversation:
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>-- Attached file removed by Ecartis and put at URL below --
> >>-- Type: image/jpeg
> >>-- Size: 235k (240783 bytes)
> >>-- URL :
> >>http://lists.dementia.org/files/milwaukee-electric/countystadium0001.jpg
> >
> >
> >             }><((( " > }><((( " >   }><((( " >    }><(((
> > " >      }><((( " >        }><((( " >
> >   }><((( " >                 }><((( " > < "
> > )))><{~~~~         }><((( " >      }><((( " >        }><((( " >
> >   }><((( " >    }><((( " >      }><((( " >  }><((( " >        }><(((
> > " >    }><((( " > }><((( " >
> >
> >
> >


             }><((( " > }><((( " >   }><((( " >    }><((( 
" >      }><((( " >        }><((( " >
   }><((( " >                 }><((( " > < " 
)))><{~~~~         }><((( " >      }><((( " >        }><((( " >
   }><((( " >    }><((( " >      }><((( " >  }><((( " >        }><((( 
" >    }><((( " > }><((( " >




From gSchnabl at SWDetroit.com  Sun Nov 21 20:28:07 2010
From: gSchnabl at SWDetroit.com (Gary Schnabl)
Date: Sun, 21 Nov 2010 20:28:07 -0500
Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: County Stadium, 1954
In-Reply-To: <67AEF4129B1A4A87A5342C2B37FB8414@KTJosephson>
References: <CE328D9A0E4E4EC2A9491D0013FC16CB@KTJosephson> <4ce94556.9c7bdc0a.733b.67de@mx.google.com> <67AEF4129B1A4A87A5342C2B37FB8414@KTJosephson>
Message-ID: <4CE9C727.5010404@SWDetroit.com>

On 11/21/2010 11:57 AM, Ken and Tracie wrote:
> Yes it is.
>
> K.
I attended all those ball games there starting in 1953 (age 10 then) on 
my own except for the very first twilight doubleheader, as my parents 
were not in baseball. That berm cut of the ROW seemed quite noticeably 
high when it existed, although back then I was unaware of what it once 
was. What happened to it and when was it removed (or whatever)?

I always took the transit routes #30 and #11 until I drove there on my 
own when older. Was there a paved sidewalk leading to the stadium from 
the streetcar stop by the boneyards?

-- 

Gary Schnabl
Southwest Detroit, two miles NORTH! of Canada--Windsor, that is...





From sunrise at bikethehoan.com  Sun Nov 21 11:27:02 2010
From: sunrise at bikethehoan.com (William Sell)
Date: Sun, 21 Nov 2010 10:27:02 -0600
Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: Extra Wires
In-Reply-To: <15555-4CE939E5-633@storefull-3172.bay.webtv.net>
References: <"Ken and Tracie" <ktjosephson@embarqmail.com>
 <15555-4CE939E5-633@storefull-3172.bay.webtv.net>
Message-ID: <4ce9d14a.1ba5e60a.72be.7e6b@mx.google.com>

Definitely S. 16th street looking north. Some of the landmarks have not changed
Bill


At 09:25 AM 11/21/2010, Don L. Leistikow wrote:
>Ken:   This distant shot was probably taken from National Avenue,
>looking north as you already perceived.
>
>The clues are really limited to the Water Tower and Chimney's in the
>distant background.  The descending roadway is another clue as this the
>only area that fits this photo.  The 35th, 27th and 6th Street Viaducts,
>don't match this photo.  As I very seldom traveled over the 16th Street
>Viaduct, I am really not that familiar with the Viaduct 
>area.
>
>I believe that your conclusion, is correct.
>
>Don L.


             }><((( " > }><((( " >   }><((( " >    }><((( 
" >      }><((( " >        }><((( " >
   }><((( " >                 }><((( " > < " 
)))><{~~~~         }><((( " >      }><((( " >        }><((( " >
   }><((( " >    }><((( " >      }><((( " >  }><((( " >        }><((( 
" >    }><((( " > }><((( " >



From lallan45 at gmail.com  Sun Nov 21 21:21:55 2010
From: lallan45 at gmail.com (Larry Allan)
Date: Sun, 21 Nov 2010 20:21:55 -0600
Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: County Stadium, 1954
In-Reply-To: <4CE9C727.5010404@SWDetroit.com>
References: <CE328D9A0E4E4EC2A9491D0013FC16CB@KTJosephson>
	<4ce94556.9c7bdc0a.733b.67de@mx.google.com>
	<67AEF4129B1A4A87A5342C2B37FB8414@KTJosephson>
	<4CE9C727.5010404@SWDetroit.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTimGGMxZGHJ3zAJfdifEoLR3FzGgsSjwqtbgtBmM@mail.gmail.com>

Seems to be a few of the old Ties laying along the embankment.
On Sun, Nov 21, 2010 at 7:28 PM, Gary Schnabl <gSchnabl at swdetroit.com>wrote:

> On 11/21/2010 11:57 AM, Ken and Tracie wrote:
> > Yes it is.
> >
> > K.
> I attended all those ball games there starting in 1953 (age 10 then) on
> my own except for the very first twilight doubleheader, as my parents
> were not in baseball. That berm cut of the ROW seemed quite noticeably
> high when it existed, although back then I was unaware of what it once
> was. What happened to it and when was it removed (or whatever)?
>
> I always took the transit routes #30 and #11 until I drove there on my
> own when older. Was there a paved sidewalk leading to the stadium from
> the streetcar stop by the boneyards?
>
> --
>
> Gary Schnabl
> Southwest Detroit, two miles NORTH! of Canada--Windsor, that is...
>
>
>
>
>




From ktjosephson at embarqmail.com  Sun Nov 21 21:31:10 2010
From: ktjosephson at embarqmail.com (Ken and Tracie)
Date: Sun, 21 Nov 2010 18:31:10 -0800
Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: Extra Wires
References: <24465-4CE978AA-4650@storefull-3171.bay.webtv.net>
Message-ID: <98296641636E45088C8C484B67E76DA7@KTJosephson>

In this case, the feeder cables are hung from  the poles, not the span 
wires. I do recall a couple places Downtown, however, where Feeder cables 
were hung from span wires for short distances.
Definitely S. 16th Street, therefore, Route 20. Thanks for identifying the 
location. Here is a close up of one of the feeder cables hung from a steel 
line pole, on the west side of the street. The wires strung from the span 
wires, on the east side of the street do not appear to be feeders, as there 
is a feeder attached to the light pole in the same manner as the one across 
the street mounted to the steel line pole.

K.

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Don L. Leistikow" <DLeistikow at webtv.net>
To: <milwaukee-electric at lists.dementia.org>
Cc: <emory1522 at wi.rr.com>
Sent: Sunday, November 21, 2010 11:53 AM
Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: Extra Wires


> William S and list:   Not to be overlooked, is the Feeder Cable, which
> was usually hung on Wooden Line Poles at the Curb.


-- Attached file removed by Ecartis and put at URL below --
-- Type: image/jpeg
-- Size: 44k (45405 bytes)
-- URL : http://lists.dementia.org/files/milwaukee-electric/feeder001.jpg




From gSchnabl at SWDetroit.com  Sun Nov 21 21:35:01 2010
From: gSchnabl at SWDetroit.com (Gary Schnabl)
Date: Sun, 21 Nov 2010 21:35:01 -0500
Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: Extra Wires
In-Reply-To: <278BF150470742B2A5AA8053DF927D8E@KTJosephson>
References: <CE328D9A0E4E4EC2A9491D0013FC16CB@KTJosephson> <278BF150470742B2A5AA8053DF927D8E@KTJosephson>
Message-ID: <4CE9D6D5.9010209@SWDetroit.com>

On 11/21/2010 4:12 AM, Ken and Tracie wrote:
> I believe this is South 16th Street, looking northbound towards the viaduct.
> If you study the trackless trolley overhead, you will notice, on the east
> side of the street, two smaller gauge wires, suspended from the span wires,
> between the streetlight pole and the strain insulator. I wonder what they
> are?
> The feeder cables are strung from insulators mounted to the poles by hook
> shaped bracket pins and the streetlights are the type feed by underground
> circuits. I remember Milwaukee using above ground streetlighting circuits,
> but those were usually used with wooden pole construction, and almost always
> were accompanied by small transformers at each light.  Besides, I do not see
> the wires feeding the streetlight on the right.
>
> I am wondering if this might be a circuit tied in with the contact wires, to
> trip the traffic signals at National Avenue. I know the 60th&  Vliet Street
> loop had some sort of contact on the trackless trolley overhead. Not sure if
> that was for traffic signal control or a dispatching communication device.
> Pittsburgh's 42/38 streetcar line had trolley pole activated traffic signals
> at both the Mount Lebanon loop and the also where the car line left
> Washington Road for private right of way prior to the line being placed into
> a subway under Washington Road.
>
> Any ideas?
>
> K
If that were 16th Street facing north, what would those taller buildings 
west of 16th Street north of the valley be? Were there any such 
buildings west of Marquette University? Might that have been facing 
south instead, by Clyborn or whatever other street that was north of the 
valley?

I do not believe it could have been 27th Street facing south because my 
father had a general-contractor drinking buddy (Art Baer) who (I though) 
had his place of business on the NW corner of the street north of 27th 
Street where that metal coating building would be if it were on 27th.


-- 

Gary Schnabl
Southwest Detroit, two miles NORTH! of Canada--Windsor, that is...





From don0731 at gte.net  Sun Nov 21 21:51:10 2010
From: don0731 at gte.net (Don Ross)
Date: Sun, 21 Nov 2010 20:51:10 -0600
Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: Extra Wires
In-Reply-To: <278BF150470742B2A5AA8053DF927D8E@KTJosephson>
References: <CE328D9A0E4E4EC2A9491D0013FC16CB@KTJosephson>
 <278BF150470742B2A5AA8053DF927D8E@KTJosephson>
Message-ID: <0LC900KQTMLKJOL4@vms173017.mailsrvcs.net>

I betcha those lines are communication rather than power.  The power 
feeders were on the poles.

At 03:12 AM 11/21/2010, you wrote:
>I believe this is South 16th Street, looking northbound towards the viaduct.
>If you study the trackless trolley overhead, you will notice, on the east
>side of the street, two smaller gauge wires, suspended from the span wires,
>between the streetlight pole and the strain insulator. I wonder what they
>are?
>The feeder cables are strung from insulators mounted to the poles by hook
>shaped bracket pins and the streetlights are the type feed by underground
>circuits. I remember Milwaukee using above ground streetlighting circuits,
>but those were usually used with wooden pole construction, and almost always
>were accompanied by small transformers at each light.  Besides, I do not see
>the wires feeding the streetlight on the right.
>
>I am wondering if this might be a circuit tied in with the contact wires, to
>trip the traffic signals at National Avenue. I know the 60th & Vliet Street
>loop had some sort of contact on the trackless trolley overhead. Not sure if
>that was for traffic signal control or a dispatching communication device.
>Pittsburgh's 42/38 streetcar line had trolley pole activated traffic signals
>at both the Mount Lebanon loop and the also where the car line left
>Washington Road for private right of way prior to the line being placed into
>a subway under Washington Road.
>
>Any ideas?




From DLeistikow at webtv.net  Mon Nov 22 02:14:55 2010
From: DLeistikow at webtv.net (Don L. Leistikow)
Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2010 01:14:55 -0600
Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: County Stadium, 1954
In-Reply-To: William Sell <sunrise@bikethehoan.com>'s message of Sun, 21
	Nov 2010 17:14:02 -0600
Message-ID: <15549-4CEA186F-6986@storefull-3172.bay.webtv.net>

Bill S and list:  Note that the Freeway gets all the money it asks for.                           

In many cases, even more than what was approved.  Why is it that the
financial records and expsnsis, not generally made public?                                                     

Case in point:  The Marquette Interchange was approved to be replaced...
in kind.  No changes in its format were to be allowed.  That meant that
the exTMER&L Building at 900 and 940 W. St.Paul Avenue, would simply be
retaomed. imtouched.  When that building was vacated and then torn down,
I knew that Plan 2, was in progress.                            

That meant a larger footprint and additional expense, not covered by the
State and Fed's.  When completed, SWERPC and the Transportation
Secretary, touted the savings as proof of their expertise.                                          

A couple of months later, The Milwaukee Journal ran an article that
exposed this falsehood as a change order provided for the specified
plastic coating of the Rebar, was cut, thus explaining the real reason
that they came in under Budget.  The Plastic Coating, would have greatly
extended the life of the present Marquette Interchange, for which it was
designed.     

Of course, the Plan 2 program, by its expansion, took more property
taxes off of the Tax Rolls, thereby negating the cost savings.  Of
course, this does not show on the face of the MQ Interchange expsnse
reports.                                       

That's in another Budget and File......         

Don L.   



From sunrise at bikethehoan.com  Mon Nov 22 08:52:43 2010
From: sunrise at bikethehoan.com (William Sell)
Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2010 07:52:43 -0600
Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: Extra Wires
In-Reply-To: <4CE9D6D5.9010209@SWDetroit.com>
References: <CE328D9A0E4E4EC2A9491D0013FC16CB@KTJosephson>
 <278BF150470742B2A5AA8053DF927D8E@KTJosephson>
 <4CE9D6D5.9010209@SWDetroit.com>
Message-ID: <4cea75ac.857adc0a.5f63.7d24@mx.google.com>

Gary
Could those taller buildings way on the horizon have been either 
Deaconess or Children's Hospitals?
B


At 08:35 PM 11/21/2010, Gary Schnabl wrote:
>On 11/21/2010 4:12 AM, Ken and Tracie wrote:
> > I believe this is South 16th Street, looking northbound towards 
> the viaduct.
> > If you study the trackless trolley overhead, you will notice, on the east
> > side of the street, two smaller gauge wires, suspended from the span wires,
> > between the streetlight pole and the strain insulator. I wonder what they
> > are?
> > The feeder cables are strung from insulators mounted to the poles by hook
> > shaped bracket pins and the streetlights are the type feed by underground
> > circuits. I remember Milwaukee using above ground streetlighting circuits,
> > but those were usually used with wooden pole construction, and 
> almost always
> > were accompanied by small transformers at each light.  Besides, I 
> do not see
> > the wires feeding the streetlight on the right.
> >
> > I am wondering if this might be a circuit tied in with the 
> contact wires, to
> > trip the traffic signals at National Avenue. I know the 60th&  Vliet Street
> > loop had some sort of contact on the trackless trolley overhead. 
> Not sure if
> > that was for traffic signal control or a dispatching communication device.
> > Pittsburgh's 42/38 streetcar line had trolley pole activated 
> traffic signals
> > at both the Mount Lebanon loop and the also where the car line left
> > Washington Road for private right of way prior to the line being 
> placed into
> > a subway under Washington Road.
> >
> > Any ideas?
> >
> > K
>If that were 16th Street facing north, what would those taller buildings
>west of 16th Street north of the valley be? Were there any such
>buildings west of Marquette University? Might that have been facing
>south instead, by Clyborn or whatever other street that was north of the
>valley?
>
>I do not believe it could have been 27th Street facing south because my
>father had a general-contractor drinking buddy (Art Baer) who (I though)
>had his place of business on the NW corner of the street north of 27th
>Street where that metal coating building would be if it were on 27th.
>
>
>--
>
>Gary Schnabl
>Southwest Detroit, two miles NORTH! of Canada--Windsor, that is...


             }><((( " > }><((( " >   }><((( " >    }><((( 
" >      }><((( " >        }><((( " >
   }><((( " >                 }><((( " > < " 
)))><{~~~~         }><((( " >      }><((( " >        }><((( " >
   }><((( " >    }><((( " >      }><((( " >  }><((( " >        }><((( 
" >    }><((( " > }><((( " >




From yance at oldmilwaukee.net  Sun Nov 21 22:22:04 2010
From: yance at oldmilwaukee.net (Y Marti)
Date: Sun, 21 Nov 2010 22:22:04 -0500
Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: Extra Wires
In-Reply-To: <4CE9D6D5.9010209@SWDetroit.com>
References: <CE328D9A0E4E4EC2A9491D0013FC16CB@KTJosephson>
 <278BF150470742B2A5AA8053DF927D8E@KTJosephson>
 <4CE9D6D5.9010209@SWDetroit.com>
Message-ID: <20101121222204.27014rjxpd3cq7s0@horde.oldmilwaukee.net>

Those are the taller apartment buildings on the Avenue. Some of the  
buildings in the foreground right are still there between Pierce and  
National. The building on the near right side is still there on the  
northeast corner of National & 16th St. It has been renovated with  
fake stone but the windows and the door of the side entrance still  
match.

http://goo.gl/mMwGG

Quoting Gary Schnabl <gSchnabl at SWDetroit.com>:

> If that were 16th Street facing north, what would those taller buildings
> west of 16th Street north of the valley be? Were there any such
> buildings west of Marquette University? Might that have been facing
> south instead, by Clyborn or whatever other street that was north of the
> valley?
>
> I do not believe it could have been 27th Street facing south because my
> father had a general-contractor drinking buddy (Art Baer) who (I though)
> had his place of business on the NW corner of the street north of 27th
> Street where that metal coating building would be if it were on 27th.
>
>
> --
>
> Gary Schnabl
> Southwest Detroit, two miles NORTH! of Canada--Windsor, that is...
>
>
>
>
>




From x779 at webtv.net  Mon Nov 22 12:09:09 2010
From: x779 at webtv.net (Louis Rugani)
Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2010 17:09:09 GMT
Subject: [milwaukee-electric] CNN seeking opinions on traction.
Message-ID: <SNT113-DS24103B0353EB8FEC263C43983D0@phx.gbl>

CNN wants YOUR opinion on streetcars/trolleys
    
Posted by: "thompattersoncnn" patterson_thom at yahoo.com thompattersoncnn
Hi, I'm a CNN.com producer seeking opinions on streetcars and trolleys as a modern urban transport.

Please send us video of yourself on your local streetcar or trolley
while you talk about your views on the local transit system and its
streetcars. Do streetcars represent part of the future of urban mass transit, or should they remain in the past? What benefits do they offer your community? What harm do they pose? If you can't send us a video of yourself on a streetcar or trolley, please send photos of yourself riding a streetcar or trolley and then write us an iReport with all your opinions. Don't hold back!
If you're interested, here's the iReport.com link 
<http://ireport.cnn.com/ir-topic-stories.jspa?topicId=519841>  where you can send your stuff.
Thanks for considering!
Thom


=Lou=

~~~~~~~~~~ **-=\/=-** ~~~~~~~~~~

The opposite of bravery is not cowardice, but conformity.       Robert Anthony





From gSchnabl at SWDetroit.com  Mon Nov 22 14:42:24 2010
From: gSchnabl at SWDetroit.com (Gary Schnabl)
Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2010 14:42:24 -0500
Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: Extra Wires
In-Reply-To: <4cea75ac.857adc0a.5f63.7d24@mx.google.com>
References: <CE328D9A0E4E4EC2A9491D0013FC16CB@KTJosephson> <278BF150470742B2A5AA8053DF927D8E@KTJosephson> <4CE9D6D5.9010209@SWDetroit.com> <4cea75ac.857adc0a.5f63.7d24@mx.google.com>
Message-ID: <4CEAC7A0.2040905@SWDetroit.com>

On 11/22/2010 8:52 AM, William Sell wrote:
> Gary
> Could those taller buildings way on the horizon have been either
> Deaconess or Children's Hospitals?
> B
During the early 1970s my mother worked at Lutheran Hospital at 19th and 
Wells or so. I suppose its building had some height too.


-- 

Gary Schnabl
Southwest Detroit, two miles NORTH! of Canada--Windsor, that is...





From gSchnabl at SWDetroit.com  Mon Nov 22 15:02:02 2010
From: gSchnabl at SWDetroit.com (Gary Schnabl)
Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2010 15:02:02 -0500
Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: CNN seeking opinions on traction.
In-Reply-To: <SNT113-DS24103B0353EB8FEC263C43983D0@phx.gbl>
References: <SNT113-DS24103B0353EB8FEC263C43983D0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <4CEACC3A.7090108@SWDetroit.com>

On 11/22/2010 12:09 PM, Louis Rugani wrote:
> CNN wants YOUR opinion on streetcars/trolleys
>
> Posted by: "thompattersoncnn" patterson_thom at yahoo.com thompattersoncnn
> Hi, I'm a CNN.com producer seeking opinions on streetcars and trolleys as a modern urban transport.
>
> Please send us video of yourself on your local streetcar or trolley
> while you talk about your views on the local transit system and its
> streetcars. Do streetcars represent part of the future of urban mass transit, or should they remain in the past? What benefits do they offer your community? What harm do they pose? If you can't send us a video of yourself on a streetcar or trolley, please send photos of yourself riding a streetcar or trolley and then write us an iReport with all your opinions. Don't hold back!
> If you're interested, here's the iReport.com link
> <http://ireport.cnn.com/ir-topic-stories.jspa?topicId=519841>   where you can send your stuff.
> Thanks for considering!
> Thom
>
>
> =Lou=
Detroit is planning a 3.4-mile stretch streetcar line along its main 
drag--Woodward Avenue--connecting downtown with the other downtown, the 
New Center. However, even with generous private funding, its proposed 
cost is going way past the tens of $ millions donated or pledged by the 
Kresge Foundation and others. There are bus lines along that route whose 
ridership will be somewhat cannabalized for the three miles of parallel 
streetcars. Other bus routes were abandoned recently, among other 
service cutbacks.

Personally, I think that streetcar line is a waste of precious funding 
for a city on the verge of bankruptcy. Detroit has two town islands--the 
cities of Hamtramck and Highland Park. Highland Park was once was suburb 
for the wealthy during the boom days a century ago. However, it went 
bankrupt a decade ago and has no police department, although it is 
crime-ridden. Hamtramck won't be able to meet public payroll in two more 
months, so it is now seeking public-sector bankruptcy the past two weeks.

Yet some desire light transit (streetcars) for salvation.

Gary

-- 

Gary Schnabl
Southwest Detroit, two miles NORTH! of Canada--Windsor, that is...





From jdl896 at wi.rr.com  Mon Nov 22 16:34:48 2010
From: jdl896 at wi.rr.com (jdl896 at wi.rr.com)
Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2010 16:34:48 -0500
Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: Extra Wires
In-Reply-To: <278BF150470742B2A5AA8053DF927D8E@KTJosephson>
Message-ID: <20101122213448.GPXJ7.11621.root@hrndva-web15-z02>

Hi everyone~
This may be a reason for the extra wires. Russell Schultz' book THE TRACKLESS TROLLEY YEARS mentioned that north third street was contemplating express service to downtown for the routes 19 and 37, even though the service was never initiated. Instead, the trolleys were scheduled to run every 2 to 3 minutes.
 Even though the extra wires on south 16th street were extremely close to the curb, perhaps that was the way the route 20 trackless trolley could run express service, either by using the existing street wires for express service, while the wires closer to the curb would handle local traffic. Now, if these extra wires were also on the southbound side, that night be even more proof. Of course what's to say that those middle of the street wires couldn't be used in both directions (unless there were polarity issues on trackless trolley wires)

Can anyone confirm, or deny. this theory of mine?
John Luedtke


From DLeistikow at webtv.net  Mon Nov 22 17:54:17 2010
From: DLeistikow at webtv.net (Don L. Leistikow)
Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2010 16:54:17 -0600
Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: Extra Wires
In-Reply-To: Gary Schnabl <gSchnabl@SWDetroit.com>'s message of Mon, 22 Nov
	2010 14:42:24 -0500
Message-ID: <24476-4CEAF499-149@storefull-3171.bay.webtv.net>

Gary S and list:   IIRC, Milwaukee Lutheran Hospital was located at 19th
and Kilbourn.                                                   

Don L.    



From sunrise at bikethehoan.com  Tue Nov 23 11:13:49 2010
From: sunrise at bikethehoan.com (William Sell)
Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2010 10:13:49 -0600
Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: Extra Wires
In-Reply-To: <4CEAC7A0.2040905@SWDetroit.com>
References: <CE328D9A0E4E4EC2A9491D0013FC16CB@KTJosephson>
 <278BF150470742B2A5AA8053DF927D8E@KTJosephson>
 <4CE9D6D5.9010209@SWDetroit.com>
 <4cea75ac.857adc0a.5f63.7d24@mx.google.com>
 <4CEAC7A0.2040905@SWDetroit.com>
Message-ID: <4cebe839.9c6fe50a.4909.1f95@mx.google.com>

19th and Wells, to the best of my pictures in my head, is a large 
building but a former school, now used by a place for homeless.  Or 
it was.  Tall? Most schools are not tall. The hospital was on 
Kilbourn, but the cross street was 22nd, maybe a bit too far to the 
west to account for the building we see in the photo.  A ride to 19th 
and Wells will answer the question; i'm sure the building is still 
there, at 19th and Wells.
B



At 01:42 PM 11/22/2010, you wrote:
>On 11/22/2010 8:52 AM, William Sell wrote:
> > Gary
> > Could those taller buildings way on the horizon have been either
> > Deaconess or Children's Hospitals?
> > B
>During the early 1970s my mother worked at Lutheran Hospital at 19th and
>Wells or so. I suppose its building had some height too.
>
>
>--
>
>Gary Schnabl
>Southwest Detroit, two miles NORTH! of Canada--Windsor, that is...


             }><((( " > }><((( " >   }><((( " >    }><((( 
" >      }><((( " >        }><((( " >
   }><((( " >                 }><((( " > < " 
)))><{~~~~         }><((( " >      }><((( " >        }><((( " >
   }><((( " >    }><((( " >      }><((( " >  }><((( " >        }><((( 
" >    }><((( " > }><((( " >




From sunrise at bikethehoan.com  Tue Nov 23 12:17:14 2010
From: sunrise at bikethehoan.com (William Sell)
Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2010 11:17:14 -0600
Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: Extra Wires
In-Reply-To: <20101121222204.27014rjxpd3cq7s0@horde.oldmilwaukee.net>
References: <CE328D9A0E4E4EC2A9491D0013FC16CB@KTJosephson>
 <278BF150470742B2A5AA8053DF927D8E@KTJosephson>
 <4CE9D6D5.9010209@SWDetroit.com>
 <20101121222204.27014rjxpd3cq7s0@horde.oldmilwaukee.net>
Message-ID: <4cebf716.a369e50a.2c48.2893@mx.google.com>

I believe this reflects my opinion and memory


At 09:22 PM 11/21/2010, you wrote:
>Those are the taller apartment buildings on the Avenue. Some of the
>buildings in the foreground right are still there between Pierce and
>National. The building on the near right side is still there on the
>northeast corner of National & 16th St. It has been renovated with
>fake stone but the windows and the door of the side entrance still
>match.
>
>http://goo.gl/mMwGG
>
>Quoting Gary Schnabl <gSchnabl at SWDetroit.com>:
>
> > If that were 16th Street facing north, what would those taller buildings
> > west of 16th Street north of the valley be? Were there any such
> > buildings west of Marquette University? Might that have been facing
> > south instead, by Clyborn or whatever other street that was north of the
> > valley?
> >
> > I do not believe it could have been 27th Street facing south because my
> > father had a general-contractor drinking buddy (Art Baer) who (I though)
> > had his place of business on the NW corner of the street north of 27th
> > Street where that metal coating building would be if it were on 27th.
> >
> >
> > --
> >
> > Gary Schnabl
> > Southwest Detroit, two miles NORTH! of Canada--Windsor, that is...
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >


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