From wlukomski at msn.com Mon Jul 18 21:26:30 2011 From: wlukomski at msn.com (William Lukomski) Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2011 20:26:30 -0500 Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: 25th Anniversary: "The Trolley at East Troy" In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I tried to send these once but it did not go thru correctly so I replied to an email I have and hopefully it goes thru this time.. This bridge is stamped with the Milwaukee Light Heat &Traction cement stamp and is located on the Root River Parkway just off Layton ave around 98th st maybe. It is so covered with foliage it is hard to see there is even a bridge there. You have to access it from another side of trees and walk thru a lot of brush to get to where I took the pics. The last pic is the old right of way for the line. At the top of the hill is the bridge. William A. Lukomski > From: x779 at webtv.net > To: milwaukee-electric at lists.dementia.org > CC: wisconsinrailroading at onelist.com > Subject: [milwaukee-electric] 25th Anniversary: "The Trolley at East Troy" > Date: Mon, 9 May 2011 15:03:00 +0000 > > Produced/released for TV in 1986 and never available on VHS or DVD but seen in its 56-minute entirety here over six chapters: > http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=trolley at east troy > > > -- Attached file removed by Ecartis and put at URL below -- -- Type: image/jpeg -- Size: 1424k (1458914 bytes) -- URL : http://lists.dementia.org/files/milwaukee-electric/P7180016.JPG -- Attached file removed by Ecartis and put at URL below -- -- Type: image/jpeg -- Size: 1442k (1477290 bytes) -- URL : http://lists.dementia.org/files/milwaukee-electric/P7180017.JPG -- Attached file removed by Ecartis and put at URL below -- -- Type: image/jpeg -- Size: 1490k (1525877 bytes) -- URL : http://lists.dementia.org/files/milwaukee-electric/02-P7180018.JPG -- Attached file removed by Ecartis and put at URL below -- -- Type: image/jpeg -- Size: 1119k (1146821 bytes) -- URL : http://lists.dementia.org/files/milwaukee-electric/02-P7180012.JPG -- Attached file removed by Ecartis and put at URL below -- -- Type: image/jpeg -- Size: 1698k (1738945 bytes) -- URL : http://lists.dementia.org/files/milwaukee-electric/02-P7180013.JPG -- Attached file removed by Ecartis and put at URL below -- -- Type: image/jpeg -- Size: 1540k (1577141 bytes) -- URL : http://lists.dementia.org/files/milwaukee-electric/02-P7180014.JPG -- Attached file removed by Ecartis and put at URL below -- -- Type: image/jpeg -- Size: 1580k (1618239 bytes) -- URL : http://lists.dementia.org/files/milwaukee-electric/P7180015.JPG From DLeistikow at webtv.net Mon Jul 18 23:30:53 2011 From: DLeistikow at webtv.net (Don Leistikow) Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2011 22:30:53 -0500 Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: 25th Anniversary: "The Trolley at East Troy" In-Reply-To: William Lukomski 's message of Mon, 18 Jul 2011 20:26:30 -0500 Message-ID: <24022-4E24FA6D-102@storefull-3173.bay.webtv.net> Willilam L and list: Sorry,my 'webber' will not download your photos, even though they are in JPG format. First time that has ever happened. Perhpas this may be due to some additianal material alolng with the photos. Anyway.... are you related to one Ed Lukomski (Lutomski) (?), who was the C&NW agent at their 3rd ward yard in Milwaukee? That would be back in the 1960's and later. As i was then the Traffic Manager for Roundy's in Wauwatosa, served by the C&NW, some traffic that came in on the MILW, was switched from the Burnham yard to the C&NW via direct connection in the viniticty of 1st and Greenfield. Persables then from the west and southwest would arrive Miwlaukee on the fitth morning whereas, the C&NW arrivalas frm the same origins would arrive Butler on the sixth morning. The days dely on the C&NW, was due to re-classifiying at Proviso. Those were the days, my friend......... Don L. From gSchnabl at SWDetroit.com Tue Jul 19 20:28:06 2011 From: gSchnabl at SWDetroit.com (Gary Schnabl) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2011 20:28:06 -0400 Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: 25th Anniversary: "The Trolley at East Troy" In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4E262116.3010007@SWDetroit.com> This 1934 map clearly shows where the interurban had its bridges (http://www4.uwm.edu/libraries/digilib/zoom/am000785.cfm ) over street, streams, and railroad tracks. It also shows that West Allis Junction was located just east of West Junction--the map uses an arrow to locate it just east of 98th and Burnham. I suppose that streetcars used West Allis Junction and walked the short distance to West Junction. Or did the two junctions use only one passenger stop? One (interurban?) viaduct was from 39th to 45th Street (a bit north of Canal Street) over the railroad tracks and the river. Was it really that long? That was probably used before the rapid transit route extended east of 35th Street to Eighth and Hibernia. Are there any remnants left of the bridge over Honey Creek--around 81st to 83rd Streets? Gary On 7/18/2011 9:26 PM, William Lukomski wrote: > I tried to send these once but it did not go thru correctly so I replied to an email I have and hopefully it goes thru this time.. > > This bridge is stamped with the Milwaukee Light Heat&Traction cement stamp and is located on the Root River Parkway just off Layton ave > around 98th st maybe. It is so covered with foliage it is hard to see there is even a bridge there. You have to access it from another > side of trees and walk thru a lot of brush to get to where I took the pics. The last pic is the old right of way for the line. At the top of the hill is the bridge. > > William A. Lukomski > >> From: x779 at webtv.net >> To: milwaukee-electric at lists.dementia.org >> CC: wisconsinrailroading at onelist.com >> Subject: [milwaukee-electric] 25th Anniversary: "The Trolley at East Troy" >> Date: Mon, 9 May 2011 15:03:00 +0000 >> >> Produced/released for TV in 1986 and never available on VHS or DVD but seen in its 56-minute entirety here over six chapters: >> http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=trolley at east troy >> >> >> > > > -- Attached file removed by Ecartis and put at URL below -- > -- Type: image/jpeg > -- Size: 1424k (1458914 bytes) > -- URL : http://lists.dementia.org/files/milwaukee-electric/P7180016.JPG > > > -- Attached file removed by Ecartis and put at URL below -- > -- Type: image/jpeg > -- Size: 1442k (1477290 bytes) > -- URL : http://lists.dementia.org/files/milwaukee-electric/P7180017.JPG > > > -- Attached file removed by Ecartis and put at URL below -- > -- Type: image/jpeg > -- Size: 1490k (1525877 bytes) > -- URL : http://lists.dementia.org/files/milwaukee-electric/02-P7180018.JPG > > > -- Attached file removed by Ecartis and put at URL below -- > -- Type: image/jpeg > -- Size: 1119k (1146821 bytes) > -- URL : http://lists.dementia.org/files/milwaukee-electric/02-P7180012.JPG > > > -- Attached file removed by Ecartis and put at URL below -- > -- Type: image/jpeg > -- Size: 1698k (1738945 bytes) > -- URL : http://lists.dementia.org/files/milwaukee-electric/02-P7180013.JPG > > > -- Attached file removed by Ecartis and put at URL below -- > -- Type: image/jpeg > -- Size: 1540k (1577141 bytes) > -- URL : http://lists.dementia.org/files/milwaukee-electric/02-P7180014.JPG > > > -- Attached file removed by Ecartis and put at URL below -- > -- Type: image/jpeg > -- Size: 1580k (1618239 bytes) > -- URL : http://lists.dementia.org/files/milwaukee-electric/P7180015.JPG > -- Gary Schnabl Southwest Detroit, two miles NORTH! of Canada--Windsor, that is... Technical Editor forum From don0731 at gte.net Wed Jul 20 02:47:32 2011 From: don0731 at gte.net (Don Ross) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2011 01:47:32 -0500 Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: 25th Anniversary: "The Trolley at East Troy" In-Reply-To: <4E262116.3010007@SWDetroit.com> References: <4E262116.3010007@SWDetroit.com> Message-ID: <0LOM003ECDJHIG00@vms173007.mailsrvcs.net> Think West Allis Junction was actually Belton Junction which was a CNW Tower. With the printed West Junction somewhat west of the TM printing, it may be where the actual place where the C&NW split from Madison and Butler. The TM had trackage from Lapham to 92nd and then to a line towards Waukesha. Route 10 went up to the TM West Junction. Route 19 came on Becher past 84th to National and Mukwonago to 101st and south to Hales Corners. Don R At 07:28 PM 7/19/2011, you wrote: >This 1934 map clearly shows where the interurban had its bridges >(http://www4.uwm.edu/libraries/digilib/zoom/am000785.cfm ) over street, >streams, and railroad tracks. It also shows that West Allis Junction was >located just east of West Junction--the map uses an arrow to locate it >just east of 98th and Burnham. I suppose that streetcars used West Allis >Junction and walked the short distance to West Junction. Or did the two >junctions use only one passenger stop? >One (interurban?) viaduct was from 39th to 45th Street (a bit north of >Canal Street) over the railroad tracks and the river. Was it really that >long? That was probably used before the rapid transit route extended >east of 35th Street to Eighth and Hibernia. Are there any remnants left >of the bridge over Honey Creek--around 81st to 83rd Streets? > > >Gary From gSchnabl at SWDetroit.com Wed Jul 20 06:40:36 2011 From: gSchnabl at SWDetroit.com (Gary Schnabl) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2011 06:40:36 -0400 Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: 25th Anniversary: "The Trolley at East Troy" In-Reply-To: <0LOM003ECDJHIG00@vms173007.mailsrvcs.net> References: <4E262116.3010007@SWDetroit.com> <0LOM003ECDJHIG00@vms173007.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <4E26B0A4.2020505@SWDetroit.com> West Allis Junction (98th Street) could very well be the site of the interlocking tower. However, the CNW interchange to the north appears to be at 102nd Street. The Hales Corners route bridge over Burnham was located between 99th and 100th Streets. Perhaps, better road access to a CNW interlocking tower at 98th Street might have been a consideration to locate it some four blocks east of the interchange. The map seems to show something parallel to the CNW tracks about two blocks wide. Was there a CNW yard or team tracks at that location? I live on a quiet dead-end street in an area that could be considered part of the once-huge Junction Yard (Livernois Yard ) owned by the NY Central (named the Michigan Central for its Michigan and Ontario trackage). It is the only residential street in the entire yard area--only twelve houses. There are still remnants of a number of older team tracks nearby. Gary On 7/20/2011 2:47 AM, Don Ross wrote: > Think West Allis Junction was actually Belton Junction which was a > CNW Tower. With the printed West Junction somewhat west of the TM > printing, it may be where the actual place where the C&NW split from > Madison and Butler. The TM had trackage from Lapham to 92nd and then > to a line towards Waukesha. Route 10 went up to the TM West > Junction. Route 19 came on Becher past 84th to National and > Mukwonago to 101st and south to Hales Corners. > Don R > > At 07:28 PM 7/19/2011, you wrote: >> This 1934 map clearly shows where the interurban had its bridges >> (http://www4.uwm.edu/libraries/digilib/zoom/am000785.cfm ) over street, >> streams, and railroad tracks. It also shows that West Allis Junction was >> located just east of West Junction--the map uses an arrow to locate it >> just east of 98th and Burnham. I suppose that streetcars used West Allis >> Junction and walked the short distance to West Junction. Or did the two >> junctions use only one passenger stop? >> One (interurban?) viaduct was from 39th to 45th Street (a bit north of >> Canal Street) over the railroad tracks and the river. Was it really that >> long? That was probably used before the rapid transit route extended >> east of 35th Street to Eighth and Hibernia. Are there any remnants left >> of the bridge over Honey Creek--around 81st to 83rd Streets? >> >> >> Gary -- Gary Schnabl Southwest Detroit, two miles NORTH! of Canada--Windsor, that is... Technical Editor forum From don0731 at gte.net Wed Jul 20 11:17:31 2011 From: don0731 at gte.net (Don Ross) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2011 10:17:31 -0500 Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: 25th Anniversary: "The Trolley at East Troy" In-Reply-To: <4E26B0A4.2020505@SWDetroit.com> References: <4E262116.3010007@SWDetroit.com> <0LOM003ECDJHIG00@vms173007.mailsrvcs.net> <4E26B0A4.2020505@SWDetroit.com> Message-ID: <0LON0021G15HFK61@vms173017.mailsrvcs.net> I think the CNW had switches to the Madison line at Belton. The interchange track came off the Madison line to the TM. Looking at the current Google view, the Madison tracks cut off the main at Belton. My picture shows that point http://donsdepot.donrossgroup.net/dr0001/cnwbe.jpg It now looks as if the C&NW bridge over the TM Waukesha line is gone and a new wye track following along close to the TM right of way. It looks a lot different that when I hung around that area over 60 years ago. Don R At 05:40 AM 7/20/2011, you wrote: >West Allis Junction (98th Street) could very well be the site of the >interlocking tower. However, the CNW interchange to the north appears to >be at 102nd Street. The Hales Corners route bridge over Burnham was >located between 99th and 100th Streets. Perhaps, better road access to a >CNW interlocking tower at 98th Street might have been a consideration to >locate it some four blocks east of the interchange. >The map seems to show something parallel to the CNW tracks about two >blocks wide. Was there a CNW yard or team tracks at that location? I >live on a quiet dead-end street in an area that could be considered part >of the once-huge Junction Yard (Livernois Yard >) > >owned by the NY Central (named the Michigan Central for its Michigan and >Ontario trackage). It is the only residential street in the entire yard >area--only twelve houses. There are still remnants of a number of older >team tracks nearby. > >Gary > >On 7/20/2011 2:47 AM, Don Ross wrote: > > Think West Allis Junction was actually Belton Junction which was a > > CNW Tower. With the printed West Junction somewhat west of the TM > > printing, it may be where the actual place where the C&NW split from > > Madison and Butler. The TM had trackage from Lapham to 92nd and then > > to a line towards Waukesha. Route 10 went up to the TM West > > Junction. Route 19 came on Becher past 84th to National and > > Mukwonago to 101st and south to Hales Corners. > > Don R > > > > At 07:28 PM 7/19/2011, you wrote: > >> This 1934 map clearly shows where the interurban had its bridges > >> (http://www4.uwm.edu/libraries/digilib/zoom/am000785.cfm ) over street, > >> streams, and railroad tracks. It also shows that West Allis Junction was > >> located just east of West Junction--the map uses an arrow to locate it > >> just east of 98th and Burnham. I suppose that streetcars used West Allis > >> Junction and walked the short distance to West Junction. Or did the two > >> junctions use only one passenger stop? > >> One (interurban?) viaduct was from 39th to 45th Street (a bit north of > >> Canal Street) over the railroad tracks and the river. Was it really that > >> long? That was probably used before the rapid transit route extended > >> east of 35th Street to Eighth and Hibernia. Are there any remnants left > >> of the bridge over Honey Creek--around 81st to 83rd Streets? > >> > >> > >> Gary From DLeistikow at webtv.net Wed Jul 20 11:41:01 2011 From: DLeistikow at webtv.net (Don Leistikow) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2011 10:41:01 -0500 Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: 25th Anniversary: "The Trolley at East Troy" In-Reply-To: Gary Schnabl 's message of Wed, 20 Jul 2011 06:40:36 -0400 Message-ID: <17834-4E26F70D-832@storefull-3173.bay.webtv.net> Gary S and list: Much confusion here. Burnham street ended just west of 60th street. West Allis Junction with the switchman's tower, was on the C&NW, located east of the Rapid Transit overhead bridge. This was east of where the C&NW mainline turned north to Butler and the single line went west to Madison. Nominally, the TMER&L line to Hales Corners and beyond, was on a line equivalent to 100th street. As built, the lnes SW to Burlington and East Troy, came out via Burnham and Becher streets, turning SW along the then Mukwonago Road (now National Avenue) then turning South at the line of 100th street. The cut-off was built norrth from this point to join with the Waukesha - Watertown line at the then named West Junction, in 1030. The junction at 100t and National avenue, was named Fruitlaand. The original line west to Waukesha and Watertown, ran north on 3rd street, then west on Grand Avenue(Wisconsin avenue) to 11th, north to Wells, then west, over the Viaduct to 52nd, south on prow around the Calvary Cemetary thence west on Fairview to 70th, south to Greenfield. Thence west to 81st, south to Lapham and west to 92nd. A slight curve to the SW brought the prow to where it ran beside the C&NW alignmnet, deat west to, Waukesha. I hope that this explanation covers the ground. Don L. From DLeistikow at webtv.net Wed Jul 20 11:54:55 2011 From: DLeistikow at webtv.net (Don Leistikow) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2011 10:54:55 -0500 Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: 25th Anniversary: "The Trolley at East Troy" In-Reply-To: Don Ross 's message of Wed, 20 Jul 2011 10:17:31 -0500 Message-ID: <17836-4E26FA4F-575@storefull-3173.bay.webtv.net> Don R and list: Right On..... your photo looks East....that's the 92nd street Bridge in the background. The switchman's tower is, long gone too. Don L. From gSchnabl at SWDetroit.com Wed Jul 20 13:29:16 2011 From: gSchnabl at SWDetroit.com (Gary Schnabl) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2011 13:29:16 -0400 Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: 25th Anniversary: "The Trolley at East Troy" In-Reply-To: <17834-4E26F70D-832@storefull-3173.bay.webtv.net> References: <17834-4E26F70D-832@storefull-3173.bay.webtv.net> Message-ID: <4E27106C.8070908@SWDetroit.com> The 1934 map shows that Burnham went west to 66th Street, where there was an interchange heading north off the CNW line to the Milwaukee Road at Dickinson Street. At 67th Street, Burnham picked up again to the west to 73rd Street. There was another stretch of Burnham two blocks long between 82nd and 84th Streets. West of 84th, Maple Street was roughly in the same location where Burnham would have been; Maple went five blocks to 89th Street. There was yet another stretch of Burnham between 96th and 98th Streets, where the 1934 map placed an arrow pointing out the location of West Allis Junction. I though that might have been a team track, but it was a two-block stretch of Burnham, I guess. HTH Gary On 7/20/2011 11:41 AM, Don Leistikow wrote: > Gary S and list: Much confusion here. > > Burnham street ended just west of 60th street. > > West Allis Junction with the switchman's tower, was on the C&NW, located > east of the Rapid Transit overhead bridge. This was east of where the > C&NW mainline turned north to Butler and the single line went west to > Madison. > > Nominally, the TMER&L line to Hales Corners and beyond, was on a line > equivalent to 100th street. > > As built, the lnes SW to Burlington and East Troy, came out via Burnham > and Becher streets, turning SW along the then Mukwonago Road (now > National Avenue) then turning South at the line of 100th street. The > cut-off was built norrth from this point to join with the Waukesha - > Watertown line at the then named West Junction, in 1030. The junction at > 100t and National avenue, was named Fruitlaand. > > The original line west to Waukesha and Watertown, ran north on 3rd > street, then west on Grand Avenue(Wisconsin avenue) to 11th, north to > Wells, then west, over the Viaduct to 52nd, south on prow around the > Calvary Cemetary thence west on Fairview to 70th, south to Greenfield. > Thence west to 81st, south to Lapham and west to 92nd. A slight curve > to the SW brought the prow to where it ran beside the C&NW alignmnet, > deat west to, Waukesha. > > I hope that this explanation covers the ground. > > Don L. -- Gary Schnabl Southwest Detroit, two miles NORTH! of Canada--Windsor, that is... Technical Editor forum From gSchnabl at SWDetroit.com Wed Jul 20 13:39:43 2011 From: gSchnabl at SWDetroit.com (Gary Schnabl) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2011 13:39:43 -0400 Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: 25th Anniversary: "The Trolley at East Troy" In-Reply-To: <17834-4E26F70D-832@storefull-3173.bay.webtv.net> References: <17834-4E26F70D-832@storefull-3173.bay.webtv.net> Message-ID: <4E2712DF.4060200@SWDetroit.com> On 7/20/2011 11:41 AM, Don Leistikow wrote: > The original line west to Waukesha and Watertown, ran north on 3rd > street, then west on Grand Avenue(Wisconsin avenue) to 11th, north to > Wells, then west, over the Viaduct to 52nd, south on prow around the > Calvary Cemetary thence west on Fairview to 70th, south to Greenfield. > Thence west to 81st, south to Lapham and west to 92nd. A slight curve > to the SW brought the prow to where it ran beside the C&NW alignmnet, > deat west to, Waukesha. > > I hope that this explanation covers the ground. > > Don L. Later, the first stretch of the rapid-transit portion started west of 35th, though. I suppose that the long viaduct from 39th Street to near 45th and Canal connected the surface route (on Clybourn from the PSB?) with the interurban to where the original rapid transit part started. Are there any remnants of those six blocks south of Merrill Park? Gary -- Gary Schnabl Southwest Detroit, two miles NORTH! of Canada--Windsor, that is... Technical Editor forum From sbgreig_m1 at yahoo.com Wed Jul 20 14:09:37 2011 From: sbgreig_m1 at yahoo.com (Scott Greig) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2011 11:09:37 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: 25th Anniversary: "The Trolley at East Troy" In-Reply-To: <4E2712DF.4060200@SWDetroit.com> Message-ID: <1311185377.61347.YahooMailClassic@web181002.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Yes, it did. I have a couple of pictures of the original connection from Clybourn, taken near where it joined the Rapid Transit Line. As I understand it, there was a retaining wall at the start of the private right-of-way that was visible for many years, but by the time I tried chasing TM roadbeds it was gone. --- On Wed, 7/20/11, Gary Schnabl wrote: > Later, the first stretch of the rapid-transit portion > started west of > 35th, though. I suppose that the long viaduct from 39th > Street to near > 45th and Canal connected the surface route (on Clybourn > from the PSB?) > with the interurban to where the original rapid transit > part started. > Are there any remnants of those six blocks south of Merrill > Park? > > Gary > -- > > Gary Schnabl > Southwest Detroit, two miles NORTH! of Canada--Windsor, > that is... > > Technical Editor forum > > > > > From gSchnabl at SWDetroit.com Wed Jul 20 14:35:40 2011 From: gSchnabl at SWDetroit.com (Gary Schnabl) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2011 14:35:40 -0400 Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: 25th Anniversary: "The Trolley at East Troy" In-Reply-To: <1311185377.61347.YahooMailClassic@web181002.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1311185377.61347.YahooMailClassic@web181002.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4E271FFC.6010901@SWDetroit.com> I was unaware back in 1957, when I started MUHS nearby, that there was a PROW off 35th and Clybourn. A few years later, our intramural football team at the engineering college of MU played at MU Stadium. I walked around the neighborhood at times, but did not notice much of anything, primarily because I was not really looking... I clearly remember the PROW at 52nd + 1/2 Street and Wells, as I sometimes took the #10 partway home from MUHS, some ten miles away. Public transportation for six miles, walking/hitchhiking the final four miles to Pilgrim Road (156th Street) and Burleigh as a 14-year-old. BTW, the 1934 map showed that Merrill Park, just east of MU Stadium, then was called City Playground. Gary On 7/20/2011 2:09 PM, Scott Greig wrote: > Yes, it did. I have a couple of pictures of the original connection from Clybourn, taken near where it joined the Rapid Transit Line. > > As I understand it, there was a retaining wall at the start of the private right-of-way that was visible for many years, but by the time I tried chasing TM roadbeds it was gone. > > --- On Wed, 7/20/11, Gary Schnabl wrote: >> Later, the first stretch of the rapid-transit portion >> started west of >> 35th, though. I suppose that the long viaduct from 39th >> Street to near >> 45th and Canal connected the surface route (on Clybourn >> from the PSB?) >> with the interurban to where the original rapid transit >> part started. >> Are there any remnants of those six blocks south of Merrill >> Park? >> >> Gary Gary Schnabl Southwest Detroit, two miles NORTH! of Canada--Windsor, that is... Technical Editor forum From don0731 at gte.net Wed Jul 20 15:47:00 2011 From: don0731 at gte.net (Don Ross) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2011 14:47:00 -0500 Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: 25th Anniversary: "The Trolley at East Troy" In-Reply-To: <4E27106C.8070908@SWDetroit.com> References: <17834-4E26F70D-832@storefull-3173.bay.webtv.net> <4E27106C.8070908@SWDetroit.com> Message-ID: <0LON00MEPDMMET42@vms173007.mailsrvcs.net> Burnham ended just west of 62nd. I think there may a piece for a block or so after the TM went on private rail at 62. The rails came back on the street at 67th & Becher. There was a wooden shelter at Revere Place. http://donsdepot.donrossgroup.net/dr1143.htm Don At 12:29 PM 7/20/2011, you wrote: >The 1934 map shows that Burnham went west to 66th Street, where there >was an interchange heading north off the CNW line to the Milwaukee Road >at Dickinson Street. At 67th Street, Burnham picked up again to the west >to 73rd Street. There was another stretch of Burnham two blocks long >between 82nd and 84th Streets. West of 84th, Maple Street was roughly in >the same location where Burnham would have been; Maple went five blocks >to 89th Street. > >There was yet another stretch of Burnham between 96th and 98th Streets, >where the 1934 map placed an arrow pointing out the location of West >Allis Junction. I though that might have been a team track, but it was a >two-block stretch of Burnham, I guess. > >HTH > >Gary > >On 7/20/2011 11:41 AM, Don Leistikow wrote: > > Gary S and list: Much confusion here. > > > > Burnham street ended just west of 60th street. > > > > West Allis Junction with the switchman's tower, was on the C&NW, located > > east of the Rapid Transit overhead bridge. This was east of where the > > C&NW mainline turned north to Butler and the single line went west to > > Madison. > > > > Nominally, the TMER&L line to Hales Corners and beyond, was on a line > > equivalent to 100th street. > > > > As built, the lnes SW to Burlington and East Troy, came out via Burnham > > and Becher streets, turning SW along the then Mukwonago Road (now > > National Avenue) then turning South at the line of 100th street. The > > cut-off was built norrth from this point to join with the Waukesha - > > Watertown line at the then named West Junction, in 1030. The junction at > > 100t and National avenue, was named Fruitlaand. > > > > The original line west to Waukesha and Watertown, ran north on 3rd > > street, then west on Grand Avenue(Wisconsin avenue) to 11th, north to > > Wells, then west, over the Viaduct to 52nd, south on prow around the > > Calvary Cemetary thence west on Fairview to 70th, south to Greenfield. > > Thence west to 81st, south to Lapham and west to 92nd. A slight curve > > to the SW brought the prow to where it ran beside the C&NW alignmnet, > > deat west to, Waukesha. > > > > I hope that this explanation covers the ground. > > > > Don L. > > >-- > >Gary Schnabl >Southwest Detroit, two miles NORTH! of Canada--Windsor, that is... > >Technical Editor forum From gSchnabl at SWDetroit.com Wed Jul 20 16:57:35 2011 From: gSchnabl at SWDetroit.com (Gary Schnabl) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2011 16:57:35 -0400 Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: 25th Anniversary: "The Trolley at East Troy" In-Reply-To: <0LON00MEPDMMET42@vms173007.mailsrvcs.net> References: <17834-4E26F70D-832@storefull-3173.bay.webtv.net> <4E27106C.8070908@SWDetroit.com> <0LON00MEPDMMET42@vms173007.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <4E27413F.1060707@SWDetroit.com> As far as streets are concerned, Mapquest still shows Burnham as pretty much like the 1934 map showed it. The CNW probably had its interlocking/TO tower at 92nd Street, where the two tracks then expanded to five tracks up through the wye west of West Junction. The two-block stretch of Burnham between 96th and 98th Streets still exists. That was the site of whatever West Allis Junction was. It is all residential today, though. It is fairly easy to visualize where West Junction was, using the aerial maps. Was 100th Street bent a bit to the SW in order to accommodate the TM tracks at West Junction? So, was West Allis Junction an ancient railroad-stop artifact from the middle 1800s, after E.P. Allis bought Reliance Works and renamed it as Allis Company in 1860? A Google search keyed on West Allis Junction yielded no hits. Gary On 7/20/2011 3:47 PM, Don Ross wrote: > Burnham ended just west of 62nd. I think there may a piece for a > block or so after the TM went on private rail at 62. The rails came > back on the street at 67th& Becher. There was a wooden shelter at > Revere Place. http://donsdepot.donrossgroup.net/dr1143.htm > > Don > > > At 12:29 PM 7/20/2011, you wrote: > >> The 1934 map shows that Burnham went west to 66th Street, where there >> was an interchange heading north off the CNW line to the Milwaukee Road >> at Dickinson Street. At 67th Street, Burnham picked up again to the west >> to 73rd Street. There was another stretch of Burnham two blocks long >> between 82nd and 84th Streets. West of 84th, Maple Street was roughly in >> the same location where Burnham would have been; Maple went five blocks >> to 89th Street. >> >> There was yet another stretch of Burnham between 96th and 98th Streets, >> where the 1934 map placed an arrow pointing out the location of West >> Allis Junction. I though that might have been a team track, but it was a >> two-block stretch of Burnham, I guess. >> >> HTH >> >> Gary >> >> On 7/20/2011 11:41 AM, Don Leistikow wrote: >>> Gary S and list: Much confusion here. >>> >>> Burnham street ended just west of 60th street. >>> >>> West Allis Junction with the switchman's tower, was on the C&NW, located >>> east of the Rapid Transit overhead bridge. This was east of where the >>> C&NW mainline turned north to Butler and the single line went west to >>> Madison. >>> >>> Nominally, the TMER&L line to Hales Corners and beyond, was on a line >>> equivalent to 100th street. >>> >>> As built, the lnes SW to Burlington and East Troy, came out via Burnham >>> and Becher streets, turning SW along the then Mukwonago Road (now >>> National Avenue) then turning South at the line of 100th street. The >>> cut-off was built norrth from this point to join with the Waukesha - >>> Watertown line at the then named West Junction, in 1030. The junction at >>> 100t and National avenue, was named Fruitlaand. >>> >>> The original line west to Waukesha and Watertown, ran north on 3rd >>> street, then west on Grand Avenue(Wisconsin avenue) to 11th, north to >>> Wells, then west, over the Viaduct to 52nd, south on prow around the >>> Calvary Cemetary thence west on Fairview to 70th, south to Greenfield. >>> Thence west to 81st, south to Lapham and west to 92nd. A slight curve >>> to the SW brought the prow to where it ran beside the C&NW alignmnet, >>> deat west to, Waukesha. >>> >>> I hope that this explanation covers the ground. >>> >>> Don L. -- Gary Schnabl Southwest Detroit, two miles NORTH! of Canada--Windsor, that is... Technical Editor forum From DLeistikow at webtv.net Wed Jul 20 18:05:55 2011 From: DLeistikow at webtv.net (Don Leistikow) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2011 17:05:55 -0500 Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: 25th Anniversary: "The Trolley at East Troy" In-Reply-To: Gary Schnabl 's message of Wed, 20 Jul 2011 13:29:16 -0400 Message-ID: <17836-4E275143-883@storefull-3173.bay.webtv.net> Gary S and list: Ya Got Me ! Yes, I now see Burnham ending at 66th then again in place between 68th and 73rd streets. Next is a three block segment between 82nd and 84th streets. Another leg is shwon between 93rd and 98th streets.. My 1939 edition of the Milwaukee Metropolitan Area Transit Guide and Maps, shows nothing more than that. Memory tells me that there were dome industries on the morth side of the C&NW mainline. Surely, one of more of them, would have had Industrial spurs for carload loading, unloading or both. I've never heard of West Allis Junction but, that may well have been the C&NW name for the Tower and the connecting single tracked line to Madison. When TMER&L bilt the connection between Fruitland and West Junction,in 1930, a caroad track connection was build off this extension, connecting the TM with the CNW by a trailing switch south of the overhead bridge. This connecting track connected to the CNW Madison line trailing to the east at the interchange track connection. Thiem Products was an industry located on the interchange track, served by TMER&L I must review and update, my file on Industries which were carload served, keeping the box motor M 14 quite busy all night long. Don L. From don0731 at gte.net Wed Jul 20 18:08:03 2011 From: don0731 at gte.net (Don Ross) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2011 17:08:03 -0500 Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: 25th Anniversary: "The Trolley at East Troy" In-Reply-To: <4E27413F.1060707@SWDetroit.com> References: <17834-4E26F70D-832@storefull-3173.bay.webtv.net> <4E27106C.8070908@SWDetroit.com> <0LON00MEPDMMET42@vms173007.mailsrvcs.net> <4E27413F.1060707@SWDetroit.com> Message-ID: <0LON002HZK5QBY20@vms173019.mailsrvcs.net> I think West Allis Junction is Belton. At 03:57 PM 7/20/2011, you wrote: >As far as streets are concerned, Mapquest still shows Burnham as pretty >much like the 1934 map showed it. The CNW probably had its >interlocking/TO tower at 92nd Street, where the two tracks then expanded >to five tracks up through the wye west of West Junction. >The two-block stretch of Burnham between 96th and 98th Streets still >exists. That was the site of whatever West Allis Junction was. It is all >residential today, though. > >It is fairly easy to visualize where West Junction was, using the aerial >maps. Was 100th Street bent a bit to the SW in order to accommodate the >TM tracks at West Junction? > >So, was West Allis Junction an ancient railroad-stop artifact from the >middle 1800s, after E.P. Allis bought Reliance Works and renamed it as >Allis Company in 1860? A Google search keyed on West Allis Junction >yielded no hits. > >Gary From DLeistikow at webtv.net Wed Jul 20 18:17:40 2011 From: DLeistikow at webtv.net (Don Leistikow) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2011 17:17:40 -0500 Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: 25th Anniversary: "The Trolley at East Troy" In-Reply-To: Don Ross 's message of Wed, 20 Jul 2011 17:08:03 -0500 Message-ID: <17838-4E275404-476@storefull-3173.bay.webtv.net> Don R: You're right.... what we've been making reference to was.... Belton. Don L. From gSchnabl at SWDetroit.com Wed Jul 20 19:39:59 2011 From: gSchnabl at SWDetroit.com (Gary Schnabl) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2011 19:39:59 -0400 Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: 25th Anniversary: "The Trolley at East Troy" In-Reply-To: <17836-4E275143-883@storefull-3173.bay.webtv.net> References: <17836-4E275143-883@storefull-3173.bay.webtv.net> Message-ID: <4E27674F.1000409@SWDetroit.com> My take on WA Junction was that the cartographers simply carried over the name of a railroad depot or crossing from much older maps. That often happened. Maps depicting areas well within the confines of the city limits of Detroit, including those on Mapquest, still have names with a tiny circle, such as Oak (in NW Detroit on Fullerton) and such, which today are active or abandoned railroad yards. The area where I live was named West Detroit by the railroads, but was initially in the unincorporated town of Springwells (which once went almost downtown and included the old, demolished Tiger Stadium) before Detroit annexed it in the early 1900s. The Grand Trunk RR maintained a passenger/freight depot at West Detroit, so the N/S arterial street intersecting it, which originally was named Lovers Lane back during the early 1800s (or maybe even longer) was officially renamed Junction Street. BTW, my mother was born a couple blocks west of that street--less than a block from the still-standing West Detroit railroad marker. Many older locations on maps with names such as Xxx Crossing, Xxx Station, Xxx Junction, or just plain Xxx, were much older railroad names that mapmakers carried on from older maps. Gary On 7/20/2011 6:05 PM, Don Leistikow wrote: > Gary S and list: Ya Got Me ! Yes, I now see Burnham ending at 66th > then again in place between 68th and 73rd streets. Next is a three > block segment between 82nd and 84th streets. Another leg is shwon > between 93rd and 98th streets.. > > My 1939 edition of the Milwaukee Metropolitan Area Transit Guide and > Maps, shows nothing more than that. > > Memory tells me that there were dome industries on the morth side of the > C&NW mainline. Surely, one of more of them, would have had Industrial > spurs for carload loading, unloading or both. > > I've never heard of West Allis Junction but, that may well have been the > C&NW name for the Tower and the connecting single tracked line to > Madison. > > When TMER&L bilt the connection between Fruitland and West Junction,in > 1930, a caroad track connection was build off this extension, connecting > the TM with the CNW by a trailing switch south of the overhead bridge. > This connecting track connected to the CNW Madison line trailing to the > east at the interchange track connection. > > Thiem Products was an industry located on the interchange track, served > by TMER&L > > I must review and update, my file on Industries which were carload > served, keeping the box motor M 14 quite busy all night long. > > Don L. -- Gary Schnabl Southwest Detroit, two miles NORTH! of Canada--Windsor, that is... Technical Editor forum From gSchnabl at SWDetroit.com Wed Jul 20 20:40:37 2011 From: gSchnabl at SWDetroit.com (Gary Schnabl) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2011 20:40:37 -0400 Subject: [milwaukee-electric] West Allis Junction/Belton Message-ID: <4E277584.3030502@SWDetroit.com> This photo was apparently taken over thirty years ago from between 96th and 98th. The two-block stretch of Burnham is just barely visible. This is the location on the 1934 map that was marked as WA Junction with an arrow, pointing to it. http://www.flickr.com/photos/22244341 at N06/5267193241 Gary -- Gary Schnabl Southwest Detroit, two miles NORTH! of Canada--Windsor, that is... Technical Editor forum From DLeistikow at webtv.net Wed Jul 20 23:44:45 2011 From: DLeistikow at webtv.net (Don Leistikow) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2011 22:44:45 -0500 Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: West Allis Junction/Belton In-Reply-To: Gary Schnabl 's message of Wed, 20 Jul 2011 20:40:37 -0400 Message-ID: <2315-4E27A0AD-68@storefull-3172.bay.webtv.net> Gary S: Nice photo..... location clearly marked "Belton'. Growing up in Wauwatosa at 68th and Bluemound Road, back in the 1930's, and being very interested in Railroads, I must add that I've never heard Belton refered to as West Allis Junction. Occassionaly, a map-maker will not update changeing details, while marking new issues with progressive year marked publications. Knowing when the C&NW Belt Line was built, would shed more light on this topic. Don L. From gSchnabl at SWDetroit.com Thu Jul 21 01:05:15 2011 From: gSchnabl at SWDetroit.com (Gary Schnabl) Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2011 01:05:15 -0400 Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: West Allis Junction/Belton In-Reply-To: <2315-4E27A0AD-68@storefull-3172.bay.webtv.net> References: <2315-4E27A0AD-68@storefull-3172.bay.webtv.net> Message-ID: <4E27B38B.3050305@SWDetroit.com> What was the significance of the name Belton? Often, the owners of the railroads personally named their towns, depots, yard names, etc. The Confederate general at Petersburg, VA--William Mahone --and his wife named many Virginian railroad towns. His railroad at Petersburg evolved into what is the Norfolk Southern today. When I got drafted in 1968, I was stationed at the HHC (Headquarters and Headquarters Company) of the Quartermaster Corps, both at S-1 headquarters and as a TV director, essentially a civilian job at Fort Lee (Peterrsburg), VA. Better there than in Vietnam: two 18-hole golf courses, etc... Gary On 7/20/2011 11:44 PM, Don Leistikow wrote: > Gary S: Nice photo..... location clearly marked "Belton'. > > Growing up in Wauwatosa at 68th and Bluemound Road, back in the 1930's, > and being very interested in Railroads, I must add that I've never heard > Belton refered to as West Allis Junction. > > Occassionaly, a map-maker will not update changeing details, while > marking new issues with progressive year marked publications. > > Knowing when the C&NW Belt Line was built, would shed more light on this > topic. > > Don L. -- Gary Schnabl Southwest Detroit, two miles NORTH! of Canada--Windsor, that is... Technical Editor forum From don0731 at gte.net Thu Jul 21 01:31:52 2011 From: don0731 at gte.net (Don Ross) Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2011 00:31:52 -0500 Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: West Allis Junction/Belton In-Reply-To: <2315-4E27A0AD-68@storefull-3172.bay.webtv.net> References: <2315-4E27A0AD-68@storefull-3172.bay.webtv.net> Message-ID: <0LOO008X34PFHHP2@vms173005.mailsrvcs.net> I was agent for the Chicago & North Western agent at West Allis in 1952 for a month. I never heard of West Allis Junction. Don R At 10:44 PM 7/20/2011, you wrote: >Gary S: Nice photo..... location clearly marked >"Belton'. > >Growing up in Wauwatosa at 68th and Bluemound Road, back in the 1930's, >and being very interested in Railroads, I must add that I've never heard >Belton refered to as West Allis Junction. > >Occassionaly, a map-maker will not update changeing details, while >marking new issues with progressive year >marked publications. > >Knowing when the C&NW Belt Line was built, would shed more light on this >topic. > >Don L. From don0731 at gte.net Thu Jul 21 01:41:22 2011 From: don0731 at gte.net (Don Ross) Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2011 00:41:22 -0500 Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: West Allis Junction/Belton In-Reply-To: <4E27B38B.3050305@SWDetroit.com> References: <2315-4E27A0AD-68@storefull-3172.bay.webtv.net> <4E27B38B.3050305@SWDetroit.com> Message-ID: <0LOO007DN559WCE1@vms173009.mailsrvcs.net> The C&NW had a line from Milwaukee to Madison through West Allis. They had another line that ran from Milwaukee to Adams and went via Wiscona. The built a new line, the Belt Line from West Allis to Butler and then Tower BJ. The junction for the new Belt Line was at Belton.. You might want to look at the other points on the Belt Line http://donsdepot.donrossgroup.net/dr003.htm You might look at the pages on the TM and they might answer some of your question. And they might bring up other questions. http://donsdepot.donrossgroup.net/indextm.htm Don R At 12:05 AM 7/21/2011, you wrote: >What was the significance of the name Belton? Often, the owners of the >railroads personally named their towns, depots, yard names, etc. The >Confederate general at Petersburg, VA--William Mahone >--and his wife named many >Virginian railroad towns. His railroad at Petersburg evolved into what >is the Norfolk Southern today. >When I got drafted in 1968, I was stationed at the HHC (Headquarters and >Headquarters Company) of the Quartermaster Corps, both at S-1 >headquarters and as a TV director, essentially a civilian job at Fort >Lee (Peterrsburg), VA. Better there than in Vietnam: two 18-hole golf >courses, etc... > >Gary From gSchnabl at SWDetroit.com Thu Jul 21 01:51:57 2011 From: gSchnabl at SWDetroit.com (Gary Schnabl) Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2011 01:51:57 -0400 Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: West Allis Junction/Belton In-Reply-To: <0LOO008X34PFHHP2@vms173005.mailsrvcs.net> References: <2315-4E27A0AD-68@storefull-3172.bay.webtv.net> <0LOO008X34PFHHP2@vms173005.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <4E27BE7D.30409@SWDetroit.com> Nevertheless, there must have been some reason or another for the nomenclature and its being included on the 1934 Milwaukee map... West Allis itself was probably an evolution from people referring to E.P. Allis's second Milwaukee-area plant (originally in 1860 in the town of Wauwatosa, north of Greenfield--the southern limits for Wauwatosa township). His second plant was supposedly referred to as West Allis, in contrast to his smaller, original plant, located somewhere in Milwaukee. Somehow, the name stuck, and the village or city later became West Allis. It stands to reason that Belton probably originally bore the West Allis Junction name sometime after 1860 and was designated as such on older 19th Century maps, but subsequently was renamed. Newer maps, based upon the older ones, simply retained the older nomenclature Gary On 7/21/2011 1:31 AM, Don Ross wrote: > I was agent for the Chicago& North Western agent at West Allis in > 1952 for a month. I never heard of West Allis Junction. > Don R > > At 10:44 PM 7/20/2011, you wrote: >> Gary S: Nice photo..... location clearly marked >> "Belton'. >> >> Growing up in Wauwatosa at 68th and Bluemound Road, back in the 1930's, >> and being very interested in Railroads, I must add that I've never heard >> Belton refered to as West Allis Junction. >> >> Occassionaly, a map-maker will not update changeing details, while >> marking new issues with progressive year >> marked publications. >> >> Knowing when the C&NW Belt Line was built, would shed more light on this >> topic. >> >> Don L. -- Gary Schnabl Southwest Detroit, two miles NORTH! of Canada--Windsor, that is... Technical Editor forum From gSchnabl at SWDetroit.com Thu Jul 21 02:19:51 2011 From: gSchnabl at SWDetroit.com (Gary Schnabl) Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2011 02:19:51 -0400 Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: West Allis Junction/Belton In-Reply-To: <0LOO007DN559WCE1@vms173009.mailsrvcs.net> References: <2315-4E27A0AD-68@storefull-3172.bay.webtv.net> <4E27B38B.3050305@SWDetroit.com> <0LOO007DN559WCE1@vms173009.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <4E27C507.6040009@SWDetroit.com> You misspelled Capitol Drive on one reference. You omitted the CNW hamlet Riley, just west of Verona. It had two hotels once. Mostly railroad families lived there. An old general store and bar remain, and I rarely jammed there with my 5-string banjo. A clerk and his son, an engineer, lived in Riley and worked out of the Madison freight office before it was demoted drastically after the CNW rationalized during the late 1970s. I picked up the CNW crews occasionally at Rock Springs or Janesville and brought them to Madison when they doglawed. Gary On 7/21/2011 1:41 AM, Don Ross wrote: > The C&NW had a line from Milwaukee to Madison through West > Allis. They had another line that ran from Milwaukee to Adams and > went via Wiscona. The built a new line, the Belt Line from West > Allis to Butler and then Tower BJ. The junction for the new Belt > Line was at Belton.. > You might want to look at the other points on the Belt Line > http://donsdepot.donrossgroup.net/dr003.htm > You might look at the pages on the TM and they might answer some of > your question. And they might bring up other questions. > http://donsdepot.donrossgroup.net/indextm.htm > > Don R > > > At 12:05 AM 7/21/2011, you wrote: >> What was the significance of the name Belton? Often, the owners of the >> railroads personally named their towns, depots, yard names, etc. The >> Confederate general at Petersburg, VA--William Mahone >> --and his wife named many >> Virginian railroad towns. His railroad at Petersburg evolved into what >> is the Norfolk Southern today. >> When I got drafted in 1968, I was stationed at the HHC (Headquarters and >> Headquarters Company) of the Quartermaster Corps, both at S-1 >> headquarters and as a TV director, essentially a civilian job at Fort >> Lee (Peterrsburg), VA. Better there than in Vietnam: two 18-hole golf >> courses, etc... >> >> Gary >> -- Gary Schnabl Southwest Detroit, two miles NORTH! of Canada--Windsor, that is... Technical Editor forum From don0731 at gte.net Thu Jul 21 02:28:23 2011 From: don0731 at gte.net (Don Ross) Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2011 01:28:23 -0500 Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: West Allis Junction/Belton In-Reply-To: <4E27BE7D.30409@SWDetroit.com> References: <2315-4E27A0AD-68@storefull-3172.bay.webtv.net> <0LOO008X34PFHHP2@vms173005.mailsrvcs.net> <4E27BE7D.30409@SWDetroit.com> Message-ID: <0LOO000G67BNQS04@vms173009.mailsrvcs.net> The name West Allis was a fantastic political fight. The area was North Greenfield. In 1902 a group decided to organize and make it West Allis. If you look at the C&NW pictures, there was a station named Allis at National Avenue on the C&NW main and that was the location of the Allis plant along 1st St. They wanted the Allis people to set up a new plant which turned out to be the Allis Chalmers plant on 70th & Greenfield. Some of the locals wanted to keep the North Greenfield name for the new village. The West Allis guys came in an hour earlier and voted the West Allis name. The other folk came late and were quite PSd. West Allis became a city in 1906. Here is a cleaned up version and didn't tell the politics. We moved in to the Mitchell Manor area in 1938, Dad became an alderman in the 1950s. Don L and I were on a committee to try to keep trolley service. So There was no West Allis or West Allis Junction until after 1902. A Short History of the City of West Allis, Milwaukee County, Wisconsin From 1837 to the Present, A city of Homes and Industry The beginning of West Allis as an incorporated government dates to 1902, although the area was sparsely populated by settlers as early as 1837. Indian tribes still roamed the area when a few courageous families established a hamlet at a location that is now South 81 st Street and West National Avenue. At that time, the area was known as "Honey Creek" and included a few small houses, a blacksmith shop, sawmill, post office, two churches, and a log schoolhouse. The stagecoach passed through this settlement weekly, to and from Wisconsin's eventual state capitol, Madison, Wisconsin. In addition to carrying passengers, the stage also was used for hauling the mail. The little Honey Creek settlement saw its first bit of progress in 1880 when the Chicago Northwestern Railway built its line through the hamlet to Madison. M The railway company called its station "North Greenfield". In 1887 the area was platted and the village officially became "North Greenfield". In 1891, the Wisconsin State Agriculture Society established the Wisconsin State Fair at its present location. The establishment of the fair grounds made it necessary to provide public transportation facilities from Milwaukee to this area. Residential, industrial, and commercial progress was stimulated by the decision to locate the state fair in North Greenfield. Sunday, November 25 th 1900, is a significant date in the history of West Allis. On that day, Stutley I. Henderson, whose family was one of the area's original settlers, called upon Charles Allis of the Edward P. Allis Company (later named the Allis Chalmers Manufacturing company) for the purpose of selling him property for the location of Allis' new plant. The original Allis factory had been located in Milwaukee. One hundred acres of land (around present day South 70 th Street and W. Greenfield Avenue) were sold to the Allis Company at a cost of $25,000.00. Construction of the huge plant was then started on the location served by both the Milwaukee Road Railroad and the Chicago Northwestern Railroad with a spur line joining the two railways. By 1902, the Allis Company has started its factory. Other industrial plants, including the Rosenthal Corn Husker Company and the Fred Prescott Company had also established factories in West Allis. The industrial boom gave impetus to the building of homes for the owners and employees of the factories with the result that hundred of residences sprung up in the area that was still principally meadows and woodlands. Much residential growth had taken place in the east part of the city, west of the boundary, which now is South 56th Street, and south of the Milwaukee Road tracks. North Greenfield was the focal shopping area at the west limits of the city, and the area lying in both the towns of Greenfield and Wauwatosa had two locations where there was a concentration of residences. Civic leaders felt that it would be well to incorporate the entire area so that it could have a village form of government. The name of "West Allis" was adopted for the village, which was incorporated on May 31, 1902 with a census of 1018. An election of officers for the new village was held on July23, 1902 with Fred W. Henderson elected village president. On April 2, 1906, Governor J. O. Davidson declared the village of West Allis to be a city of the fourth class with a population of 2, 306. The first mayor of the city was Frank E. Walsh. With the occurrence of World War I in 1917, the community experienced another tremendous industrial boom. Progressive refinements and improvements resulted in the staffing and equipping of the city's various governmental services. The 1920s as a whole were kind to West Allis. Prosperity, busy factories, and expansion of public improvements made it a good place in which to live and work. The city's population soared during the decade. Climbing out of the depression of the 1930s West Allis experienced a new period of growth immediately following World War II and remained a vibrant, manufacturing based community until the early 1970s. While West Allis expanded its boundaries in a conservative manner during the first half century of its progress, it still had only four square miles of territory in 1953. Most of its industrially zoned property was occupied and building lots for residential purposes were scarce. In light of this situation, the city government annexed several square miles of area in the towns of Greenfield and Wauwatosa during the 1950s. After the annexations, West Allis grew to some 11.5 square miles. By 1990, West Allis had weathered several long recessions, the worst of which occurred in the early 1980s. Many longtime companies, including the city's namesake, Allis-Chalmers, were hard hit. Allis-Chalmers ceased all production in the city in the late 1980s. West Allis became a city in transition with its economy becoming increasingly diverse. Service industries, retail and office parks, and multifamily residences, are springing up in areas where manufacturing concerns once dominated. While manufacturing is no longer the backbone of the community it still plays a very important part in West Allis' future. New industries are still attracted by West Allis workers' reputation for skill and quality. West Allis is now (2002) the eighth largest city in the state with a population around 63,000. The community boasts six parks, a library with over 206, 996 books, the Wisconsin State Fair, 42 churches, 16 public schools, more than 2000 businesses, and numerous recreational opportunities. West Allis today still measures up to its motto of the past "A city of Homes and Industries". West Allis remains true to its progressive history and continues to be a leader among Wisconsin's municipalities. At 12:51 AM 7/21/2011, you wrote: >Nevertheless, there must have been some reason or another for the >nomenclature and its being included on the 1934 Milwaukee map... >West Allis itself was probably an evolution from people referring to >E.P. Allis's second Milwaukee-area plant (originally in 1860 in the town >of Wauwatosa, north of Greenfield--the southern limits for Wauwatosa >township). His second plant was supposedly referred to as West Allis, in >contrast to his smaller, original plant, located somewhere in Milwaukee. >Somehow, the name stuck, and the village or city later became West Allis. > >It stands to reason that Belton probably originally bore the West Allis >Junction name sometime after 1860 and was designated as such on older >19th Century maps, but subsequently was renamed. Newer maps, based upon >the older ones, simply retained the older nomenclature > >Gary > > >On 7/21/2011 1:31 AM, Don Ross wrote: > > I was agent for the Chicago& North Western agent at West Allis in > > 1952 for a month. I never heard of West Allis Junction. > > Don R > > > > At 10:44 PM 7/20/2011, you wrote: > >> Gary S: Nice photo..... location clearly marked > >> "Belton'. > >> > >> Growing up in Wauwatosa at 68th and Bluemound Road, back in the 1930's, > >> and being very interested in Railroads, I must add that I've never heard > >> Belton refered to as West Allis Junction. > >> > >> Occassionaly, a map-maker will not update changeing details, while > >> marking new issues with progressive year > >> marked publications. > >> > >> Knowing when the C&NW Belt Line was built, would shed more light on this > >> topic. > >> > >> Don L. > > >-- > >Gary Schnabl >Southwest Detroit, two miles NORTH! of Canada--Windsor, that is... > >Technical Editor forum From don0731 at gte.net Thu Jul 21 02:40:01 2011 From: don0731 at gte.net (Don Ross) Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2011 01:40:01 -0500 Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: West Allis Junction/Belton In-Reply-To: <4E27C507.6040009@SWDetroit.com> References: <2315-4E27A0AD-68@storefull-3172.bay.webtv.net> <4E27B38B.3050305@SWDetroit.com> <0LOO007DN559WCE1@vms173009.mailsrvcs.net> <4E27C507.6040009@SWDetroit.com> Message-ID: <0LOO008KJ7V0HH03@vms173005.mailsrvcs.net> I imagine that I missed quite a few little towns with 3300 pages, I bet there are more misspellings. Riley is my grand daughter, now 2 1/2. She is a total fanatic on Thomas. We went on the Grapevine train and now she yells "toot toot" all the time and runs around the house with her Thomas train. Saturday, we are going to ride the Trinity Express with Virginia's great-grandson and Riley. They are air conditioned. Don R Send me a picture of Riley, the CNW hamlet. At 01:19 AM 7/21/2011, you wrote: >You misspelled Capitol Drive on one reference. > >You omitted the CNW hamlet Riley, just west of Verona. It had two hotels >once. Mostly railroad families lived there. An old general store and bar >remain, and I rarely jammed there with my 5-string banjo. > >A clerk and his son, an engineer, lived in Riley and worked out of the >Madison freight office before it was demoted drastically after the CNW >rationalized during the late 1970s. I picked up the CNW crews >occasionally at Rock Springs or Janesville and brought them to Madison >when they doglawed. > >Gary > >On 7/21/2011 1:41 AM, Don Ross wrote: > > The C&NW had a line from Milwaukee to Madison through West > > Allis. They had another line that ran from Milwaukee to Adams and > > went via Wiscona. The built a new line, the Belt Line from West > > Allis to Butler and then Tower BJ. The junction for the new Belt > > Line was at Belton.. > > You might want to look at the other points on the Belt Line > > http://donsdepot.donrossgroup.net/dr003.htm > > You might look at the pages on the TM and they might answer some of > > your question. And they might bring up other questions. > > http://donsdepot.donrossgroup.net/indextm.htm > > > > Don R > > > > > > At 12:05 AM 7/21/2011, you wrote: > >> What was the significance of the name Belton? Often, the owners of the > >> railroads personally named their towns, depots, yard names, etc. The > >> Confederate general at Petersburg, VA--William Mahone > >> --and his wife named many > >> Virginian railroad towns. His railroad at Petersburg evolved into what > >> is the Norfolk Southern today. > >> When I got drafted in 1968, I was stationed at the HHC (Headquarters and > >> Headquarters Company) of the Quartermaster Corps, both at S-1 > >> headquarters and as a TV director, essentially a civilian job at Fort > >> Lee (Peterrsburg), VA. Better there than in Vietnam: two 18-hole golf > >> courses, etc... > >> > >> Gary > >> > > >-- > >Gary Schnabl >Southwest Detroit, two miles NORTH! of Canada--Windsor, that is... > >Technical Editor forum From DLeistikow at webtv.net Thu Jul 21 02:54:47 2011 From: DLeistikow at webtv.net (Don Leistikow) Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2011 01:54:47 -0500 Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: 25th Anniversary: "The Trolley at East Troy" In-Reply-To: Gary Schnabl 's message of Tue, 19 Jul 2011 20:28:06 -0400 Message-ID: <22060-4E27CD37-16@storefull-3171.bay.webtv.net> Gary S: Am backing up, on your posts. The TMER&L private right of way ran west of 89th street coming off of Lapham street. Crossing 92nd street the TMER&L prow ran alongside of the C&NW tracks, all the way to Waukesha. Consruction of the Local Rapid Tramsit Line began on the long curve east to north, in 1926. Note that construction began at the west end, running north on a line of 100th street, passing under Greenfiled avenue. Coninuing north, to the Schlinger Avenue stop, where it began the swing northeast, with stops at Adler and 92nd streets befpre completing the curve to an alignment on the base line marking the division between the north and south regions of Milwaukee County. Building eastward on a fill, the RTL crossed 84th street and stop, the additionsl stops were built at 79th, 76th, 73rd, 68th, Soldiers Home (52nd street alignment), on a downward elevation passing under 60th street, Hawley Road and a new concrete bridge over the RTl. A lolng wooden trestle was built across the Menonomee Valley then the porw passed along the north side of the bluff, surfacing and then entering 35th street, truning north. Two blocks ahead, the RTL cars turned east on Clybourn street to Sixth street, thence north one block to Michigan street and east to the Public Service Building, its Terminal. The final leg from 40th street alignment, was on the south side of the bluff, skirting the bluff and ultimaetly operating in a long cut, it entered city streets between 8th and 7th onto Clybourn. A half mile of the same street running, brought the RTL trains to the PSB. The bridges over the Milwaukee Road tracks, the River and 43rd street, were built (west to east), in he same 1926 tp 1928 time frame. Service over this new line, began on June 10th, 1928. All this was accomplished between 1926 and 1930. Don L Leistikow From gSchnabl at SWDetroit.com Thu Jul 21 02:51:06 2011 From: gSchnabl at SWDetroit.com (Gary Schnabl) Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2011 02:51:06 -0400 Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: West Allis Junction/Belton In-Reply-To: <0LOO000G67BNQS04@vms173009.mailsrvcs.net> References: <2315-4E27A0AD-68@storefull-3172.bay.webtv.net> <0LOO008X34PFHHP2@vms173005.mailsrvcs.net> <4E27BE7D.30409@SWDetroit.com> <0LOO000G67BNQS04@vms173009.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <4E27CC5A.4060702@SWDetroit.com> Interesting that West Allis became a city the same year as West Milwaukee became a village, both carved out of the town of Wauwatosa. The Milwaukee Road employed many residents of West Milwaukee, as the east side of the village was located just west of 35th Street. I have many distant kin who emigrated from three tiny, adjoining horse-farming villages in the Kaernten province of Austria--Feistritz, Achomitz (my grandfather's village), and Dreilach. Their names were Schnabl (service garage, probably near 44th and National), Kuglitsch (bar, bowling, etc.), Zwitter (saloon on 46th Street behind Ste. Florian's, Millonig, Druml (saloon and boarding house on 45th Street across from Ste. Florian's), etc. Harvey Kuenn's father-in-law came from there too--a Cezar (Kaiser, Caesar)--ran a boarding house at 52nd and National; still there today. Gary On 7/21/2011 2:28 AM, Don Ross wrote: > The name West Allis was a fantastic political fight. The area was > North Greenfield. In 1902 a group decided to organize and make it > West Allis. If you look at the C&NW pictures, there was a station > named Allis at National Avenue on the C&NW main and that was the > location of the Allis plant along 1st St. They wanted the Allis > people to set up a new plant which turned out to be the Allis > Chalmers plant on 70th& Greenfield. Some of the locals wanted to > keep the North Greenfield name for the new village. The West Allis > guys came in an hour earlier and voted the West Allis name. The > other folk came late and were quite PSd. West Allis became a city in 1906. > Here is a cleaned up version and didn't tell the politics. > We moved in to the Mitchell Manor area in 1938, Dad became an > alderman in the 1950s. Don L and I were on a committee to try to > keep trolley service. > So There was no West Allis or West Allis Junction until after 1902. > > A Short History of the City of West Allis, Milwaukee County, Wisconsin > > From 1837 to the Present, A city of Homes and Industry > > > > The beginning of West Allis as an incorporated government dates to > 1902, although the area was sparsely populated by settlers as early > as 1837. Indian tribes still roamed the area when a few courageous > families established a hamlet at a location that is now South 81 st > Street and West National Avenue. At that time, the area was known as > "Honey Creek" and included a few small houses, a blacksmith shop, > sawmill, post office, two churches, and a log schoolhouse. The > stagecoach passed through this settlement weekly, to and from > Wisconsin's eventual state capitol, Madison, Wisconsin. In addition > to carrying passengers, the stage also was used for hauling the mail. > > > > The little Honey Creek settlement saw its first bit of progress in > 1880 when the Chicago Northwestern Railway built its line through the > hamlet to Madison. M The railway company called its station "North > Greenfield". In 1887 the area was platted and the village officially > became "North Greenfield". > > > > In 1891, the Wisconsin State Agriculture Society established the > Wisconsin State Fair at its present location. The establishment of > the fair grounds made it necessary to provide public transportation > facilities from Milwaukee to this area. Residential, industrial, and > commercial progress was stimulated by the decision to locate the > state fair in North Greenfield. > > > > Sunday, November 25 th 1900, is a significant date in the history of > West Allis. On that day, Stutley I. Henderson, whose family was one > of the area's original settlers, called upon Charles Allis of the > Edward P. Allis Company (later named the Allis Chalmers Manufacturing > company) for the purpose of selling him property for the location of > Allis' new plant. The original Allis factory had been located in > Milwaukee. One hundred acres of land (around present day South 70 th > Street and W. Greenfield Avenue) were sold to the Allis Company at a > cost of $25,000.00. Construction of the huge plant was then started > on the location served by both the Milwaukee Road Railroad and the > Chicago Northwestern Railroad with a spur line joining the two railways. > > > > By 1902, the Allis Company has started its factory. Other industrial > plants, including the Rosenthal Corn Husker Company and the Fred > Prescott Company had also established factories in West Allis. The > industrial boom gave impetus to the building of homes for the owners > and employees of the factories with the result that hundred of > residences sprung up in the area that was still principally meadows > and woodlands. > > > > Much residential growth had taken place in the east part of the city, > west of the boundary, which now is South 56th Street, and south of > the Milwaukee Road tracks. North Greenfield was the focal shopping > area at the west limits of the city, and the area lying in both the > towns of Greenfield and Wauwatosa had two locations where there was a > concentration of residences. Civic leaders felt that it would be well > to incorporate the entire area so that it could have a village form > of government. The name of "West Allis" was adopted for the village, > which was incorporated on May 31, 1902 with a census of 1018. An > election of officers for the new village was held on July23, 1902 > with Fred W. Henderson elected village president. > > > > On April 2, 1906, Governor J. O. Davidson declared the village of > West Allis to be a city of the fourth class with a population of 2, > 306. The first mayor of the city was Frank E. Walsh. > > > > With the occurrence of World War I in 1917, the community experienced > another tremendous industrial boom. Progressive refinements and > improvements resulted in the staffing and equipping of the city's > various governmental services. The 1920s as a whole were kind to West > Allis. Prosperity, busy factories, and expansion of public > improvements made it a good place in which to live and work. The > city's population soared during the decade. Climbing out of the > depression of the 1930s West Allis experienced a new period of growth > immediately following World War II and remained a vibrant, > manufacturing based community until the early 1970s. > > > > While West Allis expanded its boundaries in a conservative manner > during the first half century of its progress, it still had only four > square miles of territory in 1953. Most of its industrially zoned > property was occupied and building lots for residential purposes were > scarce. In light of this situation, the city government annexed > several square miles of area in the towns of Greenfield and Wauwatosa > during the 1950s. After the annexations, West Allis grew to some 11.5 > square miles. > > > > By 1990, West Allis had weathered several long recessions, the worst > of which occurred in the early 1980s. Many longtime companies, > including the city's namesake, Allis-Chalmers, were hard hit. > Allis-Chalmers ceased all production in the city in the late 1980s. > > > > West Allis became a city in transition with its economy becoming > increasingly diverse. Service industries, retail and office parks, > and multifamily residences, are springing up in areas where > manufacturing concerns once dominated. While manufacturing is no > longer the backbone of the community it still plays a very important > part in West Allis' future. New industries are still attracted by > West Allis workers' reputation for skill and quality. > > > > West Allis is now (2002) the eighth largest city in the state with a > population around 63,000. The community boasts six parks, a library > with over 206, 996 books, the Wisconsin State Fair, 42 churches, 16 > public schools, more than 2000 businesses, and numerous recreational > opportunities. > > > > West Allis today still measures up to its motto of the past "A city > of Homes and Industries". West Allis remains true to its progressive > history and continues to be a leader among Wisconsin's municipalities. > > > > > At 12:51 AM 7/21/2011, you wrote: >> Nevertheless, there must have been some reason or another for the >> nomenclature and its being included on the 1934 Milwaukee map... >> West Allis itself was probably an evolution from people referring to >> E.P. Allis's second Milwaukee-area plant (originally in 1860 in the town >> of Wauwatosa, north of Greenfield--the southern limits for Wauwatosa >> township). His second plant was supposedly referred to as West Allis, in >> contrast to his smaller, original plant, located somewhere in Milwaukee. >> Somehow, the name stuck, and the village or city later became West Allis. >> >> It stands to reason that Belton probably originally bore the West Allis >> Junction name sometime after 1860 and was designated as such on older >> 19th Century maps, but subsequently was renamed. Newer maps, based upon >> the older ones, simply retained the older nomenclature >> >> Gary >> >> >> On 7/21/2011 1:31 AM, Don Ross wrote: >>> I was agent for the Chicago& North Western agent at West Allis in >>> 1952 for a month. I never heard of West Allis Junction. >>> Don R >>> >>> At 10:44 PM 7/20/2011, you wrote: >>>> Gary S: Nice photo..... location clearly marked >>>> "Belton'. >>>> >>>> Growing up in Wauwatosa at 68th and Bluemound Road, back in the 1930's, >>>> and being very interested in Railroads, I must add that I've never heard >>>> Belton refered to as West Allis Junction. >>>> >>>> Occassionaly, a map-maker will not update changeing details, while >>>> marking new issues with progressive year >>>> marked publications. >>>> >>>> Knowing when the C&NW Belt Line was built, would shed more light on this >>>> topic. >>>> >>>> Don L. -- Gary Schnabl Southwest Detroit, two miles NORTH! of Canada--Windsor, that is... Technical Editor forum From DLeistikow at webtv.net Thu Jul 21 02:58:42 2011 From: DLeistikow at webtv.net (Don Leistikow) Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2011 01:58:42 -0500 Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: 25th Anniversary: "The Trolley at East Troy" In-Reply-To: Gary Schnabl 's message of Wed, 20 Jul 2011 13:39:43 -0400 Message-ID: <22057-4E27CE22-44@storefull-3171.bay.webtv.net> A remnent of the RTL still exists relatively between 37th and 32nd streets. The huge High Voltage structures and lines, still exist. Don L. From gSchnabl at SWDetroit.com Thu Jul 21 03:14:59 2011 From: gSchnabl at SWDetroit.com (Gary Schnabl) Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2011 03:14:59 -0400 Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: West Allis Junction/Belton In-Reply-To: <0LOO008KJ7V0HH03@vms173005.mailsrvcs.net> References: <2315-4E27A0AD-68@storefull-3172.bay.webtv.net> <4E27B38B.3050305@SWDetroit.com> <0LOO007DN559WCE1@vms173009.mailsrvcs.net> <4E27C507.6040009@SWDetroit.com> <0LOO008KJ7V0HH03@vms173005.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <4E27D1F3.7080503@SWDetroit.com> The retired clerk lived in a newer ranch house across where the railrod facilities once were long ago. I forgot his name, but it started with a 'D', I think. Dineen, perhaps. He might still be living and would be a good source of CNW material. Isn't much left of Riley. It was abandoned long before the quarry west of there in Klevenville petered out. Gary On 7/21/2011 2:40 AM, Don Ross wrote: > I imagine that I missed quite a few little towns with 3300 pages, I > bet there are more misspellings. > > Riley is my grand daughter, now 2 1/2. She is a total fanatic on > Thomas. We went on the Grapevine train and now she yells "toot toot" > all the time and runs around the house with her Thomas > train. Saturday, we are going to ride the Trinity Express with > Virginia's great-grandson and Riley. They are air conditioned. > > Don R > > Send me a picture of Riley, the CNW hamlet. -- Gary Schnabl Southwest Detroit, two miles NORTH! of Canada--Windsor, that is... Technical Editor forum From gSchnabl at SWDetroit.com Thu Jul 21 03:22:37 2011 From: gSchnabl at SWDetroit.com (Gary Schnabl) Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2011 03:22:37 -0400 Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: 25th Anniversary: "The Trolley at East Troy" In-Reply-To: <22057-4E27CE22-44@storefull-3171.bay.webtv.net> References: <22057-4E27CE22-44@storefull-3171.bay.webtv.net> Message-ID: <4E27D3BD.6090708@SWDetroit.com> Is there anything remaining at all of the older 39th Street to 45th Street viaduct segment of the older rapid-transit PROW from Merrill Park/Clybourn? On 7/21/2011 2:58 AM, Don Leistikow wrote: > A remnent of the RTL still exists relatively between 37th and 32nd > streets. The huge High Voltage structures and lines, still exist. > > Don L. -- Gary Schnabl Southwest Detroit, two miles NORTH! of Canada--Windsor, that is... Technical Editor forum From ktjosephson at embarqmail.com Thu Jul 21 10:06:02 2011 From: ktjosephson at embarqmail.com (Ken and Tracie) Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2011 07:06:02 -0700 Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: West Allis Junction/Belton References: <2315-4E27A0AD-68@storefull-3172.bay.webtv.net> <4E27B38B.3050305@SWDetroit.com> <0LOO007DN559WCE1@vms173009.mailsrvcs.net> <4E27C507.6040009@SWDetroit.com> <0LOO008KJ7V0HH03@vms173005.mailsrvcs.net> <4E27D1F3.7080503@SWDetroit.com> Message-ID: One quick question I've been meaning to ask, which is related to the subject. Was "Wiscona" an unincorporated villgae or town? Or was it just a designation created by one of the railroads which met there? Thanks in advance for any replies. K. From don0731 at gte.net Thu Jul 21 10:41:00 2011 From: don0731 at gte.net (Don Ross) Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2011 09:41:00 -0500 Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: West Allis Junction/Belton In-Reply-To: References: <2315-4E27A0AD-68@storefull-3172.bay.webtv.net> <4E27B38B.3050305@SWDetroit.com> <0LOO007DN559WCE1@vms173009.mailsrvcs.net> <4E27C507.6040009@SWDetroit.com> <0LOO008KJ7V0HH03@vms173005.mailsrvcs.net> <4E27D1F3.7080503@SWDetroit.com> Message-ID: <0LOO007XAU4PPBL2@vms173017.mailsrvcs.net> I think it was only the tower. Don R I worked there too in the 1950s. At 09:06 AM 7/21/2011, you wrote: >One quick question I've been meaning to ask, which is related to the >subject. > >Was "Wiscona" an unincorporated villgae or town? Or was it just a >designation created by one of the railroads which met there? > >Thanks in advance for any replies. > >K. From gSchnabl at SWDetroit.com Thu Jul 21 12:42:48 2011 From: gSchnabl at SWDetroit.com (Gary Schnabl) Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2011 12:42:48 -0400 Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: West Allis Junction/Belton In-Reply-To: <4E27D1F3.7080503@SWDetroit.com> References: <2315-4E27A0AD-68@storefull-3172.bay.webtv.net> <4E27B38B.3050305@SWDetroit.com> <0LOO007DN559WCE1@vms173009.mailsrvcs.net> <4E27C507.6040009@SWDetroit.com> <0LOO008KJ7V0HH03@vms173005.mailsrvcs.net> <4E27D1F3.7080503@SWDetroit.com> Message-ID: <4E285708.2040000@SWDetroit.com> I was close: Deneen (http://www.cnwvets.org/Marc%20Deneen%20Remembers.html ). He died three years ago. But his son is probably an engineer for the UP. Gary On 7/21/2011 3:14 AM, Gary Schnabl wrote: > The retired clerk lived in a newer ranch house across where the railrod > facilities once were long ago. I forgot his name, but it started with a > 'D', I think. Dineen, perhaps. He might still be living and would be a > good source of CNW material. Isn't much left of Riley. It was abandoned > long before the quarry west of there in Klevenville petered out. > > Gary > > On 7/21/2011 2:40 AM, Don Ross wrote: >> I imagine that I missed quite a few little towns with 3300 pages, I >> bet there are more misspellings. >> >> Riley is my grand daughter, now 2 1/2. She is a total fanatic on >> Thomas. We went on the Grapevine train and now she yells "toot toot" >> all the time and runs around the house with her Thomas >> train. Saturday, we are going to ride the Trinity Express with >> Virginia's great-grandson and Riley. They are air conditioned. >> >> Don R >> >> Send me a picture of Riley, the CNW hamlet. -- Gary Schnabl Southwest Detroit, two miles NORTH! of Canada--Windsor, that is... Technical Editor forum From ktjosephson at embarqmail.com Fri Jul 22 11:06:42 2011 From: ktjosephson at embarqmail.com (Ken and Tracie) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2011 08:06:42 -0700 Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Another C&NW Question References: <2315-4E27A0AD-68@storefull-3172.bay.webtv.net> <0LOO008X34PFHHP2@vms173005.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <34FC6E0F986249E9B5F420EC93F391EA@KTJosephson> Why did the C&NW abandon the trackage between Lakeshore Junction (at Capitol Drive/Lake Street), through Shorewood to their Shore Line? Why did they decide to send traffic to the northwest towards Wiscona, then east to regain the Shore Line? Also, what the routing for northbound C&NW passenger trains staring in 1966, when they started using the Milwaukee Road depot? K. From don0731 at gte.net Fri Jul 22 11:41:45 2011 From: don0731 at gte.net (Don Ross) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2011 10:41:45 -0500 Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: Another C&NW Question In-Reply-To: <34FC6E0F986249E9B5F420EC93F391EA@KTJosephson> References: <2315-4E27A0AD-68@storefull-3172.bay.webtv.net> <0LOO008X34PFHHP2@vms173005.mailsrvcs.net> <34FC6E0F986249E9B5F420EC93F391EA@KTJosephson> Message-ID: <0LOQ00M46RLOK9B5@vms173017.mailsrvcs.net> Shore Line freight came from Butler. They came from the Belt Line to Wiscona and then to The Shore Line. The only traffic left through Shorewood was passenger trains. I left Milwaukee in January 1960. (51 years ago??????) Don R At 10:06 AM 7/22/2011, you wrote: >Why did the C&NW abandon the trackage between Lakeshore Junction (at Capitol >Drive/Lake Street), through Shorewood to their Shore Line? Why did they >decide to send traffic to the northwest towards Wiscona, then east to regain >the Shore Line? > >Also, what the routing for northbound C&NW passenger trains staring in 1966, >when they started using the Milwaukee Road depot? > >K. From ktjosephson at embarqmail.com Fri Jul 22 12:24:07 2011 From: ktjosephson at embarqmail.com (Ken and Tracie) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2011 09:24:07 -0700 Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: Another C&NW Question References: <2315-4E27A0AD-68@storefull-3172.bay.webtv.net> <0LOO008X34PFHHP2@vms173005.mailsrvcs.net> <34FC6E0F986249E9B5F420EC93F391EA@KTJosephson> <0LOQ00M46RLOK9B5@vms173017.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <082E52B25FD749BFB17209FBAE47D089@KTJosephson> Correct, Don. But until 1929, there was a segment of line which ran north from Capitol Drive. It ran through Whitefish Bay into Fox Point and was part of the Shore Line. It was paralleled by the Route 15 car line between Henry Clay Street and Silver Spring Drive. After it was removed, passenger trains had to run northwest along Estebrook Park to Wiscona, then travel east through Glendale and rejoin the Shore Line near the Fox Point-Whitefish Bay border. I believe this was the original main line between Capitol Drive and Fox Point. I don't believe any of us were around or were old enough to remember this line.It is shown on old maps. The junction where the more familiar line along Estebrook Park branched away was designated "Lakeshore Junction." Capitol Drive was named Lake Street in those days. K. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Don Ross" To: Sent: Friday, July 22, 2011 8:41 AM Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: Another C&NW Question > Shore Line freight came from Butler. They came from the Belt Line to > Wiscona and then to The Shore Line. The only traffic left through > Shorewood was passenger trains. > > I left Milwaukee in January 1960. (51 years ago??????) > > Don R > > At 10:06 AM 7/22/2011, you wrote: >>Why did the C&NW abandon the trackage between Lakeshore Junction (at >>Capitol >>Drive/Lake Street), through Shorewood to their Shore Line? Why did they >>decide to send traffic to the northwest towards Wiscona, then east to >>regain >>the Shore Line? >> >>Also, what the routing for northbound C&NW passenger trains staring in >>1966, >>when they started using the Milwaukee Road depot? >> >>K. > > > From gSchnabl at SWDetroit.com Fri Jul 22 17:09:38 2011 From: gSchnabl at SWDetroit.com (Gary Schnabl) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2011 17:09:38 -0400 Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: Another C&NW Question In-Reply-To: <082E52B25FD749BFB17209FBAE47D089@KTJosephson> References: <2315-4E27A0AD-68@storefull-3172.bay.webtv.net> <0LOO008X34PFHHP2@vms173005.mailsrvcs.net> <34FC6E0F986249E9B5F420EC93F391EA@KTJosephson> <0LOQ00M46RLOK9B5@vms173017.mailsrvcs.net> <082E52B25FD749BFB17209FBAE47D089@KTJosephson> Message-ID: <4E29E712.3080202@SWDetroit.com> According to the CNW web pages, Capitol Drive was also called Atwater Road and Mineral Road. I can understand why Atwater (Atwater Park), but why Mineral? The Estabrrok Park area had some quarrying, I though, at one time. Did Capitol Drive really have all those names for various segments? My grandparents' truck farm was listed as being on Capitol Drive (4206 W, using modern PO address numbering, in the town of Wauwatosa, earlier) from around 1910 on, according to census data. Gary On 7/22/2011 12:24 PM, Ken and Tracie wrote: > Correct, Don. > > But until 1929, there was a segment of line which ran north from Capitol > Drive. It ran through Whitefish Bay into Fox Point and was part of the Shore > Line. > > It was paralleled by the Route 15 car line between Henry Clay Street and > Silver Spring Drive. After it was removed, passenger trains had to run > northwest along Estebrook Park to Wiscona, then travel east through Glendale > and rejoin the Shore Line near the Fox Point-Whitefish Bay border. > > I believe this was the original main line between Capitol Drive and Fox > Point. > > I don't believe any of us were around or were old enough to remember this > line.It is shown on old maps. The junction where the more familiar line > along Estebrook Park branched away was designated "Lakeshore Junction." > Capitol Drive was named Lake Street in those days. > > K. > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Don Ross" > To: > Sent: Friday, July 22, 2011 8:41 AM > Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: Another C&NW Question > > >> Shore Line freight came from Butler. They came from the Belt Line to >> Wiscona and then to The Shore Line. The only traffic left through >> Shorewood was passenger trains. >> >> I left Milwaukee in January 1960. (51 years ago??????) >> >> Don R >> >> At 10:06 AM 7/22/2011, you wrote: >>> Why did the C&NW abandon the trackage between Lakeshore Junction (at >>> Capitol >>> Drive/Lake Street), through Shorewood to their Shore Line? Why did they >>> decide to send traffic to the northwest towards Wiscona, then east to >>> regain >>> the Shore Line? >>> >>> Also, what the routing for northbound C&NW passenger trains staring in >>> 1966, >>> when they started using the Milwaukee Road depot? >>> >>> K. -- Gary Schnabl Southwest Detroit, two miles NORTH! of Canada--Windsor, that is... Technical Editor forum From wlukomski at msn.com Sun Jul 24 11:46:14 2011 From: wlukomski at msn.com (William Lukomski) Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2011 10:46:14 -0500 Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: 25th Anniversary: "The Trolley at East Troy" In-Reply-To: <24022-4E24FA6D-102@storefull-3173.bay.webtv.net> References: William Lukomski 's message of Mon, 18 Jul Message-ID: Yes Ed Lukomski is my uncle and godfather. He currently resides in Florida. I will try to resend the photos again. William A. Lukomski > From: DLeistikow at webtv.net > Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2011 22:30:53 -0500 > To: milwaukee-electric at lists.dementia.org > Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: 25th Anniversary: "The Trolley at East Troy" > > Willilam L and list: Sorry,my 'webber' will not download your photos, > even though they are in JPG format. First time that has ever happened. > Perhpas this may be due to some additianal material alolng with the > photos. > > Anyway.... are you related to one Ed Lukomski (Lutomski) (?), who was > the C&NW agent at their 3rd ward yard in Milwaukee? That would be back > in the 1960's and later. > > As i was then the Traffic Manager for Roundy's in Wauwatosa, served by > the C&NW, some traffic that came in on the MILW, was switched from the > Burnham yard to the C&NW via direct connection in the viniticty of 1st > and Greenfield. > > Persables then from the west and southwest would arrive Miwlaukee on the > fitth morning whereas, the C&NW arrivalas frm the same origins would > arrive Butler on the sixth morning. The days dely on the C&NW, was due > to re-classifiying at Proviso. > > Those were the days, my friend......... > > Don L. > > From x779 at webtv.net Wed Jul 27 10:11:13 2011 From: x779 at webtv.net (Louis Rugani) Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2011 14:11:13 GMT Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Milwaukee will again be a Streetcar City. Message-ID: Milwaukee streetcars will roll again for the first time since March of 1958. The Milwaukee Common Council Tuesday morning approved its long-discussed two-mile downtown Milwaukee streetcar project. Mayor Tom Barrett said in praising the majority vote ???It???s a step forward for economic development. It???s going to improve mass transit and put people work. Now is the time to push our sleeves and get to work on it,??? Barrett said, adding a prediction that residents outside downtown "will want to extend to extend it to their neighborhood.??? Aldermen voted 10-5 to build the line, after a twenty-year hiatus where the streetcar project was discussed ad infinitum. Downtown Alderman Robert Bauman and east side Aldermen Nik Kovac said the streetcar project will create construction jobs, stimulate economic development along the streetcar route and improve mobility in the downtown area, Bauman saying "This will be a catalyst for real estate development. That???s been the experience of every other city that???s done this.??? Kenosha's two-mile system was the nation's first 21st-Century streetcar project, and Milwaukee officials were often seen downtown photographing the system and touring the shop facilities. Streetcars attract more riders than buses because passengers prefer to ride rails that point out the route, Bauman said. $54.9 million in federal funds were allocated to Milwaukee in 1991 for mass transit but were never spent because local officials could never agree on what the money would be used for. Finally, Congress allocated those funds to be spent only for the downtown streetcar project. Milwaukee will provide $9.7 million, to come from the Cathedral Place tax incremental financing (TIF) district. Bauman and Kovac argued that the federal funds could only be used for the streetcar project and would be sent to another city if the project was rejected by the council. Five aldermen - Jim Bohl, Joe Davis, Robert Donovan, Michael Murphy and Joe Dudzik - voted in opposition to the streetcar project, saying they didn't understand future operating and maintenance costs. At one point Donovan proposed an amendment to have the project decided by a referendum, but that was shot down by a 12-3 vote. Kovac attacked Donovan's motionm saying that aldermen should vote on the project just the same as they vote for any public works project. ???Do people expect us to come to them (in a referendum) every time we spend millions of dollars on a public works project???? Kovac said. The streetcar route will run from the Amtrak Intermodal Station east on St. Paul Avenue, north on Broadway, east on Wells Street north on Van Buren Street (heading south it will use Jackson Street) and then east on Ogden Avenue to the Farwell Avenue intersection. Several business and civic officials wrote letters of support for the streetcar project. For more information: www.milwaukeestreetcar.com =Lou= ~~~~~~~~~~ **-=\/=-** ~~~~~~~~~~ The opposite of bravery is not cowardice, but conformity.  Robert Anthony From sunrise at bikethehoan.com Wed Jul 27 23:56:35 2011 From: sunrise at bikethehoan.com (William Sell) Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2011 22:56:35 -0500 Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: Milwaukee will again be a Streetcar City. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4e30ddd9.0607e50a.6ed7.15d2@mx.google.com> And many citizens wrote letters of support for the project, Lou Bill AAt 09:11 AM 7/27/2011, you wrote: >Milwaukee streetcars will roll again for the first time since March of 1958. >The Milwaukee Common Council Tuesday morning >approved its long-discussed two-mile downtown >Milwaukee streetcar project. Mayor Tom Barrett >said in praising the majority vote ???It???s a >step forward for economic development. It???s >going to improve mass transit and put people >work. Now is the time to push our sleeves and >get to work on it,??? Barrett said, adding a >prediction that residents outside downtown "will >want to extend to extend it to their neighborhood.??? > >Aldermen voted 10-5 to build the line, after a >twenty-year hiatus where the streetcar project >was discussed ad infinitum. Downtown Alderman >Robert Bauman and east side Aldermen Nik Kovac >said the streetcar project will create >construction jobs, stimulate economic >development along the streetcar route and >improve mobility in the downtown area, Bauman >saying "This will be a catalyst for real estate >development. That???s been the experience of >every other city that???s done this.??? > >Kenosha's two-mile system was the nation's first >21st-Century streetcar project, and Milwaukee >officials were often seen downtown photographing >the system and touring the shop facilities. >Streetcars attract more riders than buses >because passengers prefer to ride rails that point out the route, Bauman said. > >$54.9 million in federal funds were allocated to >Milwaukee in 1991 for mass transit but were >never spent because local officials could never >agree on what the money would be used for. >Finally, Congress allocated those funds to be >spent only for the downtown streetcar project. >Milwaukee will provide $9.7 million, to come >from the Cathedral Place tax incremental financing (TIF) district. > >Bauman and Kovac argued that the federal funds >could only be used for the streetcar project and >would be sent to another city if the project was rejected by the council. > >Five aldermen - Jim Bohl, Joe Davis, Robert >Donovan, Michael Murphy and Joe Dudzik - voted >in opposition to the streetcar project, saying >they didn't understand future operating and >maintenance costs. At one point Donovan proposed >an amendment to have the project decided by a >referendum, but that was shot down by a 12-3 >vote. Kovac attacked Donovan's motionm saying >that aldermen should vote on the project just >the same as they vote for any public works project. > >???Do people expect us to come to them (in a >referendum) every time we spend millions of >dollars on a public works project???? Kovac said. > >The streetcar route will run from the Amtrak >Intermodal Station east on St. Paul Avenue, >north on Broadway, east on Wells Street north on >Van Buren Street (heading south it will use >Jackson Street) and then east on Ogden Avenue to >the Farwell Avenue intersection. >Several business and civic officials wrote >letters of support for the streetcar project. > >For more information: www.milwaukeestreetcar.com > >=Lou= > >~~~~~~~~~~ **-=\/=-** ~~~~~~~~~~ > >The opposite of bravery is not cowardice, but conformity. Robert Anthony ======================== "This is what you shall do: Love the earth and sun and the animals, despise riches, give alms to every one that asks, stand up for the stupid and crazy, devote your income and labor to others, hate tyrants, argue not concerning God, have patience and indulgence toward the people, take off your hat to nothing known or unknown or to any man or number of men, go freely with powerful uneducated persons and with the young and with the mothers of families, read these leaves in the open air every season of every year of your life, reexamine all you have been told ..." --Walt Whitman