From ktjosephson at embarqmail.com  Tue Mar  1 00:08:18 2011
From: ktjosephson at embarqmail.com (Ken and Tracie)
Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2011 21:08:18 -0800
Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Fun Billboard, Just in Time for the Spring Construction Season
Message-ID: <29F7B2FB5DFC42FBA7752CBB483D7C9D@KTJosephson>



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From wlukomski at msn.com  Mon Mar 14 22:50:56 2011
From: wlukomski at msn.com (William Lukomski)
Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2011 21:50:56 -0500
Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: Fun Billboard, Just in Time for the Spring
 Construction Season
In-Reply-To: <29F7B2FB5DFC42FBA7752CBB483D7C9D@KTJosephson>
References: <29F7B2FB5DFC42FBA7752CBB483D7C9D@KTJosephson>
Message-ID: <BLU162-w33C930A040DA5BA35E4826B3CF0@phx.gbl>

Hi I am new to your group. I remember about 20 years ago there was a field/landfill around surrounded by 116th st, Morgan ave, Howard ave and 124th st. Somewhere back there was what I remember to be a possible horse trolley from the late 1800's. It was short with 6 or 7 windows on each side and an open platform on the front. It was in pretty bad shape then. I am going to see if I can find it this summer and take pictures. If I do I will send them to you. I remembered that trolley and that is what kindled my interest. Then I found out about TMER&L which I was never around for. I am amazed by it all. I also rembered a bridge by root river parkway which I remembered was early 1900's from the stamp on the side of it. After researching I found it was part of the line that went to St Martins. 




> From: ktjosephson at embarqmail.com
> To: milwaukee-electric at lists.dementia.org
> Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Fun Billboard, Just in Time for the Spring Construction Season
> Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2011 21:08:18 -0800
> 
> Content-Type: text/plain;
> 	charset="iso-8859-1"
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
> 
> 
> 
> -- Attached file removed by Ecartis and put at URL below --
> -- Type: image/jpeg
> -- Size: 89k (91571 bytes)
> -- URL : http://lists.dementia.org/files/milwaukee-electric/missme1a.jpg
> 
> 
> 
 		 	   		  


From sbgreig_m1 at yahoo.com  Tue Mar 15 00:07:28 2011
From: sbgreig_m1 at yahoo.com (Scott Greig)
Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2011 21:07:28 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: Fun Billboard, Just in Time for the Spring Construction Season
In-Reply-To: <BLU162-w33C930A040DA5BA35E4826B3CF0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <962302.31149.qm@web120720.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>

That would be something to see!!

--- On Mon, 3/14/11, William Lukomski <wlukomski at msn.com> wrote:

From: William Lukomski <wlukomski at msn.com>
Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: Fun Billboard, Just in Time for the Spring Construction Season
To: milwaukee-electric at lists.dementia.org
Date: Monday, March 14, 2011, 9:50 PM

Hi I am new to your group. I remember about 20 years ago there was a field/landfill around surrounded by 116th st, Morgan ave, Howard ave and 124th st. Somewhere back there was what I remember to be a possible horse trolley from the late 1800's. It was short with 6 or 7 windows on each side and an open platform on the front. It was in pretty bad shape then. I am going to see if I can find it this summer and take pictures. If I do I will send them to you. I remembered that trolley and that is what kindled my interest. Then I found out about TMER&L which I was never around for. I am amazed by it all. I also rembered a bridge by root river parkway which I remembered was early 1900's from the stamp on the side of it. After researching I found it was part of the line that went to St Martins. 




> From: ktjosephson at embarqmail.com
> To: milwaukee-electric at lists.dementia.org
> Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Fun Billboard, Just in Time for the Spring Construction Season
> Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2011 21:08:18 -0800
> 
> Content-Type: text/plain;
> ??? charset="iso-8859-1"
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
> 
> 
> 
> -- Attached file removed by Ecartis and put at URL below --
> -- Type: image/jpeg
> -- Size: 89k (91571 bytes)
> -- URL : http://lists.dementia.org/files/milwaukee-electric/missme1a.jpg
> 
> 
> 
 ??? ???????? ?????? ??? ? 




From ktjosephson at embarqmail.com  Wed Mar 16 11:28:31 2011
From: ktjosephson at embarqmail.com (Ken and Tracie)
Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2011 08:28:31 -0700
Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Name of the Milwaukee Train Station During 1969
Message-ID: <E7534687A6BF4345A71503EC9B97FB23@KTJosephson>

Hi John,
I'm going to put this one out to the Milwaukee Electric Discussion List. I have heard people refer to the station on St. Paul Avenue as "Union Station" since both the Milwaukee Road and the Chicago and Northwestern used it, but I do not recall what the station's offical name was.  Guys?

Today, it is a combination rail and bus station.

K.


From joelambelang at sbcglobal.net  Wed Mar 16 11:47:31 2011
From: joelambelang at sbcglobal.net (Joel Ambelang)
Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2011 08:47:31 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: Name of the Milwaukee Train Station During 1969
In-Reply-To: <E7534687A6BF4345A71503EC9B97FB23@KTJosephson>
Message-ID: <136347.83487.qm@web81904.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

As far as I know, dating to the early 40s, The Milwaukee Road? station was always The Milwaukee road and North Western had its own station on the lake front at the head of Wisconsin Ave. Diagonally across the street from the Milwaukee road was the transit shed where Greyhound and other bus lines shared the Electric Co. shed with interurbans.
Joel

--- On Wed, 3/16/11, Ken and Tracie <ktjosephson at embarqmail.com> wrote:

From: Ken and Tracie <ktjosephson at embarqmail.com>
Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Name of the Milwaukee Train Station During 1969
To: "John Vorhaus" <jvx at vorza.com>
Cc: Milwaukee-electric at dementia.org
Date: Wednesday, March 16, 2011, 10:28 AM

Hi John,
I'm going to put this one out to the Milwaukee Electric Discussion List. I have heard people refer to the station on St. Paul Avenue as "Union Station" since both the Milwaukee Road and the Chicago and Northwestern used it, but I do not recall what the station's offical name was.? Guys?

Today, it is a combination rail and bus station.

K.




From sunrise at bikethehoan.com  Wed Mar 16 12:10:56 2011
From: sunrise at bikethehoan.com (William Sell)
Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2011 11:10:56 -0500
Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: Fun Billboard, Just in Time for
  the Spring Construction Season
In-Reply-To: <BLU162-w33C930A040DA5BA35E4826B3CF0@phx.gbl>
References: <29F7B2FB5DFC42FBA7752CBB483D7C9D@KTJosephson>
 <BLU162-w33C930A040DA5BA35E4826B3CF0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <4d80e108.6069e50a.3d71.310a@mx.google.com>

I rode the part of the TMER&L that turned around in St. Martins. At 
this time Hales Corners was the last passenger stop. The leg to St. 
Martins allowed the front of the Interurban to remain in front for 
the return trip.  Those tracks were used by a co-op to bring 
materials to their store, near the turnaround.

Near the Hales Corners station there was a very simple wooden 
delivery platform which would allow a truck to drive up to the level 
of a boxcar door and load or unload.

Hope you find the picture you want.

Bill Sell





At 09:50 PM 3/14/2011, you wrote:
>Hi I am new to your group. I remember about 20 years ago there was a 
>field/landfill around surrounded by 116th st, Morgan ave, Howard ave 
>and 124th st. Somewhere back there was what I remember to be a 
>possible horse trolley from the late 1800's. It was short with 6 or 
>7 windows on each side and an open platform on the front. It was in 
>pretty bad shape then. I am going to see if I can find it this 
>summer and take pictures. If I do I will send them to you. I 
>remembered that trolley and that is what kindled my interest. Then I 
>found out about TMER&L which I was never around for. I am amazed by 
>it all. I also rembered a bridge by root river parkway which I 
>remembered was early 1900's from the stamp on the side of it. After 
>researching I found it was part of the line that went to St Martins.
>
>
>
>
> > From: ktjosephson at embarqmail.com
> > To: milwaukee-electric at lists.dementia.org
> > Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Fun Billboard, Just in Time for the 
> Spring Construction Season
> > Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2011 21:08:18 -0800
> >
> > Content-Type: text/plain;
> >       charset="iso-8859-1"
> > Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
> >
> >
> >
> > -- Attached file removed by Ecartis and put at URL below --
> > -- Type: image/jpeg
> > -- Size: 89k (91571 bytes)
> > -- URL : http://lists.dementia.org/files/milwaukee-electric/missme1a.jpg
> >
> >
> >
>

**********************************
"So much has been destroyed, I have cast my lot with those who, age 
after age, perversely, with no extraordinary power, reconstitute the 
world." -- Adrienne Rich  



From DLeistikow at webtv.net  Wed Mar 16 13:05:23 2011
From: DLeistikow at webtv.net (Don L. Leistikow)
Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2011 12:05:23 -0500
Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: Name of the Milwaukee Train Station
	During 1969
In-Reply-To: Joel Ambelang <joelambelang@sbcglobal.net>'s message of Wed,
	16 Mar 2011 08:47:31 -0700 (PDT)
Message-ID: <5381-4D80EDD3-573@storefull-3171.bay.webtv.net>

Joel A and list;   You're on track............    

Back a bit further, the Union Station was so known as that as, the Soo
Line passenger train did enter it up to 1938.      

I've yet to see a photo of a Soo Line train in that Station.   Anyone?
..................       

As for the TMER&L's Public Service Building, back in the period before
1940, the Cudahy-South Milwaukee trains came in on track two.  Company
owned and operated Wisconsin Motor Bus lInes (a TM sub-corporation) did
enter on track one.                                                          

Motor Coach Age Nov-Dec 1981 issue says that TMER&T entered into an
agreement with Northland Greyhound, to allow NGL to begin to use the
PSB, in the Spring of 1940.  WMBL was already sharing the PSB with
Midland Coach Lines and Interstate Stages.                      

On August 3, 1941, the truncated Route 3 Cudahy suburban line, operated
with the ten articulated trains 1031-32~1049-50, was abandoned.  A new
Route 66 replaced this service which, strangely did not enter the PSB
but, loaded at the sidewalk on the NW corner of 3rd & Michigan.                                                  

PSB Track two, then became additional space for Motor Coach loading.
Rapid Transit cars continued to use tracks 3, 4, 5 and 6, for loading.
A wall separated the Terminal from the service area, tracks 7 thru 11
which comprised the little known fact that it was Centrail Car Station,
fully equipped for monthly inspections and light maintenance.                                            

The last Master Superintendent was William 'Bill' 'Schwerin of Cedarburg
and past employee on the Milwaukee Northern, then transfered to TMER&L
when the former MN Cedarburg Shop was closed.  He stayed on board and
ended his career with Speedrail.  He was the last employee, who came to
work at a small office in a Container Car M (?) behind the Office
building at 940 W. St.Paul Avenue.  

This location was just east of the elevated track that that spanned
Hibernia Street between 10th and 12th streets.                  

There is a separate story about Abel & Bach Luggage Company, if anyone's
interested.                                               


Don L.     .



From DLeistikow at webtv.net  Wed Mar 16 13:43:18 2011
From: DLeistikow at webtv.net (Don L. Leistikow)
Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2011 12:43:18 -0500
Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: Fun Billboard, Just in Time for the
	Spring Construction Season
In-Reply-To: William Sell <sunrise@bikethehoan.com>'s message of Wed, 16
	Mar 2011 11:10:56 -0500
Message-ID: <5383-4D80F6B6-442@storefull-3171.bay.webtv.net>

Bill Sell and list:   Hillcrest, as it was known, was the site of a very
small Standard Oil facility, a local supply of oil, perhaps, possibly
gasoline.  No one on duty, just the round storage tanks.             

In the old days, tracing old timetables and services, it was apparent
that while some cars ran through to Burlington and East Troy, it was a
common practice to run a stub car between St.Martins and Burlington.
This car, one of the 1107 - 1110 series former MN rebuilds, would use
the wye to turn the car.  So, an East Troy car would then disembark
passengers for Stations on the Burlington line.  Eastbound (north)
passengers coming in from Burlingtion, would make connection with an
Eastbound car from East Troy at St.Martins.                                      

The old original substation, was cleared out and the mainfloor used as a
waiting room for those passengers who lived there or simply made
connecitons.             

With he advent of total abandonment of the B and ET lines in 1938 and
1939, the service was cut back to Hales Corners.  The three wooden
former MN cars, rebuilt into double-ended, air door suburban cars (1102,
1103 and 1104) between PSB and WJ, were now to be used for through
service via WJ to HC                                                          

As the Standard Oil facility and the WEPCO Line Pole Yard were still
located at Hillcrest, trackage was maintained to that location.
Rush-hour traffic became too heavy with gas rationing during WW 2,
requiring either duplex trans or two singles in mu, to handle the
crowds. To accomodate the single ended cars, a loop was constructed at
Hillcrest. Traffic became so strong that meets were arranged at Oklahoma
and Brookfield (Layton Avenue) Sidings.                           

Don L .     

  



From gSchnabl at SWDetroit.com  Wed Mar 16 17:02:17 2011
From: gSchnabl at SWDetroit.com (Gary Schnabl)
Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2011 17:02:17 -0400
Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: Name of the Milwaukee Train Station
 During 1969
In-Reply-To: <5381-4D80EDD3-573@storefull-3171.bay.webtv.net>
References: <5381-4D80EDD3-573@storefull-3171.bay.webtv.net>
Message-ID: <4D812559.3010704@SWDetroit.com>

On 3/16/2011 1:05 PM, Don L. Leistikow wrote:
> Joel A and list;   You're on track............
>
> Back a bit further, the Union Station was so known as that as, the Soo
> Line passenger train did enter it up to 1938.
>
> I've yet to see a photo of a Soo Line train in that Station.   Anyone?
> ..................
>
> As for the TMER&L's Public Service Building, back in the period before
> 1940, the Cudahy-South Milwaukee trains came in on track two.  Company
> owned and operated Wisconsin Motor Bus lInes (a TM sub-corporation) did
> enter on track one.
>
> Motor Coach Age Nov-Dec 1981 issue says that TMER&T entered into an
> agreement with Northland Greyhound, to allow NGL to begin to use the
> PSB, in the Spring of 1940.  WMBL was already sharing the PSB with
> Midland Coach Lines and Interstate Stages.
>
> On August 3, 1941, the truncated Route 3 Cudahy suburban line, operated
> with the ten articulated trains 1031-32~1049-50, was abandoned.  A new
> Route 66 replaced this service which, strangely did not enter the PSB
> but, loaded at the sidewalk on the NW corner of 3rd&  Michigan.
>
> PSB Track two, then became additional space for Motor Coach loading.
> Rapid Transit cars continued to use tracks 3, 4, 5 and 6, for loading.
> A wall separated the Terminal from the service area, tracks 7 thru 11
> which comprised the little known fact that it was Centrail Car Station,
> fully equipped for monthly inspections and light maintenance.
>
> The last Master Superintendent was William 'Bill' 'Schwerin of Cedarburg
> and past employee on the Milwaukee Northern, then transfered to TMER&L
> when the former MN Cedarburg Shop was closed.  He stayed on board and
> ended his career with Speedrail.  He was the last employee, who came to
> work at a small office in a Container Car M (?) behind the Office
> building at 940 W. St.Paul Avenue.
>
> This location was just east of the elevated track that that spanned
> Hibernia Street between 10th and 12th streets.
>
> There is a separate story about Abel&  Bach Luggage Company, if anyone's
> interested.
>
>
> Don L.
This 1950s or 1960s aerial photo just barely shows the luggage company, 
the subway entrance, and some visible remnants of the PROW between 7th 
and 8th Streets in the right-bottom corner. Can anybody peg the year of 
the photo better than the description on the retro Milwaukee website?

Just what exactly did the subway consist of: its plans, what actually 
was built, and what became of it and when? I once saw a very grainy 
photo of it in a Milwaukee Journal article around 1940 or so. Are there 
better photos available?

http://www.retrocom.com/retromilw/Mke-Downtown50s.jpg

I'll bite on the Abel & Bach story... Was that the company that the 
interurban people complained about when they refused to relocate for the 
subway? If it was, it appears as if they survived longer than the 
interurban. So, not moving would have been a good "move" (pun 
intended...) for them.

Back during 1965, I lived right next door to the Oakland carbarn for 
three months, then moved to the corner of Park and Murray, where the 
streetcar turned the corner around. When the streetcar stopped running, 
did the trackless trolley replacement run along the former streetcar 
tracks at that corner? Somehow, a trackless trolley might have been a 
tight fit for that residential corner. I remember taking that streetcar 
from Oakland and Capitol Drive after transferring from the #62 bus when 
going to the Boys' Club on Franklin Place and Brady, starting when eight 
years old in 1951.

One last item: Had the interurban still been around in 1965, I would 
have used it in order to commute to/from WAUK and Park and Murray, when 
I was its chief engineer at age 22. It would have been a 6000 to 7000 
foot hike back and forth from its closest stop--a leisurely 20-minute hike.

Gary

-- 

Gary Schnabl
Southwest Detroit, two miles NORTH! of Canada--Windsor, that is...






From yance at oldmilwaukee.net  Wed Mar 16 17:40:55 2011
From: yance at oldmilwaukee.net (Y Marti)
Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2011 17:40:55 -0400
Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: Name of the Milwaukee Train Station
 During 1969
In-Reply-To: <4D812559.3010704@SWDetroit.com>
References: <5381-4D80EDD3-573@storefull-3171.bay.webtv.net>
 <4D812559.3010704@SWDetroit.com>
Message-ID: <20110316174055.17213kndewcz7vk0@horde.oldmilwaukee.net>

The picture would have been soon after the Public Museum was open in 1963.

>
>
Quoting Gary Schnabl <gSchnabl at SWDetroit.com>:

This 1950s or 1960s aerial photo just barely shows the luggage  
company, the subway entrance, and some visible remnants of the PROW  
between 7th
and 8th Streets in the right-bottom corner. Can anybody peg the year of
the photo better than the description on the retro Milwaukee website?
>
>





From gSchnabl at SWDetroit.com  Wed Mar 16 17:52:25 2011
From: gSchnabl at SWDetroit.com (Gary Schnabl)
Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2011 17:52:25 -0400
Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: Name of the Milwaukee Train Station
 During 1969
In-Reply-To: <20110316174055.17213kndewcz7vk0@horde.oldmilwaukee.net>
References: <5381-4D80EDD3-573@storefull-3171.bay.webtv.net> <4D812559.3010704@SWDetroit.com> <20110316174055.17213kndewcz7vk0@horde.oldmilwaukee.net>
Message-ID: <4D813119.2080102@SWDetroit.com>

A fortunate timing for that photo because 1964 was the year of 
construction east of the then East-West Freeway, wiping out much of 
everything along the interurban route, save for the Aldrich Chemical 
building.

On 3/16/2011 5:40 PM, Y Marti wrote:
> The picture would have been soon after the Public Museum was open in 1963.
>
>>
> Quoting Gary Schnabl<gSchnabl at SWDetroit.com>:
>
> This 1950s or 1960s aerial photo just barely shows the luggage
> company, the subway entrance, and some visible remnants of the PROW
> between 7th
> and 8th Streets in the right-bottom corner. Can anybody peg the year of
> the photo better than the description on the retro Milwaukee website?


-- 

Gary Schnabl
Southwest Detroit, two miles NORTH! of Canada--Windsor, that is...





From DLeistikow at webtv.net  Wed Mar 16 20:39:06 2011
From: DLeistikow at webtv.net (Don L. Leistikow)
Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2011 19:39:06 -0500
Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: Name of the Milwaukee Train Station
	During 1969
In-Reply-To: Gary Schnabl <gSchnabl@SWDetroit.com>'s message of Wed, 16 Mar
	2011 17:02:17 -0400
Message-ID: <23184-4D81582A-834@storefull-3172.bay.webtv.net>

Gary S and list;  The Subway was started as a proposed route to the PSB
which could have been underground at the PSB or.... entering street
level at or about 5th street on the east side of the grade which was
topped by 6th street.                          

As I worked the Line Car for a month, I discovered many things.   One
was that the Subway, which began at 8th Street, went only to the alley,
mid-block between 8th and 7th streets.  The instance of our going in
there was for the Lineman to inspect the sump pump which ran almost
continously draining water from the floor of the subway.  An ominous
situation, if I ever saw one.                        


Later I was able to measure the construction of the H column placement
that provided the vertical stance to support the cement ceiling.  The
subway did curve ever so slightly to the northeast, in that short
distance.  These columns were anchored in a concrete base that was some
one foot or so higher from the concrete floor.   I did prepare a drawing
of that subway construction floor plan.           

As for Abel and Bach, they refused to sell so, TMER&L simply went aroujd
their building which faced St.Paul avenue, the westside of 10th street
and on the north, Hibernia street.  If yu lookup the various structures
between 8th and 12th streets, you can match up the trackwork as it was
designed to be in through service with the existing tracks on the
eastside of 10th street.                                               

There were options in place for TMER&L's abiltiy to use one of the
several plans to run through underground or straight ahead by entering
St.Paul avenue off the deck.  Double track was already installed in the
8th street bridge which was immeidately next to the subway entrance on
its east side.                                                         

None of these options ever materialized as the Great Depression was at
hand and investments lagged or disappeared.           

Don L.     



From yance at oldmilwaukee.net  Wed Mar 16 12:57:24 2011
From: yance at oldmilwaukee.net (Y Marti)
Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2011 12:57:24 -0400
Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: Name of the Milwaukee Train Station
 During 1969
In-Reply-To: <E7534687A6BF4345A71503EC9B97FB23@KTJosephson>
References: <E7534687A6BF4345A71503EC9B97FB23@KTJosephson>
Message-ID: <20110316125724.2080116khbfm9z3k@horde.oldmilwaukee.net>

It was known as the Milwaukee Road Passenger Station when it was built  
in 1965.

Quoting Ken and Tracie <ktjosephson at embarqmail.com>:

> Hi John,
> I'm going to put this one out to the Milwaukee Electric Discussion  
> List. I have heard people refer to the station on St. Paul Avenue as  
> "Union Station" since both the Milwaukee Road and the Chicago and  
> Northwestern used it, but I do not recall what the station's offical  
> name was.  Guys?
>
> Today, it is a combination rail and bus station.
>
> K.
>
>




From gSchnabl at SWDetroit.com  Thu Mar 17 00:36:13 2011
From: gSchnabl at SWDetroit.com (Gary Schnabl)
Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2011 00:36:13 -0400
Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: Name of the Milwaukee Train Station
 During 1969
In-Reply-To: <23184-4D81582A-834@storefull-3172.bay.webtv.net>
References: <23184-4D81582A-834@storefull-3172.bay.webtv.net>
Message-ID: <4D818FBD.8070308@SWDetroit.com>

On 3/16/2011 8:39 PM, Don L. Leistikow wrote:
> Gary S and list;  The Subway was started as a proposed route to the PSB
> which could have been underground at the PSB or.... entering street
> level at or about 5th street on the east side of the grade which was
> topped by 6th street.
>
> As I worked the Line Car for a month, I discovered many things.   One
> was that the Subway, which began at 8th Street, went only to the alley,
> mid-block between 8th and 7th streets.  The instance of our going in
> there was for the Lineman to inspect the sump pump which ran almost
> continously draining water from the floor of the subway.  An ominous
> situation, if I ever saw one.
>
>
> Later I was able to measure the construction of the H column placement
> that provided the vertical stance to support the cement ceiling.  The
> subway did curve ever so slightly to the northeast, in that short
> distance.  These columns were anchored in a concrete base that was some
> one foot or so higher from the concrete floor.   I did prepare a drawing
> of that subway construction floor plan.
>
> As for Abel and Bach, they refused to sell so, TMER&L simply went aroujd
> their building which faced St.Paul avenue, the westside of 10th street
> and on the north, Hibernia street.  If yu lookup the various structures
> between 8th and 12th streets, you can match up the trackwork as it was
> designed to be in through service with the existing tracks on the
> eastside of 10th street.
>
> There were options in place for TMER&L's abiltiy to use one of the
> several plans to run through underground or straight ahead by entering
> St.Paul avenue off the deck.  Double track was already installed in the
> 8th street bridge which was immeidately next to the subway entrance on
> its east side.
>
> None of these options ever materialized as the Great Depression was at
> hand and investments lagged or disappeared.
>
> Don L.
Wasn't Abel and Bach's frontage on Hibernia -on the south, not north? 
Wasn't the building between clybourn and Hibernia?

As to the subway: I though I saw an older photo, showing that TMER&L 
parked some of the cars at grade level, one or more tracks parallel to 
and south of its PROW east of Eighth Street at one time. Was that the 
case before the subway started construction?

How far east did the actual subway extend? Exploring that must have been 
quite an attractive nuisance for the kids living near there.

So, the purpose of the short elevated section of the interurban was to 
allow perpendicular street traffic underneath the ROW? Or were there 
other reasons for elevating it? And how did that stretch compare to 
grade level? I was too young ever to witness it myself, being only eight 
years old or so when the interurban ceased running.

Afterward, when I started attending MU for three semesters starting in 
1961, I would try to find parking space for my car in that area and 
noticed that some piecemeal deconstruction was occurring in the 
neighborhood--probably in anticipation for the first MU interchange.

Gary

-- 

Gary Schnabl
Southwest Detroit, two miles NORTH! of Canada--Windsor, that is...





From ktjosephson at embarqmail.com  Thu Mar 17 10:27:12 2011
From: ktjosephson at embarqmail.com (Ken and Tracie)
Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2011 07:27:12 -0700
Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: Name of the Milwaukee Train Station During 1969
References: <5381-4D80EDD3-573@storefull-3171.bay.webtv.net> <4D812559.3010704@SWDetroit.com> <20110316174055.17213kndewcz7vk0@horde.oldmilwaukee.net>
Message-ID: <90612C16F660473DBC1F6AFBF239E2BB@KTJosephson>

Thanks for the replies, people.

My family called it "The Milwaukee Road Station", too. But I believe at some 
point, circa 1967(?), the C&NW station on the lakefront closed and their 
trains also used the new station on St.Paul Avenue.

So what was it known as during 1969? Was it still called "The Milwaukee Road 
Station" by 1969?

K.
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Y Marti" <yance at oldmilwaukee.net>
To: <milwaukee-electric at lists.dementia.org>; "Gary Schnabl" 
<gSchnabl at SWDetroit.com>
Sent: Wednesday, March 16, 2011 2:40 PM
Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: Name of the Milwaukee Train Station During 
1969


> The picture would have been soon after the Public Museum was open in 1963.
>
>>
>>
> Quoting Gary Schnabl <gSchnabl at SWDetroit.com>:
>
> This 1950s or 1960s aerial photo just barely shows the luggage
> company, the subway entrance, and some visible remnants of the PROW
> between 7th
> and 8th Streets in the right-bottom corner. Can anybody peg the year of
> the photo better than the description on the retro Milwaukee website?
>>
>>
>
>
>
> 



From sbgreig_m1 at yahoo.com  Thu Mar 17 10:29:26 2011
From: sbgreig_m1 at yahoo.com (Scott Greig)
Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2011 07:29:26 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: Name of the Milwaukee Train Station During 1969
In-Reply-To: <90612C16F660473DBC1F6AFBF239E2BB@KTJosephson>
Message-ID: <859863.7101.qm@web120705.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>

I think the C&NW station on the lakefront closed around 1965.  It was demolished in 1968.

--- On Thu, 3/17/11, Ken and Tracie <ktjosephson at embarqmail.com> wrote:

> From: Ken and Tracie <ktjosephson at embarqmail.com>
> Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: Name of the Milwaukee Train Station During 1969
> To: milwaukee-electric at lists.dementia.org
> Date: Thursday, March 17, 2011, 9:27 AM
> Thanks for the replies, people.
> 
> My family called it "The Milwaukee Road Station", too. But
> I believe at some 
> point, circa 1967(?), the C&NW station on the lakefront
> closed and their 
> trains also used the new station on St.Paul Avenue.
> 
> So what was it known as during 1969? Was it still called
> "The Milwaukee Road 
> Station" by 1969?
> 
> K.
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Y Marti" <yance at oldmilwaukee.net>
> To: <milwaukee-electric at lists.dementia.org>;
> "Gary Schnabl" 
> <gSchnabl at SWDetroit.com>
> Sent: Wednesday, March 16, 2011 2:40 PM
> Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: Name of the Milwaukee
> Train Station During 
> 1969
> 
> 
> > The picture would have been soon after the Public
> Museum was open in 1963.
> >
> >>
> >>
> > Quoting Gary Schnabl <gSchnabl at SWDetroit.com>:
> >
> > This 1950s or 1960s aerial photo just barely shows the
> luggage
> > company, the subway entrance, and some visible
> remnants of the PROW
> > between 7th
> > and 8th Streets in the right-bottom corner. Can
> anybody peg the year of
> > the photo better than the description on the retro
> Milwaukee website?
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> > 
> 
> 
> 


From DLeistikow at webtv.net  Thu Mar 17 10:42:42 2011
From: DLeistikow at webtv.net (Don L. Leistikow)
Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2011 09:42:42 -0500
Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: Name of the Milwaukee Train Station
	During 1969
In-Reply-To: Gary Schnabl <gSchnabl@SWDetroit.com>'s message of Thu, 17 Mar
	2011 00:36:13 -0400
Message-ID: <23190-4D821DE2-69@storefull-3172.bay.webtv.net>

Gary S and list:   No... the Abel & Bach building fronted on St.Paul
avenue with 10th street on the east side and Hiberna the north side.
The wast line of the Abel & Bach building was next to a transfer table
on the east line of TMER&L's 12th street yard.  That was long gone after
TMER&L gave up LCL (lsess than carload) trafffic  about 1939 or so.                                      

East of 8th street, there was nothing but a couple of buildings facing
Clybourn street and the double tracks that brought the RTL cars over to
the alley and north to Clybourn where the private right of way, ended.                                                      

The Subway opening was built in concert with the construction of the
final pahse of the RTLine from 40th street to its exit onto Clybourn.
The subway ended on the west line of the alley.                                        

As for the bridge structure that carried the tracks aroung Abel and
Bach, I believe that TMER&L was simply sticking to the 'no grade
crossings' format that they employed when building the new RTL from West
Junction, east, which began in 1926.                                                        

The south line of St.Paul avenue and east of 13th street, hosted
Cutler-Hammer and east of that was a big black building that housed
National Enameling & Stamping  Company (Nesco).  A couple of small
builidngs were east of that and housed a Tavern and a Barber Shop, as I
recall.       

I hope that this information will calrify your memory of how that area
looked, back then.                                                 

Don L. 



From ktjosephson at embarqmail.com  Thu Mar 17 10:47:38 2011
From: ktjosephson at embarqmail.com (Ken and Tracie)
Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2011 07:47:38 -0700
Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: Name of the Milwaukee Train Station During 1969
References: <859863.7101.qm@web120705.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <0ABE6504F06B46B7BF352B7A4FB1DA80@KTJosephson>

So Scott, both railroads used the new station from the very beginning, in 
1965?

I remember seeing the C&NW station not long before it was torn down.

K.

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Scott Greig" <sbgreig_m1 at yahoo.com>
To: <milwaukee-electric at lists.dementia.org>
Sent: Thursday, March 17, 2011 7:29 AM
Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: Name of the Milwaukee Train Station During 
1969


>I think the C&NW station on the lakefront closed around 1965.  It was 
>demolished in 1968.
>
> --- On Thu, 3/17/11, Ken and Tracie <ktjosephson at embarqmail.com> wrote:
>
>> From: Ken and Tracie <ktjosephson at embarqmail.com>
>> Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: Name of the Milwaukee Train Station 
>> During 1969
>> To: milwaukee-electric at lists.dementia.org
>> Date: Thursday, March 17, 2011, 9:27 AM
>> Thanks for the replies, people.
>>
>> My family called it "The Milwaukee Road Station", too. But
>> I believe at some
>> point, circa 1967(?), the C&NW station on the lakefront
>> closed and their
>> trains also used the new station on St.Paul Avenue.
>>
>> So what was it known as during 1969? Was it still called
>> "The Milwaukee Road
>> Station" by 1969?
>>
>> K.
>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>> From: "Y Marti" <yance at oldmilwaukee.net>
>> To: <milwaukee-electric at lists.dementia.org>;
>> "Gary Schnabl"
>> <gSchnabl at SWDetroit.com>
>> Sent: Wednesday, March 16, 2011 2:40 PM
>> Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: Name of the Milwaukee
>> Train Station During
>> 1969
>>
>>
>> > The picture would have been soon after the Public
>> Museum was open in 1963.
>> >
>> >>
>> >>
>> > Quoting Gary Schnabl <gSchnabl at SWDetroit.com>:
>> >
>> > This 1950s or 1960s aerial photo just barely shows the
>> luggage
>> > company, the subway entrance, and some visible
>> remnants of the PROW
>> > between 7th
>> > and 8th Streets in the right-bottom corner. Can
>> anybody peg the year of
>> > the photo better than the description on the retro
>> Milwaukee website?
>> >>
>> >>
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>>
>>
>>
> 



From sbgreig_m1 at yahoo.com  Thu Mar 17 10:53:57 2011
From: sbgreig_m1 at yahoo.com (Scott Greig)
Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2011 07:53:57 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: Name of the Milwaukee Train Station During 1969
In-Reply-To: <0ABE6504F06B46B7BF352B7A4FB1DA80@KTJosephson>
Message-ID: <125523.81392.qm@web120717.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>

Yes, give or take a year on the C&NW.  I'd have to check my copy of "The 400 Story" to be sure.  The lakefront station sat vacant for a few years (and had at least one fire) before the City of Milwaukee put pressure on the railroad and it was razed.

A rotten shame that it was.

--- On Thu, 3/17/11, Ken and Tracie <ktjosephson at embarqmail.com> wrote:

> From: Ken and Tracie <ktjosephson at embarqmail.com>
> Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: Name of the Milwaukee Train Station During 1969
> To: milwaukee-electric at lists.dementia.org
> Date: Thursday, March 17, 2011, 9:47 AM
> So Scott, both railroads used the new
> station from the very beginning, in 
> 1965?
> 
> I remember seeing the C&NW station not long before it
> was torn down.
> 
> K.
> 
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Scott Greig" <sbgreig_m1 at yahoo.com>
> To: <milwaukee-electric at lists.dementia.org>
> Sent: Thursday, March 17, 2011 7:29 AM
> Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: Name of the Milwaukee
> Train Station During 
> 1969
> 
> 
> >I think the C&NW station on the lakefront closed
> around 1965.? It was 
> >demolished in 1968.
> >
> > --- On Thu, 3/17/11, Ken and Tracie <ktjosephson at embarqmail.com>
> wrote:
> >
> >> From: Ken and Tracie <ktjosephson at embarqmail.com>
> >> Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: Name of the
> Milwaukee Train Station 
> >> During 1969
> >> To: milwaukee-electric at lists.dementia.org
> >> Date: Thursday, March 17, 2011, 9:27 AM
> >> Thanks for the replies, people.
> >>
> >> My family called it "The Milwaukee Road Station",
> too. But
> >> I believe at some
> >> point, circa 1967(?), the C&NW station on the
> lakefront
> >> closed and their
> >> trains also used the new station on St.Paul
> Avenue.
> >>
> >> So what was it known as during 1969? Was it still
> called
> >> "The Milwaukee Road
> >> Station" by 1969?
> >>
> >> K.
> >> ----- Original Message ----- 
> >> From: "Y Marti" <yance at oldmilwaukee.net>
> >> To: <milwaukee-electric at lists.dementia.org>;
> >> "Gary Schnabl"
> >> <gSchnabl at SWDetroit.com>
> >> Sent: Wednesday, March 16, 2011 2:40 PM
> >> Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: Name of the
> Milwaukee
> >> Train Station During
> >> 1969
> >>
> >>
> >> > The picture would have been soon after the
> Public
> >> Museum was open in 1963.
> >> >
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> > Quoting Gary Schnabl <gSchnabl at SWDetroit.com>:
> >> >
> >> > This 1950s or 1960s aerial photo just barely
> shows the
> >> luggage
> >> > company, the subway entrance, and some
> visible
> >> remnants of the PROW
> >> > between 7th
> >> > and 8th Streets in the right-bottom corner.
> Can
> >> anybody peg the year of
> >> > the photo better than the description on the
> retro
> >> Milwaukee website?
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >>
> >>
> >>
> > 
> 
> 
> 



From ktjosephson at embarqmail.com  Thu Mar 17 11:12:35 2011
From: ktjosephson at embarqmail.com (Ken and Tracie)
Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2011 08:12:35 -0700
Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: Name of the Milwaukee Train Station During 1969
References: <125523.81392.qm@web120717.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <B864A4B554BD41BF9FFB79C698AEFE11@KTJosephson>

Yeah, it was empty when I visited it. Became quite derelict in such a short 
period of time, like former United States Disciplinary Barracks on North 
Hopkins did, after the Army moved the Reserve unit to the former Nike 
buildings on the south end of the property, circa 1969.

K.
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Scott Greig" <sbgreig_m1 at yahoo.com>
To: <milwaukee-electric at lists.dementia.org>
Sent: Thursday, March 17, 2011 7:53 AM
Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: Name of the Milwaukee Train Station During 
1969


> Yes, give or take a year on the C&NW.  I'd have to check my copy of "The 
> 400 Story" to be sure.  The lakefront station sat vacant for a few years 
> (and had at least one fire) before the City of Milwaukee put pressure on 
> the railroad and it was razed.
>
> A rotten shame that it was.
>
> --- On Thu, 3/17/11, Ken and Tracie <ktjosephson at embarqmail.com> wrote:
>
>> From: Ken and Tracie <ktjosephson at embarqmail.com>
>> Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: Name of the Milwaukee Train Station 
>> During 1969
>> To: milwaukee-electric at lists.dementia.org
>> Date: Thursday, March 17, 2011, 9:47 AM
>> So Scott, both railroads used the new
>> station from the very beginning, in
>> 1965?
>>
>> I remember seeing the C&NW station not long before it
>> was torn down.
>>
>> K.
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>> From: "Scott Greig" <sbgreig_m1 at yahoo.com>
>> To: <milwaukee-electric at lists.dementia.org>
>> Sent: Thursday, March 17, 2011 7:29 AM
>> Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: Name of the Milwaukee
>> Train Station During
>> 1969
>>
>>
>> >I think the C&NW station on the lakefront closed
>> around 1965. It was
>> >demolished in 1968.
>> >
>> > --- On Thu, 3/17/11, Ken and Tracie <ktjosephson at embarqmail.com>
>> wrote:
>> >
>> >> From: Ken and Tracie <ktjosephson at embarqmail.com>
>> >> Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: Name of the
>> Milwaukee Train Station
>> >> During 1969
>> >> To: milwaukee-electric at lists.dementia.org
>> >> Date: Thursday, March 17, 2011, 9:27 AM
>> >> Thanks for the replies, people.
>> >>
>> >> My family called it "The Milwaukee Road Station",
>> too. But
>> >> I believe at some
>> >> point, circa 1967(?), the C&NW station on the
>> lakefront
>> >> closed and their
>> >> trains also used the new station on St.Paul
>> Avenue.
>> >>
>> >> So what was it known as during 1969? Was it still
>> called
>> >> "The Milwaukee Road
>> >> Station" by 1969?
>> >>
>> >> K.
>> >> ----- Original Message ----- 
>> >> From: "Y Marti" <yance at oldmilwaukee.net>
>> >> To: <milwaukee-electric at lists.dementia.org>;
>> >> "Gary Schnabl"
>> >> <gSchnabl at SWDetroit.com>
>> >> Sent: Wednesday, March 16, 2011 2:40 PM
>> >> Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: Name of the
>> Milwaukee
>> >> Train Station During
>> >> 1969
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> > The picture would have been soon after the
>> Public
>> >> Museum was open in 1963.
>> >> >
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> > Quoting Gary Schnabl <gSchnabl at SWDetroit.com>:
>> >> >
>> >> > This 1950s or 1960s aerial photo just barely
>> shows the
>> >> luggage
>> >> > company, the subway entrance, and some
>> visible
>> >> remnants of the PROW
>> >> > between 7th
>> >> > and 8th Streets in the right-bottom corner.
>> Can
>> >> anybody peg the year of
>> >> > the photo better than the description on the
>> retro
>> >> Milwaukee website?
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >
>>
>>
>>
>
> 



From lallan45 at gmail.com  Thu Mar 17 11:20:21 2011
From: lallan45 at gmail.com (Larry Allan)
Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2011 10:20:21 -0500
Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: Name of the Milwaukee Train Station
 During 1969
In-Reply-To: <B864A4B554BD41BF9FFB79C698AEFE11@KTJosephson>
References: <125523.81392.qm@web120717.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
	<B864A4B554BD41BF9FFB79C698AEFE11@KTJosephson>
Message-ID: <AANLkTikUC+LYaV1ZvjciRfbAWBWAEEk821LQbcurVJq5@mail.gmail.com>

I remember the Clock Tower was left standing for awhile. I also heard the
rumor that the First Wisconsin wanted the Station down for it was
obstructing their view of the Lake.
On Thu, Mar 17, 2011 at 10:12 AM, Ken and Tracie <ktjosephson at embarqmail.com
> wrote:

> Yeah, it was empty when I visited it. Became quite derelict in such a short
> period of time, like former United States Disciplinary Barracks on North
> Hopkins did, after the Army moved the Reserve unit to the former Nike
> buildings on the south end of the property, circa 1969.
>
> K.
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Scott Greig" <sbgreig_m1 at yahoo.com>
> To: <milwaukee-electric at lists.dementia.org>
> Sent: Thursday, March 17, 2011 7:53 AM
> Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: Name of the Milwaukee Train Station
> During
> 1969
>
>
> > Yes, give or take a year on the C&NW.  I'd have to check my copy of "The
> > 400 Story" to be sure.  The lakefront station sat vacant for a few years
> > (and had at least one fire) before the City of Milwaukee put pressure on
> > the railroad and it was razed.
> >
> > A rotten shame that it was.
> >
> > --- On Thu, 3/17/11, Ken and Tracie <ktjosephson at embarqmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >> From: Ken and Tracie <ktjosephson at embarqmail.com>
> >> Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: Name of the Milwaukee Train Station
> >> During 1969
> >> To: milwaukee-electric at lists.dementia.org
> >> Date: Thursday, March 17, 2011, 9:47 AM
> >> So Scott, both railroads used the new
> >> station from the very beginning, in
> >> 1965?
> >>
> >> I remember seeing the C&NW station not long before it
> >> was torn down.
> >>
> >> K.
> >>
> >> ----- Original Message -----
> >> From: "Scott Greig" <sbgreig_m1 at yahoo.com>
> >> To: <milwaukee-electric at lists.dementia.org>
> >> Sent: Thursday, March 17, 2011 7:29 AM
> >> Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: Name of the Milwaukee
> >> Train Station During
> >> 1969
> >>
> >>
> >> >I think the C&NW station on the lakefront closed
> >> around 1965. It was
> >> >demolished in 1968.
> >> >
> >> > --- On Thu, 3/17/11, Ken and Tracie <ktjosephson at embarqmail.com>
> >> wrote:
> >> >
> >> >> From: Ken and Tracie <ktjosephson at embarqmail.com>
> >> >> Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: Name of the
> >> Milwaukee Train Station
> >> >> During 1969
> >> >> To: milwaukee-electric at lists.dementia.org
> >> >> Date: Thursday, March 17, 2011, 9:27 AM
> >> >> Thanks for the replies, people.
> >> >>
> >> >> My family called it "The Milwaukee Road Station",
> >> too. But
> >> >> I believe at some
> >> >> point, circa 1967(?), the C&NW station on the
> >> lakefront
> >> >> closed and their
> >> >> trains also used the new station on St.Paul
> >> Avenue.
> >> >>
> >> >> So what was it known as during 1969? Was it still
> >> called
> >> >> "The Milwaukee Road
> >> >> Station" by 1969?
> >> >>
> >> >> K.
> >> >> ----- Original Message -----
> >> >> From: "Y Marti" <yance at oldmilwaukee.net>
> >> >> To: <milwaukee-electric at lists.dementia.org>;
> >> >> "Gary Schnabl"
> >> >> <gSchnabl at SWDetroit.com>
> >> >> Sent: Wednesday, March 16, 2011 2:40 PM
> >> >> Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: Name of the
> >> Milwaukee
> >> >> Train Station During
> >> >> 1969
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> > The picture would have been soon after the
> >> Public
> >> >> Museum was open in 1963.
> >> >> >
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >>
> >> >> > Quoting Gary Schnabl <gSchnabl at SWDetroit.com>:
> >> >> >
> >> >> > This 1950s or 1960s aerial photo just barely
> >> shows the
> >> >> luggage
> >> >> > company, the subway entrance, and some
> >> visible
> >> >> remnants of the PROW
> >> >> > between 7th
> >> >> > and 8th Streets in the right-bottom corner.
> >> Can
> >> >> anybody peg the year of
> >> >> > the photo better than the description on the
> >> retro
> >> >> Milwaukee website?
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
>
>
>




From ktjosephson at embarqmail.com  Thu Mar 17 11:22:23 2011
From: ktjosephson at embarqmail.com (Ken and Tracie)
Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2011 08:22:23 -0700
Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: Name of the Milwaukee Train Station During 1969
References: <125523.81392.qm@web120717.mail.ne1.yahoo.com><B864A4B554BD41BF9FFB79C698AEFE11@KTJosephson> <AANLkTikUC+LYaV1ZvjciRfbAWBWAEEk821LQbcurVJq5@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <F09F8579B2A74CF0B0355B8A8640C23B@KTJosephson>

Larry, would you know what most locals called the new station by 1969?

K.
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Larry Allan" <lallan45 at gmail.com>
To: <milwaukee-electric at lists.dementia.org>
Sent: Thursday, March 17, 2011 8:20 AM
Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: Name of the Milwaukee Train Station During 
1969


>I remember the Clock Tower was left standing for awhile. I also heard the
> rumor that the First Wisconsin wanted the Station down for it was
> obstructing their view of the Lake.
> On Thu, Mar 17, 2011 at 10:12 AM, Ken and Tracie 
> <ktjosephson at embarqmail.com
>> wrote:
>
>> Yeah, it was empty when I visited it. Became quite derelict in such a 
>> short
>> period of time, like former United States Disciplinary Barracks on North
>> Hopkins did, after the Army moved the Reserve unit to the former Nike
>> buildings on the south end of the property, circa 1969.
>>
>> K.
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Scott Greig" <sbgreig_m1 at yahoo.com>
>> To: <milwaukee-electric at lists.dementia.org>
>> Sent: Thursday, March 17, 2011 7:53 AM
>> Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: Name of the Milwaukee Train Station
>> During
>> 1969
>>
>>
>> > Yes, give or take a year on the C&NW.  I'd have to check my copy of 
>> > "The
>> > 400 Story" to be sure.  The lakefront station sat vacant for a few 
>> > years
>> > (and had at least one fire) before the City of Milwaukee put pressure 
>> > on
>> > the railroad and it was razed.
>> >
>> > A rotten shame that it was.
>> >
>> > --- On Thu, 3/17/11, Ken and Tracie <ktjosephson at embarqmail.com> wrote:
>> >
>> >> From: Ken and Tracie <ktjosephson at embarqmail.com>
>> >> Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: Name of the Milwaukee Train Station
>> >> During 1969
>> >> To: milwaukee-electric at lists.dementia.org
>> >> Date: Thursday, March 17, 2011, 9:47 AM
>> >> So Scott, both railroads used the new
>> >> station from the very beginning, in
>> >> 1965?
>> >>
>> >> I remember seeing the C&NW station not long before it
>> >> was torn down.
>> >>
>> >> K.
>> >>
>> >> ----- Original Message -----
>> >> From: "Scott Greig" <sbgreig_m1 at yahoo.com>
>> >> To: <milwaukee-electric at lists.dementia.org>
>> >> Sent: Thursday, March 17, 2011 7:29 AM
>> >> Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: Name of the Milwaukee
>> >> Train Station During
>> >> 1969
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> >I think the C&NW station on the lakefront closed
>> >> around 1965. It was
>> >> >demolished in 1968.
>> >> >
>> >> > --- On Thu, 3/17/11, Ken and Tracie <ktjosephson at embarqmail.com>
>> >> wrote:
>> >> >
>> >> >> From: Ken and Tracie <ktjosephson at embarqmail.com>
>> >> >> Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: Name of the
>> >> Milwaukee Train Station
>> >> >> During 1969
>> >> >> To: milwaukee-electric at lists.dementia.org
>> >> >> Date: Thursday, March 17, 2011, 9:27 AM
>> >> >> Thanks for the replies, people.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> My family called it "The Milwaukee Road Station",
>> >> too. But
>> >> >> I believe at some
>> >> >> point, circa 1967(?), the C&NW station on the
>> >> lakefront
>> >> >> closed and their
>> >> >> trains also used the new station on St.Paul
>> >> Avenue.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> So what was it known as during 1969? Was it still
>> >> called
>> >> >> "The Milwaukee Road
>> >> >> Station" by 1969?
>> >> >>
>> >> >> K.
>> >> >> ----- Original Message -----
>> >> >> From: "Y Marti" <yance at oldmilwaukee.net>
>> >> >> To: <milwaukee-electric at lists.dementia.org>;
>> >> >> "Gary Schnabl"
>> >> >> <gSchnabl at SWDetroit.com>
>> >> >> Sent: Wednesday, March 16, 2011 2:40 PM
>> >> >> Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: Name of the
>> >> Milwaukee
>> >> >> Train Station During
>> >> >> 1969
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >> > The picture would have been soon after the
>> >> Public
>> >> >> Museum was open in 1963.
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> > Quoting Gary Schnabl <gSchnabl at SWDetroit.com>:
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > This 1950s or 1960s aerial photo just barely
>> >> shows the
>> >> >> luggage
>> >> >> > company, the subway entrance, and some
>> >> visible
>> >> >> remnants of the PROW
>> >> >> > between 7th
>> >> >> > and 8th Streets in the right-bottom corner.
>> >> Can
>> >> >> anybody peg the year of
>> >> >> > the photo better than the description on the
>> >> retro
>> >> >> Milwaukee website?
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >
>> >
>>
>>
>>
>
>
> 



From lallan45 at gmail.com  Thu Mar 17 11:30:46 2011
From: lallan45 at gmail.com (Larry Allan)
Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2011 10:30:46 -0500
Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: Name of the Milwaukee Train Station
 During 1969
In-Reply-To: <F09F8579B2A74CF0B0355B8A8640C23B@KTJosephson>
References: <125523.81392.qm@web120717.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
	<B864A4B554BD41BF9FFB79C698AEFE11@KTJosephson>
	<AANLkTikUC+LYaV1ZvjciRfbAWBWAEEk821LQbcurVJq5@mail.gmail.com>
	<F09F8579B2A74CF0B0355B8A8640C23B@KTJosephson>
Message-ID: <AANLkTimQeMgJ1VMC5NnLwc8ihAyYe1uZosMtsnLZc8UG@mail.gmail.com>

No, I do not recall. I could only suggest doing a search of the Google News
Archives.
On Thu, Mar 17, 2011 at 10:22 AM, Ken and Tracie <ktjosephson at embarqmail.com
> wrote:

> Larry, would you know what most locals called the new station by 1969?
>
> K.
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Larry Allan" <lallan45 at gmail.com>
> To: <milwaukee-electric at lists.dementia.org>
> Sent: Thursday, March 17, 2011 8:20 AM
> Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: Name of the Milwaukee Train Station
> During
> 1969
>
>
> >I remember the Clock Tower was left standing for awhile. I also heard the
> > rumor that the First Wisconsin wanted the Station down for it was
> > obstructing their view of the Lake.
> > On Thu, Mar 17, 2011 at 10:12 AM, Ken and Tracie
> > <ktjosephson at embarqmail.com
> >> wrote:
> >
> >> Yeah, it was empty when I visited it. Became quite derelict in such a
> >> short
> >> period of time, like former United States Disciplinary Barracks on North
> >> Hopkins did, after the Army moved the Reserve unit to the former Nike
> >> buildings on the south end of the property, circa 1969.
> >>
> >> K.
> >> ----- Original Message -----
> >> From: "Scott Greig" <sbgreig_m1 at yahoo.com>
> >> To: <milwaukee-electric at lists.dementia.org>
> >> Sent: Thursday, March 17, 2011 7:53 AM
> >> Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: Name of the Milwaukee Train Station
> >> During
> >> 1969
> >>
> >>
> >> > Yes, give or take a year on the C&NW.  I'd have to check my copy of
> >> > "The
> >> > 400 Story" to be sure.  The lakefront station sat vacant for a few
> >> > years
> >> > (and had at least one fire) before the City of Milwaukee put pressure
> >> > on
> >> > the railroad and it was razed.
> >> >
> >> > A rotten shame that it was.
> >> >
> >> > --- On Thu, 3/17/11, Ken and Tracie <ktjosephson at embarqmail.com>
> wrote:
> >> >
> >> >> From: Ken and Tracie <ktjosephson at embarqmail.com>
> >> >> Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: Name of the Milwaukee Train Station
> >> >> During 1969
> >> >> To: milwaukee-electric at lists.dementia.org
> >> >> Date: Thursday, March 17, 2011, 9:47 AM
> >> >> So Scott, both railroads used the new
> >> >> station from the very beginning, in
> >> >> 1965?
> >> >>
> >> >> I remember seeing the C&NW station not long before it
> >> >> was torn down.
> >> >>
> >> >> K.
> >> >>
> >> >> ----- Original Message -----
> >> >> From: "Scott Greig" <sbgreig_m1 at yahoo.com>
> >> >> To: <milwaukee-electric at lists.dementia.org>
> >> >> Sent: Thursday, March 17, 2011 7:29 AM
> >> >> Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: Name of the Milwaukee
> >> >> Train Station During
> >> >> 1969
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> >I think the C&NW station on the lakefront closed
> >> >> around 1965. It was
> >> >> >demolished in 1968.
> >> >> >
> >> >> > --- On Thu, 3/17/11, Ken and Tracie <ktjosephson at embarqmail.com>
> >> >> wrote:
> >> >> >
> >> >> >> From: Ken and Tracie <ktjosephson at embarqmail.com>
> >> >> >> Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: Name of the
> >> >> Milwaukee Train Station
> >> >> >> During 1969
> >> >> >> To: milwaukee-electric at lists.dementia.org
> >> >> >> Date: Thursday, March 17, 2011, 9:27 AM
> >> >> >> Thanks for the replies, people.
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> My family called it "The Milwaukee Road Station",
> >> >> too. But
> >> >> >> I believe at some
> >> >> >> point, circa 1967(?), the C&NW station on the
> >> >> lakefront
> >> >> >> closed and their
> >> >> >> trains also used the new station on St.Paul
> >> >> Avenue.
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> So what was it known as during 1969? Was it still
> >> >> called
> >> >> >> "The Milwaukee Road
> >> >> >> Station" by 1969?
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> K.
> >> >> >> ----- Original Message -----
> >> >> >> From: "Y Marti" <yance at oldmilwaukee.net>
> >> >> >> To: <milwaukee-electric at lists.dementia.org>;
> >> >> >> "Gary Schnabl"
> >> >> >> <gSchnabl at SWDetroit.com>
> >> >> >> Sent: Wednesday, March 16, 2011 2:40 PM
> >> >> >> Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: Name of the
> >> >> Milwaukee
> >> >> >> Train Station During
> >> >> >> 1969
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> > The picture would have been soon after the
> >> >> Public
> >> >> >> Museum was open in 1963.
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> > Quoting Gary Schnabl <gSchnabl at SWDetroit.com>:
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> > This 1950s or 1960s aerial photo just barely
> >> >> shows the
> >> >> >> luggage
> >> >> >> > company, the subway entrance, and some
> >> >> visible
> >> >> >> remnants of the PROW
> >> >> >> > between 7th
> >> >> >> > and 8th Streets in the right-bottom corner.
> >> >> Can
> >> >> >> anybody peg the year of
> >> >> >> > the photo better than the description on the
> >> >> retro
> >> >> >> Milwaukee website?
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >
> >> >
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>




From lallan45 at gmail.com  Thu Mar 17 11:37:58 2011
From: lallan45 at gmail.com (Larry Allan)
Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2011 10:37:58 -0500
Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: Name of the Milwaukee Train Station
 During 1969
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTimQeMgJ1VMC5NnLwc8ihAyYe1uZosMtsnLZc8UG@mail.gmail.com>
References: <125523.81392.qm@web120717.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
	<B864A4B554BD41BF9FFB79C698AEFE11@KTJosephson>
	<AANLkTikUC+LYaV1ZvjciRfbAWBWAEEk821LQbcurVJq5@mail.gmail.com>
	<F09F8579B2A74CF0B0355B8A8640C23B@KTJosephson>
	<AANLkTimQeMgJ1VMC5NnLwc8ihAyYe1uZosMtsnLZc8UG@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTi=sVGDps+OtgrcrDZhu8hJt89D9GqCHxC3rCBPo@mail.gmail.com>

Ken, are you thinking of a Slang Name, such as the old Mecca complex that
was know as the "Big Video Recorder"?
On Thu, Mar 17, 2011 at 10:30 AM, Larry Allan <lallan45 at gmail.com> wrote:

> No, I do not recall. I could only suggest doing a search of the Google News
> Archives.
>
> On Thu, Mar 17, 2011 at 10:22 AM, Ken and Tracie <
> ktjosephson at embarqmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Larry, would you know what most locals called the new station by 1969?
>>
>> K.
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Larry Allan" <lallan45 at gmail.com>
>> To: <milwaukee-electric at lists.dementia.org>
>> Sent: Thursday, March 17, 2011 8:20 AM
>> Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: Name of the Milwaukee Train Station
>> During
>> 1969
>>
>>
>> >I remember the Clock Tower was left standing for awhile. I also heard the
>> > rumor that the First Wisconsin wanted the Station down for it was
>> > obstructing their view of the Lake.
>> > On Thu, Mar 17, 2011 at 10:12 AM, Ken and Tracie
>> > <ktjosephson at embarqmail.com
>> >> wrote:
>> >
>> >> Yeah, it was empty when I visited it. Became quite derelict in such a
>> >> short
>> >> period of time, like former United States Disciplinary Barracks on
>> North
>> >> Hopkins did, after the Army moved the Reserve unit to the former Nike
>> >> buildings on the south end of the property, circa 1969.
>> >>
>> >> K.
>> >> ----- Original Message -----
>> >> From: "Scott Greig" <sbgreig_m1 at yahoo.com>
>> >> To: <milwaukee-electric at lists.dementia.org>
>> >> Sent: Thursday, March 17, 2011 7:53 AM
>> >> Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: Name of the Milwaukee Train Station
>> >> During
>> >> 1969
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> > Yes, give or take a year on the C&NW.  I'd have to check my copy of
>> >> > "The
>> >> > 400 Story" to be sure.  The lakefront station sat vacant for a few
>> >> > years
>> >> > (and had at least one fire) before the City of Milwaukee put pressure
>> >> > on
>> >> > the railroad and it was razed.
>> >> >
>> >> > A rotten shame that it was.
>> >> >
>> >> > --- On Thu, 3/17/11, Ken and Tracie <ktjosephson at embarqmail.com>
>> wrote:
>> >> >
>> >> >> From: Ken and Tracie <ktjosephson at embarqmail.com>
>> >> >> Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: Name of the Milwaukee Train
>> Station
>> >> >> During 1969
>> >> >> To: milwaukee-electric at lists.dementia.org
>> >> >> Date: Thursday, March 17, 2011, 9:47 AM
>> >> >> So Scott, both railroads used the new
>> >> >> station from the very beginning, in
>> >> >> 1965?
>> >> >>
>> >> >> I remember seeing the C&NW station not long before it
>> >> >> was torn down.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> K.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> ----- Original Message -----
>> >> >> From: "Scott Greig" <sbgreig_m1 at yahoo.com>
>> >> >> To: <milwaukee-electric at lists.dementia.org>
>> >> >> Sent: Thursday, March 17, 2011 7:29 AM
>> >> >> Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: Name of the Milwaukee
>> >> >> Train Station During
>> >> >> 1969
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >> >I think the C&NW station on the lakefront closed
>> >> >> around 1965. It was
>> >> >> >demolished in 1968.
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > --- On Thu, 3/17/11, Ken and Tracie <ktjosephson at embarqmail.com>
>> >> >> wrote:
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >> From: Ken and Tracie <ktjosephson at embarqmail.com>
>> >> >> >> Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: Name of the
>> >> >> Milwaukee Train Station
>> >> >> >> During 1969
>> >> >> >> To: milwaukee-electric at lists.dementia.org
>> >> >> >> Date: Thursday, March 17, 2011, 9:27 AM
>> >> >> >> Thanks for the replies, people.
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> My family called it "The Milwaukee Road Station",
>> >> >> too. But
>> >> >> >> I believe at some
>> >> >> >> point, circa 1967(?), the C&NW station on the
>> >> >> lakefront
>> >> >> >> closed and their
>> >> >> >> trains also used the new station on St.Paul
>> >> >> Avenue.
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> So what was it known as during 1969? Was it still
>> >> >> called
>> >> >> >> "The Milwaukee Road
>> >> >> >> Station" by 1969?
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> K.
>> >> >> >> ----- Original Message -----
>> >> >> >> From: "Y Marti" <yance at oldmilwaukee.net>
>> >> >> >> To: <milwaukee-electric at lists.dementia.org>;
>> >> >> >> "Gary Schnabl"
>> >> >> >> <gSchnabl at SWDetroit.com>
>> >> >> >> Sent: Wednesday, March 16, 2011 2:40 PM
>> >> >> >> Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: Name of the
>> >> >> Milwaukee
>> >> >> >> Train Station During
>> >> >> >> 1969
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> > The picture would have been soon after the
>> >> >> Public
>> >> >> >> Museum was open in 1963.
>> >> >> >> >
>> >> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> > Quoting Gary Schnabl <gSchnabl at SWDetroit.com>:
>> >> >> >> >
>> >> >> >> > This 1950s or 1960s aerial photo just barely
>> >> >> shows the
>> >> >> >> luggage
>> >> >> >> > company, the subway entrance, and some
>> >> >> visible
>> >> >> >> remnants of the PROW
>> >> >> >> > between 7th
>> >> >> >> > and 8th Streets in the right-bottom corner.
>> >> >> Can
>> >> >> >> anybody peg the year of
>> >> >> >> > the photo better than the description on the
>> >> >> retro
>> >> >> >> Milwaukee website?
>> >> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> >
>> >> >> >> >
>> >> >> >> >
>> >> >> >> >
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >
>> >
>> >
>>
>>
>>
>




From ktjosephson at embarqmail.com  Thu Mar 17 11:47:16 2011
From: ktjosephson at embarqmail.com (Ken and Tracie)
Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2011 08:47:16 -0700
Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: Name of the Milwaukee Train Station During 1969
References: <125523.81392.qm@web120717.mail.ne1.yahoo.com><B864A4B554BD41BF9FFB79C698AEFE11@KTJosephson><AANLkTikUC+LYaV1ZvjciRfbAWBWAEEk821LQbcurVJq5@mail.gmail.com><F09F8579B2A74CF0B0355B8A8640C23B@KTJosephson> <AANLkTimQeMgJ1VMC5NnLwc8ihAyYe1uZosMtsnLZc8UG@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AE8DDCE250014BF48C300B260172AE97@KTJosephson>

Good idea, Larry.

After the NSL shut down, my family became a "Milwaukee Road family" and we 
seldom used the C&NW. So we simply called it "The Milwaukee Road station" 
from the time it opened.

K.

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Larry Allan" <lallan45 at gmail.com>
To: <milwaukee-electric at lists.dementia.org>
Sent: Thursday, March 17, 2011 8:30 AM
Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: Name of the Milwaukee Train Station During 
1969


> No, I do not recall. I could only suggest doing a search of the Google 
> News
> Archives.
> On Thu, Mar 17, 2011 at 10:22 AM, Ken and Tracie 
> <ktjosephson at embarqmail.com
>> wrote:
>
>> Larry, would you know what most locals called the new station by 1969?
>>
>> K.
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Larry Allan" <lallan45 at gmail.com>
>> To: <milwaukee-electric at lists.dementia.org>
>> Sent: Thursday, March 17, 2011 8:20 AM
>> Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: Name of the Milwaukee Train Station
>> During
>> 1969
>>
>>
>> >I remember the Clock Tower was left standing for awhile. I also heard 
>> >the
>> > rumor that the First Wisconsin wanted the Station down for it was
>> > obstructing their view of the Lake.
>> > On Thu, Mar 17, 2011 at 10:12 AM, Ken and Tracie
>> > <ktjosephson at embarqmail.com
>> >> wrote:
>> >
>> >> Yeah, it was empty when I visited it. Became quite derelict in such a
>> >> short
>> >> period of time, like former United States Disciplinary Barracks on 
>> >> North
>> >> Hopkins did, after the Army moved the Reserve unit to the former Nike
>> >> buildings on the south end of the property, circa 1969.
>> >>
>> >> K.
>> >> ----- Original Message -----
>> >> From: "Scott Greig" <sbgreig_m1 at yahoo.com>
>> >> To: <milwaukee-electric at lists.dementia.org>
>> >> Sent: Thursday, March 17, 2011 7:53 AM
>> >> Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: Name of the Milwaukee Train Station
>> >> During
>> >> 1969
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> > Yes, give or take a year on the C&NW.  I'd have to check my copy of
>> >> > "The
>> >> > 400 Story" to be sure.  The lakefront station sat vacant for a few
>> >> > years
>> >> > (and had at least one fire) before the City of Milwaukee put 
>> >> > pressure
>> >> > on
>> >> > the railroad and it was razed.
>> >> >
>> >> > A rotten shame that it was.
>> >> >
>> >> > --- On Thu, 3/17/11, Ken and Tracie <ktjosephson at embarqmail.com>
>> wrote:
>> >> >
>> >> >> From: Ken and Tracie <ktjosephson at embarqmail.com>
>> >> >> Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: Name of the Milwaukee Train 
>> >> >> Station
>> >> >> During 1969
>> >> >> To: milwaukee-electric at lists.dementia.org
>> >> >> Date: Thursday, March 17, 2011, 9:47 AM
>> >> >> So Scott, both railroads used the new
>> >> >> station from the very beginning, in
>> >> >> 1965?
>> >> >>
>> >> >> I remember seeing the C&NW station not long before it
>> >> >> was torn down.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> K.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> ----- Original Message -----
>> >> >> From: "Scott Greig" <sbgreig_m1 at yahoo.com>
>> >> >> To: <milwaukee-electric at lists.dementia.org>
>> >> >> Sent: Thursday, March 17, 2011 7:29 AM
>> >> >> Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: Name of the Milwaukee
>> >> >> Train Station During
>> >> >> 1969
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >> >I think the C&NW station on the lakefront closed
>> >> >> around 1965. It was
>> >> >> >demolished in 1968.
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > --- On Thu, 3/17/11, Ken and Tracie <ktjosephson at embarqmail.com>
>> >> >> wrote:
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >> From: Ken and Tracie <ktjosephson at embarqmail.com>
>> >> >> >> Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: Name of the
>> >> >> Milwaukee Train Station
>> >> >> >> During 1969
>> >> >> >> To: milwaukee-electric at lists.dementia.org
>> >> >> >> Date: Thursday, March 17, 2011, 9:27 AM
>> >> >> >> Thanks for the replies, people.
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> My family called it "The Milwaukee Road Station",
>> >> >> too. But
>> >> >> >> I believe at some
>> >> >> >> point, circa 1967(?), the C&NW station on the
>> >> >> lakefront
>> >> >> >> closed and their
>> >> >> >> trains also used the new station on St.Paul
>> >> >> Avenue.
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> So what was it known as during 1969? Was it still
>> >> >> called
>> >> >> >> "The Milwaukee Road
>> >> >> >> Station" by 1969?
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> K.
>> >> >> >> ----- Original Message -----
>> >> >> >> From: "Y Marti" <yance at oldmilwaukee.net>
>> >> >> >> To: <milwaukee-electric at lists.dementia.org>;
>> >> >> >> "Gary Schnabl"
>> >> >> >> <gSchnabl at SWDetroit.com>
>> >> >> >> Sent: Wednesday, March 16, 2011 2:40 PM
>> >> >> >> Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: Name of the
>> >> >> Milwaukee
>> >> >> >> Train Station During
>> >> >> >> 1969
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> > The picture would have been soon after the
>> >> >> Public
>> >> >> >> Museum was open in 1963.
>> >> >> >> >
>> >> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> > Quoting Gary Schnabl <gSchnabl at SWDetroit.com>:
>> >> >> >> >
>> >> >> >> > This 1950s or 1960s aerial photo just barely
>> >> >> shows the
>> >> >> >> luggage
>> >> >> >> > company, the subway entrance, and some
>> >> >> visible
>> >> >> >> remnants of the PROW
>> >> >> >> > between 7th
>> >> >> >> > and 8th Streets in the right-bottom corner.
>> >> >> Can
>> >> >> >> anybody peg the year of
>> >> >> >> > the photo better than the description on the
>> >> >> retro
>> >> >> >> Milwaukee website?
>> >> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> >
>> >> >> >> >
>> >> >> >> >
>> >> >> >> >
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >
>> >
>> >
>>
>>
>>
>
>
> 



From yance at oldmilwaukee.net  Thu Mar 17 12:14:06 2011
From: yance at oldmilwaukee.net (Y Marti)
Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2011 12:14:06 -0400
Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: Name of the Milwaukee Train Station
 During 1969
In-Reply-To: <0ABE6504F06B46B7BF352B7A4FB1DA80@KTJosephson>
References: <859863.7101.qm@web120705.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
 <0ABE6504F06B46B7BF352B7A4FB1DA80@KTJosephson>
Message-ID: <20110317121406.16433h9aotse4rok@horde.oldmilwaukee.net>

Milwaukee Road owned the new station so it was called the Milwaukee  
Road Station until May 1, 1971 when it became the Amtrak Station. The  
C&NW Station closed on May 15, 1966 and then routed their trains to  
the new Milwaukee Road station as reported in the Milwaukee Sentinel  
the next day.

Yance

Quoting Ken and Tracie <ktjosephson at embarqmail.com>:

> So Scott, both railroads used the new station from the very beginning, in
> 1965?
>
> I remember seeing the C&NW station not long before it was torn down.
>
> K.
>


From ktjosephson at embarqmail.com  Thu Mar 17 12:15:35 2011
From: ktjosephson at embarqmail.com (Ken and Tracie)
Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2011 09:15:35 -0700
Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: Name of the Milwaukee Train Station During 1969
References: <125523.81392.qm@web120717.mail.ne1.yahoo.com><B864A4B554BD41BF9FFB79C698AEFE11@KTJosephson><AANLkTikUC+LYaV1ZvjciRfbAWBWAEEk821LQbcurVJq5@mail.gmail.com><F09F8579B2A74CF0B0355B8A8640C23B@KTJosephson><AANLkTimQeMgJ1VMC5NnLwc8ihAyYe1uZosMtsnLZc8UG@mail.gmail.com> <AANLkTi=sVGDps+OtgrcrDZhu8hJt89D9GqCHxC3rCBPo@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <03E3B5D2BB7442AE898055E7E14A0EA4@KTJosephson>

Yeah, slang name, or whatever most locals may have called it.

K.

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Larry Allan" <lallan45 at gmail.com>
To: <milwaukee-electric at lists.dementia.org>
Sent: Thursday, March 17, 2011 8:37 AM
Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: Name of the Milwaukee Train Station During 
1969


> Ken, are you thinking of a Slang Name, such as the old Mecca complex that
> was know as the "Big Video Recorder"?
> On Thu, Mar 17, 2011 at 10:30 AM, Larry Allan <lallan45 at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> No, I do not recall. I could only suggest doing a search of the Google 
>> News
>> Archives.
>>
>> On Thu, Mar 17, 2011 at 10:22 AM, Ken and Tracie <
>> ktjosephson at embarqmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Larry, would you know what most locals called the new station by 1969?
>>>
>>> K.
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Larry Allan" <lallan45 at gmail.com>
>>> To: <milwaukee-electric at lists.dementia.org>
>>> Sent: Thursday, March 17, 2011 8:20 AM
>>> Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: Name of the Milwaukee Train Station
>>> During
>>> 1969
>>>
>>>
>>> >I remember the Clock Tower was left standing for awhile. I also heard 
>>> >the
>>> > rumor that the First Wisconsin wanted the Station down for it was
>>> > obstructing their view of the Lake.
>>> > On Thu, Mar 17, 2011 at 10:12 AM, Ken and Tracie
>>> > <ktjosephson at embarqmail.com
>>> >> wrote:
>>> >
>>> >> Yeah, it was empty when I visited it. Became quite derelict in such a
>>> >> short
>>> >> period of time, like former United States Disciplinary Barracks on
>>> North
>>> >> Hopkins did, after the Army moved the Reserve unit to the former Nike
>>> >> buildings on the south end of the property, circa 1969.
>>> >>
>>> >> K.
>>> >> ----- Original Message -----
>>> >> From: "Scott Greig" <sbgreig_m1 at yahoo.com>
>>> >> To: <milwaukee-electric at lists.dementia.org>
>>> >> Sent: Thursday, March 17, 2011 7:53 AM
>>> >> Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: Name of the Milwaukee Train Station
>>> >> During
>>> >> 1969
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >> > Yes, give or take a year on the C&NW.  I'd have to check my copy of
>>> >> > "The
>>> >> > 400 Story" to be sure.  The lakefront station sat vacant for a few
>>> >> > years
>>> >> > (and had at least one fire) before the City of Milwaukee put 
>>> >> > pressure
>>> >> > on
>>> >> > the railroad and it was razed.
>>> >> >
>>> >> > A rotten shame that it was.
>>> >> >
>>> >> > --- On Thu, 3/17/11, Ken and Tracie <ktjosephson at embarqmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>> >> >
>>> >> >> From: Ken and Tracie <ktjosephson at embarqmail.com>
>>> >> >> Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: Name of the Milwaukee Train
>>> Station
>>> >> >> During 1969
>>> >> >> To: milwaukee-electric at lists.dementia.org
>>> >> >> Date: Thursday, March 17, 2011, 9:47 AM
>>> >> >> So Scott, both railroads used the new
>>> >> >> station from the very beginning, in
>>> >> >> 1965?
>>> >> >>
>>> >> >> I remember seeing the C&NW station not long before it
>>> >> >> was torn down.
>>> >> >>
>>> >> >> K.
>>> >> >>
>>> >> >> ----- Original Message -----
>>> >> >> From: "Scott Greig" <sbgreig_m1 at yahoo.com>
>>> >> >> To: <milwaukee-electric at lists.dementia.org>
>>> >> >> Sent: Thursday, March 17, 2011 7:29 AM
>>> >> >> Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: Name of the Milwaukee
>>> >> >> Train Station During
>>> >> >> 1969
>>> >> >>
>>> >> >>
>>> >> >> >I think the C&NW station on the lakefront closed
>>> >> >> around 1965. It was
>>> >> >> >demolished in 1968.
>>> >> >> >
>>> >> >> > --- On Thu, 3/17/11, Ken and Tracie <ktjosephson at embarqmail.com>
>>> >> >> wrote:
>>> >> >> >
>>> >> >> >> From: Ken and Tracie <ktjosephson at embarqmail.com>
>>> >> >> >> Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: Name of the
>>> >> >> Milwaukee Train Station
>>> >> >> >> During 1969
>>> >> >> >> To: milwaukee-electric at lists.dementia.org
>>> >> >> >> Date: Thursday, March 17, 2011, 9:27 AM
>>> >> >> >> Thanks for the replies, people.
>>> >> >> >>
>>> >> >> >> My family called it "The Milwaukee Road Station",
>>> >> >> too. But
>>> >> >> >> I believe at some
>>> >> >> >> point, circa 1967(?), the C&NW station on the
>>> >> >> lakefront
>>> >> >> >> closed and their
>>> >> >> >> trains also used the new station on St.Paul
>>> >> >> Avenue.
>>> >> >> >>
>>> >> >> >> So what was it known as during 1969? Was it still
>>> >> >> called
>>> >> >> >> "The Milwaukee Road
>>> >> >> >> Station" by 1969?
>>> >> >> >>
>>> >> >> >> K.
>>> >> >> >> ----- Original Message -----
>>> >> >> >> From: "Y Marti" <yance at oldmilwaukee.net>
>>> >> >> >> To: <milwaukee-electric at lists.dementia.org>;
>>> >> >> >> "Gary Schnabl"
>>> >> >> >> <gSchnabl at SWDetroit.com>
>>> >> >> >> Sent: Wednesday, March 16, 2011 2:40 PM
>>> >> >> >> Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: Name of the
>>> >> >> Milwaukee
>>> >> >> >> Train Station During
>>> >> >> >> 1969
>>> >> >> >>
>>> >> >> >>
>>> >> >> >> > The picture would have been soon after the
>>> >> >> Public
>>> >> >> >> Museum was open in 1963.
>>> >> >> >> >
>>> >> >> >> >>
>>> >> >> >> >>
>>> >> >> >> > Quoting Gary Schnabl <gSchnabl at SWDetroit.com>:
>>> >> >> >> >
>>> >> >> >> > This 1950s or 1960s aerial photo just barely
>>> >> >> shows the
>>> >> >> >> luggage
>>> >> >> >> > company, the subway entrance, and some
>>> >> >> visible
>>> >> >> >> remnants of the PROW
>>> >> >> >> > between 7th
>>> >> >> >> > and 8th Streets in the right-bottom corner.
>>> >> >> Can
>>> >> >> >> anybody peg the year of
>>> >> >> >> > the photo better than the description on the
>>> >> >> retro
>>> >> >> >> Milwaukee website?
>>> >> >> >> >>
>>> >> >> >> >>
>>> >> >> >> >
>>> >> >> >> >
>>> >> >> >> >
>>> >> >> >> >
>>> >> >> >>
>>> >> >> >>
>>> >> >> >>
>>> >> >> >
>>> >> >>
>>> >> >>
>>> >> >>
>>> >> >
>>> >> >
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>
>
> 



From ktjosephson at embarqmail.com  Thu Mar 17 12:18:01 2011
From: ktjosephson at embarqmail.com (Ken and Tracie)
Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2011 09:18:01 -0700
Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: Name of the Milwaukee Train Station During 1969
References: <859863.7101.qm@web120705.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <0ABE6504F06B46B7BF352B7A4FB1DA80@KTJosephson> <20110317121406.16433h9aotse4rok@horde.oldmilwaukee.net>
Message-ID: <4B4ABCCF25DB4C05AD7A9C7F5CEA80CF@KTJosephson>

Thanks, Yance.

I remember the little C&NW herald over one corner of the entrance, but we 
always thought of it as the Milwaukee Road station or depot.

K.

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Y Marti" <yance at oldmilwaukee.net>
To: <milwaukee-electric at lists.dementia.org>
Sent: Thursday, March 17, 2011 9:14 AM
Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: Name of the Milwaukee Train Station During 
1969


> Milwaukee Road owned the new station so it was called the Milwaukee
> Road Station until May 1, 1971 when it became the Amtrak Station. The
> C&NW Station closed on May 15, 1966 and then routed their trains to
> the new Milwaukee Road station as reported in the Milwaukee Sentinel
> the next day.
>
> Yance
>
> Quoting Ken and Tracie <ktjosephson at embarqmail.com>:
>
>> So Scott, both railroads used the new station from the very beginning, in
>> 1965?
>>
>> I remember seeing the C&NW station not long before it was torn down.
>>
>> K.
>>
> 



From gSchnabl at SWDetroit.com  Thu Mar 17 12:26:11 2011
From: gSchnabl at SWDetroit.com (Gary Schnabl)
Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2011 12:26:11 -0400
Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: Name of the Milwaukee Train Station
 During 1969
In-Reply-To: <B864A4B554BD41BF9FFB79C698AEFE11@KTJosephson>
References: <125523.81392.qm@web120717.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <B864A4B554BD41BF9FFB79C698AEFE11@KTJosephson>
Message-ID: <4D823623.2090904@SWDetroit.com>

Was there an airport or heliport facilities at the Hopkins site? I 
remember my parents driving past it at night dropping off a friend of 
mine around the early 1950s, and there were some strings of colored 
lights at grade. I assume that it was the same location.


On 3/17/2011 11:12 AM, Ken and Tracie wrote:
> Yeah, it was empty when I visited it. Became quite derelict in such a short
> period of time, like former United States Disciplinary Barracks on North
> Hopkins did, after the Army moved the Reserve unit to the former Nike
> buildings on the south end of the property, circa 1969.
>
> K.

-- 

Gary Schnabl
Southwest Detroit, two miles NORTH! of Canada--Windsor, that is...

Technical Editor forum <http://TechnicalEditor.LivernoisYard.com/phpBB3/>





From sunrise at bikethehoan.com  Thu Mar 17 13:02:37 2011
From: sunrise at bikethehoan.com (William Sell)
Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2011 12:02:37 -0500
Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: Fun Billboard, Just in Time for
  the Spring Construction Season
In-Reply-To: <5383-4D80F6B6-442@storefull-3171.bay.webtv.net>
References: <William Sell <sunrise@bikethehoan.com>
 <5383-4D80F6B6-442@storefull-3171.bay.webtv.net>
Message-ID: <4d823ea2.685b340a.1415.4be7@mx.google.com>

Don

At the Hillcrest location, or near it, there was a Co-op.  An actual 
store; I remember buying from there once, but the regular shops were 
closer to our house - east of Highway 100 on Forest Home. But I do 
remember the store; and have a vague recollection of fuel tanks in 
that area.  Not sure if the Co-op and fuel tanks were part of the 
same operation, but I believe they were. I have no recollection of 
Standard Oil - perhaps that was earlier.

Bill



At 12:43 PM 3/16/2011, Don L. Leistikow wrote:
>Bill Sell and list:   Hillcrest, as it was known, was the site of a very
>small Standard Oil facility, a local supply of oil, perhaps, possibly
>gasoline.  No one on duty, just the round storage tanks.
>
>In the old days, tracing old timetables and services, it was apparent
>that while some cars ran through to Burlington and East Troy, it was a
>common practice to run a stub car between St.Martins and Burlington.
>This car, one of the 1107 - 1110 series former MN rebuilds, would use
>the wye to turn the car.  So, an East Troy car would then disembark
>passengers for Stations on the Burlington line.  Eastbound (north)
>passengers coming in from Burlingtion, would make connection with an
>Eastbound car from East Troy at 
>St.Martins.
>
>The old original substation, was cleared out and the mainfloor used as a
>waiting room for those passengers who lived there or simply made
>connecitons.
>
>With he advent of total abandonment of the B and ET lines in 1938 and
>1939, the service was cut back to Hales Corners.  The three wooden
>former MN cars, rebuilt into double-ended, air door suburban cars (1102,
>1103 and 1104) between PSB and WJ, were now to be used for through
>service via WJ to HC
>
>As the Standard Oil facility and the WEPCO Line Pole Yard were still
>located at Hillcrest, trackage was maintained to that location.
>Rush-hour traffic became too heavy with gas rationing during WW 2,
>requiring either duplex trans or two singles in mu, to handle the
>crowds. To accomodate the single ended cars, a loop was constructed at
>Hillcrest. Traffic became so strong that meets were arranged at Oklahoma
>and Brookfield (Layton Avenue) Sidings.
>
>Don L .
>
>

**********************************
"So much has been destroyed, I have cast my lot with those who, age 
after age, perversely, with no extraordinary power, reconstitute the 
world." -- Adrienne Rich  



From ktjosephson at embarqmail.com  Thu Mar 17 13:04:36 2011
From: ktjosephson at embarqmail.com (Ken and Tracie)
Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2011 10:04:36 -0700
Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: Name of the Milwaukee Train Station During 1969
References: <125523.81392.qm@web120717.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <B864A4B554BD41BF9FFB79C698AEFE11@KTJosephson> <4D823623.2090904@SWDetroit.com>
Message-ID: <5C3EAA8701324397AE0665D562CDA58C@KTJosephson>

The Army Reserve has had a heliport there for decades, Gary. And they still 
have one now. What color were the lights, if you can recall?

K.
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Gary Schnabl" <gSchnabl at SWDetroit.com>
To: <milwaukee-electric at lists.dementia.org>
Sent: Thursday, March 17, 2011 9:26 AM
Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: Name of the Milwaukee Train Station During 
1969


> Was there an airport or heliport facilities at the Hopkins site? I
> remember my parents driving past it at night dropping off a friend of
> mine around the early 1950s, and there were some strings of colored
> lights at grade. I assume that it was the same location.
>
>
> On 3/17/2011 11:12 AM, Ken and Tracie wrote:
>> Yeah, it was empty when I visited it. Became quite derelict in such a 
>> short
>> period of time, like former United States Disciplinary Barracks on North
>> Hopkins did, after the Army moved the Reserve unit to the former Nike
>> buildings on the south end of the property, circa 1969.
>>
>> K.
>
> -- 
>
> Gary Schnabl
> Southwest Detroit, two miles NORTH! of Canada--Windsor, that is...
>
> Technical Editor forum <http://TechnicalEditor.LivernoisYard.com/phpBB3/>
>
>
>
> 



From don0731 at gte.net  Thu Mar 17 13:23:02 2011
From: don0731 at gte.net (Don Ross)
Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2011 12:23:02 -0500
Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: Name of the Milwaukee Train  Station
 During 1969
In-Reply-To: <4B4ABCCF25DB4C05AD7A9C7F5CEA80CF@KTJosephson>
References: <859863.7101.qm@web120705.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
 <0ABE6504F06B46B7BF352B7A4FB1DA80@KTJosephson>
 <20110317121406.16433h9aotse4rok@horde.oldmilwaukee.net>
 <4B4ABCCF25DB4C05AD7A9C7F5CEA80CF@KTJosephson>
Message-ID: <0LI7002VEPMHUNY2@vms173017.mailsrvcs.net>

I thought they had kept the tower after the CNW station destroyed.  I 
have used the picture of the station as the front page on Don's 
Depot.  It was the last place I worked for the C&NW.  Actually I 
worked at the Chase Tower in 1957 but I met with the superintendent 
at the depot to end my rail employment.  A couple years later I went 
to REA which was really rail employment.  I had enough time so that I 
am now on Rail Retirement.
My first job in 1949 was the Milwaukee Road freight house on Fowler 
St which was a block south of the depot.  The building with the 
beautiful Teutonic tower was THE DEPOT.  I carried messages from the 
freight house to THE DEPOT.  I have a postcard showing Union Depot 
and others show as CM&StP Depot.
Don

At 11:18 AM 3/17/2011, you wrote:
>Thanks, Yance.
>
>I remember the little C&NW herald over one corner of the entrance, but we
>always thought of it as the Milwaukee Road station or depot.
>
>K.




From don0731 at gte.net  Thu Mar 17 13:44:21 2011
From: don0731 at gte.net (Don Ross)
Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2011 12:44:21 -0500
Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: Name of the Milwaukee Train  Station
 During 1969
In-Reply-To: <4D823623.2090904@SWDetroit.com>
References: <125523.81392.qm@web120717.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
 <B864A4B554BD41BF9FFB79C698AEFE11@KTJosephson> <4D823623.2090904@SWDetroit.com>
Message-ID: <0LI700JRTQM16Q34@vms173003.mailsrvcs.net>

I remember the airport on the north side which I think was at 
Hopkins.  Dad took me to see the new huge airplane.  It was a Ford 
Tri-motor.  I don't think was really new since there were Douglas 
DC-1 in 1933 and the Fords were built in 1927 and later.
I was pretty young at the time and I wasn't doing History stuff yet.
Don

At 11:26 AM 3/17/2011, you wrote:
>Was there an airport or heliport facilities at the Hopkins site? I
>remember my parents driving past it at night dropping off a friend of
>mine around the early 1950s, and there were some strings of colored
>lights at grade. I assume that it was the same location.




From gSchnabl at SWDetroit.com  Thu Mar 17 14:05:42 2011
From: gSchnabl at SWDetroit.com (Gary Schnabl)
Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2011 14:05:42 -0400
Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: Name of the Milwaukee Train  Station
 During 1969
In-Reply-To: <0LI700JRTQM16Q34@vms173003.mailsrvcs.net>
References: <125523.81392.qm@web120717.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <B864A4B554BD41BF9FFB79C698AEFE11@KTJosephson> <4D823623.2090904@SWDetroit.com> <0LI700JRTQM16Q34@vms173003.mailsrvcs.net>
Message-ID: <4D824D76.1080901@SWDetroit.com>

On 3/17/2011 1:44 PM, Don Ross wrote:
> I remember the airport on the north side which I think was at
> Hopkins.  Dad took me to see the new huge airplane.  It was a Ford
> Tri-motor.  I don't think was really new since there were Douglas
> DC-1 in 1933 and the Fords were built in 1927 and later.
> I was pretty young at the time and I wasn't doing History stuff yet.
> Don
Henry Ford built the first US airport, which today is one of Ford's 
proving grounds in Dearborn near some of Ford's component operations 
near Greenfield Village that eventually were spun off in 2000. It had a 
restaurant and a hotel, I think. It was built around 1935 on Airport 
Drive, now called Rotunda Drive, where the Ford Rotunda was later built. 
The Rotunda itself burned to the ground when some roofers set the place 
afire when their asphalt caught fire on the roof in 1962.

Henry Ford also started his own AM radio station during the 1920s and 
owned two railroads that serviced Ford's plants. One was partially 
electrified--the Detroit Toledo and Ironton. During 1929, 129,000 
employees worked at the Dearborn Ford Rouge Plant, one mile west of my 
home here in SW Detroit. They made just about everything: coke from 
coal, steam and electricity from water from the waste heat, iron from 
ore, cement from the slag, steel for the cars, and farm tractors, 
Eagle-class subchasers, cars starting with the 1928 Model A, etc. My 
maternal grandfather worked his entire career there.

Before Ford started Ford--his third company--he started Cadillac a 
couple years earlier. Before that, he was the chief engineer at Detroit 
Edison and built the most popular racing-car engines during the 1890s. 
Ford never met Tom Edison until late in his career, but they became 
big-time buddies, along with the Firestone family after WWI..

-- 

Gary Schnabl
Southwest Detroit, two miles NORTH! of Canada--Windsor, that is...

Technical Editor forum <http://TechnicalEditor.LivernoisYard.com/phpBB3/>





From gSchnabl at SWDetroit.com  Thu Mar 17 14:11:32 2011
From: gSchnabl at SWDetroit.com (Gary Schnabl)
Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2011 14:11:32 -0400
Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: Name of the Milwaukee Train Station
 During 1969
In-Reply-To: <5C3EAA8701324397AE0665D562CDA58C@KTJosephson>
References: <125523.81392.qm@web120717.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <B864A4B554BD41BF9FFB79C698AEFE11@KTJosephson> <4D823623.2090904@SWDetroit.com> <5C3EAA8701324397AE0665D562CDA58C@KTJosephson>
Message-ID: <4D824ED4.7050207@SWDetroit.com>

I was not a pilot until 1971 (when I purchased a  1966 Cessna C-150F for 
$3000), so I did not know the purpose of the various colored lights back 
during the early 1950s. Since then, I also became an FAA-certificated 
A&P (Airframe & Powerplant) mechanic.
I believe the lights were blue, and some were white. But, that is just a 
guess from a faded memory of some 60 years ago.

On 3/17/2011 1:04 PM, Ken and Tracie wrote:
> The Army Reserve has had a heliport there for decades, Gary. And they still
> have one now. What color were the lights, if you can recall?
>
> K.

-- 

Gary Schnabl
Southwest Detroit, two miles NORTH! of Canada--Windsor, that is...

Technical Editor forum <http://TechnicalEditor.LivernoisYard.com/phpBB3/>





From DLeistikow at webtv.net  Thu Mar 17 16:45:43 2011
From: DLeistikow at webtv.net (Don L. Leistikow)
Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2011 15:45:43 -0500
Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: Fun Billboard, Just in Time for the
	Spring Construction Season
In-Reply-To: William Sell <sunrise@bikethehoan.com>'s message of Thu, 17
	Mar 2011 12:02:37 -0500
Message-ID: <5378-4D8272F7-3262@storefull-3171.bay.webtv.net>

Bill S and list;   Yes, you are correct, in that there was a business
just SW of the HC Loop.                                                  

At the time of Speedrail, htat business was a gasoline station with a
sales floor in the building, much like today's Gas Stations.  A like
business remains on that site.                                                          

The Standard Oil facility was a small collection of horizontal tanks
with a Standard Oil nameplate affixed.  This business (whatever) was
east of the HC loop and east of the lead track to the WEPCO Line Pole
Yard.                           

See Plate 6 in the TM book.                      

The Standard Oil facility is not shown on that map so, I expect that a
search of City Records should show it.                                                   

Don L .   



From jdl896 at wi.rr.com  Thu Mar 17 17:13:09 2011
From: jdl896 at wi.rr.com (jdl896 at wi.rr.com)
Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2011 17:13:09 -0400
Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: Name of the Milwaukee Train Station
 During 1969
In-Reply-To: <136347.83487.qm@web81904.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20110317211310.IN6IX.17226.root@hrndva-web04-z01>

That's right everyone!

Even though I seen to be one of the 'youngsters' in this crowd, by the time I was 10 or 11, I hung out downtown. Thehe lakefront station was already closed, but all the train tracks were still there. I remember peeking through a boarded up window of the station and saying what a shame it was to have that beautiful site meet the wrecking ball! It was about the same time that the Elizabeth Plankinton mansion near 16th and Wisconsin was torn down, despite the words of those who wanted to save our historical buildings.
As far as the depot at the lake was concerned, remember that the destination sign of the route 12 bus always read "NW DEPOT" so that solves the question of the depots name!
John L


From DLeistikow at webtv.net  Thu Mar 17 18:38:15 2011
From: DLeistikow at webtv.net (Don L. Leistikow)
Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2011 17:38:15 -0500
Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: Name of the Milwaukee Train Station
	During 1969
In-Reply-To: <jdl896@wi.rr.com>'s message of Thu, 17 Mar 2011 17:13:09 -0400
Message-ID: <23186-4D828D57-923@storefull-3172.bay.webtv.net>

John L and list:   The Routes 12 and 17 (later route 23) streetcars that
termnated at the C&NW Lakefront Station, were also, so signed.                                                 

For the record.... Don L.    



From gSchnabl at SWDetroit.com  Thu Mar 17 19:14:30 2011
From: gSchnabl at SWDetroit.com (Gary Schnabl)
Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2011 19:14:30 -0400
Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: Name of the Milwaukee Train Station
 During 1969
In-Reply-To: <20110317211310.IN6IX.17226.root@hrndva-web04-z01>
References: <20110317211310.IN6IX.17226.root@hrndva-web04-z01>
Message-ID: <4D8295D6.4050801@SWDetroit.com>

  I will add my me too on this one. But I would hardly be an expert on it.
Those in my family, friends, etc. in the near NW side of Milwaukee 
during the 1950s always referred to the CNW station as the North West 
Depot, but they would not say NW. The bus used NW in order to save 
space. But when times change, so does the lingo, terms, and such. I 
still say "Sout Site," although I only rarely have been on the South Side.

There were at least two Plankington mansions on Wisconsin. My father was 
a KC member, so that when I attended MU, because of my father's 
membership, I was allowed to use the third-floor billiard room in the 
Plankington mansion the KC used--on the north side of the street around 
15th Street or so.


On 3/17/2011 5:13 PM, jdl896 at wi.rr.com wrote:
> That's right everyone!
>
> Even though I seen to be one of the 'youngsters' in this crowd, by the time I was 10 or 11, I hung out downtown. Thehe lakefront station was already closed, but all the train tracks were still there. I remember peeking through a boarded up window of the station and saying what a shame it was to have that beautiful site meet the wrecking ball! It was about the same time that the Elizabeth Plankinton mansion near 16th and Wisconsin was torn down, despite the words of those who wanted to save our historical buildings.
> As far as the depot at the lake was concerned, remember that the destination sign of the route 12 bus always read "NW DEPOT" so that solves the question of the depots name!
> John L
-- 

Gary Schnabl
Southwest Detroit, two miles NORTH! of Canada--Windsor, that is...

Technical Editor forum <http://TechnicalEditor.LivernoisYard.com/phpBB3/>





From gSchnabl at SWDetroit.com  Thu Mar 17 19:36:48 2011
From: gSchnabl at SWDetroit.com (Gary Schnabl)
Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2011 19:36:48 -0400
Subject: [milwaukee-electric] 9th street
Message-ID: <4D829B10.1030201@SWDetroit.com>

Could somebody discus where exactly the non-ROW tracks at the 
interurban/Aldrich Chemical Building went when east of 9th Street, as 
seen in this photo: 
http://www.thetransportco.com/imagelib/sitebuilder/misc/show_image.html?linkedwidth=actual&linkpath=http://www.thetransportco.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/mrtramp001.jpg&target=tlx_new 
<http://www.thetransportco.com/imagelib/sitebuilder/misc/show_image.html?linkedwidth=actual&linkpath=http://www.thetransportco.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/mrtramp001.jpg&target=tlx_new>?
Did the track or tracks just to the south of the ROW there head into the 
subway? And the tracks at grade? Did they ever extend to the east beyond 
8th Street. I saw a photo once at 8th and Hibernia, but could not be 
sure if there were extra tracks south of the ROW, or was that track just 
the other ROW track?

And what were the other buildings on both sides of Hibernia in this 
photo, other than the obvious Aldrich building?
-- 

Gary Schnabl
Southwest Detroit, two miles NORTH! of Canada--Windsor, that is...

Technical Editor forum <http://TechnicalEditor.LivernoisYard.com/phpBB3/>





From sbgreig_m1 at yahoo.com  Thu Mar 17 20:28:21 2011
From: sbgreig_m1 at yahoo.com (Scott Greig)
Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2011 17:28:21 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: 9th street
In-Reply-To: <4D829B10.1030201@SWDetroit.com>
Message-ID: <194174.52216.qm@web120720.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>

The track leading down to the subway-to-be was essentially a long tail track, for the visible yard tracks at 10th Street and additional tracks no longer present in this view.? Originally there were tracks for express cars that ran under and alongside the Shelf; by this time the express service was long gone and the dock space was being used by Motor Transport Company.
--- On Thu, 3/17/11, Gary Schnabl <gSchnabl at SWDetroit.com> wrote:

From: Gary Schnabl <gSchnabl at SWDetroit.com>
Subject: [milwaukee-electric] 9th street
To: milwaukee-electric at lists.dementia.org
Date: Thursday, March 17, 2011, 6:36 PM

Could somebody discus where exactly the non-ROW tracks at the 
interurban/Aldrich Chemical Building went when east of 9th Street, as 
seen in this photo: 
http://www.thetransportco.com/imagelib/sitebuilder/misc/show_image.html?linkedwidth=actual&linkpath=http://www.thetransportco.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/mrtramp001.jpg&target=tlx_new 
<http://www.thetransportco.com/imagelib/sitebuilder/misc/show_image.html?linkedwidth=actual&linkpath=http://www.thetransportco.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/mrtramp001.jpg&target=tlx_new>?
Did the track or tracks just to the south of the ROW there head into the 
subway? And the tracks at grade? Did they ever extend to the east beyond 
8th Street. I saw a photo once at 8th and Hibernia, but could not be 
sure if there were extra tracks south of the ROW, or was that track just 
the other ROW track?

And what were the other buildings on both sides of Hibernia in this 
photo, other than the obvious Aldrich building?
-- 

Gary Schnabl
Southwest Detroit, two miles NORTH! of Canada--Windsor, that is...

Technical Editor forum <http://TechnicalEditor.LivernoisYard.com/phpBB3/>







From DLeistikow at webtv.net  Thu Mar 17 21:43:51 2011
From: DLeistikow at webtv.net (Don L. Leistikow)
Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2011 20:43:51 -0500
Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: 9th street
In-Reply-To: Gary Schnabl <gSchnabl@SWDetroit.com>'s message of Thu, 17 Mar
	2011 19:36:48 -0400
Message-ID: <5381-4D82B8D7-2794@storefull-3171.bay.webtv.net>

Gary S and list:   First of all, 9th street did not come through between
8th and 10th streets.  Next, the Aldrich building was, at that time...
the General Electric Building at 940 West St.Paul Avenue.                               

The photo you sent as a url (and duplicated) is looking west from 8th
street.  A 60 class Speedrail car is approaching 8th.  The ramp that it
is on, covers  the planned  double track space approach to the Subway.                           

The 1100 class cars stored on the double track run-around, is on the
grade from the elevated structure downward. to the Subway entrance.
That track ran into thw Subway and had switches for cars to come back on
the lower, streetlevel  surface where the Merchandise, less-than-carload
freight was loaded or unloaded, back in the 1930's.                    

On the far right side of your photo, is.... Hibernia Street, largely
serving garages for the homes facing  Clybourn street.  Hibernia was
only four blocks long,... 8th to 12th streets.  Ninth and Eleventh
streets did not come south of Clybourn street, nor north of St.Paul
Avenue.           

If you own of have access to... a copy of CERA's Bulletin #112... the TM
Book...there are maps of this property and some additional excellent
photos of the then Rapid Transit Freight Terminal.          

Don  L .                     



From don0731 at gte.net  Thu Mar 17 22:02:27 2011
From: don0731 at gte.net (Don Ross)
Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2011 21:02:27 -0500
Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: 9th street
In-Reply-To: <5381-4D82B8D7-2794@storefull-3171.bay.webtv.net>
References: <Gary Schnabl <gSchnabl@SWDetroit.com>
 <5381-4D82B8D7-2794@storefull-3171.bay.webtv.net>
Message-ID: <0LI800K6MDO6YY81@vms173005.mailsrvcs.net>

It was interesting to see the 2 cars in the middle lines.  The roofs 
are different.  The one on the right was 607, owned by the Railroad 
Historical Society.  The left side car was a birney.  There were 2 
and Kansas City 1535 was probably this one.  The other birney was 
owned by Jay Maeder,  I don't know where he kept it.
When the line was ending, the RHS group scrapped their cars.  It left 
us a feeling that some of us were cheated.
Don (the younger)




From lallan45 at gmail.com  Thu Mar 17 22:03:07 2011
From: lallan45 at gmail.com (Larry Allan)
Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2011 21:03:07 -0500
Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: 9th street
In-Reply-To: <5381-4D82B8D7-2794@storefull-3171.bay.webtv.net>
References: <gSchnabl@SWDetroit.com>
	<5381-4D82B8D7-2794@storefull-3171.bay.webtv.net>
Message-ID: <AANLkTik78mn6_cGnfpq8a5PdkuAO6YXkYoFQ=Wnh=rpj@mail.gmail.com>

Attached is one of the maps.
On Thu, Mar 17, 2011 at 8:43 PM, Don L. Leistikow <DLeistikow at webtv.net>wrote:

> Gary S and list:   First of all, 9th street did not come through between
> 8th and 10th streets.  Next, the Aldrich building was, at that time...
> the General Electric Building at 940 West St.Paul Avenue.
>
> The photo you sent as a url (and duplicated) is looking west from 8th
> street.  A 60 class Speedrail car is approaching 8th.  The ramp that it
> is on, covers  the planned  double track space approach to the Subway.
>
> The 1100 class cars stored on the double track run-around, is on the
> grade from the elevated structure downward. to the Subway entrance.
> That track ran into thw Subway and had switches for cars to come back on
> the lower, streetlevel  surface where the Merchandise, less-than-carload
> freight was loaded or unloaded, back in the 1930's.
>
> On the far right side of your photo, is.... Hibernia Street, largely
> serving garages for the homes facing  Clybourn street.  Hibernia was
> only four blocks long,... 8th to 12th streets.  Ninth and Eleventh
> streets did not come south of Clybourn street, nor north of St.Paul
> Avenue.
>
> If you own of have access to... a copy of CERA's Bulletin #112... the TM
> Book...there are maps of this property and some additional excellent
> photos of the then Rapid Transit Freight Terminal.
>
> Don  L .
>
>
>



-- Attached file removed by Ecartis and put at URL below --
-- Type: image/jpeg
-- Size: 271k (278282 bytes)
-- URL : http://lists.dementia.org/files/milwaukee-electric/TMdiagram1%20(2).jpg




From sbgreig_m1 at yahoo.com  Thu Mar 17 23:07:01 2011
From: sbgreig_m1 at yahoo.com (Scott Greig)
Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2011 20:07:01 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: 9th street
In-Reply-To: <0LI800K6MDO6YY81@vms173005.mailsrvcs.net>
Message-ID: <632738.11613.qm@web120704.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>

Did the RHF group actually scrap them?? I was always under the impression that Hyman-Michaels mistakenly scrapped them along with the Speedrail property.
--- On Thu, 3/17/11, Don Ross <don0731 at gte.net> wrote:

From: Don Ross <don0731 at gte.net>
Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: 9th street
To: milwaukee-electric at lists.dementia.org
Date: Thursday, March 17, 2011, 9:02 PM

It was interesting to see the 2 cars in the middle lines.? The roofs 
are different.? The one on the right was 607, owned by the Railroad 
Historical Society.? The left side car was a birney.? There were 2 
and Kansas City 1535 was probably this one.? The other birney was 
owned by Jay Maeder,? I don't know where he kept it.
When the line was ending, the RHS group scrapped their cars.? It left 
us a feeling that some of us were cheated.
Don (the younger)






From yance at oldmilwaukee.net  Thu Mar 17 23:37:54 2011
From: yance at oldmilwaukee.net (Y Marti)
Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2011 23:37:54 -0400
Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: 9th street
In-Reply-To: <4D829B10.1030201@SWDetroit.com>
References: <4D829B10.1030201@SWDetroit.com>
Message-ID: <20110317233754.12833zxk5nsdw96o@horde.oldmilwaukee.net>

I can do better than explain:

http://oldmilwaukee.net/forum/download/Tracks.jpg

That is looking north and approximately in the late 1940s. The track  
goes straight until it's adjacent to the alley where it turns and  
heads east on Clybourn. The subway can be seen splitting off the main  
line to to the south. Just to be clear, the "subway" was never  
underground because it was never completed. It was built as an open  
cut and would have been covered if the funding didn't stop.

Yance

Quoting Gary Schnabl <gSchnabl at SWDetroit.com>:

> Could somebody discus where exactly the non-ROW tracks at the
> interurban/Aldrich Chemical Building went when east of 9th Street, as
> seen in this photo:
> http://www.thetransportco.com/imagelib/sitebuilder/misc/show_image.html?linkedwidth=actual&linkpath=http://www.thetransportco.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/mrtramp001.jpg&target=tlx_new
> <http://www.thetransportco.com/imagelib/sitebuilder/misc/show_image.html?linkedwidth=actual&linkpath=http://www.thetransportco.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/mrtramp001.jpg&target=tlx_new>?
> Did the track or tracks just to the south of the ROW there head into the
> subway? And the tracks at grade? Did they ever extend to the east beyond
> 8th Street. I saw a photo once at 8th and Hibernia, but could not be
> sure if there were extra tracks south of the ROW, or was that track just
> the other ROW track?
>
> And what were the other buildings on both sides of Hibernia in this
> photo, other than the obvious Aldrich building?
> --
>
> Gary Schnabl
> Southwest Detroit, two miles NORTH! of Canada--Windsor, that is...
>
> Technical Editor forum <http://TechnicalEditor.LivernoisYard.com/phpBB3/>
>
>
>
>
>




From ktjosephson at embarqmail.com  Thu Mar 17 23:42:52 2011
From: ktjosephson at embarqmail.com (Ken and Tracie)
Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2011 20:42:52 -0700
Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: Name of the Milwaukee Train  Station During 1969
References: <125523.81392.qm@web120717.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <B864A4B554BD41BF9FFB79C698AEFE11@KTJosephson> <4D823623.2090904@SWDetroit.com> <0LI700JRTQM16Q34@vms173003.mailsrvcs.net>
Message-ID: <363AF5A772DE477BAAEF36B7F0B22290@KTJosephson>

There is Timmerman Field, which was once known as Curtis Wright Field. It is 
located at Hampton and 92nd, stretching to Appleton Avenue.

K.

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Don Ross" <don0731 at gte.net>
To: <milwaukee-electric at lists.dementia.org>
Sent: Thursday, March 17, 2011 10:44 AM
Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: Name of the Milwaukee Train Station During 
1969


>I remember the airport on the north side which I think was at
> Hopkins.  Dad took me to see the new huge airplane.  It was a Ford
> Tri-motor.  I don't think was really new since there were Douglas
> DC-1 in 1933 and the Fords were built in 1927 and later.
> I was pretty young at the time and I wasn't doing History stuff yet.
> Don
>
> At 11:26 AM 3/17/2011, you wrote:
>>Was there an airport or heliport facilities at the Hopkins site? I
>>remember my parents driving past it at night dropping off a friend of
>>mine around the early 1950s, and there were some strings of colored
>>lights at grade. I assume that it was the same location.
>
>
> 



From don0731 at gte.net  Thu Mar 17 23:51:03 2011
From: don0731 at gte.net (Don Ross)
Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2011 22:51:03 -0500
Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: Name of the Milwaukee Train  Station
 During 1969
In-Reply-To: <363AF5A772DE477BAAEF36B7F0B22290@KTJosephson>
References: <125523.81392.qm@web120717.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
 <B864A4B554BD41BF9FFB79C698AEFE11@KTJosephson>
 <4D823623.2090904@SWDetroit.com> <0LI700JRTQM16Q34@vms173003.mailsrvcs.net>
 <363AF5A772DE477BAAEF36B7F0B22290@KTJosephson>
Message-ID: <0LI800ILSIP6WLX1@vms173001.mailsrvcs.net>

That is it.  We only knew of Curtis Wright.  Old guys can't always 
remember stuff.

Don


At 10:42 PM 3/17/2011, you wrote:
>There is Timmerman Field, which was once known as Curtis Wright Field. It is
>located at Hampton and 92nd, stretching to Appleton Avenue.
>
>K.




From gSchnabl at SWDetroit.com  Fri Mar 18 00:33:00 2011
From: gSchnabl at SWDetroit.com (Gary Schnabl)
Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2011 00:33:00 -0400
Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: Name of the Milwaukee Train  Station
 During 1969
In-Reply-To: <363AF5A772DE477BAAEF36B7F0B22290@KTJosephson>
References: <125523.81392.qm@web120717.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <B864A4B554BD41BF9FFB79C698AEFE11@KTJosephson> <4D823623.2090904@SWDetroit.com> <0LI700JRTQM16Q34@vms173003.mailsrvcs.net> <363AF5A772DE477BAAEF36B7F0B22290@KTJosephson>
Message-ID: <4D82E07C.1060303@SWDetroit.com>

On 3/17/2011 11:42 PM, Ken and Tracie wrote:
> There is Timmerman Field, which was once known as Curtis Wright Field. It is
> located at Hampton and 92nd, stretching to Appleton Avenue.
>
> K.
Timmerman is a fairly large general-aviation airport. I landed there 
once when the Goodyear blimp was parked there for some event or another. 
I flew in from Madison to visit my folks, and the blimp was a few feet 
off the ground on the grass part of the airport. Some (at least one) 
runway is grass. I reckon the blimp used that one.

How large was the field off Hopkins? I remember it being east of the 
street. Was that area all developed by 1950? I remember there still 
being military barracks near there when I started driving around 1960. 
My grandfather sold his 30 acres at 42nd and Capitol in 1928 and moved 
to the Lower Rio Grande when he was in his middle 40s.

Back around then, Sherman Blvd--Milwaukee's last macadam street 
(1932?)--only went north as far as Hope (1/4 mile north of Capitol). A 
few years later, a block on Sherman about two blocks north of Congress 
(Lincoln Creek) was not built yet. That stream that now enters Lincoln 
Creek at 47th Street meandered in that area north of Congress and went 
as far east as 44th Street until the WPA in the 1930s dug a straight N/S 
trench and relocated it at 47th. That was the same creek that was at 
49th and Hampton.

When I attended kindergarten at Pleasant  View school (49th/50th and 
Capitol) in 1948, the Milwaukee city limits sign was located at 49th 
Street then.

-- 

Gary Schnabl
Southwest Detroit, two miles NORTH! of Canada--Windsor, that is...

Technical Editor forum <http://TechnicalEditor.LivernoisYard.com/phpBB3/>





From don0731 at gte.net  Fri Mar 18 00:44:18 2011
From: don0731 at gte.net (Don Ross)
Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2011 23:44:18 -0500
Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: 9th street
In-Reply-To: <632738.11613.qm@web120704.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
References: <0LI800K6MDO6YY81@vms173005.mailsrvcs.net>
 <632738.11613.qm@web120704.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <0LI8005MRL5XBO62@vms173017.mailsrvcs.net>

It was not an accident.  The original board set up rules which 
practically owned the organization.  Then half of them were 
drafted.  The old ERA Chapter was taken into  RHF and got new board 
members.  They did a lot of work but they realized that the future 
was pretty bad.  The board announced that they would up the 
dues.  Others like me thought it was too much and we quit.  That 
meant that all of the assets were able to be split up by the board 
members.  It made some friendships ended.  I have no problem with any 
of them and a few are still alive.
Don


At 10:07 PM 3/17/2011, you wrote:
>Did the RHF group actually scrap them?  I was always under the 
>impression that Hyman-Michaels mistakenly scrapped them along with 
>the Speedrail property.




From gSchnabl at SWDetroit.com  Fri Mar 18 01:18:59 2011
From: gSchnabl at SWDetroit.com (Gary Schnabl)
Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2011 01:18:59 -0400
Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: 9th street
In-Reply-To: <20110317233754.12833zxk5nsdw96o@horde.oldmilwaukee.net>
References: <4D829B10.1030201@SWDetroit.com> <20110317233754.12833zxk5nsdw96o@horde.oldmilwaukee.net>
Message-ID: <4D82EB43.50609@SWDetroit.com>

Great picture! BTW, I live on a quiet dead-end street (essentially 
abutting) Livernois Yard--the former NYC yard in Detroit. It had two 
roundhouses and a huge concrete coaling tower (still exists). My street 
is the only residential street cutting into the yard--14 houses. Once, 
it housed a stockyard too. Livernois Yard is still run by Conrail--as a 
terminal railroad, even though Conrail was sold to the Norfolk Southern 
and CSX. The yard is a few miles long, ending at the Ford Rouge plant, 
but much of it was rationalized (abandoned) during the 1970s and 1980s. 
If one were to connect the HQs of GM and Ford--about ten miles apart, 
the centerpoint of that line would almost be dead-on my place. The ROW 
for the Amtrak goes through the yard less than 1000 feet north of here, 
whose original ROW dates back to 1836 or so.
http://www.knorek.com/RR/SAA/MichiganLine/Livernois.htm
http://www.knorek.com/RR/SAA/MichiganLine/NYC_E8_WestJunctionYD.htm
http://www.knorek.com/RR/SAA/MichiganLine/DJTO.htm
http://www.michiganrailroads.com/RRHX/Stations/CountyStations/WayneStations/DetroitTerminal/LivernoisYard(MC).htm
http://www.michiganrailroads.com/RRHX/Pictures/Photos/001-005/Photo004C.htm
http://www.michiganrailroads.com/RRHX/Pictures/Photos/001-005/Photo004D.htm
http://www.michiganrailroads.com/RRHX/CoalFacilities/MCDetroit(Livernois)MI.htm
http://www.michiganrailroads.com/RRHX/Stations/CountyStations/WayneStations/DetroitTerminal/WestDetroitMI.htm
http://www.michiganrailroads.com/RRHX/Pictures/Photos/021-025/Photo022C.htm
http://www.michiganrailroads.com/RRHX/imagesRRHX/WestDetroitInterlockingDiagram1974[MarkDobronski].pdf

Was the grade level at 940 W. St. Paul lower than Hibernia or 8th 
Street? It seems that way...

And that large billboard at 8th: was that intended to be viewed by the 
train passengers?


Gary




On 3/17/2011 11:37 PM, Y Marti wrote:
> I can do better than explain:
>
> http://oldmilwaukee.net/forum/download/Tracks.jpg
>
> That is looking north and approximately in the late 1940s. The track
> goes straight until it's adjacent to the alley where it turns and
> heads east on Clybourn. The subway can be seen splitting off the main
> line to to the south. Just to be clear, the "subway" was never
> underground because it was never completed. It was built as an open
> cut and would have been covered if the funding didn't stop.
>
> Yanc


-- 

Gary Schnabl
Southwest Detroit, two miles NORTH! of Canada--Windsor, that is...

Technical Editor forum <http://TechnicalEditor.LivernoisYard.com/phpBB3/>





From lallan45 at gmail.com  Fri Mar 18 02:09:25 2011
From: lallan45 at gmail.com (Larry Allan)
Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2011 01:09:25 -0500
Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: Name of the Milwaukee Train Station
 During 1969
In-Reply-To: <4D82E07C.1060303@SWDetroit.com>
References: <125523.81392.qm@web120717.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
	<B864A4B554BD41BF9FFB79C698AEFE11@KTJosephson>
	<4D823623.2090904@SWDetroit.com>
	<0LI700JRTQM16Q34@vms173003.mailsrvcs.net>
	<363AF5A772DE477BAAEF36B7F0B22290@KTJosephson>
	<4D82E07C.1060303@SWDetroit.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTim504eNSs_g3GvoRCMK12Q=dsPepOZM4CJ8rnmg@mail.gmail.com>

Photo of the Goodyear Blimp at Timmerman Field.
On Thu, Mar 17, 2011 at 11:33 PM, Gary Schnabl <gSchnabl at swdetroit.com>wrote:

> On 3/17/2011 11:42 PM, Ken and Tracie wrote:
> > There is Timmerman Field, which was once known as Curtis Wright Field. It
> is
> > located at Hampton and 92nd, stretching to Appleton Avenue.
> >
> > K.
> Timmerman is a fairly large general-aviation airport. I landed there
> once when the Goodyear blimp was parked there for some event or another.
> I flew in from Madison to visit my folks, and the blimp was a few feet
> off the ground on the grass part of the airport. Some (at least one)
> runway is grass. I reckon the blimp used that one.
>
> How large was the field off Hopkins? I remember it being east of the
> street. Was that area all developed by 1950? I remember there still
> being military barracks near there when I started driving around 1960.
> My grandfather sold his 30 acres at 42nd and Capitol in 1928 and moved
> to the Lower Rio Grande when he was in his middle 40s.
>
> Back around then, Sherman Blvd--Milwaukee's last macadam street
> (1932?)--only went north as far as Hope (1/4 mile north of Capitol). A
> few years later, a block on Sherman about two blocks north of Congress
> (Lincoln Creek) was not built yet. That stream that now enters Lincoln
> Creek at 47th Street meandered in that area north of Congress and went
> as far east as 44th Street until the WPA in the 1930s dug a straight N/S
> trench and relocated it at 47th. That was the same creek that was at
> 49th and Hampton.
>
> When I attended kindergarten at Pleasant  View school (49th/50th and
> Capitol) in 1948, the Milwaukee city limits sign was located at 49th
> Street then.
>
> --
>
> Gary Schnabl
> Southwest Detroit, two miles NORTH! of Canada--Windsor, that is...
>
> Technical Editor forum <http://TechnicalEditor.LivernoisYard.com/phpBB3/>
>
>
>
>
>



-- Attached file removed by Ecartis and put at URL below --
-- Type: image/jpeg
-- Size: 77k (79722 bytes)
-- URL : http://lists.dementia.org/files/milwaukee-electric/Blimp.jpg




From ktjosephson at embarqmail.com  Fri Mar 18 11:06:38 2011
From: ktjosephson at embarqmail.com (Ken and Tracie)
Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2011 08:06:38 -0700
Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: Name of the Milwaukee Train  Station During 1969
References: <125523.81392.qm@web120717.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <B864A4B554BD41BF9FFB79C698AEFE11@KTJosephson> <4D823623.2090904@SWDetroit.com> <0LI700JRTQM16Q34@vms173003.mailsrvcs.net> <363AF5A772DE477BAAEF36B7F0B22290@KTJosephson> <4D82E07C.1060303@SWDetroit.com>
Message-ID: <A01212B5EED347178C2E480E5CCFC240@KTJosephson>

I have attached a 1965 photo of the barracks, looking towards the northeast. 
I know that at that time, Sherman Boulevard ended just before the C&NW 
tracks, forcing a left turn  to reach Hopkins so you could continue north. A 
portion of Hopkins between Silver Spring and Florist(?) was replaced with 
Sherman Boulevard, perhaps during the late 1950s or early 1960s. I believe 
Hopkins was re-aligned on east side of Sherman to serve as a sort of 
frontage road. The city started replacing the wooden temporary streetlights 
in the area during 1969. WEPCO started replacing their power line poles 
along Hopkins between Florist and Woolworth Avenues at this time, but 
suspended the work, probably due to debate over what to do with the USDB 
site and the impending extension of Sherman Boulevard to Mill Road. There 
was a mix of new and old poles with temporary hardware holding the wires 
along the west side of Hopkins for several years. The wooden streetlight 
poles and their overhead circuits remained along the east side of the street 
during this time, too, long after new streetlight was installed elsewhere in 
the vicinity. I will have to research this and try to find out if there were 
plans to reconfigure Hopkins in this area in addition to extending Sherman 
Boulevard.
When Sherman Boulevard was extended to meet Hopkins on the North 43rd Street 
alignment at Mill Road, during the early 1970s, the Hopkins grade crossing 
with the C&NW was removed and Hopkins dead-ended at the crossing, near 
Woolworth Avenue.

Many of the wooden structures at the barracks were destroyed between 1971 
and 1973 or '74 by arson fires. The old House of Correction complex, which 
the Army took over during 1945 or '46 was heavily vandalized throughout the 
1970s. The Army Reserve had used part of the complex after the Disciplinary 
Barracks closed, but their operations were shifted south, across the 
Milwaukee Road tracks, to the Nike buildings after the Nike site was 
deactivated. The missile silos were up by the prison buildings, along the 
C&NW tracks. The silos were finally dismantled to make way for flood 
detention ponds for Lincoln Creek during the 1990s.

I will have to dig out one of my 1930s-'50s Milwaukee maps to see if there 
was an airfield east of Hopkins and north of Silver Spring.

K.

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Gary Schnabl" <gSchnabl at SWDetroit.com>
To: <milwaukee-electric at lists.dementia.org>
Sent: Thursday, March 17, 2011 9:33 PM
Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: Name of the Milwaukee Train Station During 
1969


> On 3/17/2011 11:42 PM, Ken and Tracie wrote:
>> There is Timmerman Field, which was once known as Curtis Wright Field. It 
>> is
>> located at Hampton and 92nd, stretching to Appleton Avenue.
>>
>> K.
> Timmerman is a fairly large general-aviation airport. I landed there
> once when the Goodyear blimp was parked there for some event or another.
> I flew in from Madison to visit my folks, and the blimp was a few feet
> off the ground on the grass part of the airport. Some (at least one)
> runway is grass. I reckon the blimp used that one.
>
> How large was the field off Hopkins? I remember it being east of the
> street. Was that area all developed by 1950? I remember there still
> being military barracks near there when I started driving around 1960.
> My grandfather sold his 30 acres at 42nd and Capitol in 1928 and moved
> to the Lower Rio Grande when he was in his middle 40s.
>
> Back around then, Sherman Blvd--Milwaukee's last macadam street
> (1932?)--only went north as far as Hope (1/4 mile north of Capitol). A
> few years later, a block on Sherman about two blocks north of Congress
> (Lincoln Creek) was not built yet. That stream that now enters Lincoln
> Creek at 47th Street meandered in that area north of Congress and went
> as far east as 44th Street until the WPA in the 1930s dug a straight N/S
> trench and relocated it at 47th. That was the same creek that was at
> 49th and Hampton.
>
> When I attended kindergarten at Pleasant  View school (49th/50th and
> Capitol) in 1948, the Milwaukee city limits sign was located at 49th
> Street then.
>
> -- 
>
> Gary Schnabl
> Southwest Detroit, two miles NORTH! of Canada--Windsor, that is...
>
> Technical Editor forum <http://TechnicalEditor.LivernoisYard.com/phpBB3/>
>
>
>
> 


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From DLeistikow at webtv.net  Fri Mar 18 12:01:43 2011
From: DLeistikow at webtv.net (Don L. Leistikow)
Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2011 11:01:43 -0500
Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: 9th street
In-Reply-To: Don Ross <don0731@gte.net>'s message of Thu, 17 Mar 2011
	21:02:27 -0500
Message-ID: <5381-4D8381E7-3559@storefull-3171.bay.webtv.net>

Don R and list:   Actually, TMER&L's 607 was to be saved and was run
over to the the 15th street Team Tracks that fronted on St.Paul Avenue.                                   

Unfortunately the leader of the RHS, Lew Martin, was in the Army at that
time.  The remaining members notified him of the situation and LM got an
emergency furlough to come home and deal with this issue.                                                       

The scrappers, not knowing otherwise, began to scrap the 607, by
destroying one end platform and pulling out the truck.  Apparently,
someone told them of the ownership and disposition, too late.           

Upon Lew Martin's arrival, the car was now no longer moveable on own
wheels so, the car was scrapped.  I had heard that The Transport Company
(TMER&T) was disappointed that this car was lost.  If notified, perhaps
they could have funded movement of it, perhaps to a Car Station or to
the Cold Spring Shops.                      

Does anyone else, have a slant on this ?   

Jogging my memory, weren't the two KC Birney cars the 1536 and 1540 ?
Someone has a photo of these cars arriving on property, on flat cars
behind the TM Box Motor M 14, on the so-called 3rd rail (freight line)
at 20th street.             

Historically speaking, the 607 was one of the improved cars (601 - 608)
that were refitted for Cudahy~South Milwaukee service in the mid-1920's,
preceding the acquisition of the new articulated trains (1031-32 ~
1049-50) built by St.Louis Car Company in 1930 for that service.             

Don L .



From DLeistikow at webtv.net  Fri Mar 18 12:12:37 2011
From: DLeistikow at webtv.net (Don L. Leistikow)
Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2011 11:12:37 -0500
Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: 9th street
In-Reply-To: Y Marti <yance@oldmilwaukee.net>'s message of Thu, 17 Mar 2011
	23:37:54 -0400
Message-ID: <5384-4D838475-1831@storefull-3171.bay.webtv.net>

Yance M and list:  Sorry, it was a Subway. 

It was covered separetly, on the east side of the 8th street bridge
which also crossed over the open area immediately west of the Subway.
There was a short gap between the bridge and the Subway entrance.                                                  

I would hazard a guess that it was some 100 feet deep, ending at the
west edge of the alley on the westside of the Milwaukee Plumbing &
Heating Supply building.                                                   

Don L .             



From sbgreig_m1 at yahoo.com  Fri Mar 18 12:18:50 2011
From: sbgreig_m1 at yahoo.com (Scott Greig)
Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2011 09:18:50 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: 9th street
In-Reply-To: <5381-4D8381E7-3559@storefull-3171.bay.webtv.net>
Message-ID: <561166.42253.qm@web120711.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>

I can vouch for 1540 and 1545; I have a picture of the 1540 at 10th St. yard, and a picture of the 1545 at Waukesha Gravel Pit in 1952, shortly before it was shipped to Ohio along with the body of 1138.  1536, I think, survives today down at St. Louis Museum of Transport.

Didn't Lew Martin (or somebody else from that era) have slides that suggested a total of *three* Birneys may have shown up?  I remember slides of the Birneys' delivery and unloading being shown at a TMER&THS meeting sometime in the 90s; something (either the car numbers or quantity delivered) caused a lot of commotion that night.

Scott.

--- On Fri, 3/18/11, Don L. Leistikow <DLeistikow at webtv.net> wrote:

> From: Don L. Leistikow <DLeistikow at webtv.net>
> Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: 9th street
> To: milwaukee-electric at lists.dementia.org
> Cc: emory1522 at wi.rr.com
> Date: Friday, March 18, 2011, 11:01 AM
> Don R and
> list:???Actually, TMER&L's 607 was to be
> saved and was run
> over to the the 15th street Team Tracks that fronted on
> St.Paul Avenue.? ? ? ? ? ?
> ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?
> ? ? ???
> 
> Unfortunately the leader of the RHS, Lew Martin, was in the
> Army at that
> time.? The remaining members notified him of the
> situation and LM got an
> emergency furlough to come home and deal with this
> issue.? ? ? ? ? ? ?
> ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?
> ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?
> ? ? ? ???
> 
> The scrappers, not knowing otherwise, began to scrap the
> 607, by
> destroying one end platform and pulling out the
> truck.? Apparently,
> someone told them of the ownership and disposition, too
> late.? ? ? ? ???
> 
> Upon Lew Martin's arrival, the car was now no longer
> moveable on own
> wheels so, the car was scrapped.? I had heard that The
> Transport Company
> (TMER&T) was disappointed that this car was lost.?
> If notified, perhaps
> they could have funded movement of it, perhaps to a Car
> Station or to
> the Cold Spring Shops.? ? ? ? ?
> ? ? ? ? ? ? 
> 
> Does anyone else, have a slant on this ????
> 
> Jogging my memory, weren't the two KC Birney cars the 1536
> and 1540 ?
> Someone has a photo of these cars arriving on property, on
> flat cars
> behind the TM Box Motor M 14, on the so-called 3rd rail
> (freight line)
> at 20th street.? ? ? ? ?
> ???
> 
> Historically speaking, the 607 was one of the improved cars
> (601 - 608)
> that were refitted for Cudahy~South Milwaukee service in
> the mid-1920's,
> preceding the acquisition of the new articulated trains
> (1031-32 ~
> 1049-50) built by St.Louis Car Company in 1930 for that
> service.? ? ? ? ?
> ???
> 
> Don L .
> 
> 
> 



From don0731 at gte.net  Fri Mar 18 12:48:31 2011
From: don0731 at gte.net (Don Ross)
Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2011 11:48:31 -0500
Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: 9th street
In-Reply-To: <5381-4D8381E7-3559@storefull-3171.bay.webtv.net>
References: <Don Ross <don0731@gte.net>
 <5381-4D8381E7-3559@storefull-3171.bay.webtv.net>
Message-ID: <0LI9006XAIP15FO2@vms173005.mailsrvcs.net>

Don L
I don't remember Lew Martin.  There were other original members and I 
am having a problem in remembering the names.  One was a fellow with 
an Italian name something like Valesano and another was a good artist 
who worked for Kalmbach.  I think Frank Butts was involved.  The guys 
who I blamed were McLeod, Wietzke, and Harper.  You can't carry a grudge.
I took the pictures of the Birneys.  I haven't used them on my site 
yet.  The car for Jay was 1545 and was the solid cream color car,  It 
went to Worthington, Ohio, and later parted out for the Fort Smith 
museum.  The RHS car was actually 1536.  It was renumbered 1540 
because that was the original purchase.  They swapped cars in Kansas City.
After 60 years views come from different directions.  They stick and 
usually don't have the total information.  In 1951, museums groups 
started and ended early.  There was little experience and we were in 
a funk.  We had the wonderful experience of Speedrail and then it 
went down and down.
Don


At 11:01 AM 3/18/2011, you wrote:
>Don R and list:   Actually, TMER&L's 607 was to be saved and was run
>over to the the 15th street Team Tracks that fronted on St.Paul 
>Avenue.
>
>Unfortunately the leader of the RHS, Lew Martin, was in the Army at that
>time.  The remaining members notified him of the situation and LM got an
>emergency furlough to come home and deal with this 
>issue.
>
>The scrappers, not knowing otherwise, began to scrap the 607, by
>destroying one end platform and pulling out the truck.  Apparently,
>someone told them of the ownership and disposition, too late.
>
>Upon Lew Martin's arrival, the car was now no longer moveable on own
>wheels so, the car was scrapped.  I had heard that The Transport Company
>(TMER&T) was disappointed that this car was lost.  If notified, perhaps
>they could have funded movement of it, perhaps to a Car Station or to
>the Cold Spring Shops.
>
>Does anyone else, have a slant on this ?
>
>Jogging my memory, weren't the two KC Birney cars the 1536 and 1540 ?
>Someone has a photo of these cars arriving on property, on flat cars
>behind the TM Box Motor M 14, on the so-called 3rd rail (freight line)
>at 20th street.
>
>Historically speaking, the 607 was one of the improved cars (601 - 608)
>that were refitted for Cudahy~South Milwaukee service in the mid-1920's,
>preceding the acquisition of the new articulated trains (1031-32 ~
>1049-50) built by St.Louis Car Company in 1930 for that service.
>
>Don L .




From DLeistikow at webtv.net  Fri Mar 18 12:51:01 2011
From: DLeistikow at webtv.net (Don L. Leistikow)
Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2011 11:51:01 -0500
Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: 9th street
In-Reply-To: Gary Schnabl <gSchnabl@SWDetroit.com>'s message of Fri, 18 Mar
	2011 01:18:59 -0400
Message-ID: <5383-4D838D75-2643@storefull-3171.bay.webtv.net>

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From don0731 at gte.net  Fri Mar 18 12:56:37 2011
From: don0731 at gte.net (Don Ross)
Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2011 11:56:37 -0500
Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: 9th street
In-Reply-To: <561166.42253.qm@web120711.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
References: <5381-4D8381E7-3559@storefull-3171.bay.webtv.net>
 <561166.42253.qm@web120711.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <0LI900G8RJ2JAJE2@vms173011.mailsrvcs.net>

I think I did the info on the Birneys at the same time Scott commented.
The St Louis car is 1533.
http://donsdepot.donrossgroup.net/dr2523.htm
The reason I hadn't mentioned this site is because I haven't scanned 
the pictures in Milwaukee.  I had extra prints which I sold on ebay a 
few years ago, but I didn't do it into the site.  I guess I have to 
dig more stuff.  I think I am now at the level of 20% used and 80% 
material to do.  It keeps me busy instead hanging around at the bar.
Don


At 11:18 AM 3/18/2011, you wrote:
>I can vouch for 1540 and 1545; I have a picture of the 1540 at 10th 
>St. yard, and a picture of the 1545 at Waukesha Gravel Pit in 1952, 
>shortly before it was shipped to Ohio along with the body of 
>1138.  1536, I think, survives today down at St. Louis Museum of Transport.
>
>Didn't Lew Martin (or somebody else from that era) have slides that 
>suggested a total of *three* Birneys may have shown up?  I remember 
>slides of the Birneys' delivery and unloading being shown at a 
>TMER&THS meeting sometime in the 90s; something (either the car 
>numbers or quantity delivered) caused a lot of commotion that night.
>
>Scott.




From sbgreig_m1 at yahoo.com  Fri Mar 18 12:57:55 2011
From: sbgreig_m1 at yahoo.com (Scott Greig)
Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2011 09:57:55 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: 9th street
In-Reply-To: <0LI9006XAIP15FO2@vms173005.mailsrvcs.net>
Message-ID: <123283.32166.qm@web120704.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>

Robert Valesano.  I remember his picture credits from CERA Bulletin 97.  He took the only picture I've ever seen of TM locomotive L2 (a small battery engine used for switching inside Cold Spring Shops).


--- On Fri, 3/18/11, Don Ross <don0731 at gte.net> wrote:

> From: Don Ross <don0731 at gte.net>
> Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: 9th street
> To: milwaukee-electric at lists.dementia.org
> Date: Friday, March 18, 2011, 11:48 AM
> Don L
> I don't remember Lew Martin.? There were other
> original members and I 
> am having a problem in remembering the names.? One was
> a fellow with 
> an Italian name something like Valesano and another was a
> good artist 
> who worked for Kalmbach.? I think Frank Butts was
> involved.? The guys 
> who I blamed were McLeod, Wietzke, and Harper.? You
> can't carry a grudge.
> I took the pictures of the Birneys.? I haven't used
> them on my site 
> yet.? The car for Jay was 1545 and was the solid cream
> color car,? It 
> went to Worthington, Ohio, and later parted out for the
> Fort Smith 
> museum.? The RHS car was actually 1536.? It was
> renumbered 1540 
> because that was the original purchase.? They swapped
> cars in Kansas City.
> After 60 years views come from different directions.?
> They stick and 
> usually don't have the total information.? In 1951,
> museums groups 
> started and ended early.? There was little experience
> and we were in 
> a funk.? We had the wonderful experience of Speedrail
> and then it 
> went down and down.
> Don
> 
> 
> At 11:01 AM 3/18/2011, you wrote:
> >Don R and list:???Actually, TMER&L's
> 607 was to be saved and was run
> >over to the the 15th street Team Tracks that fronted on
> St.Paul 
> >Avenue.
> >
> >Unfortunately the leader of the RHS, Lew Martin, was in
> the Army at that
> >time.? The remaining members notified him of the
> situation and LM got an
> >emergency furlough to come home and deal with this 
> >issue.
> >
> >The scrappers, not knowing otherwise, began to scrap
> the 607, by
> >destroying one end platform and pulling out the
> truck.? Apparently,
> >someone told them of the ownership and disposition, too
> late.
> >
> >Upon Lew Martin's arrival, the car was now no longer
> moveable on own
> >wheels so, the car was scrapped.? I had heard that
> The Transport Company
> >(TMER&T) was disappointed that this car was
> lost.? If notified, perhaps
> >they could have funded movement of it, perhaps to a Car
> Station or to
> >the Cold Spring Shops.
> >
> >Does anyone else, have a slant on this ?
> >
> >Jogging my memory, weren't the two KC Birney cars the
> 1536 and 1540 ?
> >Someone has a photo of these cars arriving on property,
> on flat cars
> >behind the TM Box Motor M 14, on the so-called 3rd rail
> (freight line)
> >at 20th street.
> >
> >Historically speaking, the 607 was one of the improved
> cars (601 - 608)
> >that were refitted for Cudahy~South Milwaukee service
> in the mid-1920's,
> >preceding the acquisition of the new articulated trains
> (1031-32 ~
> >1049-50) built by St.Louis Car Company in 1930 for that
> service.
> >
> >Don L .
> 
> 
> 
> 



From don0731 at gte.net  Fri Mar 18 13:43:38 2011
From: don0731 at gte.net (Don Ross)
Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2011 12:43:38 -0500
Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: 9th street
In-Reply-To: <123283.32166.qm@web120704.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
References: <0LI9006XAIP15FO2@vms173005.mailsrvcs.net>
 <123283.32166.qm@web120704.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <0LI900IL7L8WWLR6@vms173001.mailsrvcs.net>

I guess I was pretty close.

At 11:57 AM 3/18/2011, you wrote:
>Robert Valesano.  I remember his picture credits from CERA Bulletin 
>97.  He took the only picture I've ever seen of TM locomotive L2 (a 
>small battery engine used for switching inside Cold Spring Shops).
>




From yance at oldmilwaukee.net  Fri Mar 18 14:33:00 2011
From: yance at oldmilwaukee.net (Y Marti)
Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2011 14:33:00 -0400
Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: 9th street
In-Reply-To: <5383-4D838D75-2643@storefull-3171.bay.webtv.net>
References: <5383-4D838D75-2643@storefull-3171.bay.webtv.net>
Message-ID: <20110318143300.14215ij9eama6fds@horde.oldmilwaukee.net>

I had always heard the Hinman Street cut being referred to as the  
"subway" which would have made sense but obviously that was not the  
interurban line. I checked our city records to see if there was an 8th  
Street street overpass or bridge at that location and it shows up but  
the records are vague. I could see that the subway would follow  
underneath of St. Paul and then under Fourth Ward Square to the PSC.

I will have to try and dig up expressway demolition plans of the area  
which would very likely show the extent of the subway.

Very interesting.

Yance M

  Quoting "Don L. Leistikow" <DLeistikow at webtv.net>:

> Yance M and list:  Sorry, it was a Subway.
>
> It was covered separetly, on the east side of the 8th street bridge
> which also crossed over the open area immediately west of the Subway.
> There was a short gap between the bridge and the Subway entrance.
>
> I would hazard a guess that it was some 100 feet deep, ending at the
> west edge of the alley on the westside of the Milwaukee Plumbing &
> Heating Supply building.
>
> Don L .
>
>
>


From DLeistikow at webtv.net  Fri Mar 18 18:36:26 2011
From: DLeistikow at webtv.net (Don L. Leistikow)
Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2011 17:36:26 -0500
Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: 9th street
In-Reply-To: Y Marti <yance@oldmilwaukee.net>'s message of Fri, 18 Mar 2011
	14:33:00 -0400
Message-ID: <5378-4D83DE6A-5426@storefull-3171.bay.webtv.net>

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From gSchnabl at SWDetroit.com  Fri Mar 18 20:16:07 2011
From: gSchnabl at SWDetroit.com (Gary Schnabl)
Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2011 20:16:07 -0400
Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: 9th street
In-Reply-To: <5378-4D83DE6A-5426@storefull-3171.bay.webtv.net>
References: <5378-4D83DE6A-5426@storefull-3171.bay.webtv.net>
Message-ID: <4D83F5C7.1010601@SWDetroit.com>

BTW, what was the large building around 11th between Hibernia and Clybourn?
There were still lots of kids living near there six decades ago. Did 
some of them venture into the subway opening--both while the interurban 
was in business and afterward? I remember as a kid entering what now is 
considered the most polluted site in Milwaukee's storm-sewer system--the 
site at 47th Street into Lincoln Creek. The subway would surely be 
larger in height.

The Retro Milwaukee photo showed that the subway was quite accessible. 
Was it filled in or anything before the 1964 deconstruction of most 
everything not yet destroyed near there?

Gary

On 3/18/2011 6:36 PM, Don L. Leistikow wrote:
> Yance and list:  Your crusade to research the extent of the Subway, is
> admirable.
> Your rufusal to accept what has been written and documented, is an
> affront to all who contributed to its existance.
>
> I was employed by Jay Maeder, Speedrail's  President and Owner.  I wrote
> that while working the Line Car in early 1951, I accompanied the Lane
> Man into the Subway so that he could do a monthly inspection of the sump
> pump that was there to pump accumulating water out uf the far cornor of
> the Subway.  I've embelished this information with additional text to
> assure complete understanding, by all readers.
>
> But, please continue your pursuit of this topic as, you may find
> additional information on this topic.
>
> Don L. Leistikow
-- 

Gary Schnabl
Southwest Detroit, two miles NORTH! of Canada--Windsor, that is...

Technical Editor forum <http://TechnicalEditor.LivernoisYard.com/phpBB3/>





From don0731 at gte.net  Fri Mar 18 20:38:41 2011
From: don0731 at gte.net (Don Ross)
Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2011 19:38:41 -0500
Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Milwaukee Birneys
Message-ID: <0LIA002VY4GOFIV0@vms173011.mailsrvcs.net>

Here is a picture of 2 being recieved with M14.  I am trying their 
system in the hopes I can attach a picture.
Don
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From don0731 at gte.net  Fri Mar 18 20:46:32 2011
From: don0731 at gte.net (Don Ross)
Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2011 19:46:32 -0500
Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: Milwaukee Birneys
In-Reply-To: <0LIA002VY4GOFIV0@vms173011.mailsrvcs.net>
References: <0LIA002VY4GOFIV0@vms173011.mailsrvcs.net>
Message-ID: <0LIA00GNV4TQF6F4@vms173011.mailsrvcs.net>

Hey it works.
Here is another.  I used some real cheap film when I took these 
pictures.  It can be seen that the 40 was painted on over the old 
36.  I also have a picture of the 1536 painted over from 1536 at 
Kansas City.  Not in the scans yet.
Don


At 07:38 PM 3/18/2011, you wrote:
>Here is a picture of 2 being recieved with M14.  I am trying their
>system in the hopes I can attach a picture.
>Don
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From yance at oldmilwaukee.net  Fri Mar 18 23:11:44 2011
From: yance at oldmilwaukee.net (Y Marti)
Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2011 23:11:44 -0400
Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: 9th street
In-Reply-To: <5378-4D83DE6A-5426@storefull-3171.bay.webtv.net>
References: <5378-4D83DE6A-5426@storefull-3171.bay.webtv.net>
Message-ID: <20110318231144.962218c7jxw0avog@horde.oldmilwaukee.net>

I may have deleted that post inadvertently. Where was this written and  
documented? I'm not familiar with too many writings regarding this but  
would be interested in reading about it. I see Canfield talked about  
it in his book but again, I've never had an opportunity to read it.

Yance M.

Quoting "Don L. Leistikow" <DLeistikow at webtv.net>:

> Yance and list:  Your crusade to research the extent of the Subway, is
> admirable.
> Your rufusal to accept what has been written and documented, is an
> affront to all who contributed to its existance.
>
> I was employed by Jay Maeder, Speedrail's  President and Owner.  I wrote
> that while working the Line Car in early 1951, I accompanied the Lane
> Man into the Subway so that he could do a monthly inspection of the sump
> pump that was there to pump accumulating water out uf the far cornor of
> the Subway.  I've embelished this information with additional text to
> assure complete understanding, by all readers.
>
> But, please continue your pursuit of this topic as, you may find
> additional information on this topic.
>
> Don L. Leistikow
>



From DLeistikow at webtv.net  Fri Mar 18 23:34:06 2011
From: DLeistikow at webtv.net (Don L. Leistikow)
Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2011 22:34:06 -0500
Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: 9th street
In-Reply-To: Gary Schnabl <gSchnabl@SWDetroit.com>'s message of Fri, 18 Mar
	2011 20:16:07 -0400
Message-ID: <23182-4D84242E-5884@storefull-3172.bay.webtv.net>

Gary S and list;   Accessable, yes.  Acutally wide open along the GE
building extension (formerly the TMER&L, later Motor Transport Company,
used the two story extension to the east of the tall then GE Building.                                             

General Electric owned the building, when Speedrail operated through
there.              

When TMER&L dropped the 'Less than Car Load' freight service, 'Motor',
for short, continued to operate the trucking arm of TMER&L, as a
separate emtot;u.  I think that it was after WW 2, that 'Motor' actually
moved out to a new Terminal on Bluemound Road which was the old route
crossing the valley, adjacent to the new Wisconsin Avenue concrete
structure that spanned the Menomonee River Valley.      

Genersl Electric did have an Apparatus Service Shop on the main floor at
940 W.St.Paul avenue.  It was fully equiped for the rebuilding of
electric motors and transformers...of any size or manufacture. So, when
Speedrail quit, I got a job at the GE Apparatus Service Shop.. I was
going to use only the initials of the name above but, thought better of
it.  In addition, GE operated a Warehouse with new inventory of Motors
and Transformers at 900 W. St.Paul... first floor of the two story arm
east of the tall Building at 940.  The sedond floor was given over to
the Shop where motor coils were formed for rebuilding motors.  Of ote is
that the Shop was two stroies tall, clearance for overhead cranes.  And
the shop even had an indoor rail track where large motors or
transformers could be unloaded from  flat cars.  That was inside the
north wall of the tall 940 building.                                  

With "Motor" gone, there was little activity along the two story
structure at the 900 addrsss, venturing into the yard was easy. The old
open track space behind the buildings and under the deck, was now used
for employee private parking.                                                                            
As the last employee of Speedrail, Bill Schwerin, was holding the fort
at the top of the hill at the 10th street end of the property, I was
brown bagging my lunch and joining Bill for that half hour.               

Bill recounted that some interest in the Speedrail Property was shown as
visitors came out to see the line, using a remaining four wheeled
Speeder (motor car).  Of course, scrap dealers were present and even the
North Shore line, made an appearance.  Odd though, the speeder worked
just fine for the NSL folks but, just would not work when Scrappers came
along.                                              

One noon, I was coiming up the two track ramp to lunch with Bill and
discovered two children with newspaper and matches inside one of the
lightweight duplexes.  Of course, their intention was to light a fire.
I scolded them bravely and admonished them that secret cameras were
watchng them and that they could be identified and sent to jail, if they
did any damage or start a fire.                                                       

Sometimes, timing is everything.               

Don L. Leistikow



From DLeistikow at webtv.net  Fri Mar 18 23:42:35 2011
From: DLeistikow at webtv.net (Don L. Leistikow)
Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2011 22:42:35 -0500
Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: Milwaukee Birneys
In-Reply-To: Don Ross <don0731@gte.net>'s message of Fri, 18 Mar 2011
	19:38:41 -0500
Message-ID: <23186-4D84262B-1585@storefull-3172.bay.webtv.net>

Don R and list:   The photo downloaded, perfectly.  fwiw... that's
Dorecrest Poultry in the flat roofed building on top of the hill. 

I don't know who owned the other building to the east.                                               

Freeway expansion knocked out all the industires east, to and including
a fine brick building housing the Western Electric Company.  More
property tax dollars lost.                                               

There is nothing Free, about a Freeway !   

Don L. Leistikow



From DLeistikow at webtv.net  Fri Mar 18 23:56:44 2011
From: DLeistikow at webtv.net (Don L. Leistikow)
Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2011 22:56:44 -0500
Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: 9th street
In-Reply-To: Y Marti <yance@oldmilwaukee.net>'s message of Fri, 18 Mar 2011
	23:11:44 -0400
Message-ID: <23184-4D84297C-3234@storefull-3172.bay.webtv.net>

Yance M:   Just go back to Files on the list homepage.                                          

All lsit messages are held there.                

Don L.      



From gSchnabl at SWDetroit.com  Sat Mar 19 01:58:57 2011
From: gSchnabl at SWDetroit.com (Gary Schnabl)
Date: Sat, 19 Mar 2011 01:58:57 -0400
Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: 9th street
In-Reply-To: <20110318231144.962218c7jxw0avog@horde.oldmilwaukee.net>
References: <5378-4D83DE6A-5426@storefull-3171.bay.webtv.net> <20110318231144.962218c7jxw0avog@horde.oldmilwaukee.net>
Message-ID: <4D844621.9070504@SWDetroit.com>

I remember Don posting about his draining the hole before...
I also checked up on Dorecrest but only came up with this address: 125 
N. Muskego, wherever that was... Mapquest does not know of any such 
street. Dorecrest Poultry also showed up in some Orlando obit in 1995 
about the death of its owner:

HOWARD P. DORE, 81, Clearwater Lake Drive, Polk City, died Thursday, 
June 8. Mr. Dore was owner of Dorecrest Poultry. Born in Canada, he 
moved to Central Florida in 1975. He was a member of Mount Olive Baptist 
Church, Masons and Power Squadron. Survivors: wife, Ruth L.; son, Greg 
E., Orlando; daughter, Christie Braun, Harrisburg, Pa.; three 
grandchildren. National Cremation Society, Winter Park Chapter.




Gary

On 3/18/2011 11:11 PM, Y Marti wrote:
> I may have deleted that post inadvertently. Where was this written and
> documented? I'm not familiar with too many writings regarding this but
> would be interested in reading about it. I see Canfield talked about
> it in his book but again, I've never had an opportunity to read it.
>
> Yance M.
>
> Quoting "Don L. Leistikow"<DLeistikow at webtv.net>:
>
>> Yance and list:  Your crusade to research the extent of the Subway, is
>> admirable.
>> Your rufusal to accept what has been written and documented, is an
>> affront to all who contributed to its existance.
>>
>> I was employed by Jay Maeder, Speedrail's  President and Owner.  I wrote
>> that while working the Line Car in early 1951, I accompanied the Lane
>> Man into the Subway so that he could do a monthly inspection of the sump
>> pump that was there to pump accumulating water out uf the far cornor of
>> the Subway.  I've embelished this information with additional text to
>> assure complete understanding, by all readers.
>>
>> But, please continue your pursuit of this topic as, you may find
>> additional information on this topic.
>>
>> Don L. Leistikow
-- 

Gary Schnabl
Southwest Detroit, two miles NORTH! of Canada--Windsor, that is...

Technical Editor forum <http://TechnicalEditor.LivernoisYard.com/phpBB3/>





From DLeistikow at webtv.net  Sat Mar 19 02:33:20 2011
From: DLeistikow at webtv.net (Don L. Leistikow)
Date: Sat, 19 Mar 2011 01:33:20 -0500
Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: 9th street
In-Reply-To: Gary Schnabl <gSchnabl@SWDetroit.com>'s message of Sat, 19 Mar
	2011 01:58:57 -0400
Message-ID: <5378-4D844E30-6133@storefull-3171.bay.webtv.net>

Group:   Dorecrest Poultry as depicted in the photo of M 14 with the two
KC Birney Cars in tow.. was on Clybourn Street.  As was the Western
Electric building, further east.                                                         

The first leg of the I-94 Freeway was built, it was from downtown to
68th street.  As it was built on/over the Rapid Transit Line between 7th
street and roughly 28th street, all buildings on the south side of
Clybourn street, were demolished.             

The Marquette Interchange, came later.     

Don L.              



From gSchnabl at SWDetroit.com  Sat Mar 19 03:56:04 2011
From: gSchnabl at SWDetroit.com (Gary Schnabl)
Date: Sat, 19 Mar 2011 03:56:04 -0400
Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: 9th street
In-Reply-To: <5378-4D844E30-6133@storefull-3171.bay.webtv.net>
References: <5378-4D844E30-6133@storefull-3171.bay.webtv.net>
Message-ID: <4D846194.3030709@SWDetroit.com>

Yes, but...
The (1963?) Retro Milwaukee photo ( 
http://www.retrocom.com/retromilw/Mke-Downtown50s.jpg ) clearly shows 
that in 1963 most of the buildings south of Clybourn were still standing 
well after the East-West Freeway was built and opened in multiple 
stages. My recollection that the earliest "downtown" entrance ramp 
westbound was at 13th or was it 17th Street--with its low-mounted 
traffic signal metering the on traffic so that the freeway would not 
back up with cars. The first rendition of the MU interchange started in 
1964 or thereabouts. By then, most everything along the ROW except the 
GE/Aldrich Chemical building on St. Paul/Hibernia were toast.

Also, it appears from the 1963 shot that a "newer" building was erected 
before 1963 east of the alley from the PROW in the 700 block of Clybourn 
(apparently replacing some of the ancient buildings shown in that block 
in the late-1940s photo

( http://oldmilwaukee.net/forum/download/Tracks.jpg  ). The two? buildings do not appear to occupy the same footprint. Or maybe, I am looking at them differently...


Gary

.


On 3/19/2011 2:33 AM, Don L. Leistikow wrote:
> Group:   Dorecrest Poultry as depicted in the photo of M 14 with the two
> KC Birney Cars in tow.. was on Clybourn Street.  As was the Western
> Electric building, further east.
>
> The first leg of the I-94 Freeway was built, it was from downtown to
> 68th street.  As it was built on/over the Rapid Transit Line between 7th
> street and roughly 28th street, all buildings on the south side of
> Clybourn street, were demolished.
>
> The Marquette Interchange, came later.
>
> Don L.


-- 

Gary Schnabl
Southwest Detroit, two miles NORTH! of Canada--Windsor, that is...

Technical Editor forum <http://TechnicalEditor.LivernoisYard.com/phpBB3/>





From gSchnabl at SWDetroit.com  Sat Mar 19 04:14:54 2011
From: gSchnabl at SWDetroit.com (Gary Schnabl)
Date: Sat, 19 Mar 2011 04:14:54 -0400
Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Harrison Street station NSL
Message-ID: <4D8465FE.3000304@SWDetroit.com>

Was there such an NSL station?
http://www.flickr.com/photos/eddie-chicago-railfan/4952657447/
-- 

Gary Schnabl
Southwest Detroit, two miles NORTH! of Canada--Windsor, that is...

Technical Editor forum <http://TechnicalEditor.LivernoisYard.com/phpBB3/>





From sbgreig_m1 at yahoo.com  Sat Mar 19 07:43:10 2011
From: sbgreig_m1 at yahoo.com (Scott Greig)
Date: Sat, 19 Mar 2011 04:43:10 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: Harrison Street station NSL
In-Reply-To: <4D8465FE.3000304@SWDetroit.com>
Message-ID: <824121.28502.qm@web120703.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>

That's the storage yard just east of the 6th and Michigan terminal, in downtown Milwaukee.
--- On Sat, 3/19/11, Gary Schnabl <gSchnabl at SWDetroit.com> wrote:

From: Gary Schnabl <gSchnabl at SWDetroit.com>
Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Harrison Street station NSL
To: milwaukee-electric at lists.dementia.org
Date: Saturday, March 19, 2011, 3:14 AM

Was there such an NSL station?
http://www.flickr.com/photos/eddie-chicago-railfan/4952657447/
-- 

Gary Schnabl
Southwest Detroit, two miles NORTH! of Canada--Windsor, that is...

Technical Editor forum <http://TechnicalEditor.LivernoisYard.com/phpBB3/>








From gSchnabl at SWDetroit.com  Sat Mar 19 08:14:36 2011
From: gSchnabl at SWDetroit.com (Gary Schnabl)
Date: Sat, 19 Mar 2011 08:14:36 -0400
Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: Harrison Street station NSL
In-Reply-To: <824121.28502.qm@web120703.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
References: <824121.28502.qm@web120703.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <4D849E2C.1020302@SWDetroit.com>


Thanks. With the Schroeder Hotel in the background, I knew where it was. 
But was it called the Harrison Street station? There is a Harrison 
Street, south of Lincoln by the NSL ROW, though.

Back during 1966 or 1967, I helped out at Channel 19 when they needed an 
extra person for a few nights over that weekend when they relocated for 
good to their new digs at 35th Street, switching video at the Schroeder 
Hotel site feeding into 35th Street before that place signed off for 
good and went dark--fading to black. Quite a dumpy place, 'twas.

And as long as I am on the subject of streets, the Dorecrest Poultry 
place was listed as being at 125 N. Muskego--the former name for 
present-day Emmbers (roughly 12 1/2 Street). I suppose that the old 
street numbering place that 125 N. around Hibernia.


Gary

On 3/19/2011 7:43 AM, Scott Greig wrote:
> That's the storage yard just east of the 6th and Michigan terminal, in downtown Milwaukee.
> --- On Sat, 3/19/11, Gary Schnabl<gSchnabl at SWDetroit.com>  wrote:
>
> From: Gary Schnabl<gSchnabl at SWDetroit.com>
> Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Harrison Street station NSL
> To: milwaukee-electric at lists.dementia.org
> Date: Saturday, March 19, 2011, 3:14 AM
>
> Was there such an NSL station?
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/eddie-chicago-railfan/4952657447/


-- 

Gary Schnabl
Southwest Detroit, two miles NORTH! of Canada--Windsor, that is...

Technical Editor forum <http://TechnicalEditor.LivernoisYard.com/phpBB3/>





From don0731 at gte.net  Sat Mar 19 10:07:36 2011
From: don0731 at gte.net (Don Ross)
Date: Sat, 19 Mar 2011 09:07:36 -0500
Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: Harrison Street station NSL
In-Reply-To: <4D849E2C.1020302@SWDetroit.com>
References: <824121.28502.qm@web120703.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
 <4D849E2C.1020302@SWDetroit.com>
Message-ID: <0LIB00JY65WVUXJ1@vms173005.mailsrvcs.net>

Harrison was the end of the street  running and it was a shop.  There 
was a large wooden station with a freight house.  The shop was 4 
track plus another 4 or 5 tracks outside.  Attached to the shop was a 
rotary converter.
There is a whole section on the North Shore on my site
<http://donsdepot.donrossgroup.net/indexcns.htm>http://donsdepot.donrossgroup.net/indexcns.htm 

Don

At 07:14 AM 3/19/2011, you wrote:

>Thanks. With the Schroeder Hotel in the background, I knew where it was.
>But was it called the Harrison Street station? There is a Harrison
>Street, south of Lincoln by the NSL ROW, though.



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From yance at oldmilwaukee.net  Sat Mar 19 11:06:57 2011
From: yance at oldmilwaukee.net (Y Marti)
Date: Sat, 19 Mar 2011 11:06:57 -0400
Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: 9th street
In-Reply-To: <23184-4D84297C-3234@storefull-3172.bay.webtv.net>
References: <23184-4D84297C-3234@storefull-3172.bay.webtv.net>
Message-ID: <20110319110657.13067f8c4nln93sw@horde.oldmilwaukee.net>

I seem unable to access the site except for the listserv open directory:

http://lists.dementia.org/files/

If you could post a link, it would be appreciated.

Just a heads up to whoever has the administrative powers to the list  
directory, you have a huge amount of spam files in that directory  
which probably need to be deleted. These types of files are the ones  
which spammers use to clog everyone's email with cialis and viagra ads.

Just as an example of the type of files:

http://lists.dementia.org/files/milwaukee-electric/Aikins.png

There are more that are NSFW - not safe for work. It may be worthwhile  
to tighten up access or change passwords to stop this type of spam use.

Yance M

Quoting "Don L. Leistikow" <DLeistikow at webtv.net>:

> Yance M:   Just go back to Files on the list homepage.
>
> All lsit messages are held there.
>
> Don L.
>
>
>




From gSchnabl at SWDetroit.com  Sat Mar 19 11:41:39 2011
From: gSchnabl at SWDetroit.com (Gary Schnabl)
Date: Sat, 19 Mar 2011 11:41:39 -0400
Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: Harrison Street station NSL
In-Reply-To: <0LIB00JY65WVUXJ1@vms173005.mailsrvcs.net>
References: <824121.28502.qm@web120703.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <4D849E2C.1020302@SWDetroit.com> <0LIB00JY65WVUXJ1@vms173005.mailsrvcs.net>
Message-ID: <4D84CEB3.4040601@SWDetroit.com>

The caption of the photo I linked to before with the Schroeder Hotel in 
the background said:
Chicago, North Shore and Milwaukee interurban cars at the storage yard 
near the Harrison Street station. Milwaukee Wisconsin.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/eddie-chicago-railfan/4952657447/
That implied that the Harrison Street station was in downtown Milwaukee. 
Wouldn't the Harrison Street part of the caption be in error?

Another website mentioned that there was a yard on the Sout Site where 
the city cars continued to Oklahoma: Double-truck car 357 from St. Louis 
Car Co. heads south on 5th street and is about to enter
the yard at Harrison St. and enter private-right-of-way to the end of 
the city car
line at Oklahoma Ave.

http://www.trainweb.org/twerhs/northshore.html


Gary



On 3/19/2011 10:07 AM, Don Ross wrote:
> Harrison was the end of the street  running and it was a shop.  There
> was a large wooden station with a freight house.  The shop was 4
> track plus another 4 or 5 tracks outside.  Attached to the shop was a
> rotary converter.
> There is a whole section on the North Shore on my site
> <http://donsdepot.donrossgroup.net/indexcns.htm>http://donsdepot.donrossgroup.net/indexcns.htm
>
> Don
>
> At 07:14 AM 3/19/2011, you wrote:
>
>> Thanks. With the Schroeder Hotel in the background, I knew where it was.
>> But was it called the Harrison Street station? There is a Harrison
>> Street, south of Lincoln by the NSL ROW, though.
>
>
> -- Attached file removed by Ecartis and put at URL below --
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> -- URL : http://lists.dementia.org/files/milwaukee-electric/cns172.jpg
>
>
> -- Attached file removed by Ecartis and put at URL below --
> -- Type: application/octet-stream
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> -- URL : http://lists.dementia.org/files/milwaukee-electric/cns801c.jpg


-- 

Gary Schnabl
Southwest Detroit, two miles NORTH! of Canada--Windsor, that is...

Technical Editor forum <http://TechnicalEditor.LivernoisYard.com/phpBB3/>





From dick_myers at comcast.net  Sat Mar 19 12:00:38 2011
From: dick_myers at comcast.net (Dick Myers)
Date: Sat, 19 Mar 2011 11:00:38 -0500
Subject: [milwaukee-electric] CA&E website
Message-ID: <0F58C06A2F9C41AEB20928DEB0925CCF@DickPC>


For those of you on the list who are interested in other interurban rail lines and their history, if you have not seen this website on the Chicago, Aurora, & Elgin, you should check it out:

http://www.caerr.com/

Sadly, just a few weeks ago, Julie Johnson, the person largely responsible for this site, lost her battle against cancer.

I certainly have enjoyed the enthusiastic dialog on this list in the past weeks.

Regards.......Dick Myers


From rso1000 at hotmail.com  Sat Mar 19 12:35:07 2011
From: rso1000 at hotmail.com (Ron Smolen)
Date: Sat, 19 Mar 2011 11:35:07 -0500
Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: Harrison Street station NSL
Message-ID: <BAY162-w33E47D58AEFD42CF5D784CA0B30@phx.gbl>


Gary wrote....

> Date: Sat, 19 Mar 2011 11:41:39 -0400
> From: gSchnabl at SWDetroit.com
> To: milwaukee-electric at lists.dementia.org
> Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: Harrison Street station NSL
> 
> The caption of the photo I linked to before with the Schroeder Hotel in 
> the background said:
> Chicago, North Shore and Milwaukee interurban cars at the storage yard 
> near the Harrison Street station. Milwaukee Wisconsin.
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/eddie-chicago-railfan/4952657447/
> That implied that the Harrison Street station was in downtown Milwaukee. 

> Wouldn't the Harrison Street part of the caption be in error?

 
Gary trust the postings by the two DONS  -   Don Ross or Don Liestikow ! ! ! !

Although I'm from Chicago, and I admit I don't know much about Milwaukees North side,
I am quite familiar with the south side from having family friends living near 13th and Mitchell,
and being a life long Milwaukee trackless trolley and North Shore Fan. 

Downtown and Harrison are two " separate " locations.

There were small yards at both locations...   but Downtown and Harrison were several miles apart.

Downtown had a MAJOR station facility. I'll ask the DONS to correct me if I am wrong, but I believe
there was nothing more than a platform at Harrison St. 

So "yes" the caption was wrong.

While It's quite easy to put a WRONG caption with a photo - it's much harder to get it corrected.


Don L. LeistikowDLeistikow at webtv.net Send emailFind email 





> Date: Sat, 19 Mar 2011 11:41:39 -0400
> From: gSchnabl at SWDetroit.com
> To: milwaukee-electric at lists.dementia.org
> Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: Harrison Street station NSL
> 
> The caption of the photo I linked to before with the Schroeder Hotel in 
> the background said:
> Chicago, North Shore and Milwaukee interurban cars at the storage yard 
> near the Harrison Street station. Milwaukee Wisconsin.
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/eddie-chicago-railfan/4952657447/
> That implied that the Harrison Street station was in downtown Milwaukee. 
> Wouldn't the Harrison Street part of the caption be in error?
> 
> Another website mentioned that there was a yard on the Sout Site where 
> the city cars continued to Oklahoma: Double-truck car 357 from St. Louis 
> Car Co. heads south on 5th street and is about to enter
> the yard at Harrison St. and enter private-right-of-way to the end of 
> the city car
> line at Oklahoma Ave.
> 
> http://www.trainweb.org/twerhs/northshore.html
> 
> 
> Gary
> 
> 
> 
> On 3/19/2011 10:07 AM, Don Ross wrote:
> > Harrison was the end of the street  running and it was a shop.  There
> > was a large wooden station with a freight house.  The shop was 4
> > track plus another 4 or 5 tracks outside.  Attached to the shop was a
> > rotary converter.
> > There is a whole section on the North Shore on my site
> > <http://donsdepot.donrossgroup.net/indexcns.htm>http://donsdepot.donrossgroup.net/indexcns.htm
> >
> > Don
> >
> > At 07:14 AM 3/19/2011, you wrote:
> >
> >> Thanks. With the Schroeder Hotel in the background, I knew where it was.
> >> But was it called the Harrison Street station? There is a Harrison
> >> Street, south of Lincoln by the NSL ROW, though.
> >
> >
> > -- Attached file removed by Ecartis and put at URL below --
> > -- Type: application/octet-stream
> > -- Size: 87k (89178 bytes)
> > -- URL : http://lists.dementia.org/files/milwaukee-electric/cns172.jpg
> >
> >
> > -- Attached file removed by Ecartis and put at URL below --
> > -- Type: application/octet-stream
> > -- Size: 96k (98873 bytes)
> > -- URL : http://lists.dementia.org/files/milwaukee-electric/cns801c.jpg
> 
> 
> -- 
> 
> Gary Schnabl
> Southwest Detroit, two miles NORTH! of Canada--Windsor, that is...
> 
> Technical Editor forum <http://TechnicalEditor.LivernoisYard.com/phpBB3/>
> 
> 
> 
> 
 		 	   		  


From DLeistikow at webtv.net  Sat Mar 19 12:41:29 2011
From: DLeistikow at webtv.net (Don L. Leistikow)
Date: Sat, 19 Mar 2011 11:41:29 -0500
Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: 9th street
In-Reply-To: Gary Schnabl <gSchnabl@SWDetroit.com>'s message of Sat, 19 Mar
	2011 03:56:04 -0400
Message-ID: <5383-4D84DCB9-3651@storefull-3171.bay.webtv.net>

Gary:   Looking again at the Retro Milwaukee 1950's photo, ..  is
somewhat difficult as the location of the then GE bulding is way over at
the right side of this photo.                                                       

I can see and identify Wells, Wisconsin, Michigan and Clybourn streets.
Also evident, for our purposes are the Royal Hotel at 5th and Michigan,
the MILW Trainshed, The North Shore Terminal and the intersection of
6th, Clybourn,and St.Paul streets.                                         

The Court of Honor (the boulevard on Wisconsin Avenue) is clearly shown
thus identifying 8th, 9th, 10th, 11th and 12th streets.  Sliding over to
the far right is somewhat obscured and fuzzy.  That could be a problem
with my 'webber' and its limits.  However, it does appear that the east
end of the then GE property is somewhat cleared.  A rather small black
spot, could be the remaining entrance to the Subway.                                              

As for the 1963 photo, I have trouble with that date.  It looks like the
RTL ramp up to 8th street, is still there.  As I was employed there (GE)
in 1951, right after Speedrail shut down, that ramp was torn down.
Furthermore, there was a very tall Line Pole, from the ground up to way
over the track level.  There was a STOP board at the crossing, in both
directions.             

There hung that STOP board, way up in the air, untouchable.  One day I
came out and the very tall line pole... was down and cut in half...and
that sign? ...... Intact !  That sign is now in my basement.  So, what
I'm saying is, the yard was cleared in the late 1951-1952 era.                         


Furthermore, this photo is older than 1963.  Look at the railroad cars
at the bottom of the photo.  The tracks and Fowler Street LCL yard is
apparently still there.  As I recall, that operation was ended when the
railroads dumped the LCL traffic.  (LCL meaning Less than Car Load) as I
had posted earlier.  The land was cleared, as I recall  That space
became the site of the new, combined MILW and C&NW Passenger Station in
1965.                                                        

As for a new buiding on Clybourn in the 700 block.... ??????     I doubt
it.  What that is, I don't know.                                  

Don L .



From DLeistikow at webtv.net  Sat Mar 19 13:23:55 2011
From: DLeistikow at webtv.net (Don L. Leistikow)
Date: Sat, 19 Mar 2011 12:23:55 -0500
Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: Harrison Street station NSL
In-Reply-To: Gary Schnabl <gSchnabl@SWDetroit.com>'s message of Sat, 19 Mar
	2011 04:14:54 -0400
Message-ID: <5381-4D84E6AB-4996@storefull-3171.bay.webtv.net>

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Url: http://mailman.dementix.org/pipermail/milwaukee-electric/attachments/20110319/e9467894/attachment.pl 

From gSchnabl at SWDetroit.com  Sat Mar 19 13:31:41 2011
From: gSchnabl at SWDetroit.com (Gary Schnabl)
Date: Sat, 19 Mar 2011 13:31:41 -0400
Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: 9th street
In-Reply-To: <5383-4D84DCB9-3651@storefull-3171.bay.webtv.net>
References: <5383-4D84DCB9-3651@storefull-3171.bay.webtv.net>
Message-ID: <4D84E87D.8040409@SWDetroit.com>

Referring back to the Retro photo:
http://www.retrocom.com/retromilw/Mke-Downtown50s.jpg
What was the large building at the SW corner of 10th and Clybourn 
(ending at Hibernia)?

I thought that a different building might have been along the PROW alley 
between 7th and 8th. But the more I looked at it, it appears as it was 
what was left after it was razed. All of the buildings on the south side 
of Clybourn between 6th and 9th were gone.  However, some buildings on 
Hibernia between 8th and 10th are visible. The photo ends somewhere in 
the 900 block of Hibernia.

The subway entrance is very obvious, being right next to the ROW. It 
appears the same as I remember it from an ancient Milwaukee Journal 
article from some 70 years ago. It seems to be openly accessible...

The Blatz sign at the SE corner of 8th and Wisconsin was huge, taking up 
most of the side of that (8-story?) building, there. My parents' next 
door neighbor in Brookfield--Al Romans--owned most or all of the George 
Webb's in Milwaukee and Racine. There was one right near the corner of 
8th and Wisconsin, on the south side of Wisconsin then.

I also remember seeing on a website that apparently is no longer up some 
1964 photos of the ROW, showing that nearly everything between St Paul 
and Clybourn, especially between Clybourn and Hibernia except for 
Aldrich Chemical, was taken out during the 1964 activity So, I tend to 
agree with the 1963 date that another poster suggested. I doubt if it 
were later. Its caption suggested that it was from the 1960s, but 
another blurb also suggested it might have even been in the 1950s.

I am not a believer of photo captions, as that gallery of 1936 Milwaukee 
photos were loaded with bogus captions.


Gary


On 3/19/2011 12:41 PM, Don L. Leistikow wrote:
> Gary:   Looking again at the Retro Milwaukee 1950's photo, ..  is
> somewhat difficult as the location of the then GE bulding is way over at
> the right side of this photo.
>
> I can see and identify Wells, Wisconsin, Michigan and Clybourn streets.
> Also evident, for our purposes are the Royal Hotel at 5th and Michigan,
> the MILW Trainshed, The North Shore Terminal and the intersection of
> 6th, Clybourn,and St.Paul streets.
>
> The Court of Honor (the boulevard on Wisconsin Avenue) is clearly shown
> thus identifying 8th, 9th, 10th, 11th and 12th streets.  Sliding over to
> the far right is somewhat obscured and fuzzy.  That could be a problem
> with my 'webber' and its limits.  However, it does appear that the east
> end of the then GE property is somewhat cleared.  A rather small black
> spot, could be the remaining entrance to the Subway.
>
> As for the 1963 photo, I have trouble with that date.  It looks like the
> RTL ramp up to 8th street, is still there.  As I was employed there (GE)
> in 1951, right after Speedrail shut down, that ramp was torn down.
> Furthermore, there was a very tall Line Pole, from the ground up to way
> over the track level.  There was a STOP board at the crossing, in both
> directions.
>
> There hung that STOP board, way up in the air, untouchable.  One day I
> came out and the very tall line pole... was down and cut in half...and
> that sign? ...... Intact !  That sign is now in my basement.  So, what
> I'm saying is, the yard was cleared in the late 1951-1952 era.
>
>
> Furthermore, this photo is older than 1963.  Look at the railroad cars
> at the bottom of the photo.  The tracks and Fowler Street LCL yard is
> apparently still there.  As I recall, that operation was ended when the
> railroads dumped the LCL traffic.  (LCL meaning Less than Car Load) as I
> had posted earlier.  The land was cleared, as I recall  That space
> became the site of the new, combined MILW and C&NW Passenger Station in
> 1965.
>
> As for a new buiding on Clybourn in the 700 block.... ??????     I doubt
> it.  What that is, I don't know.
>
> Don L .


-- 

Gary Schnabl
Southwest Detroit, two miles NORTH! of Canada--Windsor, that is...

Technical Editor forum <http://TechnicalEditor.LivernoisYard.com/phpBB3/>





From don0731 at gte.net  Sat Mar 19 13:47:47 2011
From: don0731 at gte.net (Don Ross)
Date: Sat, 19 Mar 2011 12:47:47 -0500
Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: Harrison Street station NSL
In-Reply-To: <BAY162-w33E47D58AEFD42CF5D784CA0B30@phx.gbl>
References: <BAY162-w33E47D58AEFD42CF5D784CA0B30@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <0LIB002R7G4FFUO0@vms173009.mailsrvcs.net>

This is Don R, the younger Don (by one year)
Harrison Street station was the end of the street running.  There was 
a large yard with a shop.  This was on the east of the main 
line.  The shop was a major facility and serviced cars day and 
night.  On the west side of the main line was a large wooden 
station-office-freight house.  The city cars went to Oklahoma Ave 
which was only 3 blocks away.
221 was taken at the MD house.  They referred to Merchandise Dispatch 
rather than freight.
768 was taken after leaving the Harrison station.  The shops can be 
seen in the background.  The station itself was just off the right 
edge of the picture.
251 was taken coming into the Harrison station.  The tracks to the 
right behind the truck were the MD tracks.  The tracks to the left 
were the ones going into the shop area.  The shop area tracks were 
also used for the truck-trailer service.  It was a really busy area 
in the 1940s-1950s.


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From gSchnabl at SWDetroit.com  Sat Mar 19 13:39:15 2011
From: gSchnabl at SWDetroit.com (Gary Schnabl)
Date: Sat, 19 Mar 2011 13:39:15 -0400
Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: Harrison Street station NSL
In-Reply-To: <5381-4D84E6AB-4996@storefull-3171.bay.webtv.net>
References: <5381-4D84E6AB-4996@storefull-3171.bay.webtv.net>
Message-ID: <4D84EA43.3010604@SWDetroit.com>

I Mapquested the Harrison Street site earlier, and yes it could have 
been large, possibly two or more city blocks on the south side of 
Harrison. It seems to be a trucking terminal or factory site now.

On 3/19/2011 1:23 PM, Don L. Leistikow wrote:
> Gary and list:  Everything is wrong about the picture, with the
> exception that it is an NSL photo.
> The location is wrong.  This photo is of cars on the ready tracks, on
> the east side of the downtown Terminal, looking north.  The Schroeder
> Hotel is on the left and the Royal Hotel is on the right.  As a winter
> scene, my guess is that this photo was taken during the last week of
> service or even, the last day, January 21, 1963.
>
> The Harrison Shops were at the foot of 5th at Harrison street,on
> Milwaukee's southside.   This was a large complex, fully acquipped for
> inspections and major overhauls.  A large storage yard and a minor
> enclosed passenger station shelter, were located there.
>
> Don L.


-- 

Gary Schnabl
Southwest Detroit, two miles NORTH! of Canada--Windsor, that is...

Technical Editor forum <http://TechnicalEditor.LivernoisYard.com/phpBB3/>





From yance at oldmilwaukee.net  Sat Mar 19 13:53:42 2011
From: yance at oldmilwaukee.net (Y Marti)
Date: Sat, 19 Mar 2011 13:53:42 -0400
Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: 9th street
In-Reply-To: <5383-4D84DCB9-3651@storefull-3171.bay.webtv.net>
References: <5383-4D84DCB9-3651@storefull-3171.bay.webtv.net>
Message-ID: <20110319135342.927057cczqecno0s@horde.oldmilwaukee.net>

If anything the retro Milwaukee photo is no earlier than 1961. The  
public museum didn't have the groundbreaking until late 1960 and the  
state office building didn't have a groundbreaking until late 1961.  
Bother were finished in 1963.

If you were referring to the photo I posted of the yard area, I  
mentioned that that was from the late 40's. Most likely 1948 - no  
later than February 1949 when the Dresden and Vincent Flats at the  
southeast corner of 5th & Michigan were torn down.

> Referring back to the Retro photo:
> http://www.retrocom.com/retromilw/Mke-Downtown50s.jpg
> What was the large building at the SW corner of 10th and Clybourn
> (ending at Hibernia)?

That was the former Abel & Bach Trunk Factory building.

Yance M.

Quoting "Don L. Leistikow" <DLeistikow at webtv.net>:

> Gary:   Looking again at the Retro Milwaukee 1950's photo, ..  is
> somewhat difficult as the location of the then GE bulding is way over at
> the right side of this photo.
>
> I can see and identify Wells, Wisconsin, Michigan and Clybourn streets.
> Also evident, for our purposes are the Royal Hotel at 5th and Michigan,
> the MILW Trainshed, The North Shore Terminal and the intersection of
> 6th, Clybourn,and St.Paul streets.
>
> The Court of Honor (the boulevard on Wisconsin Avenue) is clearly shown
> thus identifying 8th, 9th, 10th, 11th and 12th streets.  Sliding over to
> the far right is somewhat obscured and fuzzy.  That could be a problem
> with my 'webber' and its limits.  However, it does appear that the east
> end of the then GE property is somewhat cleared.  A rather small black
> spot, could be the remaining entrance to the Subway.
>
> As for the 1963 photo, I have trouble with that date.  It looks like the
> RTL ramp up to 8th street, is still there.  As I was employed there (GE)
> in 1951, right after Speedrail shut down, that ramp was torn down.
> Furthermore, there was a very tall Line Pole, from the ground up to way
> over the track level.  There was a STOP board at the crossing, in both
> directions.
>
> There hung that STOP board, way up in the air, untouchable.  One day I
> came out and the very tall line pole... was down and cut in half...and
> that sign? ...... Intact !  That sign is now in my basement.  So, what
> I'm saying is, the yard was cleared in the late 1951-1952 era.
>
>
> Furthermore, this photo is older than 1963.  Look at the railroad cars
> at the bottom of the photo.  The tracks and Fowler Street LCL yard is
> apparently still there.  As I recall, that operation was ended when the
> railroads dumped the LCL traffic.  (LCL meaning Less than Car Load) as I
> had posted earlier.  The land was cleared, as I recall  That space
> became the site of the new, combined MILW and C&NW Passenger Station in
> 1965.
>
> As for a new buiding on Clybourn in the 700 block.... ??????     I doubt
> it.  What that is, I don't know.
>
> Don L .
>
>
>




From x779 at webtv.net  Sat Mar 19 13:59:37 2011
From: x779 at webtv.net (Louis Rugani)
Date: Sat, 19 Mar 2011 17:59:37 GMT
Subject: [milwaukee-electric] 1949: National City Lines conspirators are convicted.
Message-ID: <SNT113-DS14314B44CE9BC82AA6DB1698B30@phx.gbl>

On this day in 1949: National City Lines conspirators are convicted.

Location: United States Federal Court

Following a nearly two-year court process, on March 19th, 1949 nine American corporations and seven individuals were  convicted under federal charges of one count each of conspiring to monopolize part of American trade and commerce: National City Lines (and E. Roy Fitzgerald & Foster C. Beamsley) American City Lines, Pacific City Lines, General Motors (and H.C. Grossman)Standard Oil of California (and Henry C. Judd), Federal Engineering Corporation, Phillips Petroleum Corporation (and A.M. Hughes & Frank B. Stradley), Firestone Tire and Rubber Company (and L.R. Jackson), and Mack (Truck) Mfg.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"If you don't do politics, politics will do you." 
- French proverb
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

=Lou=

~~~~~~~~~~ **-=\/=-** ~~~~~~~~~~

The opposite of bravery is not cowardice, but conformity.       Robert Anthony




From gSchnabl at SWDetroit.com  Sat Mar 19 14:11:36 2011
From: gSchnabl at SWDetroit.com (Gary Schnabl)
Date: Sat, 19 Mar 2011 14:11:36 -0400
Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: 9th street
In-Reply-To: <20110319135342.927057cczqecno0s@horde.oldmilwaukee.net>
References: <5383-4D84DCB9-3651@storefull-3171.bay.webtv.net> <20110319135342.927057cczqecno0s@horde.oldmilwaukee.net>
Message-ID: <4D84F1D8.8030807@SWDetroit.com>

On 3/19/2011 1:53 PM, Y Marti wrote:
> If anything the retro Milwaukee photo is no earlier than 1961. The
> public museum didn't have the groundbreaking until late 1960 and the
> state office building didn't have a groundbreaking until late 1961.
> Bother were finished in 1963.
>
> If you were referring to the photo I posted of the yard area, I
> mentioned that that was from the late 40's. Most likely 1948 - no
> later than February 1949 when the Dresden and Vincent Flats at the
> southeast corner of 5th&  Michigan were torn down.
>
>> Referring back to the Retro photo:
>> http://www.retrocom.com/retromilw/Mke-Downtown50s.jpg
>> What was the large building at the SW corner of 10th and Clybourn
>> (ending at Hibernia)?
> That was the former Abel&  Bach Trunk Factory building.
>
> Yance M.
That was what I thought, when I mentioned that Don might have mixed up 
the north vs south side of that building in his description of it. No 
big deal, but I am glad that it is now cleared up.

If I had owned A&B, I would not relocate just to satisfy the transit 
line's wish for a subway that they could not afford to build anyway, 
knowing that "my" business was a profitable going concern and all, 
making payroll and little things like that... As far as A&B was 
concerned, the rapid transit was just another "expressway," seeking to 
take their land and livelihood.

Mi dos centavos...

-- 

Gary Schnabl
Southwest Detroit, two miles NORTH! of Canada--Windsor, that is...

Technical Editor forum <http://TechnicalEditor.LivernoisYard.com/phpBB3/>





From x779 at webtv.net  Sat Mar 19 14:26:45 2011
From: x779 at webtv.net (Louis Rugani)
Date: Sat, 19 Mar 2011 18:26:45 GMT
Subject: [milwaukee-electric] On this day in 1945: Interurban abandonments blamed on bus losses.
Message-ID: <SNT113-DS418DEAF54CED974A0534C98B30@phx.gbl>

1945: Bus Line Losses Cited as Factor in Traction Deals. 

MILWAUKEE - Lawrence F. Seybold, vice president of the Electric company and the Transport company, testified in circuit court today that the firms went into a program of interurban abandonment because the lines experienced their worst losses in history between 1937 and 1943.
Seybold was a defense witness in the $1,500,000 damage suit brought by E. M. Goodman to recover alleged losses to stockholders.
In the thirty-ninth day of the suit, Seybold said that the Racine city traction system was sold because it had an aggregate net deficit of $216,589 from the beginning of 1932 through 1939, during which time that system earned only 40 per cent of the required depreciation.
The Kenosha city system was sold because it had a deficit aggregating $39,399 through 1941, Seybold testified. 

Links:  

Kenosha Streetcar Society:
http://www.KenoshaStreetcarSociety.org 
Kenosha Streetcars:
http://www.onelist.com/group/KenoshaStreetcars
Wisconsin Railroading:
www.onelist.com/group/WisconsinRailroading
East Troy Line:
www.onelist.com/group/EastTroyLine 

=Lou=

~~~~~~~~~~ **-=\/=-** ~~~~~~~~~~

The opposite of bravery is not cowardice, but conformity.       Robert Anthony




From gSchnabl at SWDetroit.com  Sat Mar 19 14:31:41 2011
From: gSchnabl at SWDetroit.com (Gary Schnabl)
Date: Sat, 19 Mar 2011 14:31:41 -0400
Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: 1949: National City Lines conspirators are
 convicted.
In-Reply-To: <SNT113-DS14314B44CE9BC82AA6DB1698B30@phx.gbl>
References: <SNT113-DS14314B44CE9BC82AA6DB1698B30@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <4D84F68D.7090809@SWDetroit.com>

On 3/19/2011 1:59 PM, Louis Rugani wrote:
> On this day in 1949: National City Lines conspirators are convicted.
>
> Location: United States Federal Court
>
> Following a nearly two-year court process, on March 19th, 1949 nine American corporations and seven individuals were  convicted under federal charges of one count each of conspiring to monopolize part of American trade and commerce: National City Lines (and E. Roy Fitzgerald&  Foster C. Beamsley) American City Lines, Pacific City Lines, General Motors (and H.C. Grossman)Standard Oil of California (and Henry C. Judd), Federal Engineering Corporation, Phillips Petroleum Corporation (and A.M. Hughes&  Frank B. Stradley), Firestone Tire and Rubber Company (and L.R. Jackson), and Mack (Truck) Mfg.

Are there those still blaming GM et al. for the demise of traction? 
[BTW, although GM's HQ is but five miles east from here, I have no love 
for the company and wish it to ultimately fail due to its obaminations.] 
But, come on! How serious could the conspiracy have been if the penalty 
meted out was $5000, plus $1 for every convicted person?

Traction was doomed to failure as their cities became suburbanized. 
Traction may be cheaper to run, but their capital construction costs are 
very high per mile. Buses are not serial, meaning that if a bus breaks 
down enroute, the system does not. And buses can easily be rerouted in 
case a major (or minor) fire or traffic situation ties up the ROW for 
hours or days. There can be no real denying that. Plus, most or all of 
those traction systems were broke--or getting there.

Time to let it go.
-- 

Gary Schnabl
Southwest Detroit, two miles NORTH! of Canada--Windsor, that is...

Technical Editor forum <http://TechnicalEditor.LivernoisYard.com/phpBB3/>





From gSchnabl at SWDetroit.com  Sat Mar 19 14:52:09 2011
From: gSchnabl at SWDetroit.com (Gary Schnabl)
Date: Sat, 19 Mar 2011 14:52:09 -0400
Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: 9th street
In-Reply-To: <20110319143811.113462rzx849tbk8@horde.oldmilwaukee.net>
References: <5383-4D84DCB9-3651@storefull-3171.bay.webtv.net> <20110319135342.927057cczqecno0s@horde.oldmilwaukee.net> <4D84F1D8.8030807@SWDetroit.com> <20110319143811.113462rzx849tbk8@horde.oldmilwaukee.net>
Message-ID: <4D84FB59.5050106@SWDetroit.com>

On 3/19/2011 2:38 PM, Y Marti wrote:
> Gary,
>
> Abel & Bach did downsize by the 1950s and by then had sold off the 
> building you mentioned. They were a big company in the earlier part of 
> the century and had a big factory stretching to St. Paul and also east 
> of 10th Street. The main office was on St. Paul. With the Stock Market 
> Crash they had to sell to Stearns but still kept manufacturing there 
> through the 1950s.
>
> Yance M.
What year was the building razed? Did it just stand there unoccupied for 
a decade or so?

There are hundreds (thousands?) of abandoned factory buildings here 
standing in metro Detroit that have been essentially unoccupied for a 
half century or longer, as the region suburbanized and the newer 
buildings were built on unused semirural land. Some became warehouses, 
but most of them are unused wrecks that have been literally ruined by 
thousands of "scrappers" who steal just about anything of value. Ditto 
for tens of thousands of Detroit houses when their owners are working or 
on vacation or simply abandoned. One scrapper a year ago was found face 
down in an abandoned post-office building next to a deserted railroad 
depot, frozen like a popsicle in ice at the bottom of an elevator shaft.

http://detnews.com/article/20090129/METRO08/901290400/Life-goes-on-around-body-found-frozen-in-vacant-Detroit-warehouse
http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://blog.mlive.com/svengustafson/2009/04/large_20090408-ap-detroit-michigan-central-depot-train-station.jpg&imgrefurl=http://blog.mlive.com/svengustafson/2009/04/in_demanding_michigan_central_depot_demolition_detroit_council_gets_it_right.html&h=300&w=453&sz=42&tbnid=ZoePnqFgB85OtM:&tbnh=84&tbnw=127&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dmichigan%2Bcentral%2Bdepot%2Bdetroit&zoom=1&q=michigan+central+depot+detroit&usg=__F99inP_uFdSZR_gUoJOC6RaX0Mc=&sa=X&ei=gPqETfycLomatwfa2NTdBA&ved=0CDwQ9QEwBA

Gary


-- 

Gary Schnabl
Southwest Detroit, two miles NORTH! of Canada--Windsor, that is...

Technical Editor forum <http://TechnicalEditor.LivernoisYard.com/phpBB3/>





From x779 at webtv.net  Sat Mar 19 15:12:59 2011
From: x779 at webtv.net (Louis Rugani)
Date: Sat, 19 Mar 2011 19:12:59 GMT
Subject: [milwaukee-electric] National City Lines convictions.
Message-ID: <SNT113-DS242050886F37EFB9FD36FB98B30@phx.gbl>

Gary Schnabl writes:

"Are there those still blaming GM et al. for the demise of traction?  ... But, come on! How serious could the conspiracy have been if the penalty meted out was $5000, plus $1 for every convicted person?"

I stated facts. Those convictions followed lengthy court battles.  The tiny fines show the depth of the conspiracy. GM spent years and millions trying to overturn those convictions and its $5,000 fine. That tells me a lot.

"Traction was doomed to failure as their cities became suburbanized."

Traction is back and getting bigger each year. 

And nothing personal, Mr. Schnabl, but your following arguments below are fallacious and right out of the current anti-railers' songbook as sung by Randal OToole, Wendell Cox and Tom Rubin:

"Traction may be cheaper to run, but their capital construction costs are very high per mile. Buses are not serial, meaning that if a bus breaks down enroute, the system does not. And buses can easily be rerouted in 
case a major (or minor) fire or traffic situation ties up the ROW for hours or days. There can be no real denying that. Plus, most or all of those traction systems were broke--or getting there. Time to let it go."

Traction advocates, such as those who populate this list, will never "let it go", lest it happen again. 

=Lou=

~~~~~~~~~~ **-=\/=-** ~~~~~~~~~~

The opposite of bravery is not cowardice, but conformity.       Robert Anthony


-----Original Message-----
From: Gary Schnabl
Sent: Saturday, March 19, 2011 1:31 PM
To: milwaukee-electric at lists.dementia.org
Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: 1949: National City Lines conspirators are convicted.

On 3/19/2011 1:59 PM, Louis Rugani wrote:
> On this day in 1949: National City Lines conspirators are convicted.
>
> Location: United States Federal Court
>
> Following a nearly two-year court process, on March 19th, 1949 nine American corporations and seven individuals were  convicted under federal charges of one count each of conspiring to monopolize part of American trade and commerce: National City Lines (and E. Roy Fitzgerald&  Foster C. Beamsley) American City Lines, Pacific City Lines, General Motors (and H.C. Grossman)Standard Oil of California (and Henry C. Judd), Federal Engineering Corporation, Phillips Petroleum Corporation (and A.M. Hughes&  Frank B. Stradley), Firestone Tire and Rubber Company (and L.R. Jackson), and Mack (Truck) Mfg.

Are there those still blaming GM et al. for the demise of traction? 
[BTW, although GM's HQ is but five miles east from here, I have no love 
for the company and wish it to ultimately fail due to its obaminations.] 
But, come on! How serious could the conspiracy have been if the penalty 
meted out was $5000, plus $1 for every convicted person?

Traction was doomed to failure as their cities became suburbanized. 
Traction may be cheaper to run, but their capital construction costs are 
very high per mile. Buses are not serial, meaning that if a bus breaks 
down enroute, the system does not. And buses can easily be rerouted in 
case a major (or minor) fire or traffic situation ties up the ROW for 
hours or days. There can be no real denying that. Plus, most or all of 
those traction systems were broke--or getting there.

Time to let it go.
-- 

Gary Schnabl
Southwest Detroit, two miles NORTH! of Canada--Windsor, that is...

Technical Editor forum <http://TechnicalEditor.LivernoisYard.com/phpBB3/>








From gSchnabl at SWDetroit.com  Sat Mar 19 16:21:12 2011
From: gSchnabl at SWDetroit.com (Gary Schnabl)
Date: Sat, 19 Mar 2011 16:21:12 -0400
Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: National City Lines convictions.
In-Reply-To: <SNT113-DS242050886F37EFB9FD36FB98B30@phx.gbl>
References: <SNT113-DS242050886F37EFB9FD36FB98B30@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <4D851038.3030607@SWDetroit.com>

Detroit's traction fans here are trying to get two systems up and 
running: (1) a commuter-rail operation between Detroit's New Center (3 
miles north of Downtown) to/from Ann Arbor, using a mix of Amtrak-owned, 
Norfolk and Southern, and Canadian National preexisting tracks and (2) a 
3.4-mile streetcar up/down Woodward Avenue, considered to be its main 
drag--once upon a time.
For the commuter line, SEMCOG--a sort of think tank run by various 
community governments--back around 2005 came up with a 1-way per 
passenger operating cost of $146 per passenger. Just what amount of 
taxpayer subsidy might that entail?  Perhaps, $140 per passenger, 
one-way? That is just to cover operating costs--no capital cost or debt 
service.

Well, no doubt that proposal has been dying many deaths, but like cats, 
seem never to finally die. It is currently on yet another hold the past 
couple years--until somebody finds some money trees or something. Not 
even the Obamists bothered to lavish any stimuli loot upon it.

The streetcar plan is now close to an EIS phase. Fifty or so people will 
show up at a public meeting, and that is considered to be a big success, 
or at least so says the newspaper which is supportive. But the same 50 
LRT proponents always will show up at those sessions. BRT (or the status 
quo--do nothing) makes more sense, and isn't that pretty much the way 
Milwaukee will go instead of LRT? Three BRT lines: Greenfield, National, 
and Fondulac, if my memory holds?

Detroit's DDOT bus system is bleeding cash, and a recent national study 
showed that its operation was probably the most expensive in the nation 
per bus for drivers' and mechanics' salaries (much, much higher than 
average)--and also the poorest run at the same time. That is what 
happens after the spendthrift public sector tries to run a bus system. 
Detroit's transit is bleeding $ millions annually, even while cutting 
back service and dumping entire routes the past decade due to lousy 
ridership (although the DDOT proponents always say otherwise...), and 
now DDOT wants rail (err... streetcars) on top of all their nonsense!?

BTW, GM did not conspire to put Milwaukee's streetcars or trackless 
trolleys out of business. Milwaukee's locals decided to do that--all by 
themselves.


On 3/19/2011 3:12 PM, Louis Rugani wrote:
> Gary Schnabl writes:
>
> "Are there those still blaming GM et al. for the demise of traction?  ... But, come on! How serious could the conspiracy have been if the penalty meted out was $5000, plus $1 for every convicted person?"
>
> I stated facts. Those convictions followed lengthy court battles.  The tiny fines show the depth of the conspiracy. GM spent years and millions trying to overturn those convictions and its $5,000 fine. That tells me a lot.
>
> "Traction was doomed to failure as their cities became suburbanized."
>
> Traction is back and getting bigger each year.
>
> And nothing personal, Mr. Schnabl, but your following arguments below are fallacious and right out of the current anti-railers' songbook as sung by Randal OToole, Wendell Cox and Tom Rubin:
>
> "Traction may be cheaper to run, but their capital construction costs are very high per mile. Buses are not serial, meaning that if a bus breaks down enroute, the system does not. And buses can easily be rerouted in
> case a major (or minor) fire or traffic situation ties up the ROW for hours or days. There can be no real denying that. Plus, most or all of those traction systems were broke--or getting there. Time to let it go."
>
> Traction advocates, such as those who populate this list, will never "let it go", lest it happen again.
>
> =Lou=


-- 

Gary Schnabl
Southwest Detroit, two miles NORTH! of Canada--Windsor, that is...

Technical Editor forum <http://TechnicalEditor.LivernoisYard.com/phpBB3/>





From DLeistikow at webtv.net  Sat Mar 19 17:25:12 2011
From: DLeistikow at webtv.net (Don L. Leistikow)
Date: Sat, 19 Mar 2011 16:25:12 -0500
Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: 1949: National City Lines
	conspirators are convicted.
In-Reply-To: Gary Schnabl <gSchnabl@SWDetroit.com>'s message of Sat, 19 Mar
	2011 14:31:41 -0400
Message-ID: <17028-4D851F38-3840@storefull-3173.bay.webtv.net>

An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed...
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From yance at oldmilwaukee.net  Sat Mar 19 11:08:31 2011
From: yance at oldmilwaukee.net (Y Marti)
Date: Sat, 19 Mar 2011 11:08:31 -0400
Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: Harrison Street station NSL
In-Reply-To: <0LIB00JY65WVUXJ1@vms173005.mailsrvcs.net>
References: <824121.28502.qm@web120703.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
 <4D849E2C.1020302@SWDetroit.com> <0LIB00JY65WVUXJ1@vms173005.mailsrvcs.net>
Message-ID: <20110319110831.19154jjh7db7ke0w@horde.oldmilwaukee.net>

I have uploaded another view of the yards here:
http://oldmilwaukee.net/forum/download/Milwaukee153.jpg

Yance M.

Quoting Don Ross <don0731 at gte.net>:

> Harrison was the end of the street  running and it was a shop.  There
> was a large wooden station with a freight house.  The shop was 4
> track plus another 4 or 5 tracks outside.  Attached to the shop was a
> rotary converter.
> There is a whole section on the North Shore on my site
> <http://donsdepot.donrossgroup.net/indexcns.htm>http://donsdepot.donrossgroup.net/indexcns.htm
>
> Don
>
> At 07:14 AM 3/19/2011, you wrote:
>
>> Thanks. With the Schroeder Hotel in the background, I knew where it was.
>> But was it called the Harrison Street station? There is a Harrison
>> Street, south of Lincoln by the NSL ROW, though.
>
>
>
> -- Attached file removed by Ecartis and put at URL below --
> -- Type: application/octet-stream
> -- Size: 87k (89178 bytes)
> -- URL : http://lists.dementia.org/files/milwaukee-electric/cns172.jpg
>
>
> -- Attached file removed by Ecartis and put at URL below --
> -- Type: application/octet-stream
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> -- URL : http://lists.dementia.org/files/milwaukee-electric/cns801c.jpg
>
>
>
>




From gSchnabl at SWDetroit.com  Sat Mar 19 22:13:13 2011
From: gSchnabl at SWDetroit.com (Gary Schnabl)
Date: Sat, 19 Mar 2011 22:13:13 -0400
Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: 1949: National City Lines	conspirators
 are convicted.
In-Reply-To: <17028-4D851F38-3840@storefull-3173.bay.webtv.net>
References: <17028-4D851F38-3840@storefull-3173.bay.webtv.net>
Message-ID: <4D8562B9.7060300@SWDetroit.com>

Don et al.
Thank God for conservative governors... Liberal enclave cities like 
Madison and Milwaukee got thwarted from their high-speed-rail (HSR) 
boondoggle. Ditto for the other two states you cited. I always was more 
than satisfied with the private-sector Badger Bus, though, for traveling 
between those two cities.

  In the event you have not read it, George Will is now persona non 
grata or public enemy #1 among the passenger-rail folks after his recent 
magazine article: 
http://www.newsweek.com/2011/02/27/high-speed-to-insolvency.html .

Passenger rail was a better option when (1) there were fewer 
alternatives in the 19th and very early 20th centuries and (2) when 
cities were smaller and more compact. Its time has come and gone. 
Railroads no longer determine which cities will succeed and which will 
fail (by not having them). I am essentially a ***freight*** railroad fan 
alway, having once a chance to become a railroad engineer, but talked 
myself out of it eons ago when in my twenties. But, I get second 
thoughts every so often about that.

I don't know about your 45 states, though. Could it be that others 
believe in there also being a total of sixty US states? Obama once 
mentioned during 2008 that he had visited 57 states on his campaign 
trail, and there were only three more states yet for him to visit...

Later,
Gary


On 3/19/2011 5:25 PM, Don L. Leistikow wrote:
> Gary S and list;   You're missing all of the auguements for; electric
> rail transit.
> It is not true, that rail transit is more expensive....  Edson L.
> Tennyson, an emminant Transit Professional Engineer, declares that
> (breifly listed here) constrictopm may be more expensive but, the
> 'plant', once built, will last at least twice as long, or more, without
> any major rebuilding.  Routine ispecton and maintainance is all that s
> required.
>
> You don't get that with Freeways, nor Tollways.  Back in the '90's, we
> learned taht I 94 requires a new surface every 8 to 12 years, average
> 10.  The cost at that time was; one milion dollars... PER MILE.
>
> Of course, it is even more expensive, today.
>
> Wake up, America, 45 States already have.   The remaining 3 contiguous
> States are still asleep. (Florida. Ohio and Wisconsin)......
>
> There is nothing Free, about the Freeway
>
> Don L. Leistikow... New Berlin, Wisconsin


-- 

Gary Schnabl
Southwest Detroit, two miles NORTH! of Canada--Windsor, that is...

Technical Editor forum <http://TechnicalEditor.LivernoisYard.com/phpBB3/>





From gSchnabl at SWDetroit.com  Sat Mar 19 22:27:43 2011
From: gSchnabl at SWDetroit.com (Gary Schnabl)
Date: Sat, 19 Mar 2011 22:27:43 -0400
Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: Harrison Street station NSL
In-Reply-To: <20110319110831.19154jjh7db7ke0w@horde.oldmilwaukee.net>
References: <824121.28502.qm@web120703.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <4D849E2C.1020302@SWDetroit.com> <0LIB00JY65WVUXJ1@vms173005.mailsrvcs.net> <20110319110831.19154jjh7db7ke0w@horde.oldmilwaukee.net>
Message-ID: <4D85661F.8080908@SWDetroit.com>

So, those houses would then be on the northern side of Harrison? And 
that track partially shown at the far left was leading to a switch to 
some facilities to the west of the ROW?

On 3/19/2011 11:08 AM, Y Marti wrote:
> I have uploaded another view of the yards here:
> http://oldmilwaukee.net/forum/download/Milwaukee153.jpg
>
> Yance M.
-- 

Gary Schnabl
Southwest Detroit, two miles NORTH! of Canada--Windsor, that is...

Technical Editor forum <http://TechnicalEditor.LivernoisYard.com/phpBB3/>





From lallan45 at gmail.com  Sat Mar 19 22:35:55 2011
From: lallan45 at gmail.com (Larry Allan)
Date: Sat, 19 Mar 2011 21:35:55 -0500
Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: 9th street
In-Reply-To: <4D84FB59.5050106@SWDetroit.com>
References: <5383-4D84DCB9-3651@storefull-3171.bay.webtv.net>
	<20110319135342.927057cczqecno0s@horde.oldmilwaukee.net>
	<4D84F1D8.8030807@SWDetroit.com>
	<20110319143811.113462rzx849tbk8@horde.oldmilwaukee.net>
	<4D84FB59.5050106@SWDetroit.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTi=3EdykDJBU2Xk=Z9PO0i5WrNwEQUdUJ194qXff@mail.gmail.com>

I would assume that if the Subway was completed and the wooden ramp was
removed, that the Steel Structure ( T-6, T-7) would have been extended East
to the 8th Street Viaduct. The tracks would then extend east and curve north
to connect to the old ROW. These tracks would now allow for freight from the
north and south divisions of the Line. See attached diagram.

>
>
>
>



-- Attached file removed by Ecartis and put at URL below --
-- Type: image/jpeg
-- Size: 127k (130459 bytes)
-- URL : http://lists.dementia.org/files/milwaukee-electric/02-TMdiagram1%20(2).jpg




From sunrise at bikethehoan.com  Sat Mar 19 22:59:58 2011
From: sunrise at bikethehoan.com (William Sell)
Date: Sat, 19 Mar 2011 21:59:58 -0500
Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: 9th street
In-Reply-To: <4D84E87D.8040409@SWDetroit.com>
References: <5383-4D84DCB9-3651@storefull-3171.bay.webtv.net>
 <4D84E87D.8040409@SWDetroit.com>
Message-ID: <4d856d98.0746340a.5696.6662@mx.google.com>

The large building on the SW corner of 10th and Clybourn may well be 
Milwaukee Insurance.It seems to have endured through much freeway 
construction. I can't picture the location of that building now and 
do not see it on Google Maps.  The other building, a house west and 
next to the Insurance building, was owned by Gretchen Colnick who was 
something of a radio star (WTMJ?) and had a day time program.  She 
managed to keep her house through the original freeway builds; it did 
not survive her passing.
Bill




At 12:31 PM 3/19/2011, you wrote:
>Referring back to the Retro photo:
>http://www.retrocom.com/retromilw/Mke-Downtown50s.jpg
>What was the large building at the SW corner of 10th and Clybourn
>(ending at Hibernia)?
>
>I thought that a different building might have been along the PROW alley
>between 7th and 8th. But the more I looked at it, it appears as it was
>what was left after it was razed. All of the buildings on the south side
>of Clybourn between 6th and 9th were gone.  However, some buildings on
>Hibernia between 8th and 10th are visible. The photo ends somewhere in
>the 900 block of Hibernia.
>
>The subway entrance is very obvious, being right next to the ROW. It
>appears the same as I remember it from an ancient Milwaukee Journal
>article from some 70 years ago. It seems to be openly accessible...
>
>The Blatz sign at the SE corner of 8th and Wisconsin was huge, taking up
>most of the side of that (8-story?) building, there. My parents' next
>door neighbor in Brookfield--Al Romans--owned most or all of the George
>Webb's in Milwaukee and Racine. There was one right near the corner of
>8th and Wisconsin, on the south side of Wisconsin then.
>
>I also remember seeing on a website that apparently is no longer up some
>1964 photos of the ROW, showing that nearly everything between St Paul
>and Clybourn, especially between Clybourn and Hibernia except for
>Aldrich Chemical, was taken out during the 1964 activity So, I tend to
>agree with the 1963 date that another poster suggested. I doubt if it
>were later. Its caption suggested that it was from the 1960s, but
>another blurb also suggested it might have even been in the 1950s.
>
>I am not a believer of photo captions, as that gallery of 1936 Milwaukee
>photos were loaded with bogus captions.
>
>
>Gary
>
>
>On 3/19/2011 12:41 PM, Don L. Leistikow wrote:
> > Gary:   Looking again at the Retro Milwaukee 1950's photo, ..  is
> > somewhat difficult as the location of the then GE bulding is way over at
> > the right side of this photo.
> >
> > I can see and identify Wells, Wisconsin, Michigan and Clybourn streets.
> > Also evident, for our purposes are the Royal Hotel at 5th and Michigan,
> > the MILW Trainshed, The North Shore Terminal and the intersection of
> > 6th, Clybourn,and St.Paul streets.
> >
> > The Court of Honor (the boulevard on Wisconsin Avenue) is clearly shown
> > thus identifying 8th, 9th, 10th, 11th and 12th streets.  Sliding over to
> > the far right is somewhat obscured and fuzzy.  That could be a problem
> > with my 'webber' and its limits.  However, it does appear that the east
> > end of the then GE property is somewhat cleared.  A rather small black
> > spot, could be the remaining entrance to the Subway.
> >
> > As for the 1963 photo, I have trouble with that date.  It looks like the
> > RTL ramp up to 8th street, is still there.  As I was employed there (GE)
> > in 1951, right after Speedrail shut down, that ramp was torn down.
> > Furthermore, there was a very tall Line Pole, from the ground up to way
> > over the track level.  There was a STOP board at the crossing, in both
> > directions.
> >
> > There hung that STOP board, way up in the air, untouchable.  One day I
> > came out and the very tall line pole... was down and cut in half...and
> > that sign? ...... Intact !  That sign is now in my basement.  So, what
> > I'm saying is, the yard was cleared in the late 1951-1952 era.
> >
> >
> > Furthermore, this photo is older than 1963.  Look at the railroad cars
> > at the bottom of the photo.  The tracks and Fowler Street LCL yard is
> > apparently still there.  As I recall, that operation was ended when the
> > railroads dumped the LCL traffic.  (LCL meaning Less than Car Load) as I
> > had posted earlier.  The land was cleared, as I recall  That space
> > became the site of the new, combined MILW and C&NW Passenger Station in
> > 1965.
> >
> > As for a new buiding on Clybourn in the 700 block.... ??????     I doubt
> > it.  What that is, I don't know.
> >
> > Don L .
>
>
>--
>
>Gary Schnabl
>Southwest Detroit, two miles NORTH! of Canada--Windsor, that is...
>
>Technical Editor forum <http://TechnicalEditor.LivernoisYard.com/phpBB3/>

**********************************
"So much has been destroyed, I have cast my lot with those who, age 
after age, perversely, with no extraordinary power, reconstitute the 
world." -- Adrienne Rich  



From don0731 at gte.net  Sat Mar 19 23:05:33 2011
From: don0731 at gte.net (Don Ross)
Date: Sat, 19 Mar 2011 22:05:33 -0500
Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: Harrison Street station NSL
In-Reply-To: <4D85661F.8080908@SWDetroit.com>
References: <824121.28502.qm@web120703.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
 <4D849E2C.1020302@SWDetroit.com> <0LIB00JY65WVUXJ1@vms173005.mailsrvcs.net>
 <20110319110831.19154jjh7db7ke0w@horde.oldmilwaukee.net>
 <4D85661F.8080908@SWDetroit.com>
Message-ID: <0LIC00IWX5VYM072@vms173019.mailsrvcs.net>

I thought I had explained the area.  Harrison Street was the end of 
the street.  North of the area was residential.  Then we had private 
trackage from South.  On the East Side of the main line was the 
rotary convertor, shops, storage tracks, and the truck trailler 
tracks.  West of the main line was the station.  It was a 2 story 
building on the south end of the building and on the north side was 
the MD depot.  Besides the track than along the station, a second 
track served as a unloading area.
The station itself was also used as a waiting room.  I don't remember 
if there was an agent there or if they just used collectors on the cars.
Don

At 09:27 PM 3/19/2011, you wrote:
>So, those houses would then be on the northern side of Harrison? And
>that track partially shown at the far left was leading to a switch to
>some facilities to the west of the ROW?




From gSchnabl at SWDetroit.com  Sat Mar 19 23:19:44 2011
From: gSchnabl at SWDetroit.com (Gary Schnabl)
Date: Sat, 19 Mar 2011 23:19:44 -0400
Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: 9th street
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTi=3EdykDJBU2Xk=Z9PO0i5WrNwEQUdUJ194qXff@mail.gmail.com>
References: <5383-4D84DCB9-3651@storefull-3171.bay.webtv.net>	<20110319135342.927057cczqecno0s@horde.oldmilwaukee.net>	<4D84F1D8.8030807@SWDetroit.com>	<20110319143811.113462rzx849tbk8@horde.oldmilwaukee.net>	<4D84FB59.5050106@SWDetroit.com> <AANLkTi=3EdykDJBU2Xk=Z9PO0i5WrNwEQUdUJ194qXff@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4D857250.3060105@SWDetroit.com>

Couldn't the ramp remain and the eastern block (700s) and former ROW be 
used for extra storage or what not? LCL public-access team tracks in the 
700 block for freight?
Team tracks were very plentiful near here, as Detroit once had about 100 
freight yards. Some of their concrete platforms still exist--far from 
any tracks today.
http://www.michiganrailroads.com/RRHX/Stations/CountyStations/WayneStations/WayneCountyMenu.htm

I commandeered for my own use the URLs --LivernoisYard.com and 
LivernoisYards.com--for two of my mostly dormant registered domains, 
seeing that I reside within Livernois Yard/Junction Yard. The railroads 
came close to using eminent domain over a decade ago in order to acquire 
our one-block dead-end street until the Michigan Supreme Court removed 
eminent-domain powers from any private-sector taking.

The original plan was to build at Livernois Yard a huge intermodal 
facility--the DIFT, Detroit Intermodal Freight Terminal--but the 
financial reasons for employing option #1, the mass taking of mucho land 
and homes and businesses, withered with Detroit's sick economy. Option 
#4--the do-nothing status quo option--was employed by the CSX and the 
Norfolk Southern railroads. CSX spent big bucks and built their own 
intermodal freight terminal a few hundred feet away on their own 
original land. And the Norfolk Southern--who got the bigger chunk of 
Conrail (60%?)--is still rationalizing its operations and is trying to 
sell off its entire Michigan facilities.

It's actually quite quiet around here, considering that the-once state's 
largest freight yard is located right next door... Every so often a 
container is dropped noisily or a whistle blows at the only two grade 
crossings anywhere near here--on Central or Lonyo Streets. I can set my 
clocks by the whistles of the six daily Amtrak runs. Everything else was 
built above grade.



Gary


On 3/19/2011 10:35 PM, Larry Allan wrote:
> I would assume that if the Subway was completed and the wooden ramp was
> removed, that the Steel Structure ( T-6, T-7) would have been extended East
> to the 8th Street Viaduct. The tracks would then extend east and curve north
> to connect to the old ROW. These tracks would now allow for freight from the
> north and south divisions of the Line. See attached diagram.
-- 

Gary Schnabl
Southwest Detroit, two miles NORTH! of Canada--Windsor, that is...

Technical Editor forum <http://TechnicalEditor.LivernoisYard.com/phpBB3/>





From gSchnabl at SWDetroit.com  Sat Mar 19 23:50:26 2011
From: gSchnabl at SWDetroit.com (Gary Schnabl)
Date: Sat, 19 Mar 2011 23:50:26 -0400
Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: 9th street
In-Reply-To: <4d856d98.0746340a.5696.6662@mx.google.com>
References: <5383-4D84DCB9-3651@storefull-3171.bay.webtv.net> <4D84E87D.8040409@SWDetroit.com> <4d856d98.0746340a.5696.6662@mx.google.com>
Message-ID: <4D857982.1090008@SWDetroit.com>

I remember Gretchen. Was she the one with "The Other 98" TV 
program--referring to the 98% of Milwaukee kids who were not 
JDs--juvenile delinquents--during the 1950s? That would be a tough sell 
today--only 2% JDs in Milwaukee.


On 3/19/2011 10:59 PM, William Sell wrote:
> The large building on the SW corner of 10th and Clybourn may well be
> Milwaukee Insurance.It seems to have endured through much freeway
> construction. I can't picture the location of that building now and
> do not see it on Google Maps.  The other building, a house west and
> next to the Insurance building, was owned by Gretchen Colnick who was
> something of a radio star (WTMJ?) and had a day time program.  She
> managed to keep her house through the original freeway builds; it did
> not survive her passing.
> Bill
-- 

Gary Schnabl
Southwest Detroit, two miles NORTH! of Canada--Windsor, that is...

Technical Editor forum <http://TechnicalEditor.LivernoisYard.com/phpBB3/>





From gSchnabl at SWDetroit.com  Sun Mar 20 00:03:22 2011
From: gSchnabl at SWDetroit.com (Gary Schnabl)
Date: Sun, 20 Mar 2011 00:03:22 -0400
Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: Harrison Street station NSL
In-Reply-To: <0LIC00IWX5VYM072@vms173019.mailsrvcs.net>
References: <824121.28502.qm@web120703.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <4D849E2C.1020302@SWDetroit.com> <0LIB00JY65WVUXJ1@vms173005.mailsrvcs.net> <20110319110831.19154jjh7db7ke0w@horde.oldmilwaukee.net> <4D85661F.8080908@SWDetroit.com> <0LIC00IWX5VYM072@vms173019.mailsrvcs.net>
Message-ID: <4D857C8A.3080603@SWDetroit.com>

Concerning the rotary converters... Assuming that streetcars ran on 600V 
and the interurbans ran on, say, 1200V, how did the two types of coaches 
coexist on 1200V lines? Did the streetcars use a dropping resistor on 
1200V lines, or did the interurbans run, albeit slower, on 600V for the 
1/2 mile of trackage leading to/from the PSB to Hibernia. Seeing that 
human operators were usually employed to synchronize the converters at 
substations, did the interurbans ever convert to unmanned mercury-vapor 
rectifier setups at their substations?

On 3/19/2011 11:05 PM, Don Ross wrote:
> I thought I had explained the area.  Harrison Street was the end of
> the street.  North of the area was residential.  Then we had private
> trackage from South.  On the East Side of the main line was the
> rotary convertor, shops, storage tracks, and the truck trailler
> tracks.  West of the main line was the station.  It was a 2 story
> building on the south end of the building and on the north side was
> the MD depot.  Besides the track than along the station, a second
> track served as a unloading area.
> The station itself was also used as a waiting room.  I don't remember
> if there was an agent there or if they just used collectors on the cars.
> Don

-- 

Gary Schnabl
Southwest Detroit, two miles NORTH! of Canada--Windsor, that is...

Technical Editor forum <http://TechnicalEditor.LivernoisYard.com/phpBB3/>





From don0731 at gte.net  Sun Mar 20 00:22:41 2011
From: don0731 at gte.net (Don Ross)
Date: Sat, 19 Mar 2011 23:22:41 -0500
Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: Harrison Street station NSL
In-Reply-To: <4D857C8A.3080603@SWDetroit.com>
References: <824121.28502.qm@web120703.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
 <4D849E2C.1020302@SWDetroit.com> <0LIB00JY65WVUXJ1@vms173005.mailsrvcs.net>
 <20110319110831.19154jjh7db7ke0w@horde.oldmilwaukee.net>
 <4D85661F.8080908@SWDetroit.com> <0LIC00IWX5VYM072@vms173019.mailsrvcs.net>
 <4D857C8A.3080603@SWDetroit.com>
Message-ID: <0LIC006I19GI2P00@vms173009.mailsrvcs.net>

All on 600V.  No 1200 on the North Shore.  The TM had 1200 for a 
short time but they gave up the 1200 also.  South Shore is 1200.  No 
problem in crossing between TM, North Shore, and South Shore.  No crossings.
I don't know how the TM did the switch when they still had 1200.  I 
think they just ran slow when they ran on 600 wire.
Don (the younger)

At 11:03 PM 3/19/2011, you wrote:
>Concerning the rotary converters... Assuming that streetcars ran on 600V
>and the interurbans ran on, say, 1200V, how did the two types of coaches
>coexist on 1200V lines? Did the streetcars use a dropping resistor on
>1200V lines, or did the interurbans run, albeit slower, on 600V for the
>1/2 mile of trackage leading to/from the PSB to Hibernia. Seeing that
>human operators were usually employed to synchronize the converters at
>substations, did the interurbans ever convert to unmanned mercury-vapor
>rectifier setups at their substations?
>
>On 3/19/2011 11:05 PM, Don Ross wrote:
> > I thought I had explained the area.  Harrison Street was the end of
> > the street.  North of the area was residential.  Then we had private
> > trackage from South.  On the East Side of the main line was the
> > rotary convertor, shops, storage tracks, and the truck trailler
> > tracks.  West of the main line was the station.  It was a 2 story
> > building on the south end of the building and on the north side was
> > the MD depot.  Besides the track than along the station, a second
> > track served as a unloading area.
> > The station itself was also used as a waiting room.  I don't remember
> > if there was an agent there or if they just used collectors on the cars.
> > Don




From sunrise at bikethehoan.com  Sun Mar 20 00:37:24 2011
From: sunrise at bikethehoan.com (William Sell)
Date: Sat, 19 Mar 2011 23:37:24 -0500
Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: National City Lines convictions.
In-Reply-To: <SNT113-DS242050886F37EFB9FD36FB98B30@phx.gbl>
References: <SNT113-DS242050886F37EFB9FD36FB98B30@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <4d85846e.1d32dc0a.7802.6acb@mx.google.com>

I don't want a tit for tat rail argument here. I have no admiration 
for Randal O'Toole's "facts" and his schilling for the oil industry, 
but I will refer anyone interested to a book written by two very 
conservative contemporaries: Paul Weyrich and William Lind, "Moving 
Minds" - it is an appeal to fact for the benefit of fellow 
conservatives to get on board and support rail. I will let Lind and 
Weyrich speak to the issue.

I am, however, somewhat versed and would not mind an exchange of 
views with anyone on this issue. But let's take it off this listserve 
as a courtesy to the rest of the readers here.  At all times, anyone 
can get in touch with me to find out if there is a discussion they can join.

Bill Sell






At 02:12 PM 3/19/2011, Louis Rugani wrote:
>Gary Schnabl writes:
>
>"Are there those still blaming GM et al. for the demise of 
>traction?  ... But, come on! How serious could the conspiracy have 
>been if the penalty meted out was $5000, plus $1 for every convicted person?"
>
>I stated facts. Those convictions followed lengthy court 
>battles.  The tiny fines show the depth of the conspiracy. GM spent 
>years and millions trying to overturn those convictions and its 
>$5,000 fine. That tells me a lot.
>
>"Traction was doomed to failure as their cities became suburbanized."
>
>Traction is back and getting bigger each year.
>
>And nothing personal, Mr. Schnabl, but your following arguments 
>below are fallacious and right out of the current anti-railers' 
>songbook as sung by Randal OToole, Wendell Cox and Tom Rubin:
>
>"Traction may be cheaper to run, but their capital construction 
>costs are very high per mile. Buses are not serial, meaning that if 
>a bus breaks down enroute, the system does not. And buses can easily 
>be rerouted in
>case a major (or minor) fire or traffic situation ties up the ROW 
>for hours or days. There can be no real denying that. Plus, most or 
>all of those traction systems were broke--or getting there. Time to let it go."
>
>Traction advocates, such as those who populate this list, will never 
>"let it go", lest it happen again.
>
>=Lou=
>
>~~~~~~~~~~ **-=\/=-** ~~~~~~~~~~
>
>The opposite of bravery is not cowardice, but conformity.      Robert Anthony
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Gary Schnabl
>Sent: Saturday, March 19, 2011 1:31 PM
>To: milwaukee-electric at lists.dementia.org
>Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: 1949: National City Lines 
>conspirators are convicted.
>
>On 3/19/2011 1:59 PM, Louis Rugani wrote:
> > On this day in 1949: National City Lines conspirators are convicted.
> >
> > Location: United States Federal Court
> >
> > Following a nearly two-year court process, on March 19th, 1949 
> nine American corporations and seven individuals were  convicted 
> under federal charges of one count each of conspiring to monopolize 
> part of American trade and commerce: National City Lines (and E. 
> Roy Fitzgerald&  Foster C. Beamsley) American City Lines, Pacific 
> City Lines, General Motors (and H.C. Grossman)Standard Oil of 
> California (and Henry C. Judd), Federal Engineering Corporation, 
> Phillips Petroleum Corporation (and A.M. Hughes&  Frank B. 
> Stradley), Firestone Tire and Rubber Company (and L.R. Jackson), 
> and Mack (Truck) Mfg.
>
>Are there those still blaming GM et al. for the demise of traction?
>[BTW, although GM's HQ is but five miles east from here, I have no love
>for the company and wish it to ultimately fail due to its obaminations.]
>But, come on! How serious could the conspiracy have been if the penalty
>meted out was $5000, plus $1 for every convicted person?
>
>Traction was doomed to failure as their cities became suburbanized.
>Traction may be cheaper to run, but their capital construction costs are
>very high per mile. Buses are not serial, meaning that if a bus breaks
>down enroute, the system does not. And buses can easily be rerouted in
>case a major (or minor) fire or traffic situation ties up the ROW for
>hours or days. There can be no real denying that. Plus, most or all of
>those traction systems were broke--or getting there.
>
>Time to let it go.
>--
>
>Gary Schnabl
>Southwest Detroit, two miles NORTH! of Canada--Windsor, that is...
>
>Technical Editor forum <http://TechnicalEditor.LivernoisYard.com/phpBB3/>

**********************************
"So much has been destroyed, I have cast my lot with those who, age 
after age, perversely, with no extraordinary power, reconstitute the 
world." -- Adrienne Rich  



From gSchnabl at SWDetroit.com  Sun Mar 20 01:22:06 2011
From: gSchnabl at SWDetroit.com (Gary Schnabl)
Date: Sun, 20 Mar 2011 01:22:06 -0400
Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: 9th street
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTi=3EdykDJBU2Xk=Z9PO0i5WrNwEQUdUJ194qXff@mail.gmail.com>
References: <5383-4D84DCB9-3651@storefull-3171.bay.webtv.net>	<20110319135342.927057cczqecno0s@horde.oldmilwaukee.net>	<4D84F1D8.8030807@SWDetroit.com>	<20110319143811.113462rzx849tbk8@horde.oldmilwaukee.net>	<4D84FB59.5050106@SWDetroit.com> <AANLkTi=3EdykDJBU2Xk=Z9PO0i5WrNwEQUdUJ194qXff@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4D858EFE.3080703@SWDetroit.com>

That linked diagram of the proposed subway plan shows two full-slip 
switches--somewhat rare items these days--centered on T2 and T10. Were 
any of those ever installed in the tracks around 9th Street, or at any 
other interurban tracks? Such switches require high maintenance, much 
more than (also high-maintenance) fixed diamonds. West Detroit 
interlocking tower (busiest Michigan tower once upon a time) at the 
entrance of Livernois (NYC) Yard had seven full-slip switches off its 
intersecting two-track main ROWs within a few feet of each other. None 
of them exists after 2003 any longer.

Gary

On 3/19/2011 10:35 PM, Larry Allan wrote:
> I would assume that if the Subway was completed and the wooden ramp was
> removed, that the Steel Structure ( T-6, T-7) would have been extended East
> to the 8th Street Viaduct. The tracks would then extend east and curve north
> to connect to the old ROW. These tracks would now allow for freight from the
> north and south divisions of the Line. See attached diagram.
>
>
> -- Attached file removed by Ecartis and put at URL below --
> -- Type: image/jpeg
> -- Size: 127k (130459 bytes)
> -- URL : http://lists.dementia.org/files/milwaukee-electric/02-TMdiagram1%20(2).jpg


-- 

Gary Schnabl
Southwest Detroit, two miles NORTH! of Canada--Windsor, that is...

Technical Editor forum <http://TechnicalEditor.LivernoisYard.com/phpBB3/>





From sbgreig_m1 at yahoo.com  Sun Mar 20 01:28:51 2011
From: sbgreig_m1 at yahoo.com (Scott Greig)
Date: Sat, 19 Mar 2011 22:28:51 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: Harrison Street station NSL
In-Reply-To: <0LIC006I19GI2P00@vms173009.mailsrvcs.net>
Message-ID: <539658.14458.qm@web120716.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>

The two voltages were separated by a "dead zone in the wire; there was a manually-thrown changeover switch under each interurban car, operated by a lever and linkage.
--- On Sat, 3/19/11, Don Ross <don0731 at gte.net> wrote:

From: Don Ross <don0731 at gte.net>
Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: Harrison Street station NSL
To: milwaukee-electric at lists.dementia.org
Date: Saturday, March 19, 2011, 11:22 PM

All on 600V.? No 1200 on the North Shore.? The TM had 1200 for a 
short time but they gave up the 1200 also.? South Shore is 1200.? No 
problem in crossing between TM, North Shore, and South Shore.? No crossings.
I don't know how the TM did the switch when they still had 1200.? I 
think they just ran slow when they ran on 600 wire.
Don (the younger)

At 11:03 PM 3/19/2011, you wrote:
>Concerning the rotary converters... Assuming that streetcars ran on 600V
>and the interurbans ran on, say, 1200V, how did the two types of coaches
>coexist on 1200V lines? Did the streetcars use a dropping resistor on
>1200V lines, or did the interurbans run, albeit slower, on 600V for the
>1/2 mile of trackage leading to/from the PSB to Hibernia. Seeing that
>human operators were usually employed to synchronize the converters at
>substations, did the interurbans ever convert to unmanned mercury-vapor
>rectifier setups at their substations?
>
>On 3/19/2011 11:05 PM, Don Ross wrote:
> > I thought I had explained the area.? Harrison Street was the end of
> > the street.? North of the area was residential.? Then we had private
> > trackage from South.? On the East Side of the main line was the
> > rotary convertor, shops, storage tracks, and the truck trailler
> > tracks.? West of the main line was the station.? It was a 2 story
> > building on the south end of the building and on the north side was
> > the MD depot.? Besides the track than along the station, a second
> > track served as a unloading area.
> > The station itself was also used as a waiting room.? I don't remember
> > if there was an agent there or if they just used collectors on the cars.
> > Don






From don0731 at gte.net  Sun Mar 20 01:55:55 2011
From: don0731 at gte.net (Don Ross)
Date: Sun, 20 Mar 2011 00:55:55 -0500
Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: Harrison Street station NSL
In-Reply-To: <539658.14458.qm@web120716.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
References: <0LIC006I19GI2P00@vms173009.mailsrvcs.net>
 <539658.14458.qm@web120716.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <0LIC00DUYDRWOE80@vms173005.mailsrvcs.net>

I don't think that North Shore had anything other than 600.  TM 
started with 600 and then tried 3300AC on the original 1100s.  The 
changed at St Martins and Waukesha Beach.  That was changed in short 
time to 1200 and that seems to be the change at St Martins and 
Waukesha Beach.  The rebuilt 1100s in the 1920s were 600.  All that 
kind of stuff was before I was in town.  All I can remember is 
600.  Maybe the other Don can answer since he is older than me.  Hee hee.


At 12:28 AM 3/20/2011, you wrote:
>The two voltages were separated by a "dead zone in the wire; there 
>was a manually-thrown changeover switch under each interurban car, 
>operated by a lever and linkage.
>--- On Sat, 3/19/11, Don Ross <don0731 at gte.net> wrote:
>
>From: Don Ross <don0731 at gte.net>
>Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: Harrison Street station NSL
>To: milwaukee-electric at lists.dementia.org
>Date: Saturday, March 19, 2011, 11:22 PM
>
>All on 600V.  No 1200 on the North Shore.  The TM had 1200 for a
>short time but they gave up the 1200 also.  South Shore is 1200.  No
>problem in crossing between TM, North Shore, and South Shore.  No crossings.
>I don't know how the TM did the switch when they still had 1200.  I
>think they just ran slow when they ran on 600 wire.
>Don (the younger)
>
>At 11:03 PM 3/19/2011, you wrote:
> >Concerning the rotary converters... Assuming that streetcars ran on 600V
> >and the interurbans ran on, say, 1200V, how did the two types of coaches
> >coexist on 1200V lines? Did the streetcars use a dropping resistor on
> >1200V lines, or did the interurbans run, albeit slower, on 600V for the
> >1/2 mile of trackage leading to/from the PSB to Hibernia. Seeing that
> >human operators were usually employed to synchronize the converters at
> >substations, did the interurbans ever convert to unmanned mercury-vapor
> >rectifier setups at their substations?
> >
> >On 3/19/2011 11:05 PM, Don Ross wrote:
> > > I thought I had explained the area.  Harrison Street was the end of
> > > the street.  North of the area was residential.  Then we had private
> > > trackage from South.  On the East Side of the main line was the
> > > rotary convertor, shops, storage tracks, and the truck trailler
> > > tracks.  West of the main line was the station.  It was a 2 story
> > > building on the south end of the building and on the north side was
> > > the MD depot.  Besides the track than along the station, a second
> > > track served as a unloading area.
> > > The station itself was also used as a waiting room.  I don't remember
> > > if there was an agent there or if they just used collectors on the cars.
> > > Don




From DLeistikow at webtv.net  Sun Mar 20 03:08:58 2011
From: DLeistikow at webtv.net (Don L. Leistikow)
Date: Sun, 20 Mar 2011 02:08:58 -0500
Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: 1949: National City
	=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Lines=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0conspirators?= are convicted.
In-Reply-To: Gary Schnabl <gSchnabl@SWDetroit.com>'s message of Sat, 19 Mar
	2011 22:13:13 -0400
Message-ID: <17025-4D85A80A-8443@storefull-3173.bay.webtv.net>

Gary S and list:  My reference to the 45 plus 3 States contained the
word 'contiguous' so limiting the count by excluding the remaining
out-lying States and Territories.                                         

As for the proposed rail service to Madison, I disagree with the overall
proposition.  My position is; that passenger train service to and from
Madison, is that alone.  At this point, it has nothing to do with
re-routing the existing Amtrak train between Chicago and Seattle.  So,
let's concentrate on what servcie is needed between Madison and
Milwaukee via Watertown.  Should it be a real high speed, non-stp, train
or... should it be a local, making many stops at intermediate stations?
The latter choice, is what we've had in the historic past.         

I vote for a local type of service that includes intermediate stops.                      

As for Badger Coach service, I reached them by telephone, some time ago
and discoverd that they no longer stop in downtown Madison as all to few
passengers boardrd or alighted, there.  Badger Coach, goes directly to
the UW Campus.  Sheds quite a different light on the subject, doesn't
it?                              

As for Amtrak's Empire Builder service, keep it on the mainline.  As
it's only one train per day, each way, I see no need to detour via
Madison, for a potential few patrons.  I'd rather see a Bus connection
between Madison and Portage for those passengers.  Less expensive
overall,         

Let's we forget, the C&NW once had a more direct line between Milwaukee
and Madison.  This was the line that came out of Milwaukee via Chase
Yard and west on the mainline via West Allis, thence west on an almost
straight line through Waukesha,Wales, Sullivan, Jefferson and Cambridge
to Madison.                             

That's worthy of some thought, too !          

Don L.     



From gSchnabl at SWDetroit.com  Sun Mar 20 04:58:13 2011
From: gSchnabl at SWDetroit.com (Gary Schnabl)
Date: Sun, 20 Mar 2011 04:58:13 -0400
Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: 1949: National City =?UTF-8?Q?Lines=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0conspirators?= are convicted.
In-Reply-To: <17025-4D85A80A-8443@storefull-3173.bay.webtv.net>
References: <17025-4D85A80A-8443@storefull-3173.bay.webtv.net>
Message-ID: <4D85C1A5.7060904@SWDetroit.com>

Don the Elder,
In 1995, the CNW merged into the Union Pacific, so that might suggest 
that older Rust-Belt Wisconsin is not that hot for freight anymore 
either. The Milwaukee Road disappeared eons ago. The Soo Line sometimes 
came to Madison via Freeport IL, though--unless a short line now does 
that occasional business today. However, the Soo Line is now owned by 
the Canadian National. Its Madison terminal building is now a U-Haul 
facility.

BTW, the Badger Bus took advantage of moving very near to (literally a 
very few blocks away from) the new Ho-Chunk casino outside the city 
limits of (SE) Madison, where the bankrupt water park formerly was. So, 
instead of having its former office where an older passenger rail depot 
once stood (and across the street from the former West Side Depot 
(Milwaukee Road), it now stops at the UW Memorial Union--still downtown 
and only another block or two further away from the Capitol than it was 
previously. The UW campus is only two blocks away from the old Badger 
Bus station, in case you do not know exactly where the UW campus has 
sprawled over to downtown. And then there is the Greyhound Bus depot 
just a bit east of the Capitol.

Gary


On 3/20/2011 3:08 AM, Don L. Leistikow wrote:
> Gary S and list:  My reference to the 45 plus 3 States contained the
> word 'contiguous' so limiting the count by excluding the remaining
> out-lying States and Territories.
>
> As for the proposed rail service to Madison, I disagree with the overall
> proposition.  My position is; that passenger train service to and from
> Madison, is that alone.  At this point, it has nothing to do with
> re-routing the existing Amtrak train between Chicago and Seattle.  So,
> let's concentrate on what servcie is needed between Madison and
> Milwaukee via Watertown.  Should it be a real high speed, non-stp, train
> or... should it be a local, making many stops at intermediate stations?
> The latter choice, is what we've had in the historic past.
>
> I vote for a local type of service that includes intermediate stops.
>
> As for Badger Coach service, I reached them by telephone, some time ago
> and discoverd that they no longer stop in downtown Madison as all to few
> passengers boardrd or alighted, there.  Badger Coach, goes directly to
> the UW Campus.  Sheds quite a different light on the subject, doesn't
> it?
>
> As for Amtrak's Empire Builder service, keep it on the mainline.  As
> it's only one train per day, each way, I see no need to detour via
> Madison, for a potential few patrons.  I'd rather see a Bus connection
> between Madison and Portage for those passengers.  Less expensive
> overall,
>
> Let's we forget, the C&NW once had a more direct line between Milwaukee
> and Madison.  This was the line that came out of Milwaukee via Chase
> Yard and west on the mainline via West Allis, thence west on an almost
> straight line through Waukesha,Wales, Sullivan, Jefferson and Cambridge
> to Madison.
>
> That's worthy of some thought, too !
>
> Don L.


-- 

Gary Schnabl
Southwest Detroit, two miles NORTH! of Canada--Windsor, that is...

Technical Editor forum <http://TechnicalEditor.LivernoisYard.com/phpBB3/>





From yance at oldmilwaukee.net  Sat Mar 19 14:38:11 2011
From: yance at oldmilwaukee.net (Y Marti)
Date: Sat, 19 Mar 2011 14:38:11 -0400
Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: 9th street
In-Reply-To: <4D84F1D8.8030807@SWDetroit.com>
References: <5383-4D84DCB9-3651@storefull-3171.bay.webtv.net>
 <20110319135342.927057cczqecno0s@horde.oldmilwaukee.net>
 <4D84F1D8.8030807@SWDetroit.com>
Message-ID: <20110319143811.113462rzx849tbk8@horde.oldmilwaukee.net>

Gary,

Abel & Bach did downsize by the 1950s and by then had sold off the  
building you mentioned. They were a big company in the earlier part of  
the century and had a big factory stretching to St. Paul and also east  
of 10th Street. The main office was on St. Paul. With the Stock Market  
Crash they had to sell to Stearns but still kept manufacturing there  
through the 1950s.

Yance M.


> That was what I thought, when I mentioned that Don might have mixed up
> the north vs south side of that building in his description of it. No
> big deal, but I am glad that it is now cleared up.
>
> If I had owned A&B, I would not relocate just to satisfy the transit
> line's wish for a subway that they could not afford to build anyway,
> knowing that "my" business was a profitable going concern and all,
> making payroll and little things like that... As far as A&B was
> concerned, the rapid transit was just another "expressway," seeking to
> take their land and livelihood.
>
> Mi dos centavos...
>
> --
>
> Gary Schnabl
> Southwest Detroit, two miles NORTH! of Canada--Windsor, that is...
>
> Technical Editor forum <http://TechnicalEditor.LivernoisYard.com/phpBB3/>
>
>
>
>
>




From gSchnabl at SWDetroit.com  Sun Mar 20 05:36:12 2011
From: gSchnabl at SWDetroit.com (Gary Schnabl)
Date: Sun, 20 Mar 2011 05:36:12 -0400
Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: 9th street
In-Reply-To: <20110319143811.113462rzx849tbk8@horde.oldmilwaukee.net>
References: <5383-4D84DCB9-3651@storefull-3171.bay.webtv.net> <20110319135342.927057cczqecno0s@horde.oldmilwaukee.net> <4D84F1D8.8030807@SWDetroit.com> <20110319143811.113462rzx849tbk8@horde.oldmilwaukee.net>
Message-ID: <4D85CA8C.3000607@SWDetroit.com>

Was Stearns also a local outfit? One guy in the one semester I dormed at 
UW-Madison was named Stearns. His father ran the state GOP party back 
then (1963). As a banjoist, he got me interested in starting to play the 
5-string banjo--southern Appalachian clawhammer style, ala Grandpa Jones.
So, A&B had properties on both sides of Hibernia, considering its office 
and factory as two separate parcels. A&B was listed as a quality luggage 
company when I websearched it a few years ago. Then DDE (Don der Elder) 
was correct if he was referring to its office parcel.

Was Dorecrest Poultry anywhere near the ROW, as I could find almost 
nothing about it other than an older address (125 N. Muskego [Emmbers])?


On 3/19/2011 2:38 PM, Y Marti wrote:
> Gary,
>
> Abel&  Bach did downsize by the 1950s and by then had sold off the
> building you mentioned. They were a big company in the earlier part of
> the century and had a big factory stretching to St. Paul and also east
> of 10th Street. The main office was on St. Paul. With the Stock Market
> Crash they had to sell to Stearns but still kept manufacturing there
> through the 1950s.
>
> Yance M.


-- 

Gary Schnabl
Southwest Detroit, two miles NORTH! of Canada--Windsor, that is...

Technical Editor forum <http://TechnicalEditor.LivernoisYard.com/phpBB3/>





From gSchnabl at SWDetroit.com  Sun Mar 20 06:01:20 2011
From: gSchnabl at SWDetroit.com (Gary Schnabl)
Date: Sun, 20 Mar 2011 06:01:20 -0400
Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Joseph G. Bach bio of ABC: Abel Bach Company
Message-ID: <4D85D070.5050209@SWDetroit.com>

http://books.google.com/books?id=GkIVAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA498&lpg=PA498&dq=milwaukee+abel+bach+luggage&source=bl&ots=rPb4ZjiAfw&sig=JNMih3VGTff4SwVqwQAVpVOQo6E&hl=en&ei=0s2FTZ6tNYm2twf1zLXOBQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=4&ved=0CCcQ6AEwAw#v=onepage&q&f=false
1906 grad of MU, attended Ste. Rose and Marquette Academy before that. 
Then four years in mining engineering at MIT. In 1910, he joined the 
family business and eventually headed A&B.
-- 

Gary Schnabl
Southwest Detroit, two miles NORTH! of Canada--Windsor, that is...

Technical Editor forum <http://TechnicalEditor.LivernoisYard.com/phpBB3/>





From DLeistikow at webtv.net  Sun Mar 20 11:09:37 2011
From: DLeistikow at webtv.net (Don L. Leistikow)
Date: Sun, 20 Mar 2011 10:09:37 -0500
Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: 1949: National City
	=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Lines=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0conspirators?=
	are convicted.
In-Reply-To: Gary Schnabl <gSchnabl@SWDetroit.com>'s message of Sun, 20 Mar
	2011 04:58:13 -0400
Message-ID: <23182-4D8618B1-8658@storefull-3172.bay.webtv.net>

An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed...
Name: not available
Url: http://mailman.dementix.org/pipermail/milwaukee-electric/attachments/20110320/fcc121f8/attachment.pl 

From DLeistikow at webtv.net  Sun Mar 20 11:21:10 2011
From: DLeistikow at webtv.net (Don L. Leistikow)
Date: Sun, 20 Mar 2011 10:21:10 -0500
Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: Joseph G. Bach bio of ABC: Abel Bach
	Company
In-Reply-To: Gary Schnabl <gSchnabl@SWDetroit.com>'s message of Sun, 20 Mar
	2011 06:01:20 -0400
Message-ID: <23182-4D861B66-8678@storefull-3172.bay.webtv.net>

Gary S:   Regretfully, my webber posted the page way too small for
reading.           

Don L.   



From DLeistikow at webtv.net  Sun Mar 20 11:49:18 2011
From: DLeistikow at webtv.net (Don L. Leistikow)
Date: Sun, 20 Mar 2011 10:49:18 -0500
Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: [milwaukee-electric)  Power
In-Reply-To: Gary Schnabl <gSchnabl@SWDetroit.com>'s message of Sun, 20 Mar
	2011 00:03:22 -0400
Message-ID: <23185-4D8621FE-3088@storefull-3172.bay.webtv.net>

Gary S and list:   Confusing and possibly amusing.                                                  

The City System, always used 600 volts, DC.  When the Interurban lines
were constructied to Waukesha and west, they employed 1200 volts, DC,
west of 84th street and beyond.  The Car Station at 84th and Lapham
streets generated and fed both voltages therefrom.                      

With the building of the East Troy and Burlington Lines, an experiment
was conducted using 3300 volts AC, 1907 - 1909, as I recall.  Those
lines reverted to 1200 DC and utimately changed over to a common 600
volts DC, throughout the entire System.                                          

Don L.        



From yance at oldmilwaukee.net  Wed Mar 16 17:41:18 2011
From: yance at oldmilwaukee.net (Y Marti)
Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2011 17:41:18 -0400
Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: Name of the Milwaukee Train Station
 During 1969
In-Reply-To: <4D812559.3010704@SWDetroit.com>
References: <5381-4D80EDD3-573@storefull-3171.bay.webtv.net>
 <4D812559.3010704@SWDetroit.com>
Message-ID: <20110316174118.108547oiy436s2o0@horde.oldmilwaukee.net>

The picture would have been soon after the Public Museum was open in 1963.

>
>
Quoting Gary Schnabl <gSchnabl at SWDetroit.com>:

This 1950s or 1960s aerial photo just barely shows the luggage  
company, the subway entrance, and some visible remnants of the PROW  
between 7th
and 8th Streets in the right-bottom corner. Can anybody peg the year of
the photo better than the description on the retro Milwaukee website?
>
>





From x779 at webtv.net  Tue Mar 22 11:51:32 2011
From: x779 at webtv.net (Louis Rugani)
Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2011 15:51:32 GMT
Subject: [milwaukee-electric] .
Message-ID: <SNT113-DS17C395A35A1BABE773A07A98B40@phx.gbl>

An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed...
Name: not available
Url: http://mailman.dementix.org/pipermail/milwaukee-electric/attachments/20110322/c05a1559/attachment.pl 

From x779 at webtv.net  Tue Mar 22 15:11:32 2011
From: x779 at webtv.net (Louis Rugani)
Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2011 19:11:32 GMT
Subject: [milwaukee-electric] National City Lines.
Message-ID: <SNT113-DS22490279E96B42835AC7F398B40@phx.gbl>




-----Original Message-----
From: William Sell
Sent: Saturday, March 19, 2011 11:37 PM
To: milwaukee-electric at lists.dementia.org
Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: National City Lines convictions.

I don't want a tit for tat rail argument here. I have no admiration 
for Randal O'Toole's "facts" and his schilling for the oil industry, 
but I will refer anyone interested to a book written by two very 
conservative contemporaries: Paul Weyrich and William Lind, "Moving 
Minds" - it is an appeal to fact for the benefit of fellow 
conservatives to get on board and support rail. I will let Lind and 
Weyrich speak to the issue.

I am, however, somewhat versed and would not mind an exchange of 
views with anyone on this issue. But let's take it off this listserve 
as a courtesy to the rest of the readers here.  At all times, anyone 
can get in touch with me to find out if there is a discussion they can join.

Bill Sell






At 02:12 PM 3/19/2011, Louis Rugani wrote:
>Gary Schnabl writes:
>
>"Are there those still blaming GM et al. for the demise of 
>traction?  ... But, come on! How serious could the conspiracy have 
>been if the penalty meted out was $5000, plus $1 for every convicted person?"
>
>I stated facts. Those convictions followed lengthy court 
>battles.  The tiny fines show the depth of the conspiracy. GM spent 
>years and millions trying to overturn those convictions and its 
>$5,000 fine. That tells me a lot.
>
>"Traction was doomed to failure as their cities became suburbanized."
>
>Traction is back and getting bigger each year.
>
>And nothing personal, Mr. Schnabl, but your following arguments 
>below are fallacious and right out of the current anti-railers' 
>songbook as sung by Randal OToole, Wendell Cox and Tom Rubin:
>
>"Traction may be cheaper to run, but their capital construction 
>costs are very high per mile. Buses are not serial, meaning that if 
>a bus breaks down enroute, the system does not. And buses can easily 
>be rerouted in
>case a major (or minor) fire or traffic situation ties up the ROW 
>for hours or days. There can be no real denying that. Plus, most or 
>all of those traction systems were broke--or getting there. Time to let it go."
>
>Traction advocates, such as those who populate this list, will never 
>"let it go", lest it happen again.
>
>=Lou=
>
>~~~~~~~~~~ **-=\/=-** ~~~~~~~~~~
>
>The opposite of bravery is not cowardice, but conformity.      Robert Anthony
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Gary Schnabl
>Sent: Saturday, March 19, 2011 1:31 PM
>To: milwaukee-electric at lists.dementia.org
>Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: 1949: National City Lines 
>conspirators are convicted.
>
>On 3/19/2011 1:59 PM, Louis Rugani wrote:
> > On this day in 1949: National City Lines conspirators are convicted.
> >
> > Location: United States Federal Court
> >
> > Following a nearly two-year court process, on March 19th, 1949 
> nine American corporations and seven individuals were  convicted 
> under federal charges of one count each of conspiring to monopolize 
> part of American trade and commerce: National City Lines (and E. 
> Roy Fitzgerald&  Foster C. Beamsley) American City Lines, Pacific 
> City Lines, General Motors (and H.C. Grossman)Standard Oil of 
> California (and Henry C. Judd), Federal Engineering Corporation, 
> Phillips Petroleum Corporation (and A.M. Hughes&  Frank B. 
> Stradley), Firestone Tire and Rubber Company (and L.R. Jackson), 
> and Mack (Truck) Mfg.
>
>Are there those still blaming GM et al. for the demise of traction?
>[BTW, although GM's HQ is but five miles east from here, I have no love
>for the company and wish it to ultimately fail due to its obaminations.]
>But, come on! How serious could the conspiracy have been if the penalty
>meted out was $5000, plus $1 for every convicted person?
>
>Traction was doomed to failure as their cities became suburbanized.
>Traction may be cheaper to run, but their capital construction costs are
>very high per mile. Buses are not serial, meaning that if a bus breaks
>down enroute, the system does not. And buses can easily be rerouted in
>case a major (or minor) fire or traffic situation ties up the ROW for
>hours or days. There can be no real denying that. Plus, most or all of
>those traction systems were broke--or getting there.
>
>Time to let it go.
>--
>
>Gary Schnabl
>Southwest Detroit, two miles NORTH! of Canada--Windsor, that is...
>
>Technical Editor forum <http://TechnicalEditor.LivernoisYard.com/phpBB3/>

**********************************
"So much has been destroyed, I have cast my lot with those who, age 
after age, perversely, with no extraordinary power, reconstitute the 
world." -- Adrienne Rich  






From x779 at webtv.net  Tue Mar 22 15:25:27 2011
From: x779 at webtv.net (Louis Rugani)
Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2011 19:25:27 GMT
Subject: [milwaukee-electric] National City Lines.
Message-ID: <SNT113-DS20E3CD7A9405E6D632B4A298B40@phx.gbl>

"I don't want a tit for tat rail argument here."

The gentleman posted the tit, so I posted the tat.

"But let's take it off this listserve 
as a courtesy to the rest of the readers here."

I didn't consider anything remotely discourteous. My investigations show that NCL had its corroding fingers in Kenosha Motor Coach Lines, and thereby in Milwaukee. 

=Lou=

~~~~~~~~~~ **-=\/=-** ~~~~~~~~~~

The opposite of bravery is not cowardice, but conformity.       Robert Anthony




From sbgreig_m1 at yahoo.com  Tue Mar 22 15:33:02 2011
From: sbgreig_m1 at yahoo.com (Scott Greig)
Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2011 12:33:02 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: National City Lines.
In-Reply-To: <SNT113-DS20E3CD7A9405E6D632B4A298B40@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <891969.64774.qm@web120716.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>

What was NCL's connection to Kenosha Motor Coach Lines?  I know that the North Shore Line was actually a majority owner of KMCL for a time, when it was still an interurban.

--- On Tue, 3/22/11, Louis Rugani <x779 at webtv.net> wrote:

> From: Louis Rugani <x779 at webtv.net>
> Subject: [milwaukee-electric] National City Lines.
> To: milwaukee-electric at lists.dementia.org
> Date: Tuesday, March 22, 2011, 2:25 PM
> "I don't want a tit for tat rail
> argument here."
> 
> The gentleman posted the tit, so I posted the tat.
> 
> "But let's take it off this listserve 
> as a courtesy to the rest of the readers here."
> 
> I didn't consider anything remotely discourteous. My
> investigations show that NCL had its corroding fingers in
> Kenosha Motor Coach Lines, and thereby in Milwaukee. 
> 
> =Lou=
> 
> ~~~~~~~~~~ **-=\/=-** ~~~~~~~~~~
> 
> The opposite of bravery is not cowardice, but
> conformity.? ? ???Robert Anthony
> 
> 
> 
> 



From sunrise at bikethehoan.com  Tue Mar 22 22:20:37 2011
From: sunrise at bikethehoan.com (William Sell)
Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2011 21:20:37 -0500
Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: National City Lines.
In-Reply-To: <SNT113-DS20E3CD7A9405E6D632B4A298B40@phx.gbl>
References: <SNT113-DS20E3CD7A9405E6D632B4A298B40@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <4d8958ee.435b340a.76db.ffff831b@mx.google.com>

Lou

My comment in NO WAY was aimed as a criticism of you. I appreciate 
your vigorous defense of rail as an essential part of a modern city's 
infrastructure. Nor did I accuse anyone of discourtesy.  But we did 
get a request to limit discussion. I made what I thought was the 
proper gesture, but no one has joined my suggestion.  Your dissent 
would seem to be the vote that counts. 1-0, keep politics alive.  I join you.

As for politics, I find it difficult to look at photos of old trains 
and not feel rage for our losses.   2-0.

.....What is NCL?

Bill





At 02:25 PM 3/22/2011, Louis Rugani wrote:
>"I don't want a tit for tat rail argument here."
>
>The gentleman posted the tit, so I posted the tat.
>
>"But let's take it off this listserve
>as a courtesy to the rest of the readers here."
>
>I didn't consider anything remotely discourteous. My investigations 
>show that NCL had its corroding fingers in Kenosha Motor Coach 
>Lines, and thereby in Milwaukee.
>
>=Lou=
>
>~~~~~~~~~~ **-=\/=-** ~~~~~~~~~~
>
>The opposite of bravery is not cowardice, but conformity.      Robert Anthony

**********************************
"So much has been destroyed, I have cast my lot with those who, age 
after age, perversely, with no extraordinary power, reconstitute the 
world." -- Adrienne Rich  



From x779 at webtv.net  Thu Mar 24 14:28:54 2011
From: x779 at webtv.net (Louis Rugani)
Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2011 18:28:54 GMT
Subject: [milwaukee-electric] National City Lines.
Message-ID: <SNT113-DS1479834D76F2D57345E3E898B60@phx.gbl>

Thanks, Bill. No offense was taken; that was just an explanation.

Right, one person asked to stop discussing NCL, even though NCL was active around here. Part of NCL's structure was Northland Greyhound, which got control of the NSL and Kenosha and Racine Motor Coach Lines. KMCL made a fortune buying up TMER&L lines for peanuts and then scrapping them out for ten times what they'd paid. Their chief operative was dairyman Henry P. Bruner of Racine, who also had ties to Hammond Coach in Indiana. When the lines were gone, KMCL went out of business with their profits. I did some radio shows on the local tie-ins last year. Otherwise there is the great "Taken For a Ride" by New Day Films on YouTube.

I believe there's evidence that NCL's secret efforts also quietly put the coup de grace on the wounded Speedrail in 1950-1951.  

NCL as such may be gone, but it's not over because now we rail advocates have the likes of Wendell Cox, Tom Rubin, the Koch Brothers, the Cato Institute and other front groups and their stooges like Scott Walker fighting rail every inch of the way. 


-----Original Message-----
From: William Sell
Sent: Tuesday, March 22, 2011 9:20 PM
To: milwaukee-electric at lists.dementia.org
Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: National City Lines.

Lou

My comment in NO WAY was aimed as a criticism of you. I appreciate 
your vigorous defense of rail as an essential part of a modern city's 
infrastructure. Nor did I accuse anyone of discourtesy.  But we did 
get a request to limit discussion. I made what I thought was the 
proper gesture, but no one has joined my suggestion.  Your dissent 
would seem to be the vote that counts. 1-0, keep politics alive.  I join you.

As for politics, I find it difficult to look at photos of old trains 
and not feel rage for our losses.   2-0.

.....What is NCL?

Bill





At 02:25 PM 3/22/2011, Louis Rugani wrote:
>"I don't want a tit for tat rail argument here."
>
>The gentleman posted the tit, so I posted the tat.
>
>"But let's take it off this listserve
>as a courtesy to the rest of the readers here."
>
>I didn't consider anything remotely discourteous. My investigations 
>show that NCL had its corroding fingers in Kenosha Motor Coach 
>Lines, and thereby in Milwaukee.
>
>=Lou=
>
>~~~~~~~~~~ **-=\/=-** ~~~~~~~~~~
>
>The opposite of bravery is not cowardice, but conformity.      Robert Anthony

**********************************
"So much has been destroyed, I have cast my lot with those who, age 
after age, perversely, with no extraordinary power, reconstitute the 
world." -- Adrienne Rich  






From gSchnabl at SWDetroit.com  Thu Mar 24 22:49:03 2011
From: gSchnabl at SWDetroit.com (Gary Schnabl)
Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2011 22:49:03 -0400
Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: National City Lines.
In-Reply-To: <SNT113-DS1479834D76F2D57345E3E898B60@phx.gbl>
References: <SNT113-DS1479834D76F2D57345E3E898B60@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <4D8C029F.8090904@SWDetroit.com>

On 3/24/2011 2:28 PM, Louis Rugani wrote:
> Thanks, Bill. No offense was taken; that was just an explanation.
>
> Right, one person asked to stop discussing NCL, even though NCL was active around here. Part of NCL's structure was Northland Greyhound, which got control of the NSL and Kenosha and Racine Motor Coach Lines. KMCL made a fortune buying up TMER&L lines for peanuts and then scrapping them out for ten times what they'd paid.
Perhaps, it would have been best if TMER&L had scrapped their own lines 
themselves (as did other interurbans nationally (Detroit's final 
interurban died in 1934; others there died back around 1910)--thus 
making ten times as much than they sold it for... Seems to have been 
more of a bad decision on the part of the traction company, if money was 
a primary issue.

> Their chief operative was dairyman Henry P. Bruner of Racine, who also had ties to Hammond Coach in Indiana. When the lines were gone, KMCL went out of business with their profits. I did some radio shows on the local tie-ins last year. Otherwise there is the great "Taken For a Ride" by New Day Films on YouTube.
>
> I believe there's evidence that NCL's secret efforts also quietly put the coup de grace on the wounded Speedrail in 1950-1951.
>
> NCL as such may be gone, but it's not over because now we rail advocates have the likes of Wendell Cox, Tom Rubin, the Koch Brothers, the Cato Institute and other front groups and their stooges like Scott Walker fighting rail every inch of the way.

The Kochs are to today's various (dozens?) Tea Party groups as George 
Soros is to the socialist front groups that he openly bankrolls for the 
Democrats. Milwaukee, during the first half of the 20th Century, elected 
a consecutive string of seven socialist mayors. It appears as if some 
remnants of that sort of political thought still live on.


Gary
-- 

Gary Schnabl
Southwest Detroit, two miles NORTH! of Canada--Windsor, that is...

Technical Editor forum <http://TechnicalEditor.LivernoisYard.com/phpBB3/>





From DLeistikow at webtv.net  Mon Mar 28 23:03:25 2011
From: DLeistikow at webtv.net (Don L. Leistikow)
Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2011 22:03:25 -0500
Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: National City Lines.
In-Reply-To: Louis Rugani <x779@webtv.net>'s message of Thu, 24 Mar 2011
	18:28:54 GMT
Message-ID: <7679-4D914BFD-2082@storefull-3172.bay.webtv.net>

William Sell and list:  National City Lines was an organization that was
incorporated in 1936, for the expressed purpose of of acquiring and
operating local transit companies                                                

A complete history..."Revisiting the      American Streetcar Scandal"
was written by Al Mankoff and.... can be viewed on the internet.  See
the rul, below;                

http://njtpa.org/public_affairs/intrans//scandal.html                                                    

The indicted companies were:  National City lines, Inc., American City
Lines, Inc., Pacific City Lines, Inc., the Standard Oil Company of
California, the Federal Engineering Corporation, the Phillips Petroleum
Company, the General Motors Corporation, the Firestone Tire & Rubber
Company and the Mack Manufacturing Corporation.                                             

The individuals indicted were; E.  Roy Fitzgerald and Foster G. Beamsley
of NCL;  H.C. Grossman, GM;  Henry C. Judd, Standard Oil of California;
L.R. Jackson, Firestone Tire & Rubber Company;  Frank B Stradley, and
A.M. Hughes, Phillips Petroleum.                      

In March 13, 1949, they were all convicted on one count of conspiring to
monopolize a part of the trade and cmmerce of the United States.                                           

At that time, NCL owned or controlled, 47 local transportation systems
in California, Missouri, Washington, Utah, Maryland, Alabama, Florida,
Illinois, Oklahoma, Indiana, Iowa, Mississippi, Nebraska, Michigan,
Texas and Ohio.                        

But then, read it for yourself.......               

Don L. Leistikow



From ktjosephson at embarqmail.com  Mon Mar 28 23:43:17 2011
From: ktjosephson at embarqmail.com (Ken and Tracie)
Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2011 20:43:17 -0700
Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: National City Lines.
References: <7679-4D914BFD-2082@storefull-3172.bay.webtv.net>
Message-ID: <58E6F19C9D86472D88C742136087EB12@KTJosephson>

Don, an interesting red. Thanks. I have a friend in Florida who wants to 
believe National City Lines dismantled the Milwaukee rail transit system. 
But we know the company decided to divest itself of the interurban lines and 
switch its urban operations to rubber tires during the 1930s.

If KMCL or Greyhound had any ties to NCL, the point was moot by the 1940s. 
TMER&L started abandoning interurban line segments in 1938 and TMER&T 
continued the policy until they wound up having to sell the interurban lines 
to get rid of them after Pearl Harbor.

K.

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Don L. Leistikow" <DLeistikow at webtv.net>
To: <milwaukee-electric at lists.dementia.org>
Cc: <emory1522 at wi.rr.com>
Sent: Monday, March 28, 2011 8:03 PM
Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: National City Lines.


> William Sell and list:  National City Lines was an organization that was
> incorporated in 1936, for the expressed purpose of of acquiring and
> operating local transit companies
>
> A complete history..."Revisiting the      American Streetcar Scandal"
> was written by Al Mankoff and.... can be viewed on the internet.  See
> the rul, below;
>
> http://njtpa.org/public_affairs/intrans//scandal.html
>
> The indicted companies were:  National City lines, Inc., American City
> Lines, Inc., Pacific City Lines, Inc., the Standard Oil Company of
> California, the Federal Engineering Corporation, the Phillips Petroleum
> Company, the General Motors Corporation, the Firestone Tire & Rubber
> Company and the Mack Manufacturing Corporation.
>
> The individuals indicted were; E.  Roy Fitzgerald and Foster G. Beamsley
> of NCL;  H.C. Grossman, GM;  Henry C. Judd, Standard Oil of California;
> L.R. Jackson, Firestone Tire & Rubber Company;  Frank B Stradley, and
> A.M. Hughes, Phillips Petroleum.
>
> In March 13, 1949, they were all convicted on one count of conspiring to
> monopolize a part of the trade and cmmerce of the United States.
>
> At that time, NCL owned or controlled, 47 local transportation systems
> in California, Missouri, Washington, Utah, Maryland, Alabama, Florida,
> Illinois, Oklahoma, Indiana, Iowa, Mississippi, Nebraska, Michigan,
> Texas and Ohio.
>
> But then, read it for yourself.......
>
> Don L. Leistikow
>
> 



From gSchnabl at SWDetroit.com  Tue Mar 29 00:58:41 2011
From: gSchnabl at SWDetroit.com (Gary Schnabl)
Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2011 00:58:41 -0400
Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: National City Lines.
In-Reply-To: <7679-4D914BFD-2082@storefull-3172.bay.webtv.net>
References: <7679-4D914BFD-2082@storefull-3172.bay.webtv.net>
Message-ID: <4D916701.6040103@SWDetroit.com>

On 3/28/2011 11:03 PM, Don L. Leistikow wrote:
> William Sell and list:  National City Lines was an organization that was
> incorporated in 1936, for the expressed purpose of of acquiring and
> operating local transit companies
>
> A complete history..."Revisiting the      American Streetcar Scandal"
> was written by Al Mankoff and.... can be viewed on the internet.  See
> the rul, below;
>
> http://njtpa.org/public_affairs/intrans//scandal.html
>
> The indicted companies were:  National City lines, Inc., American City
> Lines, Inc., Pacific City Lines, Inc., the Standard Oil Company of
> California, the Federal Engineering Corporation, the Phillips Petroleum
> Company, the General Motors Corporation, the Firestone Tire&  Rubber
> Company and the Mack Manufacturing Corporation.
>
> The individuals indicted were; E.  Roy Fitzgerald and Foster G. Beamsley
> of NCL;  H.C. Grossman, GM;  Henry C. Judd, Standard Oil of California;
> L.R. Jackson, Firestone Tire&  Rubber Company;  Frank B Stradley, and
> A.M. Hughes, Phillips Petroleum.
>
> In March 13, 1949, they were all convicted on one count of conspiring to
> monopolize a part of the trade and cmmerce of the United States.
>
> At that time, NCL owned or controlled, 47 local transportation systems
> in California, Missouri, Washington, Utah, Maryland, Alabama, Florida,
> Illinois, Oklahoma, Indiana, Iowa, Mississippi, Nebraska, Michigan,
> Texas and Ohio.
>
> But then, read it for yourself.......
>
> Don L. Leistikow
I believe that the GM et al. conviction involved a conspiracy of selling 
motor coaches (monopoly?). However, they were acquitted of conspiring to 
acquire the ownership of the traction companies.

On another matter, my grandfather was pretty much self-employed most his 
life. He emigrated the Austrian Alps during 1901 while he was seventeen 
and settled in what was then the town of Wawatosa before Milwaukee 
annexed it. He died when I was only seven or eight, so I almost never 
talked with him, as he left Milwaukee for Texas in 1928 and my parents 
eventually lived in his former farmhouse on Capitol. I only saw him on a 
very few occasions.

He once worked on Milwaukee's streetcars, but what he did I do not know. 
Beside truck farming, he was a carpenter and house builder--both in 
Wawatosa/Milwaukee and in the Low Rio Grande. Was there some kind of 
work that carpenters routinely did on the streetcars?

Gary
-- 

Gary Schnabl
Southwest Detroit, two miles NORTH! of Canada--Windsor, that is...

Technical Editor forum <http://TechnicalEditor.LivernoisYard.com/phpBB3/>





From gSchnabl at SWDetroit.com  Tue Mar 29 02:29:25 2011
From: gSchnabl at SWDetroit.com (Gary Schnabl)
Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2011 02:29:25 -0400
Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: National City Lines.
In-Reply-To: <58E6F19C9D86472D88C742136087EB12@KTJosephson>
References: <7679-4D914BFD-2082@storefull-3172.bay.webtv.net> <58E6F19C9D86472D88C742136087EB12@KTJosephson>
Message-ID: <4D917C45.4000901@SWDetroit.com>

I believe that there is a fair amount of urban legends among some 
traction folk, accusing GM and whatever other devils of taking away 
their "jewels"--a common term here in Detroit--spoken by blacks accusing 
those in the suburbs (or elsewhere in the country) of "taking away" 
their crumbling infrastructure that those living in Detroit chose not to 
fix up themselves. IOW, a sense of entitlement where taxpayers elsewhere 
are supposed to support those who choose to receive rather than to ive...
Detroit, like Milwaukee, has its proponents of traction. But one thing 
that both cities have in common is a lack of capital funds to build such 
expensive systems. That is why Milwaukee will have to satisfy itself 
with three BRT routes: National, Greenfield, and Fondulac. And those 
three BRT routes are outright gifts also, paid for by taxpayers living 
far from Milwaukee.

AFAIK, the traction in Detroit was not affected by NCL, as the city of 
Detroit acquired the streetcars in the early 1920s ( 
http://www.detroittransithistory.info/TheDURYears.html ). Nor in 
Milwaukee, which Ken accurately states.

Many of the SE Michigan interurbans went out of business (or were 
bleeding ca$h) during the earliest days of the automobile, around 
1910ish. I saw early photos of some major Detroit streets leading out to 
the burbs that paralleled the interurbans into the suburbs that were six 
or eight lanes wide nearly a century ago. Those streets were not built 
that wide back then to accommodate streetcars or interurbans! And they 
were not built by the feds either.

The final interuban serving Detroit was centered in Farmington, NW of 
Detroit, and went broke during 1934. I visited its remaining buildings, 
which today serve as offices and some stores. It was once the 
coal-burning power plant and office.

Gary

On 3/28/2011 11:43 PM, Ken and Tracie wrote:
> Don, an interesting red. Thanks. I have a friend in Florida who wants to
> believe National City Lines dismantled the Milwaukee rail transit system.
> But we know the company decided to divest itself of the interurban lines and
> switch its urban operations to rubber tires during the 1930s.
>
> If KMCL or Greyhound had any ties to NCL, the point was moot by the 1940s.
> TMER&L started abandoning interurban line segments in 1938 and TMER&T
> continued the policy until they wound up having to sell the interurban lines
> to get rid of them after Pearl Harbor.
>
> K.


-- 

Gary Schnabl
Southwest Detroit, two miles NORTH! of Canada--Windsor, that is...

Technical Editor forum <http://TechnicalEditor.LivernoisYard.com/phpBB3/>





From DLeistikow at webtv.net  Tue Mar 29 03:15:29 2011
From: DLeistikow at webtv.net (Don L. Leistikow)
Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2011 02:15:29 -0500
Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: National City Lines.
In-Reply-To: Gary Schnabl <gSchnabl@SWDetroit.com>'s message of Tue, 29 Mar
	2011 00:58:41 -0400
Message-ID: <4521-4D918711-3252@storefull-3171.bay.webtv.net>

Gary S and list:  Yes, Gary... the Company had working wood shops in the
Car Stations and, of course, at the major Cold Spring Shops.                                   

There were several wooden cars that were in service... to the end.  The
Line cars; A 1, A 2 and A 3, plus the D 21, D 22 and D 23 all had wooden
bodies.          

Even the B series Sweepers... B 1 through B 49 and the C series Snow
Plows C 1, C 2 and C 3 were wood bodied.                    

Then remember that the streetcars and Interurban cars had wood roofs,
covered with canvas.                                             

Don L.   



From DLeistikow at webtv.net  Tue Mar 29 03:21:51 2011
From: DLeistikow at webtv.net (Don L. Leistikow)
Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2011 02:21:51 -0500
Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: National City Lines.
In-Reply-To: "Ken and Tracie" <ktjosephson@embarqmail.com>'s message of Mon, 28 Mar 2011 20:43:17 -0700
Message-ID: <4521-4D91888F-3258@storefull-3171.bay.webtv.net>

Ken:  I've heard both arguements pro and con, on the topic of NCL behind
the demolition of Milwaukee strretcars, et al.   

I've yet to fand any connection with TM and NCL.  The only possible
connection, albeit remote, would be from of through a connection
stemming from KMCL and its connection by or with Hammond Motor Coach.                                                     

Don L.    



From ktjosephson at embarqmail.com  Tue Mar 29 04:20:56 2011
From: ktjosephson at embarqmail.com (Ken and Tracie)
Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2011 01:20:56 -0700
Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: National City Lines.
References: <4521-4D91888F-3258@storefull-3171.bay.webtv.net>
Message-ID: <0BBC44B30A08425A8068A54392E3900F@KTJosephson>

Exactly. And unfortunately, the die was cast during the mid to late 1930s. 
Economic realities and social changes aside, the region lost a great asset. 
I believe this was realized by the late 1950s when some commuters, with 
other rail alternatives, fought tooth and nail to save the doomed North 
Shore Line. There was even talk among proponents of NSL retention of doing 
away with the NSL's street running within Milwaukee and placing the rails 
into the median of  I-94, some saying it could serve as the Genesis of a new 
local rapid transit system.

One line which doesn't seem to get much recognition in retrospect was the 
Milwaukee Northern Division. I am well acquainted with the region it once 
served. Today, I would not be surprised if that line would be packed with 
commuters, even if they were commuting from Port Washington, Grafton, 
Cedarburg, Mequon to and from the North Shore suburbs.

K.


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Don L. Leistikow" <DLeistikow at webtv.net>
To: <milwaukee-electric at lists.dementia.org>
Sent: Tuesday, March 29, 2011 12:21 AM
Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: National City Lines.


> Ken:  I've heard both arguements pro and con, on the topic of NCL behind
> the demolition of Milwaukee strretcars, et al.
>
> I've yet to fand any connection with TM and NCL.  The only possible
> connection, albeit remote, would be from of through a connection
> stemming from KMCL and its connection by or with Hammond Motor Coach.
>
> Don L.
>
> 



From gSchnabl at SWDetroit.com  Tue Mar 29 05:30:09 2011
From: gSchnabl at SWDetroit.com (Gary Schnabl)
Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2011 05:30:09 -0400
Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: National City Lines.
In-Reply-To: <4521-4D918711-3252@storefull-3171.bay.webtv.net>
References: <4521-4D918711-3252@storefull-3171.bay.webtv.net>
Message-ID: <4D91A6A1.6090608@SWDetroit.com>

On 3/29/2011 3:15 AM, Don L. Leistikow wrote:
> Gary S and list:  Yes, Gary... the Company had working wood shops in the
> Car Stations and, of course, at the major Cold Spring Shops.
>
> There were several wooden cars that were in service... to the end.  The
> Line cars; A 1, A 2 and A 3, plus the D 21, D 22 and D 23 all had wooden
> bodies.
>
> Even the B series Sweepers... B 1 through B 49 and the C series Snow
> Plows C 1, C 2 and C 3 were wood bodied.
>
> Then remember that the streetcars and Interurban cars had wood roofs,
> covered with canvas.
>
> Don L.
Are there any employee lists that might have any information on what my 
grandfather did? BOTOH, he might have been independently contracted out 
for some work...

Gary


-- 

Gary Schnabl
Southwest Detroit, two miles NORTH! of Canada--Windsor, that is...

Technical Editor forum <http://TechnicalEditor.LivernoisYard.com/phpBB3/>





From dick_myers at comcast.net  Tue Mar 29 07:18:40 2011
From: dick_myers at comcast.net (dick_myers at comcast.net)
Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2011 11:18:40 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: National City Lines.
In-Reply-To: <4521-4D918711-3252@storefull-3171.bay.webtv.net>
Message-ID: <1155910711.2979454.1301397520146.JavaMail.root@sz0046a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net>

I always wondered why the roofs were wooden and covered with canvas??? Seems not very durable materials. 
----- "Don L. Leistikow" <DLeistikow at webtv.net> wrote: 

Gary S and list: ??Yes, Gary... the Company had working wood shops in the 
Car Stations and, of course, at the major Cold Spring Shops. ?? ?? ?? ?? ?? ?? ?? ?? ?? ?? ?? ?? ?? ?? ?? ?? ?? 
There were several wooden cars that were in service... to the end. ??The 
Line cars; A 1, A 2 and A 3, plus the D 21, D 22 and D 23 all had wooden 
bodies. ?? ?? ?? ?? ?? 
Even the B series Sweepers... B 1 through B 49 and the C series Snow 
Plows C 1, C 2 and C 3 were wood bodied. ?? ?? ?? ?? ?? ?? ?? ?? ?? ?? 
Then remember that the streetcars and Interurban cars had wood roofs, 
covered with canvas. ?? ?? ?? ?? ?? ?? ?? ?? ?? ?? ?? ?? ?? ?? ?? ?? ?? ?? ?? ?? ?? ?? 
Don L. ?? 




From sbgreig_m1 at yahoo.com  Tue Mar 29 07:51:07 2011
From: sbgreig_m1 at yahoo.com (Scott Greig)
Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2011 04:51:07 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: National City Lines.
In-Reply-To: <1155910711.2979454.1301397520146.JavaMail.root@sz0046a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net>
Message-ID: <854325.33132.qm@web120720.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>

I think wood roofs persisted as long as they did because of flexing issues as the carbody is in motion.? As to durability, from what I can tell the combo was actually quite durable...PROVIDED that the car was in regular use.? The passing wind (from being in motion) did a very effective job of evaporating accumulated water and keeping both wood and canvas dry.
--- On Tue, 3/29/11, dick_myers at comcast.net <dick_myers at comcast.net> wrote:

From: dick_myers at comcast.net <dick_myers at comcast.net>
Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: National City Lines.
To: milwaukee-electric at lists.dementia.org
Date: Tuesday, March 29, 2011, 6:18 AM

I always wondered why the roofs were wooden and covered with canvas?? Seems not very durable materials. 
----- "Don L. Leistikow" <DLeistikow at webtv.net> wrote: 

Gary S and list: ?Yes, Gary... the Company had working wood shops in the 
Car Stations and, of course, at the major Cold Spring Shops. ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? 
There were several wooden cars that were in service... to the end. ?The 
Line cars; A 1, A 2 and A 3, plus the D 21, D 22 and D 23 all had wooden 
bodies. ? ? ? ? ? 
Even the B series Sweepers... B 1 through B 49 and the C series Snow 
Plows C 1, C 2 and C 3 were wood bodied. ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? 
Then remember that the streetcars and Interurban cars had wood roofs, 
covered with canvas. ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? 
Don L. ? 






From sbgreig_m1 at yahoo.com  Tue Mar 29 07:57:43 2011
From: sbgreig_m1 at yahoo.com (Scott Greig)
Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2011 04:57:43 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: National City Lines.
In-Reply-To: <4D91A6A1.6090608@SWDetroit.com>
Message-ID: <768607.83726.qm@web120706.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>

Quite a bit of the old wood machinery from Cold Spring Shops (and in at least one case, probably even the ancient Kinnickinnic Car Station shop) is now at IRM, and several pieces have been restored to service.
--- On Tue, 3/29/11, Gary Schnabl <gSchnabl at SWDetroit.com> wrote:

From: Gary Schnabl <gSchnabl at SWDetroit.com>
Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: National City Lines.
To: milwaukee-electric at lists.dementia.org
Date: Tuesday, March 29, 2011, 4:30 AM

On 3/29/2011 3:15 AM, Don L. Leistikow wrote:
> Gary S and list:? Yes, Gary... the Company had working wood shops in the
> Car Stations and, of course, at the major Cold Spring Shops.
>
> There were several wooden cars that were in service... to the end.? The
> Line cars; A 1, A 2 and A 3, plus the D 21, D 22 and D 23 all had wooden
> bodies.
>
> Even the B series Sweepers... B 1 through B 49 and the C series Snow
> Plows C 1, C 2 and C 3 were wood bodied.
>
> Then remember that the streetcars and Interurban cars had wood roofs,
> covered with canvas.
>
> Don L.
Are there any employee lists that might have any information on what my 
grandfather did? BOTOH, he might have been independently contracted out 
for some work...

Gary


-- 

Gary Schnabl
Southwest Detroit, two miles NORTH! of Canada--Windsor, that is...

Technical Editor forum <http://TechnicalEditor.LivernoisYard.com/phpBB3/>







From sbgreig_m1 at yahoo.com  Tue Mar 29 09:03:27 2011
From: sbgreig_m1 at yahoo.com (Scott Greig)
Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2011 06:03:27 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: National City Lines.
In-Reply-To: <4521-4D918711-3252@storefull-3171.bay.webtv.net>
Message-ID: <508561.76571.qm@web120702.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>

Let's also remember that the passenger cars (streetcars and interurbans) had a lot of wood body components, such as window frames, body posts and doors--all of which either saw a lot of use and abuse or would be easy casualties of even a minor collision.  And given that much of the Cold Spring machinery now at IRM was made for volume production instead of piecework, clearly they were going through a lot of wood maintaining such a large fleet of cars.

--- On Tue, 3/29/11, Don L. Leistikow <DLeistikow at webtv.net> wrote:

> From: Don L. Leistikow <DLeistikow at webtv.net>
> Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: National City Lines.
> To: milwaukee-electric at lists.dementia.org
> Date: Tuesday, March 29, 2011, 2:15 AM
> Gary S and list:? Yes, Gary...
> the Company had working wood shops in the
> Car Stations and, of course, at the major Cold Spring
> Shops.? ? ? ? ? ? ?
> ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?
> ? ???
> 
> There were several wooden cars that were in service... to
> the end.? The
> Line cars; A 1, A 2 and A 3, plus the D 21, D 22 and D 23
> all had wooden
> bodies.? ? ? ? ? 
> 
> Even the B series Sweepers... B 1 through B 49 and the C
> series Snow
> Plows C 1, C 2 and C 3 were wood bodied.? ?
> ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? 
> 
> Then remember that the streetcars and Interurban cars had
> wood roofs,
> covered with canvas.? ? ? ? ?
> ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?
> ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?
> ???
> 
> Don L.???
> 
> 
> 



From x779 at webtv.net  Tue Mar 29 10:40:42 2011
From: x779 at webtv.net (Louis Rugani)
Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2011 14:40:42 GMT
Subject: [milwaukee-electric] National City Lines.
Message-ID: <SNT113-DS9F2553B5292CBA49C861898BD0@phx.gbl>

NCL and related operations were very secretive and some of its tentacles were very tenuous. We know now NCL offered new Cadillacs to governing officials who agreed to vote for its agendas ... not all of them, just enough to get the majority of votes. They bought influence.

In Milwaukee, Speedrail was offered a free PCC demonstrator which would have saved power, but the offer was quickly rescinded without any explanation.  

Speedrail examiners gushed with optimism one month who said it had high potential ... and the next month, the very same officials flip-flopped and said the operation was hopeless and should be abandoned.  

KMCL had Northland Greyhound and Hammond Motor Coach ties.

There's lots more.

=Lou=

~~~~~~~~~~ **-=\/=-** ~~~~~~~~~~

The opposite of bravery is not cowardice, but conformity.       Robert Anthony


-----Original Message-----
From: Don L. Leistikow
Sent: Tuesday, March 29, 2011 2:21 AM
To: milwaukee-electric at lists.dementia.org
Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: National City Lines.

Ken:  I've heard both arguements pro and con, on the topic of NCL behind
the demolition of Milwaukee strretcars, et al.   

I've yet to fand any connection with TM and NCL.  The only possible
connection, albeit remote, would be from of through a connection
stemming from KMCL and its connection by or with Hammond Motor Coach.                                                     

Don L.    






From sbgreig_m1 at yahoo.com  Tue Mar 29 10:55:16 2011
From: sbgreig_m1 at yahoo.com (Scott Greig)
Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2011 07:55:16 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: National City Lines.
In-Reply-To: <SNT113-DS9F2553B5292CBA49C861898BD0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <723576.57125.qm@web120716.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>

Both instances could be as simple as people in charge recognizing reality...the PCC provider realizing that the company didn't have a prayer of affording to actually buy a fleet of new cars, and Speedrail's receiver recognizing that what the company needed was venture capital, which in 1950 nobody was going to invest in a trolley line with a destroyed reputation among its service population.

--- On Tue, 3/29/11, Louis Rugani <x779 at webtv.net> wrote:

> From: Louis Rugani <x779 at webtv.net>
> Subject: [milwaukee-electric] National City Lines.
> To: milwaukee-electric at lists.dementia.org
> Date: Tuesday, March 29, 2011, 9:40 AM
> NCL and related operations were very
> secretive and some of its tentacles were very tenuous. We
> know now NCL offered new Cadillacs to governing officials
> who agreed to vote for its agendas ... not all of them, just
> enough to get the majority of votes. They bought influence.
> 
> In Milwaukee, Speedrail was offered a free PCC demonstrator
> which would have saved power, but the offer was quickly
> rescinded without any explanation.? 
> 
> Speedrail examiners gushed with optimism one month who said
> it had high potential ... and the next month, the very same
> officials flip-flopped and said the operation was hopeless
> and should be abandoned.? 
> 
> KMCL had Northland Greyhound and Hammond Motor Coach ties.
> 
> There's lots more.
> 
> =Lou=
> 
> ~~~~~~~~~~ **-=\/=-** ~~~~~~~~~~
> 
> The opposite of bravery is not cowardice, but
> conformity.? ? ???Robert Anthony
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Don L. Leistikow
> Sent: Tuesday, March 29, 2011 2:21 AM
> To: milwaukee-electric at lists.dementia.org
> Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: National City Lines.
> 
> Ken:? I've heard both arguements pro and con, on the
> topic of NCL behind
> the demolition of Milwaukee strretcars, et
> al.???
> 
> I've yet to fand any connection with TM and NCL.? The
> only possible
> connection, albeit remote, would be from of through a
> connection
> stemming from KMCL and its connection by or with Hammond
> Motor Coach.? ? ? ? ? ? ?
> ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?
> ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?
> ? ? ???
> 
> Don L.? ? 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 



From x779 at webtv.net  Tue Mar 29 11:59:02 2011
From: x779 at webtv.net (Louis Rugani)
Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2011 15:59:02 GMT
Subject: [milwaukee-electric] KMCL/National City Lines.
Message-ID: <SNT113-DS4A9D9BD2515D49959CC4598BD0@phx.gbl>

On September 5, 1942 the Kenosha system came under the ownership of the new Kenosha Motor Coach Lines (KMCL) which had been incorporated on June 27, 1942. By 1948, KMCL began purchasing new diesel coaches, which finally supplanted all trolley-bus operations in March of 1952.

The president of Kenosha Motor Coach Lines was Henry P. Bruner (November 16, 1900 - November 30, 1993). Bruner had been a transportation consultant in Indiana, and with personal assets of approximately $16,000 managed to acquire southeastern Wisconsin transit properties valued at $1,242,000. He acquired the Racine city system in 1939 from The Milwaukee Electric Railway and Transport, known as Racine Motor Coach Lines.

On December 27, 1943 KMCL under Bruner purchased the ten and one-half mile Kenosha-Racine segment of the Milwaukee-Racine-Kenosha rapid transit trackage from Milwaukee's Transport Company for $100,000, with a down payment of $22,500 and an annual payment of $7,750 plus an annual right-of-way rental of $6,500. (The book value of the line was $952,388.)

On September 27, 1944 KMCL, with a $75,000 down-payment, an annual payment of $5,000 and a yearly land rental of $5,000, acquired for $300,000 the remaining Racine-Milwaukee line of 24 miles, which included in its appraised book value of $1,720,214 Transport Company cars 1111, 1113, 1118 and 1120, and duplex trains 1180-1181, 1182-1183, 1184-1185 plus line-car D-23. The Transport Company furthermore had guaranteed KMCL a salvage value of $181,000 - $73,000 for the Kenosha-Racine segment and $158,000 for the Racine-Milwaukee portion.

These dealings brought about a $1 million stockholder lawsuit against KMCL and the Transport Company, which charged its officers and directors with profiteering by underbidding the purchases. The court denied the affirmations, a decision later upheld after appeal to the Wisconsin Supreme Court.

On July 18, 1945 the Shore Line Transit Corporation of Indiana quietly purchased all of the outstanding KMCL stock.

On September 27, 1945 another interurban segment, the 28-mile Milwaukee-Port Washington line, was sold to KMCL for $142,000 (a $37,5000 down payment, a $2,000 annual payment and a $3,900 annual land rental.) More rolling stock was included: cars 1139, 1140 and 1141, plus duplex trains 1186-1187, 1196-1197 and 1198-1199 plus line-car D-3 (ex D-23), M-1, 202, F250, F251 and F252, and section cars 40638 and 44037.

In December of 1946, KMCL bought the 23-mile Milwaukee-Waukesha-Hales Corners rapid transit line for $325,000 ($37,500 down and $7,500 a year plus annual land rental of $18,600), with an additional agreement to pay trackage rights to the Transport Company for operations over Milwaukee streets. In this transaction, all the remaining Transport Company rolling stock was tendered to KMCL. (The Transport Company retained all real-estate ownership plus operating rights over the Milwaukee-West Junction trackage.) Throughout all these purchases by KMCL, the operational crews remained employees of the original company.

Following these dealings the Transport Company was able to realize tax deductions of $3,432,676 on the sales of its interurban lines. Bruner's total risk was $169,000.

Bruner told the Milwaukee Journal on May 22nd, 1947 that KMCL "would like to abandon passenger service as soon as possible." His petition to abandon the Kenosha-Milwaukee rapid transit line was granted in stages. The last Kenosha-to-Racine train left at 12:55 a.m. on September 13, 1947 (with Frank Hemmingsten as motorman and Carl Hansen, conductor) and service on the Racine-Milwaukee line ended when the last train left Racine at 10:15 p.m. on December 31, 1947. (Quin Valdes was the last motorman, and Emil Nichol the conductor.) The next day, all replacement bus service by Bruner's subsidiary company Milwaukee & Lake Shore Line was canceled following a 10.8-inch snowfall. The bus line was not a success and was given up within one year.

Repeated attempts to abandon the Milwaukee-Waukesha-Hales Corner lines were denied, and Northland Greyhound acquired all KMCL stock on August 27, 1948. Northland Greyhound's initially stated intent to continue service but soon claimed losses of $20,000 per month and intent to abandon. That line would instead be resold to become The Milwaukee Rapid Transit & Speedrail Co. KMCL, now Kenosha Motor Coach Company, was sold to Lakeshore Transit-Interurban. 
 

=Lou=

~~~~~~~~~~ **-=\/=-** ~~~~~~~~~~

The opposite of bravery is not cowardice, but conformity.       Robert Anthony


-----Original Message-----
From: Scott Greig
Sent: Tuesday, March 22, 2011 2:33 PM
To: milwaukee-electric at lists.dementia.org
Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: National City Lines.

What was NCL's connection to Kenosha Motor Coach Lines?  I know that the North Shore Line was actually a majority owner of KMCL for a time, when it was still an interurban.

--- On Tue, 3/22/11, Louis Rugani <x779 at webtv.net> wrote:

> From: Louis Rugani <x779 at webtv.net>
> Subject: [milwaukee-electric] National City Lines.
> To: milwaukee-electric at lists.dementia.org
> Date: Tuesday, March 22, 2011, 2:25 PM
> "I don't want a tit for tat rail
> argument here."
> 
> The gentleman posted the tit, so I posted the tat.
> 
> "But let's take it off this listserve 
> as a courtesy to the rest of the readers here."
> 
> I didn't consider anything remotely discourteous. My
> investigations show that NCL had its corroding fingers in
> Kenosha Motor Coach Lines, and thereby in Milwaukee. 
> 
> =Lou=
> 
> ~~~~~~~~~~ **-=\/=-** ~~~~~~~~~~
> 
> The opposite of bravery is not cowardice, but
> conformity.? ? ???Robert Anthony
> 
> 
> 
> 






From DLeistikow at webtv.net  Tue Mar 29 12:06:34 2011
From: DLeistikow at webtv.net (Don L. Leistikow)
Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2011 11:06:34 -0500
Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: National City Lines.
In-Reply-To: "Ken and Tracie" <ktjosephson@embarqmail.com>'s message of Tue, 29 Mar 2011 01:20:56 -0700
Message-ID: <26946-4D92038A-977@storefull-3173.bay.webtv.net>

An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed...
Name: not available
Url: http://mailman.dementix.org/pipermail/milwaukee-electric/attachments/20110329/61c0f465/attachment.pl 

From DLeistikow at webtv.net  Tue Mar 29 12:10:08 2011
From: DLeistikow at webtv.net (Don L. Leistikow)
Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2011 11:10:08 -0500
Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: National City Lines.
In-Reply-To: Gary Schnabl <gSchnabl@SWDetroit.com>'s message of Tue, 29 Mar
	2011 05:30:09 -0400
Message-ID: <26942-4D920460-2877@storefull-3173.bay.webtv.net>

Gary S:  I am not aware of any TMER&L employee lists, anywhere.                         

Don



From sbgreig_m1 at yahoo.com  Tue Mar 29 12:11:17 2011
From: sbgreig_m1 at yahoo.com (Scott Greig)
Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2011 09:11:17 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: KMCL/National City Lines.
In-Reply-To: <SNT113-DS4A9D9BD2515D49959CC4598BD0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <175593.11586.qm@web120720.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>

Am I correct that, in addition to the liabilities incurred by the Soldiers Home wreck, Jay Maeder had to agree to assume the outstanding costs of these acquisitions when he bought Greyhound's ownership of the Rapid Transit Line for $110?

--- On Tue, 3/29/11, Louis Rugani <x779 at webtv.net> wrote:

> From: Louis Rugani <x779 at webtv.net>
> Subject: [milwaukee-electric] KMCL/National City Lines.
> To: milwaukee-electric at lists.dementia.org
> Date: Tuesday, March 29, 2011, 10:59 AM
> On September 5, 1942 the Kenosha
> system came under the ownership of the new Kenosha Motor
> Coach Lines (KMCL) which had been incorporated on June 27,
> 1942. By 1948, KMCL began purchasing new diesel coaches,
> which finally supplanted all trolley-bus operations in March
> of 1952.
> 
> The president of Kenosha Motor Coach Lines was Henry P.
> Bruner (November 16, 1900 - November 30, 1993). Bruner had
> been a transportation consultant in Indiana, and with
> personal assets of approximately $16,000 managed to acquire
> southeastern Wisconsin transit properties valued at
> $1,242,000. He acquired the Racine city system in 1939 from
> The Milwaukee Electric Railway and Transport, known as
> Racine Motor Coach Lines.
> 
> On December 27, 1943 KMCL under Bruner purchased the ten
> and one-half mile Kenosha-Racine segment of the
> Milwaukee-Racine-Kenosha rapid transit trackage from
> Milwaukee's Transport Company for $100,000, with a down
> payment of $22,500 and an annual payment of $7,750 plus an
> annual right-of-way rental of $6,500. (The book value of the
> line was $952,388.)
> 
> On September 27, 1944 KMCL, with a $75,000 down-payment, an
> annual payment of $5,000 and a yearly land rental of $5,000,
> acquired for $300,000 the remaining Racine-Milwaukee line of
> 24 miles, which included in its appraised book value of
> $1,720,214 Transport Company cars 1111, 1113, 1118 and 1120,
> and duplex trains 1180-1181, 1182-1183, 1184-1185 plus
> line-car D-23. The Transport Company furthermore had
> guaranteed KMCL a salvage value of $181,000 - $73,000 for
> the Kenosha-Racine segment and $158,000 for the
> Racine-Milwaukee portion.
> 
> These dealings brought about a $1 million stockholder
> lawsuit against KMCL and the Transport Company, which
> charged its officers and directors with profiteering by
> underbidding the purchases. The court denied the
> affirmations, a decision later upheld after appeal to the
> Wisconsin Supreme Court.
> 
> On July 18, 1945 the Shore Line Transit Corporation of
> Indiana quietly purchased all of the outstanding KMCL
> stock.
> 
> On September 27, 1945 another interurban segment, the
> 28-mile Milwaukee-Port Washington line, was sold to KMCL for
> $142,000 (a $37,5000 down payment, a $2,000 annual payment
> and a $3,900 annual land rental.) More rolling stock was
> included: cars 1139, 1140 and 1141, plus duplex trains
> 1186-1187, 1196-1197 and 1198-1199 plus line-car D-3 (ex
> D-23), M-1, 202, F250, F251 and F252, and section cars 40638
> and 44037.
> 
> In December of 1946, KMCL bought the 23-mile
> Milwaukee-Waukesha-Hales Corners rapid transit line for
> $325,000 ($37,500 down and $7,500 a year plus annual land
> rental of $18,600), with an additional agreement to pay
> trackage rights to the Transport Company for operations over
> Milwaukee streets. In this transaction, all the remaining
> Transport Company rolling stock was tendered to KMCL. (The
> Transport Company retained all real-estate ownership plus
> operating rights over the Milwaukee-West Junction trackage.)
> Throughout all these purchases by KMCL, the operational
> crews remained employees of the original company.
> 
> Following these dealings the Transport Company was able to
> realize tax deductions of $3,432,676 on the sales of its
> interurban lines. Bruner's total risk was $169,000.
> 
> Bruner told the Milwaukee Journal on May 22nd, 1947 that
> KMCL "would like to abandon passenger service as soon as
> possible." His petition to abandon the Kenosha-Milwaukee
> rapid transit line was granted in stages. The last
> Kenosha-to-Racine train left at 12:55 a.m. on September 13,
> 1947 (with Frank Hemmingsten as motorman and Carl Hansen,
> conductor) and service on the Racine-Milwaukee line ended
> when the last train left Racine at 10:15 p.m. on December
> 31, 1947. (Quin Valdes was the last motorman, and Emil
> Nichol the conductor.) The next day, all replacement bus
> service by Bruner's subsidiary company Milwaukee & Lake
> Shore Line was canceled following a 10.8-inch snowfall. The
> bus line was not a success and was given up within one
> year.
> 
> Repeated attempts to abandon the Milwaukee-Waukesha-Hales
> Corner lines were denied, and Northland Greyhound acquired
> all KMCL stock on August 27, 1948. Northland Greyhound's
> initially stated intent to continue service but soon claimed
> losses of $20,000 per month and intent to abandon. That line
> would instead be resold to become The Milwaukee Rapid
> Transit & Speedrail Co. KMCL, now Kenosha Motor Coach
> Company, was sold to Lakeshore Transit-Interurban. 
>  
> 
> =Lou=
> 
> ~~~~~~~~~~ **-=\/=-** ~~~~~~~~~~
> 
> The opposite of bravery is not cowardice, but
> conformity.? ? ???Robert Anthony
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Scott Greig
> Sent: Tuesday, March 22, 2011 2:33 PM
> To: milwaukee-electric at lists.dementia.org
> Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: National City Lines.
> 
> What was NCL's connection to Kenosha Motor Coach
> Lines?? I know that the North Shore Line was actually a
> majority owner of KMCL for a time, when it was still an
> interurban.
> 
> --- On Tue, 3/22/11, Louis Rugani <x779 at webtv.net>
> wrote:
> 
> > From: Louis Rugani <x779 at webtv.net>
> > Subject: [milwaukee-electric] National City Lines.
> > To: milwaukee-electric at lists.dementia.org
> > Date: Tuesday, March 22, 2011, 2:25 PM
> > "I don't want a tit for tat rail
> > argument here."
> > 
> > The gentleman posted the tit, so I posted the tat.
> > 
> > "But let's take it off this listserve 
> > as a courtesy to the rest of the readers here."
> > 
> > I didn't consider anything remotely discourteous. My
> > investigations show that NCL had its corroding fingers
> in
> > Kenosha Motor Coach Lines, and thereby in Milwaukee. 
> > 
> > =Lou=
> > 
> > ~~~~~~~~~~ **-=\/=-** ~~~~~~~~~~
> > 
> > The opposite of bravery is not cowardice, but
> > conformity.? ? ???Robert Anthony
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 



From sbgreig_m1 at yahoo.com  Tue Mar 29 12:14:45 2011
From: sbgreig_m1 at yahoo.com (Scott Greig)
Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2011 09:14:45 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: National City Lines.
In-Reply-To: <26946-4D92038A-977@storefull-3173.bay.webtv.net>
Message-ID: <315775.92872.qm@web120705.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>

Car 722 was in the middle of a general overhaul when service was abandoned.  It sat in the shop, unfinished, until it was pulled out and sent to Rondout with the rest of the scrap cars.

--- On Tue, 3/29/11, Don L. Leistikow <DLeistikow at webtv.net> wrote:

> Evidence of intent to continue operations by the NSL, is
> found in the
> Highwood Shops as the 715 was the last car to get a GOH
> late in 1962.
> The NSL? had a surplus of rolling stock to draw from
> so, intention of
> total abandonment, was not evident.? ? ?




From DLeistikow at webtv.net  Tue Mar 29 14:11:21 2011
From: DLeistikow at webtv.net (Don L. Leistikow)
Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2011 13:11:21 -0500
Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: KMCL/National City Lines.
In-Reply-To: Scott Greig <sbgreig_m1@yahoo.com>'s message of Tue, 29 Mar
	2011 09:11:17 -0700 (PDT)
Message-ID: <4521-4D9220C9-4154@storefull-3171.bay.webtv.net>

Group:   As I was working at the GE Apparatus Service Shop, 940 W.
St.Paul, I ate my lunch while visiting with Bill Schwerin... at his last
stand office in a container car body next to the deck behing the then GE
Building.                                

He said that Jay Maeder was so anxious to acquire the remaining linss to
Waukesha and Hales Corners that, he was easily enticed to accept any
arrangement toward purchase.  As it was, Jay did get the Waukesha
operation from Greyhound and he needed the 1031-32 to 1049-50, duplex
trains to handle rush-hour heavy traffic.  The first eight of these
trains were fitted with field tappers, the last two trains didn't get
them.  Why Not?  

Bill Schwerin told me that Jay was too anxious and The Transport Company
took advantage of that.  Bill said that Jay could have had much more,
than what he got.  Jay was so eager, that he accepted the liability of
the Soldier's Home accident.      

Don L .



From sbgreig_m1 at yahoo.com  Tue Mar 29 14:27:02 2011
From: sbgreig_m1 at yahoo.com (Scott Greig)
Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2011 11:27:02 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: KMCL/National City Lines.
In-Reply-To: <4521-4D9220C9-4154@storefull-3171.bay.webtv.net>
Message-ID: <72736.44366.qm@web120706.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>

Well said.  He had made several unsuccessful overtures to purchase the line from Greyhound in the year or two before the Soldiers Home wreck; I can only imagine how quickly the Northland Greyhound top brass must have gone looking for his contact information as the liability estimates started rolling in from the wreck.  And correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't Speedrail initially operating the Local Rapid Transit and Hales Corners routes for the Transport Company, and bringing in a nice chunk of cash for their services, before Maeder bought the two routes from TMER&T?

As to why the last two 1030-series trains never got field tappers, a friend and I have speculated that Cold Spring used surplus field tappers on hand from a group of 500-series streetcars (that had been field tapped for a time), and that they had either run out of the sets of equipment or Maeder could not afford to have all ten cars modified.


--- On Tue, 3/29/11, Don L. Leistikow <DLeistikow at webtv.net> wrote:

> From: Don L. Leistikow <DLeistikow at webtv.net>
> Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: KMCL/National City Lines.
> To: milwaukee-electric at lists.dementia.org
> Date: Tuesday, March 29, 2011, 1:11 PM
> Group:???As I was
> working at the GE Apparatus Service Shop, 940 W.
> St.Paul, I ate my lunch while visiting with Bill
> Schwerin... at his last
> stand office in a container car body next to the deck
> behing the then GE
> Building.? ? ? ? ? ? ?
> ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?
> ? 
> 
> He said that Jay Maeder was so anxious to acquire the
> remaining linss to
> Waukesha and Hales Corners that, he was easily enticed to
> accept any
> arrangement toward purchase.? As it was, Jay did get
> the Waukesha
> operation from Greyhound and he needed the 1031-32 to
> 1049-50, duplex
> trains to handle rush-hour heavy traffic.? The first
> eight of these
> trains were fitted with field tappers, the last two trains
> didn't get
> them.? Why Not?? 
> 
> Bill Schwerin told me that Jay was too anxious and The
> Transport Company
> took advantage of that.? Bill said that Jay could have
> had much more,
> than what he got.? Jay was so eager, that he accepted
> the liability of
> the Soldier's Home accident.? ? ? 
> 
> Don L .
> 
> 
> 



From sunrise at bikethehoan.com  Tue Mar 29 22:55:32 2011
From: sunrise at bikethehoan.com (William Sell)
Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2011 21:55:32 -0500
Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: KMCL/National City Lines.
In-Reply-To: <4521-4D9220C9-4154@storefull-3171.bay.webtv.net>
References: <Scott Greig <sbgreig_m1@yahoo.com>
 <4521-4D9220C9-4154@storefull-3171.bay.webtv.net>
Message-ID: <4d929ba1.8735e50a.2024.ffffb4c7@mx.google.com>

What is a field tapper?
Bill



At 01:11 PM 3/29/2011, you wrote:
>Group:   As I was working at the GE Apparatus Service Shop, 940 W.
>St.Paul, I ate my lunch while visiting with Bill Schwerin... at his last
>stand office in a container car body next to the deck behing the then GE
>Building.
>
>He said that Jay Maeder was so anxious to acquire the remaining linss to
>Waukesha and Hales Corners that, he was easily enticed to accept any
>arrangement toward purchase.  As it was, Jay did get the Waukesha
>operation from Greyhound and he needed the 1031-32 to 1049-50, duplex
>trains to handle rush-hour heavy traffic.  The first eight of these
>trains were fitted with field tappers, the last two trains didn't get
>them.  Why Not?
>
>Bill Schwerin told me that Jay was too anxious and The Transport Company
>took advantage of that.  Bill said that Jay could have had much more,
>than what he got.  Jay was so eager, that he accepted the liability of
>the Soldier's Home accident.
>
>Don L .

**********************************
"So much has been destroyed, I have cast my lot with those who, age 
after age, perversely, with no extraordinary power, reconstitute the 
world." -- Adrienne Rich  



From sbgreig_m1 at yahoo.com  Wed Mar 30 00:05:55 2011
From: sbgreig_m1 at yahoo.com (Scott Greig)
Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2011 21:05:55 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: KMCL/National City Lines.
In-Reply-To: <4d929ba1.8735e50a.2024.ffffb4c7@mx.google.com>
Message-ID: <520756.15801.qm@web120718.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>

Field tapping is a means of increasing motor speed at top output.? Each field coil in the frame is essentially two separate coils wrapped together and wired into two separate series circuits.? In normal operation, the two circuits are working together.? When the field tapper kicks in (usually on the last point of the controller), the smaller of the two coil groups is cut out of the circuit, which reduces the field strength and enables the armature to spin faster.
The electrical resistance of the motor circuit has to be factored into the design, which means that some applicatons--like TMER&L's 1180-series duplexes--actually have a separate field tapper for each motor truck, to reduce any variances or issues in electrical resistance.? This may be why Cold Spring was unable to put tappers on all the 1030s...they may have had to use more than one for each trainset, and may simply have run out of them.

An interesting side effect of installing field tappers on the 1030s, though, was that the trains began having motor failures left and right.? While I don't know the full details of what was going on there, I have heard speculation that field-tapping the 1030s' motors may have caused them to overspeed during sustained running, and either flash over (because electrical commutation was disrupted) or "birdnest" (the armature coils pull out from centrifugal force and cause a big mess).

Hope this helps....

--- On Tue, 3/29/11, William Sell <sunrise at bikethehoan.com> wrote:

From: William Sell <sunrise at bikethehoan.com>
Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: KMCL/National City Lines.
To: milwaukee-electric at lists.dementia.org
Date: Tuesday, March 29, 2011, 9:55 PM

What is a field tapper?
Bill



At 01:11 PM 3/29/2011, you wrote:
>Group:???As I was working at the GE Apparatus Service Shop, 940 W.
>St.Paul, I ate my lunch while visiting with Bill Schwerin... at his last
>stand office in a container car body next to the deck behing the then GE
>Building.
>
>He said that Jay Maeder was so anxious to acquire the remaining linss to
>Waukesha and Hales Corners that, he was easily enticed to accept any
>arrangement toward purchase.? As it was, Jay did get the Waukesha
>operation from Greyhound and he needed the 1031-32 to 1049-50, duplex
>trains to handle rush-hour heavy traffic.? The first eight of these
>trains were fitted with field tappers, the last two trains didn't get
>them.? Why Not?
>
>Bill Schwerin told me that Jay was too anxious and The Transport Company
>took advantage of that.? Bill said that Jay could have had much more,
>than what he got.? Jay was so eager, that he accepted the liability of
>the Soldier's Home accident.
>
>Don L .

**********************************
"So much has been destroyed, I have cast my lot with those who, age 
after age, perversely, with no extraordinary power, reconstitute the 
world." -- Adrienne Rich? 





From sbgreig_m1 at yahoo.com  Wed Mar 30 00:39:16 2011
From: sbgreig_m1 at yahoo.com (Scott Greig)
Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2011 21:39:16 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: KMCL/National City Lines.
In-Reply-To: <520756.15801.qm@web120718.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <166841.38887.qm@web120706.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>

I hope all of that at least made some sense...this is one of those things I can explain in pictures better than in words!
--- On Tue, 3/29/11, Scott Greig <sbgreig_m1 at yahoo.com> wrote:

From: Scott Greig <sbgreig_m1 at yahoo.com>
Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: KMCL/National City Lines.
To: milwaukee-electric at lists.dementia.org
Date: Tuesday, March 29, 2011, 11:05 PM

Field tapping is a means of increasing motor speed at top output.? Each field coil in the frame is essentially two separate coils wrapped together and wired into two separate series circuits.? In normal operation, the two circuits are working together.? When the field tapper kicks in (usually on the last point of the controller), the smaller of the two coil groups is cut out of the circuit, which reduces the field strength and enables the armature to spin faster.
The electrical resistance of the motor circuit has to be factored into the design, which means that some applicatons--like TMER&L's 1180-series duplexes--actually have a separate field tapper for each motor truck, to reduce any variances or issues in electrical resistance.? This may be why Cold Spring was unable to put tappers on all the 1030s...they may have had to use more than one for each trainset, and may simply have run out of them.

An interesting side effect of installing field tappers on the 1030s, though, was that the trains began having motor failures left and right.? While I don't know the full details of what was going on there, I have heard speculation that field-tapping the 1030s' motors may have caused them to overspeed during sustained running, and either flash over (because electrical commutation was disrupted) or "birdnest" (the armature coils pull out from centrifugal force and cause a big mess).

Hope this helps....

--- On Tue, 3/29/11, William Sell <sunrise at bikethehoan.com> wrote:

From: William Sell <sunrise at bikethehoan.com>
Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: KMCL/National City Lines.
To: milwaukee-electric at lists.dementia.org
Date: Tuesday, March 29, 2011, 9:55 PM

What is a field tapper?
Bill



At 01:11 PM 3/29/2011, you wrote:
>Group:???As I was working at the GE Apparatus Service Shop, 940 W.
>St.Paul, I ate my lunch while visiting with Bill Schwerin... at his last
>stand office in a container car body next to the deck behing the then GE
>Building.
>
>He said that Jay Maeder was so anxious to acquire the remaining linss to
>Waukesha and Hales Corners that, he was easily enticed to accept any
>arrangement toward purchase.? As it was, Jay did get the Waukesha
>operation from Greyhound and he needed the 1031-32 to 1049-50, duplex
>trains to handle rush-hour heavy traffic.? The first eight of these
>trains were fitted with field tappers, the last two trains didn't get
>them.? Why Not?
>
>Bill Schwerin told me that Jay was too anxious and The Transport Company
>took advantage of that.? Bill said that Jay could have had much more,
>than what he got.? Jay was so eager, that he accepted the liability of
>the Soldier's Home accident.
>
>Don L .

**********************************
"So much has been destroyed, I have cast my lot with those who, age 
after age, perversely, with no extraordinary power, reconstitute the 
world." -- Adrienne Rich? 







From gSchnabl at SWDetroit.com  Wed Mar 30 00:52:02 2011
From: gSchnabl at SWDetroit.com (Gary Schnabl)
Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2011 00:52:02 -0400
Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: KMCL/National City Lines.
In-Reply-To: <166841.38887.qm@web120706.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
References: <166841.38887.qm@web120706.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <4D92B6F2.7080601@SWDetroit.com>

On 3/30/2011 12:39 AM, Scott Greig wrote:
> I hope all of that at least made some sense...this is one of those things I can explain in pictures better than in words!
> --- On Tue, 3/29/11, Scott Greig<sbgreig_m1 at yahoo.com>  wrote:
There is a free Google book available on the Internet pertaining to 
(older) locomotive equipment designed by GE, which includes field 
tappers. Googling "field tapper" should locate it.


Gary
-- 

Gary Schnabl
Southwest Detroit, two miles NORTH! of Canada--Windsor, that is...

Technical Editor forum <http://TechnicalEditor.LivernoisYard.com/phpBB3/>





From DLeistikow at webtv.net  Wed Mar 30 01:13:50 2011
From: DLeistikow at webtv.net (Don L. Leistikow)
Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2011 00:13:50 -0500
Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: KMCL/National City Lines.
In-Reply-To: William Sell <sunrise@bikethehoan.com>'s message of Tue, 29
	Mar 2011 21:55:32 -0500
Message-ID: <4522-4D92BC0E-3682@storefull-3171.bay.webtv.net>

Scott Grieg's evaluation which followed  your question, was explained
from an electrical engineering standpoint.               

Joining Speedrail in 1950, I became aware of this phenomenon in
conversations with their Shop personnel.  The conclusion is that
electric motors must be used.  Allowing them to stand around without
use, allows dampness to invade the inner works.   Coils and Insulation
will suffer as dampness  settles in. Seasons change, from below zero
tempertures in winter to, temperatures that reach over 100 degrees in
summer Condensation, is the culprit    

Blown coils, is the result.                           

Unlike the 60 and 300 class cars, the now 31-32 to 49-50 duplexes were
run only during the Rush-hours.  The single cars were being operated,
almost 24/7. really, about 20/7.                                               

Wen I hired out, I had just missed a class of new employees.   They put
me to work in the Central Station back Shop fpr sp,e three weeks, so I
acquierd quite a bit of practical knowledge, on how to keep them
rolling/.                                                     

The best thing to do with an electric motor is;   Use It !                                               

Don L.    



From sbgreig_m1 at yahoo.com  Wed Mar 30 07:47:51 2011
From: sbgreig_m1 at yahoo.com (Scott Greig)
Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2011 04:47:51 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: KMCL/National City Lines.
In-Reply-To: <4522-4D92BC0E-3682@storefull-3171.bay.webtv.net>
Message-ID: <233686.30077.qm@web120711.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>

Good point, one I should have mentioned.? "Sit-itis" also takes a toll...and the 1030s had been "sitting" for a while before TMER&T sold them to Speedrail.
--- On Wed, 3/30/11, Don L. Leistikow <DLeistikow at webtv.net> wrote:

From: Don L. Leistikow <DLeistikow at webtv.net>
Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: KMCL/National City Lines.
To: milwaukee-electric at lists.dementia.org
Cc: emory1522 at wi.rr.com
Date: Wednesday, March 30, 2011, 12:13 AM

Scott Grieg's evaluation which followed? your question, was explained
from an electrical engineering standpoint.? ? ? ? ? ? ???

Joining Speedrail in 1950, I became aware of this phenomenon in
conversations with their Shop personnel.? The conclusion is that
electric motors must be used.? Allowing them to stand around without
use, allows dampness to invade the inner works.???Coils and Insulation
will suffer as dampness? settles in. Seasons change, from below zero
tempertures in winter to, temperatures that reach over 100 degrees in
summer Condensation, is the culprit? ? 

Blown coils, is the result.? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ???

Unlike the 60 and 300 class cars, the now 31-32 to 49-50 duplexes were
run only during the Rush-hours.? The single cars were being operated,
almost 24/7. really, about 20/7.? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ???

Wen I hired out, I had just missed a class of new employees.???They put
me to work in the Central Station back Shop fpr sp,e three weeks, so I
acquierd quite a bit of practical knowledge, on how to keep them
rolling/.? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ???

The best thing to do with an electric motor is;???Use It !? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ???

Don L.? ? 





From sunrise at bikethehoan.com  Wed Mar 30 09:57:56 2011
From: sunrise at bikethehoan.com (William Sell)
Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2011 08:57:56 -0500
Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: KMCL/National City Lines.
In-Reply-To: <166841.38887.qm@web120706.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
References: <520756.15801.qm@web120718.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
 <166841.38887.qm@web120706.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <4d9336df.8735e50a.292f.04e1@mx.google.com>

Yes, it helps.  There are gaps in my electrical intelligence (motors 
for one), but I have some background and get the general idea.

Thanks
Bill




At 11:39 PM 3/29/2011, Scott Greig wrote:
>I hope all of that at least made some sense...this is one of those 
>things I can explain in pictures better than in words!
>--- On Tue, 3/29/11, Scott Greig <sbgreig_m1 at yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>From: Scott Greig <sbgreig_m1 at yahoo.com>
>Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: KMCL/National City Lines.
>To: milwaukee-electric at lists.dementia.org
>Date: Tuesday, March 29, 2011, 11:05 PM
>
>Field tapping is a means of increasing motor speed at top 
>output.  Each field coil in the frame is essentially two separate 
>coils wrapped together and wired into two separate series 
>circuits.  In normal operation, the two circuits are working 
>together.  When the field tapper kicks in (usually on the last point 
>of the controller), the smaller of the two coil groups is cut out of 
>the circuit, which reduces the field strength and enables the 
>armature to spin faster.
>The electrical resistance of the motor circuit has to be factored 
>into the design, which means that some applicatons--like TMER&L's 
>1180-series duplexes--actually have a separate field tapper for each 
>motor truck, to reduce any variances or issues in electrical 
>resistance.  This may be why Cold Spring was unable to put tappers 
>on all the 1030s...they may have had to use more than one for each 
>trainset, and may simply have run out of them.
>
>An interesting side effect of installing field tappers on the 1030s, 
>though, was that the trains began having motor failures left and 
>right.  While I don't know the full details of what was going on 
>there, I have heard speculation that field-tapping the 1030s' motors 
>may have caused them to overspeed during sustained running, and 
>either flash over (because electrical commutation was disrupted) or 
>"birdnest" (the armature coils pull out from centrifugal force and 
>cause a big mess).
>
>Hope this helps....
>
>--- On Tue, 3/29/11, William Sell <sunrise at bikethehoan.com> wrote:
>
>From: William Sell <sunrise at bikethehoan.com>
>Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: KMCL/National City Lines.
>To: milwaukee-electric at lists.dementia.org
>Date: Tuesday, March 29, 2011, 9:55 PM
>
>What is a field tapper?
>Bill
>
>
>
>At 01:11 PM 3/29/2011, you wrote:
> >Group:   As I was working at the GE Apparatus Service Shop, 940 W.
> >St.Paul, I ate my lunch while visiting with Bill Schwerin... at his last
> >stand office in a container car body next to the deck behing the then GE
> >Building.
> >
> >He said that Jay Maeder was so anxious to acquire the remaining linss to
> >Waukesha and Hales Corners that, he was easily enticed to accept any
> >arrangement toward purchase.  As it was, Jay did get the Waukesha
> >operation from Greyhound and he needed the 1031-32 to 1049-50, duplex
> >trains to handle rush-hour heavy traffic.  The first eight of these
> >trains were fitted with field tappers, the last two trains didn't get
> >them.  Why Not?
> >
> >Bill Schwerin told me that Jay was too anxious and The Transport Company
> >took advantage of that.  Bill said that Jay could have had much more,
> >than what he got.  Jay was so eager, that he accepted the liability of
> >the Soldier's Home accident.
> >
> >Don L .
>
>**********************************
>"So much has been destroyed, I have cast my lot with those who, age
>after age, perversely, with no extraordinary power, reconstitute the
>world." -- Adrienne Rich

**********************************
"So much has been destroyed, I have cast my lot with those who, age 
after age, perversely, with no extraordinary power, reconstitute the 
world." -- Adrienne Rich  



From DLeistikow at webtv.net  Wed Mar 30 11:22:55 2011
From: DLeistikow at webtv.net (Don L. Leistikow)
Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2011 10:22:55 -0500
Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: KMCL/National City Lines.
In-Reply-To: Scott Greig <sbgreig_m1@yahoo.com>'s message of Wed, 30 Mar
	2011 04:47:51 -0700 (PDT)
Message-ID: <26942-4D934ACF-4344@storefull-3173.bay.webtv.net>

Group:  I should have added that a Field Tapper operates like an
overdrive in an automobile                                                

Don L.    



From yance at oldmilwaukee.net  Wed Mar 30 14:51:29 2011
From: yance at oldmilwaukee.net (Y Marti)
Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2011 14:51:29 -0400
Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: National City Lines.
In-Reply-To: <26946-4D92038A-977@storefull-3173.bay.webtv.net>
References: <26946-4D92038A-977@storefull-3173.bay.webtv.net>
Message-ID: <20110330145129.88516y85n1pb470g@horde.oldmilwaukee.net>

I have a sketch which shows this plan:

http://oldmilwaukee.net/forum/blog.php/?p=246

The City Engineer at that time would have been Joseph P. Schwada.

Yance M.

Quoting "Don L. Leistikow" <DLeistikow at webtv.net>:

> Ken and list:   The NSL was thrifty about spending and did have a
> bankroll from WW 2 income.  Although they did give up the Shore Line
> Rorte, the C&NW was running their own suburban service so duplication
> was not practical.
> Henry Bykirk and I had many conversations out at East Troy as he was a
> regular, dependable motorman every Saturday in season.
>
> In Milwaukee, the City Engineer (name?)  was the planner who, wanted  to
> put the NSL in the median of the new freeway from the southside into
> downtown.  When he retired, he gave me his files on this subject.
>
> Anyway, passenger traffic was waning and the multiple car trains on the
> north end, dwindled to only one car, partly filled, other than the
> rush-hour.  The Susquahanna investment group, bought into the NSL and,
> gaining control, drained the bankroll, investing in other ventures or
> simply distributing the excess among its stockholders.
>
>
> Evidence of intent to continue operations by the NSL, is found in the
> Highwood Shops as the 715 was the last car to get a GOH late in 1962.
> The NSL  had a surplus of rolling stock to draw from so, intention of
> total abandonment, was not evident.
>
> None the less, the squeese was on as the Milwaukee Division revenues
> dipped and patronage dropped.  We must remember that the NSL was still
> operating effiecntly in northern Illinois... deopping and adding a car
> at Edison Court.  So, in all likelyhood, operations in Illinois were
> still profitable and should never have been abandoned.
>
> The CTA picked up the slack and began operations from Howard to
> Dempster.  Actually, it was necessary as their Shops were up there but,
> they could have continued fruther north to Edison Court and Mundelein.
>
> The hang-up on the Milwaukee Northern, was its street running from the
> Fiebrantz Car Station to downtown. Not to mention that patronage was
> waning, anyway.  The longrange plans were to put the service onto the
> MILW line that came downtown known as the Beer Line.  That would have
> brought the service into 3rd street, at Juneau.
>
> Today, yes... but now on the former C&NW prow from the lakefront, north,
> connecting with the Lakeshore line in Glendale, or..... attaining the
> original MN line by connecting with the MILW, also in Glendale... two
> possibilities.
>
> Don
>
>


From gSchnabl at SWDetroit.com  Thu Mar 31 00:49:02 2011
From: gSchnabl at SWDetroit.com (Gary Schnabl)
Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2011 00:49:02 -0400
Subject: [milwaukee-electric] 1910 Sanborn
Message-ID: <4D9407BE.9080009@SWDetroit.com>

Ken,
Page 2 of the 1910 Sanborn map ( 
http://www4.uwm.edu/libraries/digilib/sanborn/pdf/Milwaukee1910Volume8.pdf 
) pretty much shows why Capitol Drive (Lake) did not continue west of 
27th until Mud (Lincoln) Creek was rerouted. The creek was wider and 
meandered far more than I had previously thought. Perhaps, you have used 
this map before. It also shows the undeveloped area where my 
grandparents' 30-acre truck farm was when they acquired it just before 1910.

I did not know of the existence of North Milwaukee before, though. I 
wondered why many of the stores there seemed so much older than the real 
estate just a few blocks to the south, where I lived starting in 1946 
(42nd and Capitol).

Gary
-- 

Gary Schnabl
Southwest Detroit, two miles NORTH! of Canada--Windsor, that is...

Technical Editor forum <http://TechnicalEditor.LivernoisYard.com/phpBB3/>





From ktjosephson at embarqmail.com  Thu Mar 31 10:55:30 2011
From: ktjosephson at embarqmail.com (Ken and Tracie)
Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2011 07:55:30 -0700
Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: 1910 Sanborn
References: <4D9407BE.9080009@SWDetroit.com>
Message-ID: <26C9F29E4855407B80F42B676B08A91A@KTJosephson>

Thanks, Gary. I have seen this before. I'd also like to see the northwestern 
area, showing the towns of Granville, Somerville, Wauwatosa, Granville 
Center, etc.I have a USGS map from 1916 showing that. I would like to see 
that map with a street network overlay.

What is now Capitol Drive was extended over Mud (Lincoln) Creek with two 
bridges. I have an early 1930s map showing this. Also shown in my map is a 
creek or drainage channel, parallel to the east side of N. 35th Street, 
between the roadway and the A.O. Smith property line. It emptied into Mud 
Creel just south of Capitol Drive.

So many independent towns and villages lost through annexation...Town of 
Lake, Painesville, Somerville (Sommerville?), Granville, North Milwaukee, 
Town of Wauwatosa, etc.

And so many waterways rerouted and/or placed in tunnels.

K.



----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Gary Schnabl" <gSchnabl at SWDetroit.com>
To: <milwaukee-electric at lists.dementia.org>
Sent: Wednesday, March 30, 2011 9:49 PM
Subject: [milwaukee-electric] 1910 Sanborn


> Ken,
> Page 2 of the 1910 Sanborn map (
> http://www4.uwm.edu/libraries/digilib/sanborn/pdf/Milwaukee1910Volume8.pdf
> ) pretty much shows why Capitol Drive (Lake) did not continue west of
> 27th until Mud (Lincoln) Creek was rerouted. The creek was wider and
> meandered far more than I had previously thought. Perhaps, you have used
> this map before. It also shows the undeveloped area where my
> grandparents' 30-acre truck farm was when they acquired it just before 
> 1910.
>
> I did not know of the existence of North Milwaukee before, though. I
> wondered why many of the stores there seemed so much older than the real
> estate just a few blocks to the south, where I lived starting in 1946
> (42nd and Capitol).
>
> Gary
> -- 
>
> Gary Schnabl
> Southwest Detroit, two miles NORTH! of Canada--Windsor, that is...
>
> Technical Editor forum <http://TechnicalEditor.LivernoisYard.com/phpBB3/>
>
>
>
> 



From gSchnabl at SWDetroit.com  Thu Mar 31 16:28:22 2011
From: gSchnabl at SWDetroit.com (Gary Schnabl)
Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2011 16:28:22 -0400
Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: 1910 Sanborn
In-Reply-To: <26C9F29E4855407B80F42B676B08A91A@KTJosephson>
References: <4D9407BE.9080009@SWDetroit.com> <26C9F29E4855407B80F42B676B08A91A@KTJosephson>
Message-ID: <4D94E3E6.2090200@SWDetroit.com>

There are a few differences in Mud Creek between the 1910 Sanborn and 
the 1930 Casper maps. The Sanborn shows Mud Creek crossing Lake 
(Capitol) at 37th, but the Casper places it just a bit east of 36th, 
about where Roosevelt starts up again. My school--St. John de Nepomuc at 
37th and Keefe had a flat playground, causing a difference in elevation 
at that corner of a few feet. The same occurred at the NE corner of 
Townsend School at 42nd and Townsend. IOW, Burleigh was a few feet 
higher than Keefe, but the stretch north of Keefe towards Capitol was 
pretty much flat. (My parents lived atop the Subcontinental Divide at 
Pilgrim Road (15600 west) and Burleigh Place in Brookfield. At Pilgrim 
Road, it crested at Burleigh Place (3300 north), and at Calhoun Road, it 
crested at Capitol.)
AO Smith must have filled in their 160 acres near 35th because I never 
noticed any differences in elevation there during the 1950s, as my 
school was only two blocks away. The rain drainage coming from the south 
at Townsend originally must have ponded at AO Smith, and drainage must 
have been installed along 35th in order to get rid of that water there. 
(Back during the Cold War, AO Smith was one of Milwaukee's major nuke 
targets, according to the civil defense folks. Pleasant memories of my 
school being right smack at ground zero...)

Hopkins seems to have originally crossed the train tracks prior to the 
railroad yard being built north of Capitol at 33rd. In any event, that 
area around 35th and Capitol must have been somewhat of a driving 
nuisance before Mud Creek was rerouted to Congress. My interest in Mud 
Creek was in determining whether the original creek ever crossed my 
grandparents' 30 acres, and the best I came up with is that it did--for 
a very tiny segment at 42nd, just a bit to the south of Congress. My 
father would know, but he died in 1990--so, no help there.


Gary

On 3/31/2011 10:55 AM, Ken and Tracie wrote:
> Thanks, Gary. I have seen this before. I'd also like to see the northwestern
> area, showing the towns of Granville, Somerville, Wauwatosa, Granville
> Center, etc.I have a USGS map from 1916 showing that. I would like to see
> that map with a street network overlay.
>
> What is now Capitol Drive was extended over Mud (Lincoln) Creek with two
> bridges. I have an early 1930s map showing this. Also shown in my map is a
> creek or drainage channel, parallel to the east side of N. 35th Street,
> between the roadway and the A.O. Smith property line. It emptied into Mud
> Creel just south of Capitol Drive.
>
> So many independent towns and villages lost through annexation...Town of
> Lake, Painesville, Somerville (Sommerville?), Granville, North Milwaukee,
> Town of Wauwatosa, etc.
>
> And so many waterways rerouted and/or placed in tunnels.
>
> K.


-- 

Gary Schnabl
Southwest Detroit, two miles NORTH! of Canada--Windsor, that is...

Technical Editor forum <http://TechnicalEditor.LivernoisYard.com/phpBB3/>