[milwaukee-electric] National City Lines.

[Louis Rugani]

-----Original Message-----
From: William Sell
Sent: Saturday, March 19, 2011 11:37 PM
To: milwaukee-electric at lists.dementia.org
Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: National City Lines convictions.

I don't want a tit for tat rail argument here. I have no admiration 
for Randal O'Toole's "facts" and his schilling for the oil industry, 
but I will refer anyone interested to a book written by two very 
conservative contemporaries: Paul Weyrich and William Lind, "Moving 
Minds" - it is an appeal to fact for the benefit of fellow 
conservatives to get on board and support rail. I will let Lind and 
Weyrich speak to the issue.

I am, however, somewhat versed and would not mind an exchange of 
views with anyone on this issue. But let's take it off this listserve 
as a courtesy to the rest of the readers here.  At all times, anyone 
can get in touch with me to find out if there is a discussion they can join.

Bill Sell






At 02:12 PM 3/19/2011, Louis Rugani wrote:
>Gary Schnabl writes:
>
>"Are there those still blaming GM et al. for the demise of 
>traction?  ... But, come on! How serious could the conspiracy have 
>been if the penalty meted out was $5000, plus $1 for every convicted person?"
>
>I stated facts. Those convictions followed lengthy court 
>battles.  The tiny fines show the depth of the conspiracy. GM spent 
>years and millions trying to overturn those convictions and its 
>$5,000 fine. That tells me a lot.
>
>"Traction was doomed to failure as their cities became suburbanized."
>
>Traction is back and getting bigger each year.
>
>And nothing personal, Mr. Schnabl, but your following arguments 
>below are fallacious and right out of the current anti-railers' 
>songbook as sung by Randal OToole, Wendell Cox and Tom Rubin:
>
>"Traction may be cheaper to run, but their capital construction 
>costs are very high per mile. Buses are not serial, meaning that if 
>a bus breaks down enroute, the system does not. And buses can easily 
>be rerouted in
>case a major (or minor) fire or traffic situation ties up the ROW 
>for hours or days. There can be no real denying that. Plus, most or 
>all of those traction systems were broke--or getting there. Time to let it go."
>
>Traction advocates, such as those who populate this list, will never 
>"let it go", lest it happen again.
>
>=Lou=
>
>~~~~~~~~~~ **-=\/=-** ~~~~~~~~~~
>
>The opposite of bravery is not cowardice, but conformity.      Robert Anthony
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Gary Schnabl
>Sent: Saturday, March 19, 2011 1:31 PM
>To: milwaukee-electric at lists.dementia.org
>Subject: [milwaukee-electric] Re: 1949: National City Lines 
>conspirators are convicted.
>
>On 3/19/2011 1:59 PM, Louis Rugani wrote:
> > On this day in 1949: National City Lines conspirators are convicted.
> >
> > Location: United States Federal Court
> >
> > Following a nearly two-year court process, on March 19th, 1949 
> nine American corporations and seven individuals were  convicted 
> under federal charges of one count each of conspiring to monopolize 
> part of American trade and commerce: National City Lines (and E. 
> Roy Fitzgerald&  Foster C. Beamsley) American City Lines, Pacific 
> City Lines, General Motors (and H.C. Grossman)Standard Oil of 
> California (and Henry C. Judd), Federal Engineering Corporation, 
> Phillips Petroleum Corporation (and A.M. Hughes&  Frank B. 
> Stradley), Firestone Tire and Rubber Company (and L.R. Jackson), 
> and Mack (Truck) Mfg.
>
>Are there those still blaming GM et al. for the demise of traction?
>[BTW, although GM's HQ is but five miles east from here, I have no love
>for the company and wish it to ultimately fail due to its obaminations.]
>But, come on! How serious could the conspiracy have been if the penalty
>meted out was $5000, plus $1 for every convicted person?
>
>Traction was doomed to failure as their cities became suburbanized.
>Traction may be cheaper to run, but their capital construction costs are
>very high per mile. Buses are not serial, meaning that if a bus breaks
>down enroute, the system does not. And buses can easily be rerouted in
>case a major (or minor) fire or traffic situation ties up the ROW for
>hours or days. There can be no real denying that. Plus, most or all of
>those traction systems were broke--or getting there.
>
>Time to let it go.
>--
>
>Gary Schnabl
>Southwest Detroit, two miles NORTH! of Canada--Windsor, that is...
>
>Technical Editor forum <http://TechnicalEditor.LivernoisYard.com/phpBB3/>

**********************************
"So much has been destroyed, I have cast my lot with those who, age 
after age, perversely, with no extraordinary power, reconstitute the 
world." -- Adrienne Rich