PCC speed

[Vigrass, Bill]

I would like to add my experience with PCC-type 6000 series ex Chicago L
cars on the Norristown High Speed Line of SEPTA.   I was project management
oversight consultant for the Federal Transit Administration on the
"Modernization of the Norristown High Speed Line" Sept. 1988-1993, a $163
million effort.  I began work on it shortly after the L cars replaced "worn
out" Bullet cars and 160 type cars.  I rode at least once a week, often 2 or
3 times, to meetings at various work sites.  SEPTA replaced four foot
bridges over the line and either rebuilt or replaced every bridge that
carried tracks over roads or waterways (and in one case, over an old cow
path).  Included also was the Norristown Transportation Center, replacing
the old station.  That was a three year effort itself.  

I would usually catch the 9:00am Express from 69th St. Terminal, a two-car
married-pair that usually had nearly a seated load.  Most of the passengers
were destined to employment along the line, many to Bryn Mawr Hospital, some
to Wyeth Labs at Radnor, and a few to the end of the line to Norristown.  I
would return whenever my business was done, usually in the afternoon on a
local.  As I recall, the 9am express was the last, or one of the last,
expresses.

Leaving 69th St., track was level to the shop at 72nd St., then upgrade on
about a 3% grade to Parkview station, mile 0.91.   I would ride where I
could see the speedometer.  I recall vividly that the train would peak at 24
mph uphill.  In other places, we would roll down 3% grades and around curves
superelevated for 80 mph Bullet cars, so the motorman just kept the Cineston
on the peg, wide open.  Top speed that I ever saw was 51 mph, downhill, and
at that speed, most cars vibrated badly, unless the drive train was
perfectly balanced.  Usually it was a constant thrumming under the floor. It
made a good bass drum! 

I believe that the Norristown line gave the PCC-type car the best possible
location to perform, and they did to the best of their capabilities.

Most of the time, speeds were moderate, 35-45 mph.  

I do not think it possible that a PCC car would have ever attained 60 mph,
and certainly not the speeds shown on the report about Ardmore Blvd.

Yours for progress, Bill Vigrass.  12/08/99


-----Original Message-----
From: Jim Holland [mailto:pghpcc at pacbell.net]
Sent: Wednesday, December 01, 1999 6:11 AM
To: pittsburgh-railways at dementia.org
Subject: Re: PCC speed


Greetings!

	Do you have any pictures of this *young lady?*  What's her status
today
- is she unattached and available?  From the spell she held over you,
she has probably discovered the fountain of youth and will eternally be
a knock-out!  I have been lost *head-over-heels* over some women, but I
absolutely, totally, 100% envy the experience you had with this
woman!!!!!!!!!!!!!

	As you mentioned, Ardmore inbound is all uphill.  I am sorry, but
there
is absolutely  N-O  W-A-Y  that car was even doing 45 mph when it
crested the hill.

	Fred Schneider, on this list, has written a couple excellent books
about PCCs (*PCC - The Car That Fought Back* details construction,
mechanics, and electrical systems for the PCC and covers speed; *PCC
>From Coast to Coast* is a photo essay of PCCs in North America with some
photos from overseas.)  Please check the first book concerning operating
characteristics - the balancing speed for a PCC on the level is 42 mph
but it might take a couple miles to achieve that.  The electrical
control in those days did not compensate for loads uphill so the car
slowed down - 25-30 mph TOPS up a 6% grade.

	Russell Jackson, who provided the posts today about PCC speed, is
employed by Septa, I believe.  At any rate, he has extensive hands-on
experience in transit with three generations of vehicles - pre-PCC
equipment, PCCs, and modern LRVs.  Certainly the style and tone of his
letter reveal that he is writing from a well educated experience with
this equipment.

	Did you  e-v-e-r  ride PRCo streetcars?  Did you ever ride the
Ardmore
line?  Are you aware of how the tracks swerved around the streetcar
islands on this center-of-the-highway prw on Ardmore Blvd?

	Bill Vigrass, who forwarded my comments about PCC speed to Russell
Jackson, is also on this list.  He is a native of Cleveland and in 1946
he went to Pittsburgh to ride PRCo and West Penn.  This ride was written
up in the Sept-Oct 1984 ERA *Headlights.*  I quote:::::::
	". . . our PCC car entered Ardmore Boulevard . . . We had heard
about
this line, and anticipated a rapid transit type ride.  However, we were
disappointed.  The track was awful, and at each stop, the track jogged
to provide room for a safety zone for waiting passengers.  This outbound
car in the morning peak made few stops, but swung and swayed through
each of these jogs.  because of the poor track, the motorman often had
to slow down.  The ride was anything but comfortable."

	Ira Swett was in the Army at the same time and rode the Charleroi
interurban.  He published *Interurban Newsletters* (INL - which later
became Interurbans Press, a big publisher of Traction books and the
publisher of the two PCC books by Schneider.)  Swett said the same
thinhg about PRCo track - it was abysmal.

	I have always said that the worst track here in San Francisco was
PRCo
absolute premium best track!  And PRCo was on its downhill slide at this
point - even in 1946.  While new equipment arrived in 1949, the war-time
patronage which prompted the order of these PCCs had already evaporated
when they were placed into service.  PRCo did nothing to upgrade the prw
on the system beyond routine maintenance.

	I am a native of Pgh.; PRCo is *my* system and there is nothing to
compare with it, but I have to face the facts - the track was terrible
at best and there is NO PCC in Pittsburgh that ever travelled over 50
mph - probably not even the 1700 series car that lost its brakes inbound
in the Mt. Washington tunnel some 10-20 years ago!

	Dave - if you remember this young lady's name, will you please email
me
privately!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Dave Rotthoff wrote:

> When I was a senior in Wilkinsburg High ['57-'58 school year],
> I had occasion to drive a young lady home
> very late one night from a play rehearsal. . . I was heading
> back inbound on the Ardmore. . . I caught up with the trolley past the
west end 
> of Forest Hills . . . When we crested the hill leading down toward where
> the private right-of-way ended, that PCC was doing between 85 and 90 MPH.
I
> had visions of it not being able to slow down to make the left turn
leading in
> toward Swissvale Ave., but it did.

James B. Holland
------- -- ---------
        Pittsburgh Railways Company (PRCo), June of 1949 -- June of 1953
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