Where oh where are the switch points?
Jim Holland
pghpcc at pacbell.net
Sun Apr 30 17:59:19 EDT 2000
Greetings!
There are exceptions to every rule - that is a given - but I think the
*general--rule* concerning switch points is to place them on the inside
rail of a turn. Some background information first.
On typical street railway tangent girder rail, the rail head sits
higher than any guard portion of the rail. On girder rail for sharper
turns, the guard portion is aprox. 3/8-inches higher than the rail
head. This higher-guard is placed on the inside rail; PRCo also placed
a higher guard on *both* rails but this seems to be the exception in the
industry.
For in street frogs and mates, the flangeway raises through the center
to allow the wheel to ride thru on the flange. The advantage is to
prevent chipping of the wheel tread when bouncing across the flangeway.
When the flangeway is worn by the flange it is simple to repair - send
the welder out and fill it with welding rod. PRCo did this frequently.
I also mentioned in a previous post (included here) that the point is
raised to provide a guard for the wheel when entering the turn and this
matches the raised guard of the girder rail. This is the
**--->>biggest--reason<<---** why the point is on the inside rail of a
turn -- it provides guard action which effectifely doubles the
guarding action against the flange with the raised portion and also
guides the other wheel thru the mate.
PRCo is most effective in using the exceptions. At the ones I listed
at the Charleroi Car House (included) the turnouts are overlapped
necessitating a frog thru a point. Since that is not possible, a mate
is put on the inside rail and a frog can be cut thru that.
On Smithfield to and from the north direction and west Carson (32 line)
the point is in the outside rail. At one time an x-over existed on the
embankment at the south end of the Smithfield St Bridge so 32-line cars
could crossover to get to their route; The turns from the tunnel to W.
Carson did not exist until about the mid 40s. With only a couple cars
making the turn from S. Smithfield to W. Carson, there is much much much
less wear on the point with the point in the outside rail. The same
holds for Tioga outbound on the 76-line at Tioga loop. A 76-car could
be short-turned here, outbound to inbound, if running late. How often
did that happen? Putting the point in the outside rail made for much
less wear on the point itself. Thus, the two most notable exceptions to
inside rail points are::: 1)--Mother-Necessity (always a
woman--probably safe to say that here!); 2)--Seldomly used turnouts to
reduce wear and maintenance.
**--->>From my listing on Friday, I showed 81 inside-rail-points on
PRCo and only 12 outside rail.<<---** The number is probably much much
much higher in favor of inside rail. Places that come to mind for
inside-rail-points *from memory*
2-North end of Smithfield Bridge.
2-Smithfield to Fourth
1-Smithfield--7th
1-Smithfield to Liberty.
4-Grant to Liberty
1-Liberty to Wood
1-Dawn Jct outbound.
3-Clearview Loop
Many many many others.
Outside rail additions to my list below:: another at Craft from
Forbes. I am sure there are others -- seldomly used turnouts where
maintenance dictates outside rail.
When I was at San Francisco Metro, the majority of the points in the
yard were on the inside rail. I'll check to see if any are outside
rail. The rest of the SF Muni system is inside points:
11-San Jose from the Geneva Barn to Ocean
05-Church & 30th
02-xover near Church-29th
02-xover near Church-22nd
06-thru-wye Church-17th
02-Church-Market
08-Church Duboce
02-xover Church-Duboce
02-xover Duboce-Church
02-xover Carl-Hillway
02-x-over Judah-20th
03-wye Judah-30th
02-xover Judah-36th
01-Judah Ocean Beach - changed to dual point.
03-Ocean to enter-exit Metro
06-(Phelan loop - all removed ca 1990)
02-St. Francis Circle
02-xover St. Francis Circle
06-W. Portal
02-xover Ulloa W. Portal
02-xover Taraval 23rd
03-wye Taraval-35th
02-xover Sunset
05-Taraval-46th
01-Taraval-48th
02-Market Duboce
02-xover Market Duboce
02-Market-11th
02-xover 11th Market
02-xover Market-5th
01-Market-1st
01-East Bay Terminal
01-Market Fremont
05-Steuart btwn Market Mission
06-Embarcadero thru wye near Market
02-Pier 39 Embarcadero
Fred W. Schneider III wrote:
> The more I thought about that, the more it seemed like a good learning
> experience for me. . .
> First of all, I called Ed Miller in Pittston, who labored as a trolley
> motorman in Washington DC from 1948 to 1952. Ed was very emphatic that
> switch points are always on the inside of a curve. . .
> Next I called Russ Jackson. . . He may be in car design, but he
> knows track geometry, wiring, overhead, substations ... a remarkable
> person. He has the only 100 gig brain I ever met! . . .
> Russ admitted that he did not have all the
> A.E.R.A. standards, if indeed there were any in this specific area. He
> did remember, however, that most "for whatever reason" (he thought 85%)
> of street switches had the moveable point on the inside of the curve.
> He did acknowledge that there were exceptions, . . .
> Russ did note, however, that placing them on the inside on curving
> ladder tracks into car houses could require very short points (2 feet
> long for example) and result in more derailments, and that outside
> points would have been better in those instances. See the new Elmwood
> Shop in Philly and Muni Metro Center as examples.
The yard turnouts are inside rail points; will double check because
there are possible exceptions.
> All of the girder-rail switches in the Baltimore Streetcar Museum (a
> total of seven) have the point on the inside radius. Ray Cannon, who
> heads up our track department at BSM, claims inside was the Baltimore
> Standard.
> Next I started looking at pictures ...
> Out of those 28, there were 7 with points on the outside of the curve
> and 21 on the inside radius.
> Number Inside
> Number Outside
> Washington
> 6 1
> Pittsburgh
> 7 4
> Johnstown
> 2 1
> Allentown-Bethlehem
> 1 1
> Chester - Wilmington
> 3 3
> What you see here is proof that there may not have ever been an industry
> standard but there was a preference.
> By the way, German practice is to use two moveable points ... really
> great when you want to train and go thundering through an intersection
> at full bore.
> So I rest my case, that there is, in fact, no case.
> Have a great Monday.
Subject: Re: The Drake Photos
Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2000 14:35:40 -0700
From: Jim Holland <pghpcc at pacbell.net>
Organization: Holland Electric Railway Operation
To: pittsburgh-railways at dementia.org
References: 1 , 2
Greetings!
Fred W. Schneider III wrote:
> At Arden, the two electric switches (one at Arden and the other for the barn
> lead) have the moveable points on the inside of the curve. The switch from 1 to
> 2 track is inside. How many thousand pictures should I look at to develop a
> consensus?
How about ten -- ten-thousand, that is! You are retired now
and need
something to do to keep out of the other boss' hair, right?!?!<VBG> -
[just teasing!]
But I shall pick up the gauntlet and use sources others might
have so
verification might be made. *PCC The Car That Fought Back* has many Pgh
photos but none that show turnouts. I'll use *PCC From Coast to Coast*
(PCC-FCC) - Harold Smith's *Touring Pgh. by Trolley* (TPT) - Volkmer's
Color Pgh book (VCP) - and Lind's St. Louis Car book (LSLC). Page
numbers will be given. I shall also use other sources - ERA - my own
photo collection - *Trolley Talk* (TT). All will be identified with
pg.# and / or photo-#. Photo sources:: Railroad Avenue Entereprizes
(RRE); Harold A. Smith (HAS); Scholes Photos (S)); M.D.-McCarter (MDM);
NRHS New Jersey (NJ); John Brinckman (JB).
The turnout must be clearly visible to see the point and mate or
the
toggle box attached to the point must be clearly seen. Those which are
unclear will just be skipped over. A number preceding the listing will
indicate the number of points visible in the photo. "Point-On" means
the car is facing the point; "Trailing" means the car is facing the
pivot of the point. As this is a Pgh. list, only PRCo shall be
considered.
INSIDE--RAIL POINT
2-Northbound Smithfield to East carson, Point-On and Trail,
PCC-FCC pg.178.
2-Smithfield & Carson, 50-line Jct Point-On & Trail
ERA May-Jun 1986, cover
1-Duquesne Way to Sixth Bridge Trail, TPT pg.11 bottom
1-Federal & ? Trail, TPT pg.12 bottom
1-East Ohio & ? Point-On point removed, mate still intact
TPT pg.13
2-East & Perrysville, Point-On & Trail, TPT pg.16
1-Perrysville & Charles Trail from 21-line, TPT pg.35 bottom
2-Monongahela & Rebecca, Point-On & Trail, TPT pg.39 top
1-Miller & Main 65-line siding
1-Jane St Loop trail, TPT pg.51 bottom
1-Electric to Wood Point-On, TPT. pg.52 top
1-Arlington near Carson entering single track, TPT pg.78
2-On Beltzhoover at Warrington, Point-On and Trail
TPT pg. 79
1-Duquesne Blvd east of Kennywood Park, trail, VCP pg.101
5-Craft Ave yards, VCP pg.113
2-Craft Ave yard, personal photo
2-Keating yard tracks, LSLC pg.147
2-Washington Jct., Point-On & Trail, TT #24-1, Aug 1959
2-Tylerdale yard tracks, TT #22-3
1-SHJ Admin back track to interurban outbound, Point-On
TT #174-3, April 1986
1-SHJ 44-38 jct outbound, Point-On, exit Tunnel,
ERA Sep-Oct 1969 cover
2-SHJ Derails, Point-On, 44-48 & interurban-38 etc.
3-Loop of Admin Bldg, interurban inbound and 44-48 outbound,
RRE #PN-12647
2-SHJ-Interurban-42 jct, Point-On & Trail
1-Leaving Castle Shannon Loop IB, Trail, RRE #PN-12627
1-Entering Castle Shannon Loop OB, Point-On, Russel Schramm
3-Interurban Wye, Little Washington, Russel Schramm
3-42-Dormont Wye, personal photos
1-Simmons loop Library
1-Drake loop, http://trolley.dementia.org/lybarger
1-SHJ Back track to interurban outbound Trail, SP #PGH-0088
2-42-line passing siding, Biltmore outbound, personal photos
3-SHJ yard leads from 42-line, MDM #N20954
6-SHJ yard tracks 1,2,3,4,5,6
5-Ingram yard tracks, NJ #PGH-086(2)
2-Shady & Penn, 60-line Point-On & Trail, RRE #PN-12676
2-88-line loop track on Tioga, PTM 1991 calendar, pg.2
1-Liberty Grant 87-line Trail, HAS #PI-0872
1-Brinton to bridge, 62-line, PTM calendar, July 1993
1-Clearview loop outbound, Point-On, personal photo
1-Court Place & 5th inbound Trail, HAS #PI-0216
1-Carrick yard, JB #PGH-0017
2-Heidelberg loop, photo source unknown
2-Centre & Negley, HAS #PI-0856
TOTAL 81
OUTSIDE--RAIL POINT
2-Smithfield to & from W. Carson, Point-On & Trail
ERA May-Jun 1986, cover
1-Glassport turnout, Point-On, TPT pg.39 center
1-Dawn Jct Trail, TPT pg.80, top
1-On Forbes Trail inbound from Craft yards, LSLC pg.143
1-Tioga 76-line outbound Point-On, TT #50-3, Sep 1964
1-Tioga loop to Wood Trail outbound, TT #180-8, April 1987
2-Charleroi Barn leads - by necessity! Photo source unknown.
1-Braddock westbound to ramp and loop to Rankin Bridge
southbound, 55line inbound, RRE #PN-12681
1-Craft Avenue yard, SP #PGH-1174
1-Craft Ave yard by necessity, personal photo
TOTAL 12
Skipped - quite a few!
There are more outside rail points than I would have assumed and
I am
sure there are more. Some appeared to be this way but could not say for
sure so I had to skip. But I think it is safe to say that the general
practice is to put the point on the inside rail.
It is interesting to note that a standard practice for sidings
in the
street is that the car entering the siding is on tangent until several
feet past the point - the turnout is not a true "Y" configuration. And
in most cases the point is inside rail.
> > Say isn't the movable point on the "wrong" side. It makes sense to be there
> > but I was under the impression that putting the movable point on the inside
> > of the curve was the exception to the rule.
James B. Holland
------- -- ---------
Pittsburgh Railways Company (PRCo), June of 1949 -- June of 1953
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