West Penn Today - The back Line

[Fred W. Schneider III]

Are we talking about the Uniontown - Phillips half-hour shuttle that ran between
the Uniontown-Phillips-Connellsville cars?  Just want to make certain there is
no confusion here.

I thought that Brownsville was black but who knows ... the Kodachrome film of
that era did a less than ideal job rendering those darker blues and greens.
How many actual signs do we have that came with 832?  And how many other
preserved signs do we know of ... and don't forget the ones in Vince Seyfried's
basement.  How much of this can we actually reconstruct from signs that actually
exist today?

I have personally seen the Mainline, Latrobe, South Connellsville, Fairchance,
and Irwin.   ... and now that I think about S.C. it was white on black so that
Phillips could not have been the same.

"Edward H. Lybarger" wrote:

> The one in my office is green.  Was Brownsville blue or black?  I think

I thought black from pictures I've seen.  But I'm only 60 years of age ... I
never saw it and sadly, neither did most of the people on the list.

>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-pittsburgh-railways at dementia.org
> [mailto:owner-pittsburgh-railways at dementia.org]On Behalf Of Fred W.
> Schneider III
> Sent: Monday, July 10, 2000 7:14 PM
> To: pittsburgh-railways at dementia.org
> Subject: Re: West Penn Today - The back Line
>
> 1.  Phillips line:  green or blue? Do we have an actual sign in the museum
> upon
> which we might gaze?
>
> 2.  The northern most borough in the City of New York is The Bronx, not
> Bronx.
> Just something that needed to be said.
>
> 3.  Weather is clouding up tonight.
>
> "Edward H. Lybarger" wrote:
>
> > I have a major pet peeve.  It involves the continued use of the highly
> > pompous and insulting "THE West Penn," "THE This," "THE That" that
> railfans
> > like to use to assert their familiarity with subjects.  Yes, some of the
> > companies promoted themselves like this, West Penn included, in the early
> > years.  It was a promotional tactic employed to intimidate the public into
> > believing a company was more important and/or more powerful than was
> > actually the case. But West Penn had the good taste to cease it at an
> early
> > date and call themselves the West Penn System or the West Penn Railways
> > Company, as appropriate, which frankly sound more prosperous that the
> phony
> > appellation.  Besides, the other is bad English.
> >
> > OK, nothing personal, but it needed to be said.
> >
> > Colors:  Phillips route - white on green; Masontown - red on cream;
> > Dickerson Run - black on yellow; Latrobe - white on green.  I think FWS
> has
> > done the rest of the list.
> >
> > Onward through Phillips:  Beyond West Place lies Jordan (or Jourdan, on
> the
> > R/W maps) Wye.  The line continued about a block east of present 51
> through
> > Oliver.  Now the alignment through here is different because of the bypass
> > construction and some of the 51 that I knew in the '60s has been abandoned
> > north of new 119, in the vicinity of Marsolino Construction.  North of
> here
> > the car line was on what is now northbound 51.  Both arches have been
> filled
> > in and the creek rerouted.  Wismer took a nice picture at Phillips mine in
> > 1950; I have a then and now shot here in the current exhibit at PTM.  The
> > mine property is being cleaned out, beginning spring 2000 (right after I
> > took my "now" photo).  Phillips Siding sat at Second Street (there's a
> > photo) but there's no record except for the company map of the next mile
> to
> > Vance's Mill.  There were two bridges in the wilderness here, one over a
> > stream and one over one of the many rail lines in this lowland, but no
> > photos until you get to the bridge at Vance's Mill proper.
> >
> > State (not County) Route (not Road) 1043 gets you in there, but to see the
> > north end of the last-mentioned trestle, quickly turn right on SR 1018 and
> > look right about 600 feet in.  Look left, too, and you'll see the R/W
> going
> > off into the jungle.  I think the concrete Fred speaks of was RR in
> origin;
> > there were 3 or 4 spurs that all came together in this area.  Bitner
> > abandoned?  It didn't seem that way about March, when I was last there.
> > It's just small!  But the car line was on the hill to the east, beyond the
> > coke ovens and the creek.  There was a siding in the woods, of which I
> have
> > one very poor picture, just opposite the patch.
> >
> > The next siding was north of the Elm Grove road crossing, and as you may
> > imaging was isolated, too.  There are lots of photos here.  This was the
> > site of a derailment of a chartered car in the late '40s that has been
> > erroneously quoted as having been at Gallagher.  There was no siding close
> > by to the north of Juniata; I think Fred's informer meant Elm Grove, which
> > was in fact very close to Juniata but to the south.  But Fred's describing
> > Juniata Road stop; no siding was there.  Wismer took a picture of a car on
> > the fill just south of the Elm Grove road crossing.
> >
> > The intersection of SRs 1047 and 1051 is known as Graham's Crossing, or
> > Fuehrer's stop.  Over the years, there were a number of changes to the
> > trolley alignment through the area around Leisenring; the Frick archives
> > produced the maps.  The big arena features roller skating on the west side
> > of the building and ice skating on the east.
> >
> > It's probably time to go to work; hope you've enjoyed this morning's
> > commentary.  And I didn't mean to offend anyone with the diatribe.
> >
> > Ed
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: owner-pittsburgh-railways at dementia.org
> > [mailto:owner-pittsburgh-railways at dementia.org]On Behalf Of
> > Fredbruhn at aol.com
> > Sent: Saturday, July 08, 2000 8:46 PM
> > To: pittsburgh-railways at dementia.org
> > Subject: West Penn Today - The back Line
> >
> > In my ramblings to date I have assumed that everyone in this group is as
> > enthusastic about the WP as I am and have all the available publications,
> > etc. that I make reference to now and then.  To recap, I have CERA 89 and
> > 110, the 1952 PERC West Penn booklet, the PTM booklet with orange cover
> and
> > 711 at Huff titled
> > West Penn Railways, and perhaps the Feb. 1950 Trains mag.  I am looking
> for
> > a
> > second copy of 89 as a backup, and have seen 110 on ebay several times if
> > you
> > need a copy.  I have a lead on one now if someone is short.  The Feb. 1950
> > Trains is what got my juicies going over WP, and they have never stopped.
> > You might find a copy from Paul Gibson, 11 Downingwood Dr. Franklin, MA
> > 02038-2768.  His email is Railpub at aol.com and if he has a copy can quote
> > price and shipping.  This was not usual for Trains to run a  featured
> > traction article, although they did from time to time.
> > I also have a couple of old Railroad mag. articles on the West Penn I pick
> > up
> > info from.
> >
> > After covering the branches to Brownsville and Martin, a look at the
> > Fairchance line and around Uniontown, I decided to tackle the "Back Line"
> > next.  This line ran from Uniontown to Connellsville as did the  "Main
> Line"
> > but covered the route in a big semi circle leaving Uniontown via the
> bridge
> > that is well photographed that took the lines over the railroad.  There is
> a
> > good photo on page 17 of the orange cover book that shows how the
> Footedale
> > branch was cut after those branches were terminated.
> > End of service dates for what we have covered (from the PERC booklet of
> > 1952)
> > are
> > 1-28-50 Brownsville, 2-4-50 Martin, and 3-25-50 Fairchance.  The back line
> > lasted another year to 1-20-51 when it and its branch to Dawson/Dickerson
> > Run
> > were closed.
> >
> > Destinaton signs were color coded - and I have been told or read that they
> > were because many of the riders read or understood little English.
> > >From the PERC booklet, the main line was white on red, Irwin white on
> > black,
> > Fairchance black on yellow, and those are all that I know.
> >
> > The back line carried a destination sign of CONNELLSVILLE, LEISENRING,
> > JUNIATA, OLIVER, PHILLIPS,  UNIONTOWN.   I didn't cover the earlier lines
> so
> > I better now,  the Fairchance line was: UNIONTOWN - HOPWOOD - FAIRCHANCE,
> > while Brownsville read: UNIONTOWN, NEW SALEM, ORIENT, REPUBLIC,
> BROWNSVILLE.
> >     The Martin line which appears to be a dark letter on a light
> > background reads: MARTIN - MASONTOWN -LECKRONE - FOOTEDALE - REVERE -
> > UNIONTOWN.  The most common sign, while we are on the subject, was the
> > UNIONTOWN - CONNELLSVILLE - SCOTTDALE - Mt. PLEASANT - GREENSBURG.
> >
> > All of this wasn't part of my trip but we are all up to speed (there are
> > more
> > signs, like to Trafford and Latrobe we will cover later).
> >
> > I started my trip over the back line on SR51 at about the point I thought
> > the
> > bridge ended that carried the line out of Uniontown.  Find your way to
> SR51,
> > which is just west of the terminal, and head north which will show signs
> for
> > Phillips and Oliver.
> > There is a short street that goes off to the right at a shallow angle that
> > is
> > West Place.  I took it as the map in the orange book showed the bridge and
> > wye just beyond the end of that street.  I didn't get out and walk beyond
> > the
> > end of the road and in hindsight I think you should as you might find
> > something interesting.  The map shows the line running between a creek and
> > the railroad and the highway, well off the highway.  I doubt route 51 was
> as
> > wide as it is today.  I didn't find anything at Oliver, and at Phillips I
> > began to get frustrated so I drove into the town which is about three
> > streets
> > of small homes and rolling West Virginia estates.  The streets end in a
> loop
> > and my assumption is the car line was beyond the town either in the field
> or
> > further.
> > Oliver and Phillips are not too far out of Uniontown and it is save to
> > assume
> > the line sort of paralleled Route 51.
> >
> > When you see the sign for County Road 1043, take it to the right.  This is
> a
> > narrow very rural road and after you have been on it a short while keep
> your
> > eye looking right and you should see a concrete bridge beyond a field sort
> > of
> > in the woods.  I didn't get out and walk through the field as there were
> > cows
> > with calves and I know these moms have no tolerance for railroad fans, in
> > spite of how dedicated they are.
> > I assume this was the WP, but it may have been a railroad spur.  You can
> > look
> > in the orange book and see on page  32 a relatively open scene, fields,
> > probably woods beyond the fields and this is what I expected.  Wrong.
> Keep
> > driving and the road winds and it is heavily wooded today.  From
> > conversations though, I am assured the line ran to your right as you
> > proceed.
> >  Don't give up because you will be rewarded later on with some nice
> sights.
> >
> > Follow the road towards Bitner.  You will come into the town which is
> almost
> > abandoned, but the company/town store is there and worth some photos.  I
> was
> > told
> > (by a source I will identify later who is reliable - if her memory is) the
> > car line ran behind the store, sort of on the other side of a shallow area
> > sort of on the hill.
> > Bitner was a stop.  (Prior to Bitner was Vance's Mill which is mentioned
> in
> > West Penn literature, but I assume it is gone today).  Continue on through
> > Elm Grove.
> > You didn't see it, well neither did I.  It is gone as I was told and I
> drove
> > up and down a road or two around there and found nothing of the West Penn
> or
> > Elm Grove.  Now watch for signs to Juniata, as you will be turning right
> off
> > of the road you were on.
> > Go through Juniata and then begin looking to your right on the hill across
> > the valley and you will finally pick up the line via the pole line and a
> > defined fill.  Continue on
> > and you will see the right of way drop down and cross the road you are on.
> > I got out to take a photo and was accosted  by a local resident  (probably
> > thought I was the IRS) who after I told him what I was looking for and
> doing
> > he calmed down.
> > In fact, he told me there was a siding at this road crossing, heard it
> from
> > his father.
> > OK.   This is the right of way, and turn 180 degrees and beside a white
> > garage
> > well back from a house is the right of way beginning a very steep and long
> > climb.
> > Continue on this road (T626) until you come to a wye in the road.  T626
> > actually ends at this point, but it is graded like a wye.  You want to
> turn
> > left here and start up
> > the hill.  This is Little Summit Road and you take it to the top of the
> hill
> > where there is a church on your left.  Just beyond the church you will see
> > the West Penn coming up to crest the hill and cross the road here at
> Little
> > Summit.  It was Mothers Day and I hated to bother the nice ladies ready
> for
> > church, but I did.  I asked the oldest looking lady waiting to enter the
> > church if she remembered the West Penn.  Oh yes, it came right up that
> hill
> > (which I now knew) and the stop was just across the road.
> > She said there was a shelter there and was my source for the Bitner info.
> >
> > Walk up to the right of way and look towards Connellsville and you can see
> a
> > dirt road but also along the pole line a depression where the line started
> > down a hill.
> > Continue on this road past a few houses and it will dead end into road
> 1047.
> > Turn right onto 1047 and watch on your right for the line as it is
> > descending
> > the hill from Little Summit.  It is visible.  Then you lose it in the
> woods
> > for a bit and it reappears
> > beside a house on your right that is brown and sets back from the road.
> You
> > are almost at the intersection of 1047 (which you are on) and 1051 where
> you
> > will stop.
> > It looked to me as the line came down to cross 1047 just past that house,
> > and
> > swung left above road 1051 and right in front of a stone barn which also
> is
> > well above
> > the road.  You turn left from 1047 onto 1051 and you are now heading for
> > Leisenring No. 1.  The right of way is on your left above the road, but as
> > you approach the jjunction it drops down to the road grade and to
> > Vanderbilt
> > Junction where the Dickerson Run cars turned off.  There is a great Lester
> > Wismer photo that was one of the PTM calendar shots showing both a
> Dickerson
> > Run car and Back Line car at this jjct.  The H.C. Frick Coke Co.(across
> the
> > road from the jct.) facility is gone and the property occupied by - you
> > would
> > never guess - a hugh roller skating rink.
> >
> > We will take the line into Connellsville as part of my Dickerson Run
> notes.
> > My assumption is that in 50 years the woods and trees have matured to the
> > point that the back line looks much different than it once did.  The
> > friendly
> > local at Juniata told me you can walk from the  road crossing quite a ways
> > along the right of way toward
> > Bitner.  I don't know what "quite a ways" means.
> >
> > Between Bitner and Juniata I did see behind a small farm concrete piers
> from
> > a small bridge, either the railroad or the West Penn.  I am guessing that
> > from the road as you are heading towards Juniata, the railroad is first
> and
> > then the West Penn.  That is a guess.  Anyway, I stopped and walked down
> the
> > this farm owner who was trying to get his power riding mower fixed and
> asked
> > him if I could go back and look at the remains of the bridge.  OK he says.
> > So with dreams of finding a West Penn spike
> > (I saw a pile of ties) I went through brambles and chest high weeds  to
> find
> > these ties, and yes there were tie  plates an a few spikes.  From this I
> > deducted these ties were railroad, but dragged myself back to the barn and
> > made further inquiries.
> > He seemed to remember this was a rail line(he had deposited the ties back
> > there, errrrg, the urge to kill) and the trolley was beyond on "the hill"
> > Back I went, this time after the brambles came the mud and water.  I got
> > partially up the hill but came back with no feeling that I had found the
> > right of way.  For my efforts I got to stay awhile and help him get his
> darn
> > pulley belt on his mower  and I lost a lot of time.
> >
> > By all means take the time to drive the Back Line, even if you don't find
> > more than I did.  Its part of the West Penn and there is enough to see to
> > wet
> > your appitite for more.
> >
> > Fred Bruhn