PRCo PCC Colors

[Edward G Skuchas]

The other comments about the Pgh model colors.  To be perfectly frank, you can get the models painted almost any way possible.  And I don't want people to think that Jim and my discussions are from one St P model  importer to another who are in competition.  I tell all my customers to deal with the people they feel comfortable with.  I sell all trolley models, not just Pgh PCC's.  I have been in business for almost 20 years.  I also don't just sell the cars, books and videos, I am a modeler myself.  I think Jim's efforts and research on the cars is admirable, and I think he has made some very valuable additions to the level of information that this web site has to offer.  Leonid in Russia has probably received more information about the Pgh PCC cars than any other model that he produces.  Some of the others dealing with St P send him plans and photos and he does the best he can.  I think the upshot of this discussion is that there are a variety of opinions.  So who knows someone with a can of paint from PRCo?  Who knows the guys who ordered the paint from whatever company?  Do the paint records exist?  I was not there at the time and I admit it.  I look at the photos just like everyone else.  This color decision process is like the services of an accountant--tell him what answer you want and he can make the figures prove whatever point you want.  So the guys at Arden have come up with a standard paint formula from a standard manufacturer.  I will email the formula to anyone who wants it.  Be glad to send it; have it on the computer.  Its not like most modelers formulas which often include "1 screwdriver of this into that".  It is in grams; very exacting.  What we should be happy about is that StP is making well crafted models.  If you don't like any of the colors, I sell kits for the cars.  A lot of the guys want to paint and finish their own.  Had one kit open on the table this weekend, and sold about 18.  More than painted cars.  

For those who are not just interested in PCC's, kits are available (not St P) for Kansas City cars, Philadelphia 2100? and SF double enders (the latter from Australia). Also, P&W bullets and Kawasaki cars.   Coming in a few months:  WEST PENN CENTER ENTRANCE CARS.    There are excellent plans and detail info available about those cars, so a good model will be made.  So there are many other items available for the modeler.

Keep up the good work about digging up the PRCo and other information.  Love the history items.

Thank you,

Edward G. Skuchas
THE BERKSHIRE CAR SHOP
505 Mourning Dove Road
Audubon, PA 19403-1807
610-631-9751 evenings
610-855-2532 day
edtallman at aol.com  evening
edward.g.skuchas at parsons.com  daytime


-----Original Message-----
From: Skuchas, Edward G. 
Sent: Monday, September 11, 2000 6:14 PM
To: 'pghpcc at pacbell.net'
Subject: RE: PRIVATE REPLY --- PRCo PCC Colors
Importance: High


Thanks for the note.  I agree with you on many points.  The first is that the quality is superb.  You even get more of an appreciation of the work when you see a kit.  You feel easier handling the cars, and it is all in pieces.  I have owned nearly all and have seen the rest of just about any trolley car model that was ever made.  Brass, plastic, epoxy, white metal, wood.  I personally know most of the scratch builders and a good number of the finishers.  All of the above was mentioned only because I don't let the quality of one model swing my opinion.  I look for the relative quality.  If someone has never seen a model before, or is used to Lionel O-27 trains, seeing a StP model should make them drool.  So I first look at Leonid and the crew's quality.  Top notch.  In some cases a little too fragile especially for those of us who want to operate the cars.  Can't be running one of his PCC's with a bunch of cast bronze models.  One bump and it would be crushed.

There may be some instances of body curvatures not being accurate.  I haven't really noticed any.  The one sneaky thing that was done on the Key System units was the use of negative rivets--depression rather than raised bump.  I think they were few rivets on them.  So instead of making the pattern a different way to accommodate just a few positive rivets, they went negative.  They are still very very nice.  The pantographs were done very well.

Where I have found errors have been in the paint and signs.  For example, the first DC pre PCC comes to mind.  That was done as one of his exclusive deals which have been a real mistake.  The cars are nice as usual.  The first thing that was told to me was that the destination signs were wrong.  The cars ran on only certain lines, and his signs were from a fan trip.  Kind of like the 1700 series interurban with Kennywood signs?  A good friend gave me the route info that the car ran on, and then told me the correct signs that it would have including the cut back information.  Then there is the body color; it is off somewhat.  That has been corroborated by a few people who would know.  It impressed me as a nice car, and I did not notice the errors.  I refuse to get involved with more corrective work on that car because it is not my project or it is not an open project.

The Pittsburgh cars were taken to Bud Charles on night who invited a variety of people to see it.  They all wanted one, but the comments came out about the paint.  We compared the cars to the photos.  So it was a group review.  Harold Gessenheimer made the comments to me at the NJ trolley show that the colors were off.  Among others.

We can't go back in time to verify the colors, so we have to do the best that we can to focus on how best to determine what the colors were.

Harold Cox and I were chatting quite awhile ago about some of his research.  He had me an elderly gentleman who was giving him a wealth of information about a trolley line.  The information finally made all of the puzzle parts fit together.  What a resource.  He then asked him to talk about the color of the cars, and he said very authoritatively that they were pink.  Then Harold really wondered if any of which he heard was true at all.

Have a nice evening, I've got to go home.  Hopefully Leonid can send me a car in the revised colors so that I can judge it against the other colors.

Would love to chat with you some more about other Pittsburgh items.  I enjoyed living there, and I enjoyed the PCC's.

Regards,

Edward G. Skuchas, P.E.
Senior Mechanical Engineer
Parsons Energy & Chemicals Group, Inc.
2675 Morgantown Road
Reading, PA 19607
610-855-2532 voice
610-855-2161 fax
edward.g.skuchas at parsons.com


-----Original Message-----
From: Jim Holland [mailto:pghpcc at pacbell.net]
Sent: Monday, September 11, 2000 2:50 PM
To: Skuchas, Edward G.
Subject: PRIVATE REPLY --- PRCo PCC Colors


Greetings!

Edward G Skuchas wrote:

*-1700 PCC colors, will there ever be an agreement.  That's the problem
with paint
*-that fades. . .

*-In all of the years that I have modeled trolley cars, 99% of the model
owners
*-painted their cars in "like new" condition. . .

*-Transit professionals who were involved with car color designs
commented to me
*-directly that the StP models had too much orange in the red, and the
cream was too
*-white.  The first models use glossy white and flat red paint.  Even
putting gloss
*-paint on the red is an improvement.

	My experience has been just the opposite - everyone thinks they are
tremendously good looking!  In fact, *every-single-customer* is
absolutely overwhelmed at the quality and *realism* of the model.  One
person was absolutely speechless - set the cars on the dining room table
and stared at them all evening like a video!  He said the cars were so
realistic that they were spooky!:>)
	Would it be possible to verify the comments from the transit
professionals you mention?
	The eye and the memory are constantly playing tricks on us!  You know
that if you told a story to one person, gave that person a list of
people and told him to pass the story on to the first person and that
person to the next, by the time the story got back to you it would be
entirely different.  Optical illusions, even witnessing events
first-hand can present vastly different stories from different people.
	Our *memories* of colors can be *colored* by black and white prints
which often show the red much, much darker than it really was -
gray-scale renderings of B&W prints in the early days were very poor,
like early computer graphics!
	As far as memory goes, most of us would remember the most recent colors
and these would overshadow the original colors - 51-years ago!

*-Another problem with the StP cars may be the fact that they may have
not painted
*-their cream on, but used the cast body color.  Having 1700 kits, which
are not
*-painted, I know the cast body color.

	While I haven't checked this as yet, it is my understanding that the
model is cast for the *interior* color.
	I have some photos of 17s, new and older, where
*only-the-roof-fan-monitor* appears to have a definite gray shade - the
rest of the roof is cream.  And these are PRCo cars, not ({[pat]}).  Is
the eye being tricked or is it really gray?

*-Modelers who have put lights in their cars
*-have noted that the car looks like a night light with the body
glowing.  There need
*-to be more paint on their cars should the extra detailing be done. 
(The kits are nice
*-for people who can't wait to paint their cars in other color schemes.)

	I mentioned this to Leonid and his concern is obliterating the details
with too much paint.  What are some of the details that are missing that
should be there?

*-A good number of StP's cars are coming through with mistakes, and they
can only
*-fix them if accurate information is thoroughly researched and
provided.  Their
*-casting work is excellent, and the detailing is very, very good.

	The specific colors and DuPont numbers were furnished to
*St.-Petersburg Trams* for the colors.  But that is for a much darker
red.  I am satisfied with the *St.-Petersburg Trams* colors.  If you get
a chance, get the video *PCC-Trilogy* which shows the PRCo 1200s when
new in 1940.  The colors definitely have an orange bias and I feel that
is most accurate and pleasing.
	Car 1711 at the museum appears to be too dark a red - I grew up with
the cars and I am older than the 1600s!  I don't remember the darker red
until the later 1950s when cars were repainted.  Also, the front window
area should be painted black.

Regards,

Edward G. Skuchas, P.E.
Senior Mechanical Engineer
Parsons Energy & Chemicals Group, Inc.
2675 Morgantown Road
Reading, PA 19607
610-855-2532 voice
610-855-2161 fax
edward.g.skuchas at parsons.com


-----Original Message-----
From: Dietrich, Robert J. [mailto:bob.dietrich at unisys.com]
Sent: Monday, September 11, 2000 8:06 AM
To: 'pittsburgh-railways(a)dementia.org'
Subject: PCC Colors


Was  RE: Fall Trolley Extravaganza

I had the pleasure of meeting the Teacher/Trombonist/Conductor/Historian
on
Saturday, we has an enjoyable discussion.  Thanks for following up
Dennis.


The Fall Trolley Extravaganza was a nice meet, several hundred folks
showed
up.  There weren't as many modules as in the past, seems many of my East
Penn Traction Club brethren had other plans.

Dennis' reference to painting PRCo paint comes from a question I was
asking
all over the meet.  What model paint should be used to match PRCo PCC
colors?  This begs the obvious question what color was the prototype? 
Fred
Schneider told me it is the paint supplier said it is the same as the
LVT
Mountain Ash Scarlet.   Ed Skuchas told me it is redder than that.  The
photo on the PTM Poster at this weekend's meet showed the restored PTM
1700
car repainted in a very red hue.  But the cover of the 2000 PTM calendar
shows 1697 much more subdued and orange, a closer match to the LVT
photos
I've seen.

The evidence is all tainted; was the restored car painted with the
correct
paint?  What effect did time have on the old color photos (we know what
effect time had on the cars)?  And what color was Mountain Ash Scarlet?

Would anyone like to render an opinion as to the color I should use to
paint
my weathered PRCo PCCs?

Thanks.
Bob
 -----Original Message-----
From:   DF Cramer [mailto:dfc1 at alltel.net] 
Sent:   Monday, September 11, 2000 6:17 AM
To:     trolley LIST
Subject:        Fall Trolley Extravaganza

    Greetings to all of you that I met at King of Prussia.  Thanks so
much
for dropping by the booth and saying hello.  I was truly impressed with
the
level of modeling craftmanship that you all have.  Bravo!

    A note to Bob Dietrich:  I used Badger Model Flex Caboose Red
(16-08)
and Antique White ((16-06) on my HO 1700 Series PCC's.  It seems pretty
close to 1711 at PTM, but as I said, I suffer from color blindness.  I
also
followed up in your written request about membership.

DF Cramer  Teacher/Trombonist/Conductor/Historian
www.geocities.com/armconband

James B. Holland

        Pittsburgh  Railways  Company  (PRCo),   1930  --  1950
    To e-mail privately, please click here: mailto:pghpcc at pacbell.net
N.M.R.A.  Life member #2190; http://www.mcs.net:80/~weyand/nmra/