[PRCo] Re: Politics of Traction Thread

[Fred W. Schneider III]

Apologies for venting not needed.  This is also good material for
docents at the trolley museum (if we can get some who are not
railfanatics.  

John Swindler wrote:
> 
> The interurbans were built because they were a tremendous technological
> advance.
> 
> And they disappeared because the automobile was a tremendous technological
> advance.
> 
> Under the category of 'things I never thought of/realized before':
> 
> How does one travel from Monongahela River valley towns to court house in
> Washington County to conduct business??
> 
> ans:  You take a steam packet from Monongahela to Pittsburgh (two trips
> daily (morning departure and late afternoon), or twice the frequency of most
> Amtrak services); then take the Chartiers Valley train to Washington.  It
> was a two day trip.
> 
> ans #2:  With the opening of the Charleroi interurban line, equipped with
> the new 'big cars' (you know, the 3200-3209 series), one could now ride the
> interurban to Finleyville, and take B&O to Washington.  It cut the travel
> time to Washington in half.
> 
> ans #3:  As automobiles became available, and roads were improved - and this
> was occuring as early as circa 1905 - it was becoming possible to drive to
> Washington to conduct business, in less then a day.
> 
> Why this example?  The 1895-1898 newspapers from Monongahela were
> interesting in that there was a determined effort to create a new county in
> the Monongahela Valley because of the transportation problems associated
> with conducting business in the county seats of Uniontown, Greensburg,
> Pittsburgh and Washington.  The discussion and pending legislation seemed to
> die out at about the time trolleys appeared on the scene.
> 
> One final observation.  Couple years ago on a drive to mother-in-laws in
> Indiana, we stopped at a former C&LE freight house that had been converted
> into a store.  The owner's mother was there, and yes, she remembered the
> interurban cars as a small child.  But a more vivid memory was her father
> having to walk two miles to catch the interurban to Lima, Ohio.  Eventually
> the family managed to acquire an automobile, and this afforded the father
> with the option of driving direct to Lima, rather then depend on C&LE.
> 
> So my question to those of us who lament the passing of the interurban era,
> "what don't you understand about being condemned to walking two miles to
> catch a trolley?"  "What don't you understand about walking two miles in all
> sorts of weather - snow, rain, hot summer days - just to ride the trolley
> and thereby support continued trolley operation?"  Why are we critical of
> others who sought to avoid hardships, and in the process brought about the
> demise of our favored mode of transportation?
> 
> John with apologies for some 'venting'.
> 
> >From: "Edward H. Lybarger" <twg at pulsenet.com>
> >Reply-To: pittsburgh-railways at dementia.org
> >To: <pittsburgh-railways at dementia.org>
> >Subject: [PRCo] Re: Politics of Traction Thread
> >Date: Sat, 4 Aug 2001 13:21:59 -0400
> >
> >
> >Oakdale-McDonald was the only link built in a grand scheme to connect
> >Bridgeville with Holliday's Cove (Weirton) and Steubenville; Pittsburgh
> >Railways was to have built south to Bridgeville to enable the connection.
> >I
> >think it is remarkable that the company lasted at all!
> >
> >Ed
> >
> >-----Original Message-----
> >From: pittsburgh-railways-bounce at lists.dementia.org
> >[mailto:pittsburgh-railways-bounce at lists.dementia.org]On Behalf Of Fred
> >W. Schneider III
> >Sent: Friday, August 03, 2001 6:30 PM
> >To: pittsburgh-railways at dementia.org
> >Subject: [PRCo] Re: Politics of Traction Thread
> >
> >
> >
> >The whole West Penn mainline was paralleled by the Pennsylvania
> >Railroad; the B&O also competed with the mainline between Fairchance,
> >Uniontown, and Connellsville.  And, of course, the B&O offered much
> >faster service to from points on the West Penn in Fayette County to
> >McKeesport than the trolley did. The Greensburg - Irwin - Trafford
> >service was right beside the Pennsy and, at one time, the PRR had very
> >decent local service.  Because most people were not going from town
> >(station) to town (station), the West Penn was strong competition to the
> >railroad.
> >
> >Your suggestions were correct.  The trolleys ran more frequently and at
> >lower cost and stopped more often to pick up the farmer than the trains
> >did.  (And before you digest that sentence, I've even known the Penn
> >Central to stop train 616 in eastern Lancaster County on a very regular
> >basis to drop a certain Amish farmer.)  This sort of service worked as
> >long as economics mattered.  When we want something really bad, like
> >using a car, then we dismiss economics saying that depreciation doesn't
> >count because I need the car anyway.
> >
> >The Oakdale and McDonald was no at anomoly in any way.  The state was
> >filled with trolley lines from no where to no place and many of them ran
> >parallel to railroad lines.  Of course, they were the ones that got torn
> >up earliest.  If you wish examples, Cititzens Traction from Rouseville
> >to Oil City to Franklin (versus PRR and Erie); Conneaut and Erie or
> >Cleveland and Erie (the NYC mainline was the competitor), the Jersey
> >Shore Electric Street Railway (this actually fed a railroad yard but
> >didn't have enough business to survive); the Jersey Shore and Antes Fort
> >(this creature connected the Northern Central or PRR with the city of
> >Jersey Shore ... a Toonerville that Met All Trains.  And how about the
> >original Penn Central that ran beside the Pennsy mainline in Cambria
> >County.  Most of these were gone in the 20s, PC or South Fork -
> >Summerhill I think quit in 1918.
> >
> >There was a lot of mileage north of Philadelphia in Bucks County (most
> >of the Bucks County Interurban Railway), the Doylestown and Easton or
> >Philadelphia and Easton depending on which year, and the PRT Willow
> >Grove - Hatboro line that also vanished in the 1920s.  These lines
> >didn't compete with railroads.  Simply if one farmer in ten could afford
> >an auto, it was apparently too much competition.  There just were not
> >enough people in suburban Philly in them thar days.
> >
> >Derrick J Brashear wrote:
> > >
> > > On Fri, 3 Aug 2001, Kenneth Josephson wrote:
> > >
> > > > This isn't Western Pennsylvania-related (unless you count the
> >mentioning
> >of George
> > > > Westinghouse), but there is an excellent thread going on about the
> >economic failure of the
> > > > interurban industry on Laura Heiden's North Shore Line discussion
> >board.
> > >
> > > Well, I can easily bring such a thing on-topic.
> > > >From what appears to be the first message in the thread:
> > > "why do historians of U.S. industry, transportation and even railroads
> > > ignore the Interurban Era?"
> > >
> > > In many cases much as there were redundant steam railroad lines
> >interurban
> > > lines in the context of the existing steam lines. At least that's the
> >way
> > > it looks from here. For reasons which aren't really appropriate for
> > > discussion here I found myself going through Oakdale and McDonald 3
> >times
> > > this week.(*) There was a remote part of the West Penn here; The
> >Panhandle
> > > Division of the Pennsylvania Railroad also connected the two towns along
> > > with Pittsburgh, Steubenville, and other places.
> > >
> > > What did the trolley bring to the table?
> > > -Cheaper fares
> > > -I lack railroad timetables of the right era, but probably more frequent
> > > headways
> > >
> > > The question then is what impact it had on travel in the area. I'm not
> > > sure.
> > >
> > > The wise among you will rightly point out that a small operation in
> > > isolation like Oakdale-McDonald isn't really a fair example for an
> > > interurban as neither Oakdale nor McDonald (nor Noblestown) is urban. I
> > > can only agree, but it was a fine example of an operation entirely
> > > paralleled by a steam railroad which was fresh in my head. If you want
> > > other examples, Trafford-Irwin is a good one, and was part of a network
> > > which connected Pittsburgh with Greensburg (those are both urban, right?
> > > ;-) Yet that portion fell over early compared to the rest.
> > >
> > > Aside from local historians and people like us, this sort of line is
> > > forgotten.
> > >
> > > Extrapolate.
> > >
> > > -D
> > > (*) If you're curious why I ended up out there 3 times this week I'll be
> > > happy to amuse you offlist. It's not any of the obvious reasons.
> >
> >
> >
> 
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