3750s etc.

[Edward H. Lybarger]

3702 and 3709 were the two cars that collided January 18, 1943.

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-pittsburgh-railways at dementia.org
[mailto:owner-pittsburgh-railways at dementia.org]On Behalf Of Tom Phillips
Sent: Sunday, January 07, 2001 10:53 PM
To: pittsburgh-railways at dementia.org
Subject: RE: 3750s etc.


Jim -- 

Much thanks for this information -- there is alot here to digest
Car 3702 which you list below must have been one of the two 3700's
involved in a "cornfield meet" near Brookside Farms during 01/43 -- 
no knowledge of the number or dispostion of the other car.  (As a 
teenager, I remember this wreck -- the death of the operator of 
one of the cars was the only immediate casualty -- I don't know if
there were others later.  I understand that this accident was the 
result of signal operation hampered by sand causing insulation in 
the wheel/track circuitry -- perhaps Art Ellis, EHL, or FWS3 can 
share some knowledge on this event.)

As you say, there are some inaccuracies in these rosters -- perhaps
several weeks worth of research at PTM's library would be in order.

The following is from Alan R. Lind's "From Horse Cars to Streamliners 
-- An Illustrated History of The St. Louis Car Company":

   Job #   Order Date    Cars    Orig PRCo #    Ship dates unknown

    262     03/25/02      60      3001-3060
    554A    05/19/05     100      3400-3499
    748     04/19/07      50      3500-3549
    762A    06/11/07       6      6000-6005      (Trailers)
    996     05/05/13      50      4200-4249
   1078     04/25/16      50      4350-4399      
     do        do         12      4400-4411      Nee BVTC 400-411
   1079     04/25/16      75      A300-A374      (Trailers)
   1149     03/30/17      50      A375-A424*     (Trailers)
   1301     02/06/23      75      4865-4939
   1469     12/27/27      15      3800-3814

     * Confusion in numbering -- may have been renumbered into
       Bxxx and Cxxx series.

       PCC info excluded here.

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-pittsburgh-railways at dementia.org
[mailto:owner-pittsburgh-railways at dementia.org]On Behalf Of Jim Holland
Sent: Saturday, January 06, 2001 1:42 PM
To: pittsburgh-railways at dementia.org
Subject: Re: 3750s etc.


Greetings!

> Tom Phillips wrote:

> I was working from memory - I intended to say 3556 which, per
> "Electric Railroads" (Number 20 - July 1952) dates this car to
> 1915.  This experiment must have been relatively successful as
> 1) the 3700's followed just one year later and 2) the car was
> in service at least through WWII.  This source also states the
> carbuilder to be Standard.  Could this have been a rebuild of
> a trailer or two?  The other fact that is interesting is that
> the car was only 7'9" wide,

>> Jim wrote:
>>         3556 is listed as 1910 which is the same as  *one--source*
>>         indicates for the 3600s.

> The date of 1910 OK for 3600's but I question 1910 for 3556 unless
> the 1915 date which I cited above is a rebuild date.  Would the
> construction dates for the trailers offer any insight here?  Also,
> would the 3556 predate the powered trailers you referenced.  I have
> no dates.  When were the 4200's built (I'm guessing 1912)?

ROSTER---#3
	In addition to the Electric Railroads which you mention, I have
3(?)-other rosters.  One is type-written and is complete as of
1944--only and the latest PCCs it lists are the 1400s.  Here is a quote
from the credits::   "Typed for ELECTRANSIT NEWS, District of Columbia
Chapter, NRHS.  Source material:  Rosters by Henry J. Leinbach, Jr, and
Charles J. Dengler, of Pittsburgh, PA."  Charles Dengler is a founding
member of the Museum.
	The above roster states a 1910 date for 3556 and also states it was 
*built*  by the  *Company Shops.*
	For 3600--3619, no date is given.

	01)---	Trailers A200--A249 built 1910
	02)---	Trailers A250--A299 built 1912
	03)---	Trailers A300--A424 built ????
	04)---	Trailers A600--A624 built 1916

	05)---	4200--4249  --	1910!!
	06)---	4250--4349  --	1915!!
	07)---	4350--4399  --	1917
	08)---	4400--4411  --	1917
	09)---	4420--4423  --	1910--1912.  Ex-trailers built as power
                                                 cars 1910--1912!
	10)---	4700--4799  --	1917


ROSTER---#2

	Another roster was printed in  *THE  TRANSFER  TABLE*  Winter of 1965. 
Quoted credits::   "This roster not possible w/o help of:  Harry C.
Bartley, Charles Dengler, Haenry Leinbach Jr, Charles Murphy, O.R.
Cummings.  Signed Harold Buckley Jr, 10--Aug--1963.
	3556  --  built 1915 by PRCo.
	3600--3619 built 1910 by Kuhlman
	Using the numbers above this roster lists building dates as:

	01)---	1910
	02)---	1912
	03)---	1917
	04)---	1912 - made from 3200s spliced

	Numbering system varies from above list:
	05)---	4200--4249  --	1914
	06)---	4250--4299  --	1914
	07)---	4300--4349  --	1915
	08)---	4350--4399  --	1916
	09)---	4400--4411  --	1917
	10)---	4420--4423  --	1912

	The above 2-rosters are on several sheets; the following roster is on
85 pages so I tend to consult the ones above first!


ROSTER---#1

	This roster lists  *individual car numbers*  for each group and shows
arrival date, in service date, and disposition date in addition to
reason and type of disposition where at all possible.  This  MIGHT  be
original PRCo records, or something compiled from same.  DO  NOT  know
actual source.
	3556  --  10.29.1915, Standard Steel-Pressed Steel listed as builder. 
It lists the length as 35-feet, 8-1/4 inches.  That should probably be
55-feet.  It was burned for scrap at Ingram on 01.28.1946, almost
55-years ago!
	3600 herselve arrived on 04.17.1910 and was burned for scrap at Castle
Shannon on 09.15.1928.  3601 actually arrived on 01.23.1910 and was
burned for scrap at West Park Car House on 10.30.1928.  The latest
delivery was July--1910.
	3702 was the first of this series to arrive on 01.05.1918, 83--years
ago!  She was scrapped because she was damaged in a collision that
possibly resulted in a fire, scrap date 01.18.1943.
	4200 herself arrived on 04.03.1914, was loaned to Beaver Valley
Traction Company on 12.01.1915 and was returned in May of 1917.  She was
converted to one man on 07.26.1933 and disposed of on 04.30.1953. 
St.-Louis Car is the builder.  This is listed as Group-23, 4200--4249.
	Group--24:  4250--4299	Jan--Oct--1915

	The above group had the body design of the trailers.
	The following cars had slightly different body design.

	Group--25:  4300--4349	Mar--Dec--1915
	Group--26:  4350--4399  Jan--Nov--1917
	Group--27:  4400--4411  --  Purchased second--hand from Beaver Valley
Traction and they arrived in Pgh Jan--Mar--1923; building date is
probably 1915--1916.  These  **MAY**  have similar body style to
trailers, 4200--4250.

	Group--28:
	4420 built 01.23.1911 as trailer A217
	4421 built 03.10.1911 as trailer A242
	4422 built 11.28.1913 as trailer A283
	4423 built 12.03.1913 as trailer A284
	Notes say all the above were converted to Motors on 05.18.1928!!  But I
have an article showing conversion in 1914!!.  All these cars were
disposed of in March and April of 1932.

	Group--29:  4700--4799 Aug-1916--Oct-1917.

James B. Holland

        Pittsburgh  Railways  Company  (PRCo),   1930  --  1950
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