Missing Blocks of Car Numbers

[Jim Holland]

Greetings!

> Tom Phillips wrote:

> Some additional comments:

> AND REMEMBER:- SPECULATION THIS IS -- NO BASIS IN FACT!

	Yes and No to the above.  Deductive reasoning is at work  --  and you
have included some excellent observations along those lines.

	MORE  comments at the end......

	Also, listing of low-floor dates from 4865--5500s and 3750s in date
order.  The dating is taken from the  *Group--List*  which lists dates
of arrival and disposition for each and every car.  Other lists which
list only the year for building conflict with this list!!

>> Jim Holland wrote:

>>       There are too many consistencies in the life of PRCo to think that they
>> would not use some system of car numbering, even if it seems elusive to us.
>> And it thus does not seem unlikely that they would leave a block of numbers
>> for *potential* interurbans.

> I agree

> Given the following:

> 1)      There was a known division between the "interurban" and "city"
>         operations -- separate seniority rosters, separate barn assignments
>         (even at Tunnel Car House, the separation continued through 1952,
>         perhaps longer) and consequently separate numbering sequences.

>         There were aberrations:  The 4200's (later 4300's) used on the
>         Donora line and the 4300's operating in Washington -- these cars,
>         all original "city" cars, appeared to me to be initially on
>         "lease-purchase" to the "interurban" operation as they were never
>         renumbered or returned  -- and they did not follow any numerical
>         sequence.

> 2)      The 3750's were purchased new, not converted, for service on the
>         Charleroi line to replace the 3600's.  Thus the numbering of the
>         3750's in the interurban scheme.

>         They were apparently not reassigned to the "city" operation after
>         downgrading as they continued to be used almost exclusively on
>         37-SHANNON and tripper service to Library; i.e., the lines controlled
>         and dispatched by and for the "interurban" operation.

> 3)      The 3750-3758 cars used on 23-SEWICKLEY, per Fred Schneider,
>         continued to be maintained and operated out of Tunnel Car House.
>         This could shed some light as to why they retained their original
>         numbers as perhaps this may have been a reciprocity deal ala the
>         4300's above (admittedly, however, PRCo showed little affinity for
>         car renumbering).

>         Question:  Was there a division between GE and Westinghouse Jones
>         Cars such that only GE cars were located to the north and west like
>         the GE PCC's were in later years.  This, too, may have some bearing
>         as to why the 3750's (Westinghouse cars) were maintained at Tunnel
>         Car House -- the PCC's subsequently used on 23-SEWICKLEY were GE's.
> 
> 4)      The 3400's were purchased in 1905 and the 3500-3549's series in 1907,
>         both prior to the "interurban" operation coming on line.  This lends
>         credence to the argument advanced last week that the 4000 series (1910)
>         were numbered thus because of a radical design change.  However, it
>         could also be debated that now that it was on line, the "interurban"
>         operation picked up with the 3600's (also 1910), that series grouping
>         having been vacated by the "city" operation's order for the 4000's.
>         Anyone have an explanation for 3556 (debatedly 1915)?

>>> John Swindler wrote:

>>> Maybe just for convenience, PRC ended up with a 3750-3769 series, and not a
>>> small 5600 series.

> Tom writes again::

> It would be nice to see a roster of cars with purchase
> dates from trailer days (1910), including the 3600's,
> through the 5500's and 3800's.  Does anyone have
> one that could be put on the screen?

	Yes - I have this - and so does John.  This is the one that lists
everything by Groups.  This roster is about 85-pages long.  It lists
each car by delivery date and disposition date with type of disposition
when possible.  The PCCs also include an In Service Date.

	It would certainly appear that the Groups were added
		 *after--the--fact*  as Group Numbers
are progressive without any holes  --  one would expect  
		Blank--Group--Numbers  like  Blank--Car--Numbers  
otherwise, YES?!  The 3800s are Group--20 and the 4000s are Group--21!

	The following dates are from the  *Group*  List where dates are listed
for each and every individual car - other lists conflict somewhat.  Do I
have these in good date order???????

	4865--4939 Sept--1923 to Feb--1924 (Group--32)
		St.-Louis Car, all lists agree!!
		3-lists agree on dates.

	5400--5464 built Sept--Dec--1924 - Osgood Bradley listed on
		this roster but Standard Steel on other rosters!!
		3-lists agree on dates.

	5100--5159 arrived Dec--1924 (25-cars) thru Feb--1925!
		5100s built by Osgood Bradley
		3-lists agree on dates.

	5000--5099 arrived Feb--Aug--1925;  Pressed Steel builder.
		2-lists say 1924.

	ALL  but 2 of the 3750s arrived in November--1925  --
		3768 arrived 1925.12.09 and 3769 arrived 1925.12.12!!
		Osgood Bradley builder on this roster;
		Standard Steel listed as builder on other rosters!
		3-lists agree on dates.

	5200--5282 built Nov--1925 thru Jan--1926
		with 5282 coming 3-months later on 1926.04.05!
		Builder not listed on this roster but other rosters
		lister the builder as Standard Steel.
		3-lists agree on dates.

	5500--5549 Dec--1926 to Feb--1927, Osgood Bradley on this
		roster but Standard on others!
		3-lists agree on dates.

James B. Holland

        Pittsburgh  Railways  Company  (PRCo),   1930  --  1950
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