Missing Blocks of Car Numbers

[John Swindler]

>Tom Phillips commented: Some additional comments:
>
>AND REMEMBER:- SPECULATION THIS IS -- NO BASIS IN FACT!
>
>Jim Holland wrote:
>
> >   There are too many consistencies in the life of PRCo to think that 
>they would not use some system of car numbering, even if it seems elusive 
>to us.
> >   And it thus does not seem unlikely that they would leave a block of 
>numbers for *potential* interurbans.
>
>I agree
>
>Given the following:
>
>1)  There was a known division between the "interurban" and "city" 
>operations -- separate seniority rosters, separate barn assignments (even 
>at Tunnel Car House, the separation continued through 1952, perhaps longer) 
>and consequently separate numbering sequences.
>
>  There were aberrations:  The 4200's (later 4300's) used on the Donora 
>line and the 4300's operating in Washington -- these cars, all original 
>"city" cars, appeared to me to be initially on "lease-purchase" to the 
>"interurban" operation as they were never renumbered or returned -- and 
>they did not follow any numerical sequence.
>




Question with answer below:  When it comes to rolling stock or equipment, 
there were two districts within the Car House Section of the Equipment 
Division.  What were these two districts??????



















District One was the six east end car houses with 466 cars assigned in 1937.

District Two was everything else with 384 cars assigned in 1937.

And that should tell us something about the relative importance of the 
interurban lines within PRC management.


And as for the "two separate lists" at Tunnel Car House, this involved 
employee seniority within the Traffic and Transportation Department: one for 
city service and one for interurban service. But is that two lists at Tunnel 
Carhouse or is that a Tunnel Car House seniority list and a Castle Shannon 
Car House seniority list which has been transferred to Tunnel Carhouse?????

Since I don't have a copy of a ATU labor contract, here is a question for 
Dr. Jim:  What would happen at MUNI to your seniority for picking runs if 
you were to transfer to another depot, such as Geneva?   Does it go with you 
or do you start at the bottom of the seniority list for run picking at the 
new garage????

But the real question is, who has a copy of the labor agreement between ATU 
div. 85 and PRC from 1930s or 1940s?   And what does it say about seniority 
and picking of runs?  Because I'd bet a value meal at McDonald's (ok, so I'm 
cheap!) that seniority for picking runs was why Tunnel maintained a city and 
a interurban seniority list.






>2)  The 3750's were purchased new, not converted, for service on the 
>Charleroi line to replace the 3600's.  Thus the numbering of the 3750's in 
>the interurban scheme.
>
>  They were apparently not reassigned to the "city" operation after 
>downgrading as they continued to be used almost exclusively on 37-SHANNON 
>and tripper service to Library; i.e., the lines controlled and dispatched 
>by and for the "interurban" operation.
>
>3)  The 3750-3758 cars used on 23-SEWICKLEY, per Fred Schneider, continued 
>to be maintained and operated out of Tunnel Car House.  This could shed 
>some light as to why they retained their original numbers as perhaps this 
>may have been a reciprocity deal ala the 4300's above (admittedly, however, 
>PRCo showed little affinity for car renumbering).
>
>   Question:  Was there a division between GE and Westinghouse Jones Cars 
>such that only GE cars were located to the north and west like the GE PCC's 
>were in later years.  This, too, may have some bearing as to why the 3750's 
>(Westinghouse cars) were maintained at Tunnel Car House -- the PCC's 
>subsequently used on 23-SEWICKLEY were GE's.
>



Fred the third and I got into a "discussion" this morning concerning low 
floor car assignments.  (actually more like a raid on Fred's memory) One of 
the questions involved why only partial conversion to one man operation and 
HL control for DE cars, primarily starting in 4200s.  So I asked following 
questions:

What type of single end cars were at Keating?  K-control.  And double end?  
K-control.

And what was at Tylerdale?  HL control.  And 3700s-3800s?  HL control.

And at Tunnel?  HL control (look at Bob Dettrick's site:  those are 5000s at 
South Hills Jct.)

And what was at Ingram?  I think Fred said it was a K-control barn.



>4)  The 3400's were purchased in 1905 and the 3500-3549's series in 1907, 
>both prior to the "interurban" operation coming on line.  This lends 
>credence to the argument advanced last week that the 4000 series (1910) 
>were numbered thus because of a radical design change.  However, it could 
>also be debated that now that it was on line, the "interurban" operation 
>picked up with the 3600's (also 1910), that series grouping having been 
>vacated by the "city" operation's order for the 4000's.
>	Anyone have an explanation for 3556 (debatedly 1915)?
>


Didn't have car roster handy, so went to Bob Dettrick's South Hills Jct. 
site for following:

4000 ordered in 1909 and were first group of steel cars
3600 ordered in 1910 and are listed as wood interurbans.
4100 ordered in 1911 and were second group of steel cars.

Looks like PRC used 3550s for "one of" cars for few years.  Then changed 
their mind and used 6000-6002 for experimentals.  Then changed their minds 
again and used 100 for first PCC.





>
>The 3750's preceded the 5500's by more than a year -- from an order date, 
>could the 3750's have preceded the 5400's and thus be the "missing" 5300's? 
>  Or could the original order for 5300's, had there been one, have been 
>cancelled in favor of the 3750's?
>
>I have always felt that the 3750's were indeed a "hedge" or, at least, an 
>experiment, a temporary expedient, to reduce the excessive operating costs 
>incurred by the 3600's. They had standard city car bodies with 
>double-stream doors when all other interurbans (PCC's excepted) had 
>single-stream doors.



Might be because Bethel Park, Mt. Lebanon and Castle Shannon were beginning 
to develop as suburban communities.

Also, what is life expectancy of wooden interurban cars?  Perhaps, rather 
then rebuild two-man 3600s, the one-man steel 3800s were purchased. Just a 
(wild) guess.

And one final question for the trivia fans.  So what were the initial cars 
assigned to Charleroi-Pittsburgh service???

_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com