[PRCo] Re: West Penn Cars at PTM

Thu Nov 8 15:33:47 EST 2001

>Fred W. Schneider III commented:
>
>I'm suggesting that we be capable of recreating 1900 or 1920, and how
>people lived, and why they used the trolley, and why they went shopping
>for perishable groceries at the corner store every day (because
>refrigerators were a 1930s thing), why you rode the trolley to work
>instead of your horse (old Dobbin didn't like standing in the sun for
>twelve hours like your car does) and why twelve hours (because it was
>simply accepted that people worked 60 to 80 hours a week).

People didn't ride the trolley to work instead of a horse.  They rode the 
trolley to work because the alternative was walking.

People who rode the trolley could not afford a horse, and besides, would not 
have anyplace to store one (unless reference is to interurban lines).

Cities were congested beyond the comprehension of people today.  But I 
suspect trolleys florished because of several factors:  expanding 
industrialization created high job concentrations, some labor shortages 
helped create better incomes around turn of century, and the start of 
suburban development, such as Oakland, Homewood and Perrysville Ave. (check 
the want ads for Pittsburgh newspapers, circa 1904.  Also there were a lot 
of boarding houses that have now been replaced by apartment complexes - 
browse census data for circa 1880 and 1900).

As for refrigeration, there was a ice house still in business in late 1950s 
adjacent to PRR near Wilkinsburg-Edgewood boundry.  It was coin operated, 
but don't remember if block of ice or bag of ice cubes was dispensed.  Ice 
box came first, then mechanical refrigeration (such as kitchen refrigerators 
of today).

And that
>they used the trolley to go to the cemetery on Sunday afternoon to lay
>flowers on Aunt Matilda's grave because that is just the thing you did
>on Sunday.

Bottom land was valuable for both housing and industry (because railroads 
followed the rivers).  The cemetaries around Pittsburgh's city churches are 
small, with tombstones from only early 1800s.  Trinity Cathedral would be 
good example.   I had some relatives living in 7th ward around what is now 
Civic Arena in mid-late 1800s.  That's why they were 'planted' in Allegheny 
Cemetery in Lawrenceville dist.  So I guess they took 'the cable' to visit 
Uncle George. (and 17 others who must have been stacked like cord wood).

And I'm suggesting that, if needed, we even have people with
>props on the car ... the lady with flowers who gets off at the grave
>yard and the woman with a live chicken for dinner (caged of course), and
>the kid who gets on the car to peddle newspapers.

I'll have to check what was available at Market Square stores.  Yes, I like 
the newspaper bit.

>
>Or am I not making sense?
>
>

Your making sense, Fred.

>
>Edward G Skuchas wrote:
> >
>
>
> > I am also a member at Seashore.  They evidently had a meeting of trolley 
>museum reps to discuss the future.  I believe that they had a professional 
>museum type there who led discussions about what people expect to see at a 
>museum and what museums should do to attract and keep visitors.  The result 
>is what I think of when some people are having guests at their house.  The 
>place is cleaned, dirty laundry is cleaned up off the kid's room floor, 
>toys are put away, the best china is put on the table.  You want to impress 
>someone.  So Seashore finally put in the loop at the end of the line and 
>put in a little park.  The nicest cars run.  The operators talk nicely and 
>have good manners.  The cars are put in storage barns.  Only display barns 
>are open.  The rare trucks are pulled out of the mud and weeds and put in a 
>warehouse or storage container.  The weeds are cleaned up, lawn mowed and 
>flowers planted.  Nice bathrooms, reasonable food.
> > What we see when we look at our rare West Penn shells and other items is 
>not what the paying customer's see.  I think Arden has a great plan with 
>the display barn and museum and the longer ride.  As with any museum or 
>business, you don't make the money with just one visit, you want repeat 
>customers and their influence to others to come.
> > And then all of the museums must develop and educate the next wave of 
>volunteers who will have to take over for the current group.  And that new 
>group did not live with the trolley cars as some of the older members have.
> >
> > Edward G. Skuchas, PE
> > Parsons Energy & Chemical Group
> > edward.g.skuchas at parsons.com <mailto:edward.g.skuchas at parsons.com>
> > The Berkshire Car Shop
> > eskuchas at home.com <mailto:eskuchas at home.com>
> > Importer of St. Petersburg Tram Collection models.
> > The trolley modelers source for all manufacturer's parts, kits, cars, 
>videos, books.
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: John Swindler
> > Sent: Thursday, November 08, 2001 10:11 AM
> > To: pittsburgh-railways at dementia.org
> > Subject: [PRCo] Re: West Penn Cars at PTM
> >
> > >Greg King replied:
> > >
> > >
> > >Hi John,
> > >
> > >I'll send it next pay day, you know we Motormen are so well paid down
> > >here!!!!
> > >
> > >However, point taken, at least it's saved and who knows, maybe someday
> > >someone will have the money.
> > >
> > >Greg
> >
> > Gosh, Greg, I'm still trying to catch up with the pay scale for janitors 
>on
> > BARTD. (they are up in the high 20s/hr - and that doesn't include 
>overtime.)
> >   And didn't the New York MTA have some employees making close to 
>$100,000 a
> > year a while back??
> >
> > As for my comments, guess I'm trying to ask: what would be the cost to
> > recreate the necessary hardware to bring a 'chicken coop' back to 
>life????
> > I've heard figures of around $100,000 for just 27G truck frames from the
> > Edmonton trolley museum group.  (And in Los Angeles, a couple PE 950s 
>are
> > coming in around $800,000 plus.)  Then there are motors, controllers, 
>brake
> > system, and the time, effort and skills necessary to install this 
>equipment.
> >   Because even if the hardware were available, who would do the work???
> >
> > By comparison, what is the level of metal working skills and carpenter
> > skills needed to bring a 'chicken coop' back to a "stuffed and mounted"
> > display state??  I suspect considerably less then restoration to 
>operating
> > condition.  Maybe 2,3 or even 5-1 ratio.  That is, since resources are
> > limited, would it be possible to "stuff and mount" five cars for the 
>same
> > cost and resources as restoring one to operating condition???
> >
> > PTM suffers the fate of far too many other trolley museums in that the
> > public is exposed to a junk collection.  One piece of junk is ok, as an
> > example of 'before'.  Two pieces of junk is inexcusable.  Visit other
> > museums outside the railfan area.  How you judge those museums is how 
>the
> > public judges us.
> >
> > Therefore, as but just one PTM member's opinion, my vote would be to
> > prioritize use of available restoration resources to get rid of the 
>'chicken
> > coop' collection in the passing siding area first (through either 
>"stuffing
> > and mounting", de-accession, or hide elsewhere), before even thinking of
> > directing resources towards any long term restoration. Of course, if 
>someone
> > wants to write out a check............
> >
> > Again, just one distant member's unpopular opinion.
> >
> > John
> >
> > > >
> > > > Thank you, Greg, for your generous offer of $1.2 million (US) to 
>rebuild
> > > > West Penn 739 as an operating car.  When can Ed expect your check??
> > > >
> > > > Sorry about the sarcasm, which will continue, but why would anyone 
>want
> > >to
> > > > rebuild West Penn 739 - or several other cars - as operating pieces 
>of
> > > > equipment??  Because anything that is operated is a liability.  It
> > >suffers
> > > > continual wear and tear.
> > > >
> > > > How many operating cars are required for a demonstration electric
> > >railway???
> > > >
> > > > At one extreme are the advocates of trying to restore everything to
> > > > operating condition.
> > > >
> > > > At the other extreme is a position that everything at a trolley 
>museum
> > >could
> > > > be "stuffed and mounted" exhibits, such as the B&O Museum, for 
>instance,
> > >and
> > > > then buy some Gomaco products to provide the demonstration electric
> > >railway.
> > > >   I use that last term because PTM is claiming to be a non-profit
> > > > educational organization, and not a club.
> > > >
> > > > A compromise in between may be the best use of available resources 
>and
> > >allow
> > > > for the elimination of the greatest number of 'chicken coops' from a
> > > > property.
> > > >
> > > > Just a biased opinion.
> > > >
> > > > John
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> > _________________________________________________________________
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