[PRCo] Re: West Penn Cars at PTM

[Fred W. Schneider III]

I'm smiling.  I have had quite a few primary and pre-school groups at
the Baltimore Streetcar Museum.  I've been pretty good at prompting them
to tell me that the Witt reminded them of a school bus ... a good way to
lead it to "It was Grandma's School Bus."  Of course at that age, give a
kid a chance to ring a bell, and they're happy.  

Edward G Skuchas wrote:
> 
> I like the period presentation idea.  People need to know WHY.  We are already telling them the what, where, when, but they do not get the feeling or understanding of the WHY.  (My general theory to write a report, resolve an issue, explain an issue is to answer who, what, when, where, why, how far, how long...  Answering those questions presents a complete story.  The presentation of the actors/operators will complete the issue.  To be perfectly frank, people are willing to pay more for a more complete presentation, so you can cover costs.
> 
> Along a similar vein, my niece was watching the model trolleys run around on the layout in the basement.  She interpreted the long interurban in her frame of reference.  When it came by her on the tracks, she said to her father, "Look Daddy, school bus!"  That's all she knew and was exposed to, so that's what it got called.  So the adults told her about the trolley school bus, and she understood.
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Edward G. Skuchas, PE
> Parsons Energy & Chemical Group
> edward.g.skuchas at parsons.com <mailto:edward.g.skuchas at parsons.com>
> The Berkshire Car Shop
> eskuchas at home.com <mailto:eskuchas at home.com>
> Importer of St. Petersburg Tram Collection models.
> The trolley modelers source for all manufacturer's parts, kits, cars, videos, books.
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Fred W. Schneider III
> Sent: Thursday, November 08, 2001 2:52 PM
> To: pittsburgh-railways at dementia.org
> Subject: [PRCo] Re: West Penn Cars at PTM
> 
> Ed:
> 
> Glad to hear that Seashore is trying to get a grip on it.  The fear of
> bankruptcy does have the ability to wake up some people.
> 
> Some of the things they probably still need to learn (and so do most
> museums) is that their crews should be straight out of central casting.
> They should understand how to run a car but they also need to be actors
> right out of 1920, or 1930, or 1900, whatever.  They also need to
> understand that the public doesn't want to know that this car has 4 101B
> motors and K35 control and straight air valves and a DH16 compressor and
> that it was built in 1915, and that it ran on property A until 1922,
> then on property B, and then that we bought it in 1951 ... are you
> throughly bored yet?  If not we can keep trying.
> 
> I'm suggesting that we be capable of recreating 1900 or 1920, and how
> people lived, and why they used the trolley, and why they went shopping
> for perishable groceries at the corner store every day (because
> refrigerators were a 1930s thing), why you rode the trolley to work
> instead of your horse (old Dobbin didn't like standing in the sun for
> twelve hours like your car does) and why twelve hours (because it was
> simply accepted that people worked 60 to 80 hours a week).  And that
> they used the trolley to go to the cemetery on Sunday afternoon to lay
> flowers on Aunt Matilda's grave because that is just the thing you did
> on Sunday.  And I'm suggesting that, if needed, we even have people with
> props on the car ... the lady with flowers who gets off at the grave
> yard and the woman with a live chicken for dinner (caged of course), and
> the kid who gets on the car to peddle newspapers.
> 
> Or am I not making sense?
> 
> Edward G Skuchas wrote:
> >
> 
> > I am also a member at Seashore.  They evidently had a meeting of trolley museum reps to discuss the future.  I believe that they had a professional museum type there who led discussions about what people expect to see at a museum and what museums should do to attract and keep visitors.  The result is what I think of when some people are having guests at their house.  The place is cleaned, dirty laundry is cleaned up off the kid's room floor, toys are put away, the best china is put on the table.  You want to impress someone.  So Seashore finally put in the loop at the end of the line and put in a little park.  The nicest cars run.  The operators talk nicely and have good manners.  The cars are put in storage barns.  Only display barns are open.  The rare trucks are pulled out of the mud and weeds and put in a warehouse or storage container.  The weeds are cleaned up, lawn mowed and flowers planted.  Nice bathrooms, reasonable food.
> > What we see when we look at our rare West Penn shells and other items is not what the paying customer's see.  I think Arden has a great plan with the display barn and museum and the longer ride.  As with any museum or business, you don't make the money with just one visit, you want repeat customers and their influence to others to come.
> > And then all of the museums must develop and educate the next wave of volunteers who will have to take over for the current group.  And that new group did not live with the trolley cars as some of the older members have.
> >
> > Edward G. Skuchas, PE
> > Parsons Energy & Chemical Group
> > edward.g.skuchas at parsons.com <mailto:edward.g.skuchas at parsons.com>
> > The Berkshire Car Shop
> > eskuchas at home.com <mailto:eskuchas at home.com>
> > Importer of St. Petersburg Tram Collection models.
> > The trolley modelers source for all manufacturer's parts, kits, cars, videos, books.
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: John Swindler
> > Sent: Thursday, November 08, 2001 10:11 AM
> > To: pittsburgh-railways at dementia.org
> > Subject: [PRCo] Re: West Penn Cars at PTM
> >
> > >Greg King replied:
> > >
> > >
> > >Hi John,
> > >
> > >I'll send it next pay day, you know we Motormen are so well paid down
> > >here!!!!
> > >
> > >However, point taken, at least it's saved and who knows, maybe someday
> > >someone will have the money.
> > >
> > >Greg
> >
> > Gosh, Greg, I'm still trying to catch up with the pay scale for janitors on
> > BARTD. (they are up in the high 20s/hr - and that doesn't include overtime.)
> >   And didn't the New York MTA have some employees making close to $100,000 a
> > year a while back??
> >
> > As for my comments, guess I'm trying to ask: what would be the cost to
> > recreate the necessary hardware to bring a 'chicken coop' back to life????
> > I've heard figures of around $100,000 for just 27G truck frames from the
> > Edmonton trolley museum group.  (And in Los Angeles, a couple PE 950s are
> > coming in around $800,000 plus.)  Then there are motors, controllers, brake
> > system, and the time, effort and skills necessary to install this equipment.
> >   Because even if the hardware were available, who would do the work???
> >
> > By comparison, what is the level of metal working skills and carpenter
> > skills needed to bring a 'chicken coop' back to a "stuffed and mounted"
> > display state??  I suspect considerably less then restoration to operating
> > condition.  Maybe 2,3 or even 5-1 ratio.  That is, since resources are
> > limited, would it be possible to "stuff and mount" five cars for the same
> > cost and resources as restoring one to operating condition???
> >
> > PTM suffers the fate of far too many other trolley museums in that the
> > public is exposed to a junk collection.  One piece of junk is ok, as an
> > example of 'before'.  Two pieces of junk is inexcusable.  Visit other
> > museums outside the railfan area.  How you judge those museums is how the
> > public judges us.
> >
> > Therefore, as but just one PTM member's opinion, my vote would be to
> > prioritize use of available restoration resources to get rid of the 'chicken
> > coop' collection in the passing siding area first (through either "stuffing
> > and mounting", de-accession, or hide elsewhere), before even thinking of
> > directing resources towards any long term restoration. Of course, if someone
> > wants to write out a check............
> >
> > Again, just one distant member's unpopular opinion.
> >
> > John
> >
> > > >
> > > > Thank you, Greg, for your generous offer of $1.2 million (US) to rebuild
> > > > West Penn 739 as an operating car.  When can Ed expect your check??
> > > >
> > > > Sorry about the sarcasm, which will continue, but why would anyone want
> > >to
> > > > rebuild West Penn 739 - or several other cars - as operating pieces of
> > > > equipment??  Because anything that is operated is a liability.  It
> > >suffers
> > > > continual wear and tear.
> > > >
> > > > How many operating cars are required for a demonstration electric
> > >railway???
> > > >
> > > > At one extreme are the advocates of trying to restore everything to
> > > > operating condition.
> > > >
> > > > At the other extreme is a position that everything at a trolley museum
> > >could
> > > > be "stuffed and mounted" exhibits, such as the B&O Museum, for instance,
> > >and
> > > > then buy some Gomaco products to provide the demonstration electric
> > >railway.
> > > >   I use that last term because PTM is claiming to be a non-profit
> > > > educational organization, and not a club.
> > > >
> > > > A compromise in between may be the best use of available resources and
> > >allow
> > > > for the elimination of the greatest number of 'chicken coops' from a
> > > > property.
> > > >
> > > > Just a biased opinion.
> > > >
> > > > John
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> > _________________________________________________________________
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