[PRCo] Fwd: SPTC Models

Mon Dec 9 16:07:00 EST 2002

Good Morning!

	This email from Fred was forwarded to Leonid and here is his response:

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""Hello Jim,""

""Thank you for sending me this E-Mail. We also will do some correction
on the further serial models according to Fred Schneider message. In any
case, we are very glad the he so enjoy his model.""

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	SPTC uses information from a variety of sources to 
*Make--Their--Decisions*  about models, be it paint or otherwise;   NO 
ONE  individual supplies it all.    (This is true of All Projects,
Exclusive Distribution or Otherwise.)    I worked with PTM about the
colors, mentioned to Leonid that it was felt these colors are 
*too--orange,*  and let Leonid work from there.    Here is a quoted
comment from myself to Leonid about the Low-Floor Color project::

          ""A Challenge for the orange  --  if the viewer can ask:
           "Is that Yellow or is it Orange?"  on the low-floor cars,
            the color is successful.   You Know how railfans can be
            about colors!""

	I personally took quite a drubbing on this list about the
PRCo-1700--series colors  --  being charged with supplying false
information, not doing proper research, etc.    And even after posting a
long list of information to show that I supplied color original-paint
photos, latter day photos, PTM-paint chip equivalents, etc. I was still
not believed.    But SPTC Themselves had found that the Original colors
were from DuPont and the PRCo--RePaint colors were obtained locally from
Hall, I believe.    The PTM color on 1711 at that time (it has since
been repainted) were the RePaint Colors, Not Original Delivery.

	But the decisions were made by SPTC and I supplied them with both
colors, Original and RePaint, In Spite of False Charges to the contrary.

	In Reality, part of our In-Humanity is that we are Never Satisfied and
I see color disputes for any trolleycar system under discussion!!~:)

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OFF--TOPIC::    ----    But Speaking of Colors...

	Fred wrote and asked, or mentioned, the *New* Gray colors presently
being used on Muni equipment.    It was stated that we needed a
consistent image.    We  HAD  that image before the Bredas, so why not
repaint the Bredas instead of the rest of the fleet?    My Divisional
JLMB Worksite Committee put together a letter, included information
supplied by John C. Swindler (and credit to same) about the change from
green to Orange on WP, information about the Home-Town White Front Cars,
Postal change from blue to White, etc. and the improved accident records
as a result of more visible equipment.

	We also included the enclosed photo (URL will show at the very end of
this email) taken by Presidio Trolley Coach driver Robert Parks in this
package of information.    Will be interesting to wee what happens.

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-------- Original Message --------
Subject: [PRCo] SPTC Models
Date: Fri, 06 Dec 2002 19:23:00 -0500
From: Fred Schneider <fschnei at supernet.com>
Reply-To: pittsburgh-railways at dementia.org
To: pittsburgh-railways at dementia.org

This was sent earlier today and bounced because I have fat fingers
(according to Derrick).

Open letter to Jim Holland:

Send to Leonid if you think it proper.

For those of you who have not ordered a St. Petersburg model of a
Pittsburgh low-floor car ... they are everything I had hoped for and a
little more.    Leonid and his gang did a great job.

The orange paint is just as I remembered it from the 1940s and early
1950s ... a yellowish orange and not the orange that Bob Brown preached
was correct at Arden.   I've never been successfully able to argue at
PTM that the color had more yellow in it than the orange on West Penn
cars and the later orange on PRC / PAT work cars.  I've always been told
by Bob's followers  it was more yellow because the orange or red in the
vat faded over time.  Surprising that with inks, the yellow always goes
first turning your book to magenta!  Interesting that paint pigments
would behave differently.  I'm trying to suggest that they didn't fade,
and that there really was more yellow than on work cars.  At any rate,
the cars are great.  And they look as proper as possible.  The white on
the lower end of the trolley pole should be metallic silver ... probably
put there to improve conductivity between the pole and the base.

One of the few things I would nitpick is the clear plastic over the side
sign that looks, in the model, like glass.  They were simply painted
steel plates which got dirty and seldom if ever looked shiny.  If
protection is needed, a dull coat of photographic print spray might do
the trick.

My 5440 comes with a conductors stand at the center door -- that is as
built for Pittsburgh Railways (these were center entrance cars, not
Peter Witts).    I never gave it a thought that the interior would be so
detailed when I ordered it. .  I can no doubt remove it to get to the
1940s configuration.  I think, if anyone is ordering a 5500, that they
never had provision for two-man operation.  Now the conflict ... all of
the cars have a stop light on the rear just below the belt rail and that
probably was never on a two-man car.  The as-built configuration had a
red marker light on the rear in the letterboard over the center window. 
The stop light under the belt rail was added when cars were converted to
high speed machines circa 1930.

This all goes back to the fact that motor vehicle registrations in
Pennsylvania grew by staggering proportions from 1920 to 1930 ... from
slightly more than 500,000 autos and trucks in 1920 to over than 1.5
million ten years later.    There were not enough automobiles on the
roads to worry about when the first low-floor motor cars were built in
1916.  By 1930 auto-trolley accidents were happening right and left.  To
make it worse, most autos only had two-wheel brakes.  When PRC speeded
up the cars circa 1930 it was imperative that something be done to
reduce rear end collisions.  So the stop light actuated by a pressure
switch in the brake pipe was added.  And what about the incongruity
between two-man cars and stop lights?  Pittsburgh Railways was one of
the earliest major transit operators in the nation to convert to one-man
operation ... heavy routes were being converted to one-man cars in the
early to middle 1920s.  I'm not positive but I doubt that there were
many conductors out there when the high speed program was underway.  I
have no documents to prove it. The high speed notes only say what was
added to cars, but I would not be surprised if the conductor's stands
were also removed at that time.  More proof is needed.

What the cars need is a conversion kit that includes brass trucks and
under floor motors, a working trolley pole, suggestions on how to run a
fine wire from the pole to the motors, and a selection of people for the
inside (these could be unpainted).  They are too good to remain as
bookcase models.   We also need a small can of paint that mixes rust and
mud to paint those new brass side frames and wheels!

<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>

James B. Holland

Holland  Electric  Railway  Operation....... 
___"O"--Scale St.-Petersburg Trams Company Trolleycars and...
______"O"--Scale  Parts  mailto:pghpcc at pacbell.net

______Pennsylvania Trolley Museum http://www.pa-trolley.org/
___Pittsburgh  Railways  Company  (PRCo),   1930  --  1950
N.M.R.A.  Life member #2190; http://www.nmra.org

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