[PRCo] PRR station

[Bob Rathke]

Even though the PRR was merged into Penn Central in 1968, people in
Pittsburgh continued to call the main station there, the "Pennsylvania"
station.   Today, it may be the "Amtrak" station, but a lot of people still
refer to it as the "Pennsylvania Station."

Amtrak's pre-fab ticket office/waiting room "buildings" disappeared from the
trasck platforms by 1990 when the new permanent Amtrak facility on Liberty
Avenue opened.

Amtrak service through Pittsbugh actually increased in the late 1990s to
three round trips between the East and Chicago, but today there are only two
roundrtrips to Chicago: the Three Rivers from New York City and the Capitol
Limited from Washington, D.C.  The third train from the East - the
Pennsylvanian - now terminates in Pittsburgh.

Bob 12/28/03

-----------------------------
----- Original Message -----
From: "Fred Schneider" <fschnei at supernet.com>
To: <pittsburgh-railways at dementia.org>
Sent: Sunday, December 28, 2003 8:41 PM
Subject: [PRCo] Re: 44-KNOXVILLE


> Paste from Boris:  PRR station wasn't closed in late 60s as Bob Rathke
pointed
> out but PRR, the
> company itself dissolved in 1968. Thus no reason for PRCo streetcars to
> carry PRR destination sign.
> But the other question still remains unanswered - date when was the 44
> downtown loop changed. And reason.  End of Paste from Boris.
>
> The merger of the Pennsylvania Railroad and the New York Central Railroad
and
> the New York, New Haven and Hartford Railroad to form the Penn Central
> Transportation Co. in 1968 had nothing to do, Boris, with the dropping of
the
> PRR Station name from streetcar destination sign rolls.  The fact is the
cars
> were not run there because no one chose to ride them.   Pittsburgh
Railways
> Company was a privately-owned stockholder corporation that needed to make
money
> in order to attract capital.
>
> The station facility was and still is there.  Trains stopped in Pittsburgh
every
> year.  The number of trains diminished year by year.  Pittsburgh had a ver
y
> extensive commuter service ... probably every half hour on the main line
east
> and perhaps hourly or less on the other routes.  The Pennsy ran east to
> Greensburg and Derry, south to Brownsville, southwest to Washington, west
to
> some place on the St. Louis Line, west on the Chicago line, northeast on
both
> sides of the Allegheny River.  Without a complete stack of timetables, I
cannot
> trace it year to year.  However, I can with 100% assurance state that a
> rudimentary service ... one in and out each day from Schenley and Kiski
Jct.,
> something down toward Emsworth, and some morning and afternoon mainline
east
> trains were running into early 1964 and they continued until the
Pennsylvania
> Railroad determined that PAT was lying about providing subsidies.  Those
trains
> quit late in 1964.  At that time the PRR still had a reasonably strong New
York
> - Chicago, New York St. Louis, New York - Cincinnati and New York or
> Philadelphia to Pittsburgh service.  The PRR revenues were enhanced by a
lot of
> shipments on passenger trains in cars owned by the Railway Express Agency.
> Example:  in the middle 1960s the St. Louisan (trains 32 and 33) was still
> running ... but once Railway Express Agency was dissolved, that train went
from
> two coaches and 20 or so express cars to two dirty 40-year old coaches and
no
> headend cars.   By the time Penn Central came along, the service was
largely
> unused.  I think that, until Amtrak (1971), Penn Central was still running
at
> least two trains a day from New York to Chicago, the Spirit of St. Louis,
> perhaps the Penn-Texas to and from St. Louis, and I think there was still
one
> New York and Pittsburgh day train.  I came out of Philly one night in 1969
on
> the Pittsburgh Night Express, so I know it was still running that late.
>
> With the formation of Amtrak, Pittsburgh (Union Station) still had one St.
Louis
> and New York train named the National Limited (the old B&O name) and a New
York
> and Chicago train named the Broadway Limited.  The St. Louis train
disappeared
> sometime in the middle 1970s ... it was a pitiful excuse for a train.  The
line
> across Indiana and Illinois was so woebegone that it was simply peppered
with 10
> mph slow orders.  In 1974 I drove to the west coast ... left Lancaster
after
> dinner one evening.  Got to Columbus and checked into a Holiday Inn.  Got
up the
> next morning, had breakfast, and got back on I-70.  Somewhere out near
> Effingham, Illinois the next afternoon, I overtook the previous night's
National
> Limited lurching along at 20 mph across Illinois.  Remember, it ran all
night
> and I had eight hours sleep in a motel.  I think it was gone by 1975.  I
think
> that the day train from Pittsburgh to Philly may have been removed from
the
> schedules in 1971 but I know it was later restored.
>
> There always was a train station of some sort at Liberty, 11th and Grant
Sts. in
> Pittsburgh and there still is. The question is simply, Boris, what is
Union
> Station.   The office building was turned into an apartment and a prefab
> building (I've never seen it but it was described as a mobile home by one
> person) was put up behind the old office / station building by Amtrash.
That
> was mentioned in one of the e-mails I read today.
>
> And what connection did the PRC 44 Knoxville - PRR Station  and 7 Charles
St. -
> PRR Station lines have to do with whether the station was open or not, and
the
> answer is none.   It also had nothing to do with who ran the trains.
Looping
> those lines at the station, especially route 7 which went blocks out of
its way,
> had nothning to do with the presence of a station.  It had to do with the
number
> of passengers who cared to ride to the station.  This isn't Europe.  By
the
> 1960s there was no longer any need to route certain trolley routes to the
> station.  The precious few people who had to go there could transfer to an
87 or
> 88 car or a Butler Street bus or perhaps a Spring Hill bus.  The places
people
> went had become the US Steel Building, Gateway Center, the Koppers
Building, the
> PPG Tower more recently, but no one was going to the station to catch a
train.
> You don't run a trolley every 20 minutes to a train station to service
four
> trains a day.  And you don't waste money changing destination signs from
PRR
> STATION to PC STATION to AMTRAK STATION ... you do that when the signs
rolls
> become torn and need to be replaced.
>
> If you have not had this next point explained to you yet, it is time.
European
> cities are much more densely settled than American cities.  You folks
started
> out with horses or mules or feet.  The butcher, the baker, and the
candlestick
> maker had to all be within walking distance.  Cities with broad avenues
such as
> Karlsruhe, Germany are exceptions to the rule.  It is precisely the
opposite
> over here.  Only Boston's Hub and Lower Manhattan, New York City, resemble
the
> mold of old European cities.  (Boston goes back to the 1600s.)  The
remainder
> had much wider streets because the land was there and undeveloped.  Most
of our
> southern and western cities were developed from the beginning for use by
> automobiles.  Our two largest western cities only go back 150 years.  Most
of
> the development in the Los Angeles area goes back only to 1942 ... the
cities
> around it were just rural towns before that.  Hollywood was absorbed into
Los
> Angeles only in 1918.  San Jose, California had about 60,000 people when
the
> trolley lines were abandoned before World War II and close to 1 million
people
> today.  We grew up with the motor car or machine and we loved it.  We
built our
> cities to accommodate it.  Or so we thought.  It is strangling us now but
we are
> unwilling to admit it.   The result is, a city of 50,000 people in the
United
> States takes as much space as a city of 100,000 or maybe even 125,000 in
the
> same space (same number of square kilometers) in Europe.  The City of
Pittsburgh
> maxed out at about 650,000 people and now has fewer than 400,000
residents.  If
> it were in Germany, there would be 2 million people in the same space.
The
> differences in population density does a lot to explain why transit works
in
> Europe and does not work the same way here.
>
> Our term Union Station, meaning a united facility used by several
> privately-owned railroads, bears no resemblance to the European concept of
a
> Hauptbahnhof or Gare Centrale.  It never did.  It is closer in concept to
the
> stations in London, where each railroad had its own station ... and now
merge
> two or three of them into one but leave the others. (Same thought works
for
> Berlin or Paris.)   Union simply means a facility for more than one
railroad.
> And in the case of Pittsburgh it means a union of the Pennsylvania
Railroad and
> two or three of its subsidiary companies.
>
> It has been a long time since it mattered if public transport served our
train
> stations in the United States except for 4th and Townsend in San
Francisco, Los
> Angeles Union Passenger Terminal, Central and Union and Randolph St.
stations in
> Chicago, North and South stations in Boston, Washington Union Station, New
> York's Grand Central and Penn Station station, and Philadelphia.  And
since the
> Center City Commuter Tunnel was built in Philadelphia, the railroad has
become
> its own distributor system, with every train serving three downtown
stations so
> there is now little relevance for the bus and subway connections.
>
> This can be summed up with a simple point about how Americans get around.
City
> buses are for the poor.  Buses are for those who have no money to buy a
car.
> They are for those people who have had their licenses suspended for
drunken
> driving (if they care about following the court's rules).  In some cases
> teenagers may use them, but most demand that their mothers drive them
around.
> City streetcars (in Philadelphia) are also for the poor.  The subways are
mostly
> for the poor and lower-middle class, especially in older cities like
Chicago,
> Boston and Philadelphia.  We maintain this infrastructure largely for the
poor
> and elderly; the rest of us have steel boxes on rubber tires.  Suburban
commuter
> trains are middle and upper-middle class means of conveyance, but the jobs
need
> to be near the train stations.  If there is any distance to go after they
get
> off the train, then they drive into the city in their automobiles.  They
do not
> use buses to get from the station to work.  Most of the very wealthy
probably
> stay out of the trains and use their own cars ... if you can afford a
Cadillac,
> Lincoln, Mercedes or Rolls, you don't fret about paying to park it.  You
will
> have your own assigned parking space.  I would have to go back and
research the
> numbers (and you can do it too on www.census.gov), but I think the 2000
census
> shows about 99 percent of the U. S. people using automobiles to commute to
work
> and 1 percent using public transportation.  Some of the newer light-rail
and
> subway projects are more like railroads in the sense that they reach into
the
> middle-class suburbs, and as a result they haul disproportionate rush hour
> loads.
>
> And this is not what railfans talk about.
>
> Fred Schneider
>
> Boris Cefer wrote:
>
> > > > Jim Holland wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > > From the latter URL above Boris had written to me asking if the
> > > PRR loop was terminated and 44-line cars looped from inbound to
> > > outbound by making a left from Smithfield onto Liberty.    I had
> > > thought the same for same reasons  --  the station sign being
> > > blanked out.
> > > .......But, from responses, PRR-station was not closed but was
> > > still operational.    So.......
> >
> > .......So, seems to me I have found an answer!
> > PRR station wasn't closed in late 60s as Bob Rathke pointed out but PRR,
the
> > company itself dissolved in 1968. Thus no reason for PRCo streetcars to
> > carry PRR destination sign.
> > But the other question still remains unanswered - date when was the 44
> > downtown loop changed. And reason.
> >
> > Boris
>
>
>