[PRCo] Re: Latrobe

[Edward H. Lybarger]

This is the kind of discussion I like!  Since I have no personal knowledge
of the Latrobe track, I've used such references as were available.  As Fred
will tell you, though, I suspect everything!  So it's clearly not an offense
if someone finds evidence that contradicts what I've written down...I'm the
first one who wants to know it.

I've located a couple additional references.  The first is page 14 of
Latrobe: 100 Years (1954), which has a photo looking west on Depot street
across Ligonier Street, and which I apparently field-checked on December 12,
1996.  The track on Depot crosses the track on Ligonier, but there is also a
switch to the south connecting the two.  So we know the Depot track
continued west of Ligonier and that there was a connection here.

The second is a copy of the city map from West Penn's map book.  The tracing
is so faint than the lines didn't copy, so I marked it with yellow marker
which is not very visible, either.  The lines appear to differ from the
photo described above, and I want to pull the original blueprint tomorrow
for better visibilty. This map shows the track to the old carbarn, which is
located on the topo at or near the building outline on the west side of
Jefferson just north of the west end of Walnut.  The new carbarn was built
in 1928; whether West Penn went that far north before the barn's
construction I do not know.

Obviously a copy of the charter for Latrobe Street Railway would help here,
as well as one for Westmoreland County.  These may perhaps be found at the
Westmoreland County Recorder of Deeds office, if one has time to go there
(I'm not halfway done in Fayette, let alone started Westmoreland!).  And a
review of Latrobe ordinances would probably be simple enough, too.  LSR was
chartered 8-7-99, and began operation in 1900 as far south as Kingston, so
it would have been in place before the railroad overpasses were.

Depending on what I copied (it's not here at home, either), we may also need
to go back to the PUC for a rereading of Docket A24319.

I think this information is probably out there, and that a lot of what Bob
says is logical.  We'll just have to go find it.

Thanks for the interpretation, Bob.  More on this after I've looked at the
(more-or-less) legible map.

Ed

-----Original Message-----
From: pittsburgh-railways-bounce at lists.dementia.org
[mailto:pittsburgh-railways-bounce at lists.dementia.org]On Behalf Of
robert netzlof
Sent: Friday, February 07, 2003 1:53 PM
To: pittsburgh-railways at dementia.org
Subject: [PRCo] Re: Latrobe



--- "Edward H. Lybarger" <twg at pulsenet.com> wrote:
>
> The routing in downtown Latrobe at various times is not entirely
> clear to
> me. In the abandonment petition, there is discussion of a 1929
> ordinance
> which allowed the company "to discontinue their service on Thompson
> Street
> from Alexandria Street to Jefferson Street and up Jefferson Street
> to Main
> Street and up Main Street to the intersection of Ligonier
> Street..."  That's
> why that routing is on my map.  I have to presume that the company
> knew
> where it ran.  Was there in fact a loop originally, with only the
> eastern
> half used at the very end?

This is about the 5th draft. All have suffered from wandering off
"down memory lane" with consequent loss of focus. In what follows,
I'll write in terms of "what I think is wrong with your map", not
because I want to attack anything or anyone, but simply to maintain
focus in what I'm saying.

If I follow the map latrobe.xxx correctly, you have drawn WCRy track
entering Latrobe from the east on Derry St., continuing onto Thompson
(the two meet at that pointy intersection east of the
Alexandria/Thompson intersection) to Jefferson, south on Jefferson to
Main, east on Main to Ligonier and there it ends.

I claim there were tracks east of Ligonier on Main, and on Alexandria
between Main and Thompson.

First, the photo mainst-latrobe.xxx shows a car on Main St in the
block east of Ligonier. It also shows tracks in the intersection of
Main and Ligonier with no suggestion of anything other than a simple
crossing. I'm quite sure of the location, as a distinctive building
(Mozart Hall), still extant in Latrobe, is visible in the photo.

Second, I did see (at the local historical society, I think) a photo
looking westward on Main from a point near Alexandria, in which a
trolley wire is visible over Main Street.

Third, decades ago, when Alexandria Street was paved with brick and
Thompson St east of Alexandria was officially unpaved, there were
rails embedded in the pacement at the corner of Alexandria and
Thompson. They were curved, consistent with at track coming north on
Alexandria curving east on to Thompson.

What I had been told back then was that "the street cars from Derry
used to come into town, run south on Alexandria to Depot, west on
Depot to Jefferson, south on Jefferson to Main, east on Main to
Alexandria, north on Alexandria to Depot and on back to Derry the way
they came".

That does not jibe with the ordinance. As I consider the source of
what I just wrote, and recall that it has been a bit over a 1/2
century since I was told it, I'm not going to insist on what I said,
other than to say that I certainly believe there was a loop, although
it may not have been the loop I recited above.

Suppose the original route was Derry St/Thompson St to Jefferson,
Jefferson south to Main, Main east to Alexandria, Alexandria north to
Thompson. That, pre-1929, the date of the ordinance.

WCRy was, of course, not alone in Latrobe. There was the West Penn,
or a predecessor. Thier track came north on Ligonier to someplace,
went west one block to Jefferson, then south on Jefferson to the
block between Weldon (two blocks south of Main) and Chestnut (3
blocks) and into the car house.

By the time I was around, the car house had become a maintenance
garage for linemen's trucks, but rails were still visible in the
paved forecourt of the garage. There were also distinct ripples in
the center of Jefferson St in the blocks between Main and the Wets
Penn garage. As time passed, the ripples became a washboard as the
old ties rotted more, and eventually the borough excavated,
re-graded, and repaved center of the street.

I had been told that originally the West Penn turned off Ligonier on
to Depot, then off Depot on to Jefferson. Thus, if all I've said is
so, the WCRy and WPRy shared a track from the corner of Depot and
Ligonier west on Depot, south on Jefferson to Main. Ther, the WP went
on south to the car house, the WC went east on Main to (eventually)
Derry. All very tidy, but not consistent with the ordinance.

Could be then, that the original arrangement had WP on Ligonier north
as far as Thompson, there west on Thompson to Jefferson, south on
Jefferson to Depot, Main, and onward to the car house. That would
make the joint trackage 4 blocks from Thompson and Ligonier to Main
and Jefferson. Could be, pre-1929.

But wait. The WP would have avoided crossing, at Ligonier St, and
re-crossing, at Jefferson St, the PRR main line.

Well, no. The stone tablets in the overpasses say "1901", so by the
time there were street cars in Latrobe, there would not have been
grade crossings on Ligonier and Jefferson. Or am I a few years late
on the coming of street cars?

What I'm supposing is: WC comes in form the east on Thompson, WP
comes north on Ligonier. At the corner of Thompson and Ligonier, WP
swings left, WC goes straight, they both switch onto a track westward
on Thompson to Jefferson, turn left onto Jefferson, 3 blocks south on
Jefferson to s switch at Main and Jefferson, where WP goes striaght
for 2 1/2 more blocks on Jefferson to car house, WC turns left onto
Main, 2 blocks east truns left onto Alexander, 3 blocks north to
Thompson, turn right, switch onto WC track from Derry.

All this, pre-WW1, pre-1929. What happens in 1929? I don't know, but
sometime before WW2 the WP built a new car house on Ligonier, beside
the creek, across the street from the brewery. They then had no need
for track anywhere other than Ligonier St. At that point, WC could
take over maintenance of the formerly joint track, or figure out a
way to do without.

I suggest that that is when WC laid one block of track from
Alexandria to Ligonier, installed a switch onto WP track, installed
another at Main and Ligonier, and began a route which went Derry
St/Thompson St to Alexandria, turn onto Alexandria (on the rails I
saw), Alexandria south to Depot, Depot west to Ligonier, Ligonier
south to Main, Main east to Alexandria, Alexandria north to Depot
thus closing the loop. WC thus reduced their track maintenance by 4
blocks.

Everything following "...does not jibe with the ordinance..." is
speculation, and the paragraph preceding that may well be someone
else's speculation, but it's the only way I can fit everything into
one picture. I admit that I could check some of those dates myself,
but the necessary references disappeared into the Dreaded Basement a
couple years ago. (I may live long enough to find them if I start
right now).



=====
Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob


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