[PRCo] Re: I was in USA!

[Fred Schneider]

Doesn't matter how idealistic the founding fathers may have been.  Shit happens.

"James B. Holland" wrote:

> Our govt. was founded on the Checks and Balances system with a
> Legislative, Exec, and Judicial branches of govt. Because the Founding
> Fathers recognized that the lowest common denominator in the Govt.
> Equation  --  PEOPLE  --  can misuse power // authority // etc.
> Govt. was Not Founded for the reasons you listed  --  what you mention
> is strictly observations on how People misuse this power and look for
> loop holes to get around laws meant to protect freedoms.       There is
> a Big Difference in the Founding of Govt. and its execution.
>
> It is  NOT  any different in private enterprize  --  I have spent
> 28+Years as Public Servant (add 4+ years of military) for total of
> 32+Years Public Servant, 12-Years Private Enterprize.       The lowest
> common denominator in business is  People again and  People  look for
> ways to get around the laws  --  Just As  YOU  and  I  look for
> loopholes in the tax laws.
>
> Just The Fact that we have Laws To Protect reveals there is someone to
> Protect Against.
>
> We have laws to prevent monopolies  --  Human People Greed.
>
> We have patent laws to prevent inventions from being stolen / copied /
> otherwise abused.
>
> Unions formed because of greed // BAD  Management.
>
> The List goes On, and On and On.................
>
> Again, the System is not necessarily bad, Our Govt. was Not Formed For
> the Purposes You Listed Below, and The Lowest Common Denominator in any
> // all systems is  PEOPLE  and the individual and collective
> righteousness of People is Filthy Rags  --  this is where we need to
> work to correct any problems  --  Public, Private  --  and everything
> and anything in between.
>
> Jim__Holland
>
> Fred Schneider wrote:
>
> >You're absolutely right Jim.  And of course what I observed in 36 years of government
> >service was also totally incorrect.
> >
> >"James B. Holland" wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> >>Your assessment of  *Government__Operated__Agencies*  is  NOthing more
> >>than personal opinion // conclusions;  I-F  it was really that bad, then
> >>the USA would have been down and out Very Long Ago.       """Everybody
> >>knows it's this way"""   is the best evidence to support such
> >>accusations and that would absolutely never ever hold up in court.
> >>
> >>Transit Agencies were on a downhill slide starting in the 1920s and that
> >>slide greatly accelerated post WW2 with Very Wide Spread auto
> >>usage.       Transit agencies were struggling but the thought of the day
> >>in the 1940s and 1950s was that Private Transit Agencies were not able
> >>to make it work so it was necessary to take them public  --  into govt.
> >>sector.       AND__Today  the cry is:   govt. transit agencies don't
> >>work  --  Privatize__Them!
> >>
> >>What people fail to realize is that it is  NOT  the system  --  it is
> >>the people behind the system.       A case in Point  --  How Many Times
> >>Have We Heard That:       """Money Is The Root Of All Evil?"""
> >>
> >>WRONG!!!!!!!       The above is a misquote  --  it is the  LOVE  of
> >>money that is the root of all evil  --  it is human altitude toward
> >>money that is evil  --  Not Money Itself.       Nothing Inherently Evil
> >>in Private Enterprize, Socialism, and many other forms of society  --
> >>it is just the people behind the same that make it work // fail.
> >>
> >>And to really level the playing field, It Is Written that all our
> >>righteousness [goodness] is like filthy rags  --  and the word
> >>translated  *rags*  is  *Menstrual__rags*  in the original
> >>language.       Humans measure goodness relative to one another so in
> >>reality, some may not be  *As__Bad__As*  others but the human condition
> >>is still desperately wanting.       It is Not Just The Politicians  --
> >>all are subject to the same temptations  --  put any one of us in there
> >>and watch what happens over time.
> >>
> >>Remember  --  in the USA the govt. is:::::::
> >>
> >>""".......Of__The__People.......
> >>
> >>By__The__People.......
> >>
> >>For__The__People."""
> >>
> >>The People Are The Govt  --  The People Are The Problem.
> >>
> >>Jim__Holland
> >>
> >>Fred Schneider wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>>I think you are comparing private enterprise to a government authority.  This is
> >>>unfair in this instance because there is no commonality between the two just
> >>>because they are in the United States.   You should not compare the U. S. to the
> >>>Czech Republic; you need to compare private and government businesses in the U.
> >>>S. without any regard whatsoever to how something is done in Europe.  U. S.
> >>>governmental transit agencies also behave very differently from those in Europe.
> >>>Private corporations borrowed money (stocks, bonds) to build a line, and
> >>>hopefully earned enough money by operating that line to cover all operating
> >>>expenses and to pay back all the loans.  It did not, in actuality, work that
> >>>way.  The totals for all the companies in Pennsylvania showed they had  enough
> >>>money at the end of the year to pay bills on hand at the end of the year in only
> >>>four of the fifty-one years from 1900 to 1950.  But they were at least set up
> >>>with the idea that they would pay their bills.  And they either controlled their
> >>>expenses (labor, materials, interest, capital repayments, insurance, taxes and
> >>>so forth) or they went out of business.  And one way you controlled costs was by
> >>>not fixing things that didn't show.  You also didn't fix things on cars that you
> >>>planned to retire.  And by the time 1138 was retired, business was declining
> >>>rapidly enough that the railways company had a surplus of PCC cars and could ill
> >>>afford to waste money on any of the older ones.  We knew they were rusted then.
> >>>So did the railways company.  And Pullman Standard came in to Pittsburgh in the
> >>>early 1960s to assess a proposal to make double-end PCCs for emergencies; my
> >>>friend with the P-S told me then that only the 1700s were good enough to invest
> >>>money into and then they were only marginally good enough.
> >>>
> >>>Government operated agencies exist for the benefit neither of the governed nor
> >>>the users but to provide jobs for important government people and to provide a
> >>>conduit through which money is moved to support those people more deserving of
> >>>it than you or I.  It is not important if the people in the shops are working or
> >>>are not working.  What is important is that they or their union contribute money
> >>>to the politicians' reelection funds, that the equipment builders and other
> >>>contractors also contribute money.  It is important to the local politicians
> >>>that they control this huge agency that buys labor and materials and issues
> >>>contracts to consultants, car rebuilders, track rebuilders, and so forth in
> >>>order that some of that money might come back to the elected officials.  It is
> >>>not called a bribe.  It is called a contribution to the reelection campaign.
> >>>
> >>>One person on another list opined today that MBTA in Boston does not want to
> >>>have anything photographed because it might show someone doing nothing.  And he
> >>>went on to relate an incident during his tenure when a mechanic at Mattapan came
> >>>to work drunk, watched television all day while he continued to drink.  His
> >>>successor came in that afternoon and found that he had to repair five dead PCCs
> >>>in time for the evening rush.  He got a hammer and broke up the television set.
> >>>The incident turned into a fist fight.  Both were fired.  Then the governor of
> >>>the Commonwealth of Massachusetts order the MBTA to reinstate both to their jobs
> >>>(places to sit and collect money?).  Just maybe the order happened because the
> >>>transport workers union had passed a half million dollars into the governor's
> >>>reelection fund?  That was the suggestion I read today.  In Boston, the union
> >>>and the politicos run the show.  Obviously it wasn't the public or they would
> >>>not have gotten away with shutting down all the train service to the north and
> >>>all subway service to North Station last week during the Democratic convention,
> >>>and then running special trains from North Station and the end of the convention
> >>>each night.
> >>>
> >>>Virtually all of the major government owned transit authorities in the United
> >>>States were formed with in a very short time span in the late 1960s and early
> >>>1970s.  It probably would not have happened if government had to make money.
> >>>But I feel that this happened as fast as it did simply because the politicians
> >>>were totally aware of the value of the money they would control and what it
> >>>would buy them.
> >>>
> >>>The private and government systems are totally different ... one had to make
> >>>money to survive and the government agencies have the right to pick our pockets
> >>>to pay the people who do nothing.
> >>>
> >>>And do the workers care as you suggested?  My feeling is that about 9 workers
> >>>out of 10 do not care about their jobs.  Only about one out of ten like what
> >>>they are doing, and would be happy to be there even without the money.  But in
> >>>the case of the Adtranz people at Elmira who worked on PRC 1138 and 1711 and PTC
> >>>2711, they were the good people that Adtranz wanted to maintain in case they
> >>>were able to win the next bid.  The others were gone and the plant was mostly
> >>>empty.   I remember taking a load of truck parts for 1138 up to Elmira and being
> >>>shown around.  I was incredibly impressed by the people who were doing the body
> >>>work ... one of those men was welding new steel into 1138, grinding down the
> >>>welds, and finishing it to a level of perfection unheard of for streetcar work.
> >>>Certainly PRC could not have invested that time.  I found out that he had
> >>>previously worked in an autobody repair shop.  And if I was lucky enough to have
> >>>a 1930 Packard auto needing restoration, I would want him to do it.  I'm pretty
> >>>sure they [Adtranz]  either bid or were considering a bid on the 18 rebuilt cars
> >>>for SEPTA.  However, that plant was closed when Bombardier acquired Adtranz.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>Boris Cefer wrote:
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>My experience says that no supervision is absolute. In addition, all people
> >>>>like to make their job easier; some more, some less. Some even don't care
> >>>>about results of their job. They don't care if something is done precisely
> >>>>and thoroughly, or it is botched. I think that workmanship almost
> >>>>disappeared from this world and only hobbyists dispose it. All is only job.
> >>>>
> >>>>I failed to understand Economics 101. OK. But I expected that working morals
> >>>>has to be better in the USA than here because you seem to have better
> >>>>economical results as a whole country.
> >>>>I was again wrong. At shops in Philadelphia I didn't see many people
> >>>>working, they were mostly sitting and talking about what they will do after
> >>>>the shift ends in hour.
> >>>>
> >>>>----- Original Message -----
> >>>>From: "Fred Schneider"
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>Your opinion is wrong.  They [Adtranz] did what they were told to do,
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>under supervision from PTM.  I did not use the world asbestos ... you did.
> >>>>But that was the issue.  Asbestos presents legal issues and its presence
> >>>>causes the workers to follow legal and very expensive requirements for its
> >>>>removal,, regardless of your opinion.   We are dealing with United States
> >>>>and New York State and Pennsylvania health and safety laws.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>To make profits as high as possible is correct as far as you have taken it
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>... more correct would be to say to make any profit at all.  The money
> >>>>simply wasn't there to make cars look nice.  The city made every effort
> >>>>possible to control Pittsburgh Railways' income and in the 1960s to make
> >>>>them loose money so that the county could condemn the private company at a
> >>>>lower cost.   I think you fail to understand Economics 101 as it applies to
> >>>>business in a free world economy.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >