[PRCo] Re: Trolleyville

Wed Jun 23 08:33:47 EDT 2004

Hi Bob

Governments, mostly state and local, have been holding the line on fares 
since 1960s in Pennsylvania.  It could be argued earlier, but this is for 
direct subsidy/grant payments out of taxes collected.  The federal 
contribution is primarily on the capital side, which would indirectly affect 
fares.

As for a Pittsburgh Railways operating privately today, probably would be 
not much more then peak hour commuter buses at a $5+ fare.  Probably also 
commuter buses chartered for work trips, and PRC would probably try to 
survive by getting into school bus and intercity charter business.  More 
likely, the independent private bus companies, with lower wage rates, would 
have driven Pittsburgh Railways out of business long ago.  Weekends, 
mid-day, evening service?  Not likely.  Continued rail operations?  Forget 
it.  It was doomed under private business.

Why?  Platform costs.  What productivity improvements have occurred since 
the elimination of conductors in the 1920s/30s????

The automobile is a tough competitor - for both price (at the margin) and 
convenience.

At least that's my two cents worth - (not adjusted for inflation).

I'd like to hear Harold's viewpoint.  He probably has best insight where 
private transit business was headed in 1950s/60s without direct government 
support.  I just see it on the fringe from a later era.

John

>From: "Dietrich, Robert J." <Robert.Dietrich at unisys.com>
>Reply-To: pittsburgh-railways at dementia.org
>To: <pittsburgh-railways at dementia.org>
>Subject: [PRCo] Re: Trolleyville
>Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2004 07:45:30 -0400
>
>We are forgetting one difference between now and 1904.  The governments
>have taken over and everything is subsidized.  So I'll open up another
>question - should the government operations hold the line on fares or
>ARE they already holding the line.  What would the private Pittsburgh
>Railway Company be charging now?
>
>Bob
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: pittsburgh-railways-bounce at lists.dementia.org
>[mailto:pittsburgh-railways-bounce at lists.dementia.org] On Behalf Of Fred
>Schneider
>Sent: Tuesday, June 22, 2004 11:54 AM
>To: pittsburgh-railways at dementia.org
>Subject: [PRCo] Re: Trolleyville
>
>I know.  And they didn't necessarily agree with the nickle either in
>1900.  When you made $1.75 a day in 1900, spending 80 cents to take your
>wife and kids into downtown to shop on Friday evening was expensive.
>But if the "gov'mt paid" 3 or 4 cents of the fare in 1900, it would
>still have been pocket change.
>
>Harold Geissenheimer wrote:
>
> > Greetings
> > Poor or old people would not agree with Fred.
> >
> > Harold
> >
> > Fred Schneider wrote:
> >
> > >Correct me if I'm wrong but $1.50 today is pretty close to normal.
>Now what would be the fare we simply multiplied the nickle in 1900 by an
>inflationary index for 104 years?  About $5.40.  What is the true cost
>of the $1.50 ride today ... well assuming that the average rider pays
>about 30% of the operating costs (and taxes cover the other 70%), then
>the operating costs come to $5.00 per passenger (with the other $3.50
>coming out of income tax).  But we are still
> > >missing 1) the capital costs, 2) the federal, state and local taxes
>levied against the private companies, and 3) the profits they wanted to
>make.  Those omissions will probably adjust the cost of service today up
>to about $7.00 per rider.  So what is the difference between the $5.40
>and $7.00 or more?  The affect of having so many fewer passengers on a
>vehicle today, particularly in the smaller cities.
> > >
> > >Therefore I don't see that $1.50 is great enough to have any affect
>on who rides.  Its pocket change.  Coke machine change.
> > >
> > >hrbran99 at adelphia.net wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >>Oddly enough, for a large city system, Greater Cleveland Regional
>Transit Authority (RTA) does not have much of a problem with graffiti.
>Any which does appear in the buses, cars and trains is cleaned up asap.
>Then too, RTA does demand the fare (1.50 one-way/no transfers) from
>everyone. This keeps the @$$es off the public tansit. They would rather
>walk than pay a $155.00 court summons for failure to pay transit fare.
>Our transit police are very efficient also.
> > >>
> > >>Too bad Pittsburgh wasn't doing that back in 1975 when I got sucker
>punched in the right eye over a fare.
> > >>
> > >>HrB
> > >>============================================================
> > >>From: <ktjosephson at earthlink.net>
> > >>Date: 2004/06/20 Sun PM 10:53:43 EDT
> > >>To: <pittsburgh-railways at dementia.org>
> > >>Subject: [PRCo] Re: Trolleyville
> > >>
> > >>Fred Schneider wrote:
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>>Running antiques on the street is a scary proposition.  I'm worried
>about
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>the
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>>Pittsburgh high floor  ... not about those CA&E hulks.
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>I believe you have worn out your welcome in Chicago, Fred. ;-)
> > >>
> > >>Seriously, my concern is that a number of young people are so deeply
> > >>entrenched in the "graffiti culture" that they will carve, paint and
>mark up
> > >>the cars' interiors beyond recognition.
> > >>
> > >>I noticed modern style gang tagging scratched into some of the
>seatbacks in
> > >>one of OERM's PCCs (I believe it was LARy 3100) a few years ago. I
>figured
> > >>it was the moronic loser children or young gang banging parents of
>those
> > >>moronic loser children visiting the museum from L.A. or San
>Bernadino.
> > >>Charlie Brown (of Long Beach Transit fame) informed me that the
>mothers of
> > >>the twerps living in the apartments that have encroached upon the
>land
> > >>surrounding the museum have been known to give the little darlings
>money and
> > >>send them off for a "train ride" so they can have some private time
>with
> > >>"Uncle Whoever" is living with them that week.
> > >>
> > >>K.
> > >>
> > >>============================================================
> > >>
> > >>
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
>
>
>
>

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